CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Project_Mars]

I think I figured out what has me annoyed on Water Veil. Burns are a big problem to CAP but both sides dislike getting burnt for different reasons. DD hates burns mostly because it takes a huge hit to its attack, but otherwise shouldn't cate too much about the extra damage when it should have enough firepower to do what it needs to do in 3 - 5 turns anyways. CM on the other hand would want to stick around for awhile, therefore the extra damage would diminish its effectiveness by whittling down its HP. My issue with Water Veil is mostly that it is a generic solution to a pokemon that would run two unique types of sets, rather than trying to help differentiate both sets further. Because of that, I think Guts would be fantastic here, since it would make burning a DD set, which would be less likely to run moves to deal with burns than the CM set(s), extremely risky. So my favorite abilities are Guts, Oblivious, and Shield Dust.

 

[P3DS]

My issue with Water Veil is mostly that it is a generic solution to a pokemon that would run two unique types of sets, rather than trying to help differentiate both sets further.

Well said. This is how I feel with water veil too. With water veil, we lose a lot of potential with the CAP. I truly believe that water veil this early on would be a mistake. I also would like to pick up on what capefeather said about Sheer Force: if we don't pick it now, it will be hard for it to be picked at a later stage, as stats and some move options will already have been discussed. Water Veil is our safest option, and satisfies the burn negation... But I feel it is too safe for the primary ability. If it is picked as primary, and we have a nice stat distribution, we lock ourselves out of a ton of other options later on, such as abilities that give power boosts and stuff like storm drain/sap sipper. Picking Water Veil now would be a huge mistake, however, I'm not for completely ruling it out for a latter ability.

I feel the danger with burns is too hyped up about. Gyarados is big and doesn't care much for the burns, while slowbro and friends take toxic and other status too. Looking at the current OU tier list, there are 7 water types in OU, 4 of which would use scald in their regular sets. Of the 4, keldeo is most likely going to aim with sacred sword, a lot of starmie do have thunderbolt, manaphy usually have energy ball, and mega slowbro ill probably scald away. So, in total, we have 2 pokemon who we will probably take a STAB scald from. And at a 30% chance, it isn't the big picture on the board.

In regards to other means, other fire moves are either as likely, or less to burn our CAP. Will-o-wisp wise, we have Charizards, gengar, gardevoir (Rarely though), heatran, mew, rotom-w, sableye and talonflame. Heatran and talonflame ill not want to take strong STAB water type moves, mega charizard-x is the standard one having WoW, and doesn't like the water STABs, though does have some power over the CAP if not boosted. Gengar is frail, and will fall to a well placed hit, while gardevoir have WoW occasionally. Of the rest, WoW mew is built as a stall breaker, so will cause us trouble anyway, as taunt wrecks us, while rotom just T-bolts us if we haven't set up much. Sableye is just a pain for us to deal with anyway.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Speaking from an objective perspective. I've noticed lot of people are concerned that an ability may give too much focus/bias to one particular set.

I understand where they're coming from, but saying that I don't think a biased ability will have any impact on the stages of the rest of this CAP. We can have up to three potential abilities anyway. If it truly mattered then surely we'd decide ALL abilities at this point, especially in creating dual functioned pokemon like this.

Hypothetically speaking, in a toss up between Guts and Water veil, DD is taking Guts every single time and CM will take Water Veil every single time. It doesn't matter which one is this CAPs 'primary ability', that's just unnecessary semantics.

So guts is a very legitimate option to slate in my opinion

 

[tehy]

But it DOES make one side far more powerful; of course we could mitigate that with lowered physical Attack, but an ability like Guts undeniably skews our CAP.

Also, Guts specifically is another Hell No, seeing as activation of a status orb gives the set away immediately (status orb would obvious be far and away the best physical set, no matter what we try to do a 50% boost is just too enciting), so that means we'd need a death switch in order to even bluff correctly (and a death switch implies it's special, too)

 

[Burt Racecar]

I totally disagree that it makes one side more powerful. That boost comes with a big cost of losing HP every turn, especially if its a status orb set.

Looking at the biggest guts user in OU, Conkeldurr, who most of the time slaps on an AV in conjunction with Guts. Purely so it can can switch into scalds and WoWs with impunity. And that's really all we need this CAP to aim for. While Conk does have a status orb set I've rarely seen it compared to the other options.
I would definitely not put it under a 'hell no' category, because it's really not as generically good as magic bounce or unaware are in terms of this CAP. Would CAP use a flame orb if it also has to set up? That's potentially two ticks of HP lost before an attack is even made.

Guts is not such a big deal at all.

 

[P3DS]

I totally disagree that it makes one side more powerful. That boost comes with a big cost of losing HP every turn, especially if its a status orb set.

Looking at the biggest guts user in OU, Conkeldurr, who most of the time slaps on an AV in conjunction with Guts. Purely so it can can switch into scalds and WoWs with impunity. And that's really all we need this CAP to aim for. While Conk does have a status orb set I've rarely seen it compared to the other options.
I would definitely not put it under a 'hell no' category, because it's really not as generically good as magic bounce or unaware are in terms of this CAP. Would CAP use a flame orb if it also has to set up? That's potentially two ticks of HP lost before an attack is even made.

Guts is not such a big deal at all.

This is true. And I have seen a lot of conkeldurr that run the orb lose a turn as they protect, reducing the number of move slots available. I would love to see an ability other than water veil as primary. As taunt is our biggest threat, I feel that oblivious is a nice option.

 

[tehy]

I totally disagree that it makes one side more powerful. That boost comes with a big cost of losing HP every turn, especially if its a status orb set.

Looking at the biggest guts user in OU, Conkeldurr, who most of the time slaps on an AV in conjunction with Guts. Purely so it can can switch into scalds and WoWs with impunity. And that's really all we need this CAP to aim for. While Conk does have a status orb set I've rarely seen it compared to the other options.
I would definitely not put it under a 'hell no' category, because it's really not as generically good as magic bounce or unaware are in terms of this CAP. Would CAP use a flame orb if it also has to set up? That's potentially two ticks of HP lost before an attack is even made.

Guts is not such a big deal at all.

Actually, it slaps on an AV because it's not a good sweeper and it prefers to be a bulky pivot. When it wants to go offensive, it either runs Sheer Force LO (if we gave our CAP Sheer Force, i agree it might run Sheer Force LO instead of Guts Flame Orb) or, well, Guts Flame Orb. Alternately, Leftovers Bulk Up.

Seeing as our CAP isn't really a bulky pivot, I have a feeling it'd run Guts Flame Orb. For reference, a list of Pokemon with Guts:

tehy!usage1337 (Pokemon) items 01:20TIBot:

Rattata: Life Orb 84.965% | Choice Scarf 3.955% | Focus Sash 3.373% | Flame Orb 3.221% | Other 4.487%

Raticate: Flame Orb 49.855% | Choice Scarf 29.388% | Toxic Orb 19.639% | Other 1.119%

Rattata and Raticate have been gifted with a second excellent ability in Hustle, so it's not surprising that they aren't always abusing Guts. Still, 1 out of 2 ain't bad.

Machop : Choice Scarf 83.782% | Focus Sash 6.991% | Eviolite 5.471% | Other 3.755%

Machoke : Eviolite 74.242% | Choice Band 25.251% | Other 0.507%

Machamp : Assault Vest 71.184% | Choice Band 15.117% | Choice Scarf 2.949% | Lum Berry 2.757% | Leftovers 2.322% | Life Orb 1.688% | Other 3.983%

When you have a slow, bulky Pokemon with a lot of Attack, all-out sweeping isn't necessarily your goal-either scarf up, or bulk up. When you've also got access to No Guard Dynamicpunch...ride that train all the way to the station, baby! Even though Machoke and to a lesser extent Machamp use Guts quite a bit (49% machoke, 24% machamp), they're still too slow to run away with it, so might as well bulk it out instead.

Tyrogue:

Go away.

Heracross: Choice Band 45.604% | Choice Scarf 23.298% | Toxic Orb 10.424% | Flame Orb 8.576% | Leftovers 7.380% | Other 4.718%

As a Pokemon who lacks a speed-boosting move, Heracross reasonably prefers to hit hard off the bat and maintain bulk, or just go fast at the expense of power. However, status orbs get a reasonable amount of play on it.

Ursaring: Toxic Orb 93.876% | Flame Orb 5.481% | Other 0.643%

As a slow somewhat bulky and strong mon, it's split 50/50 between Quick Feet and Guts (Quick Feet 51.702% | Guts 48.298%). Again, excellent ability competition but you definitely see a lot of Guts going down.

Larvitar: Berry Juice 42.138% | Flame Orb 28.613% | Eviolite 27.047% | Other 2.202%

To be fair, Berry Juice and Eviolite are amazing items, even on an offensive mon like Larvitar often is. It's also a Fletchling check, so it behooves most players to keep it alive.


Taillow: Guts 66.761% | Scrappy 33.239%

Swellow: Guts 72.807% | Scrappy 27.193%

Before they learned Boomburst, that was more like 100%. Scrappy Boomburst is a monstrous tool, mind you, but if you want a physically offensive Taillow / Swellow, you use a status orb. (Swellow's items:Toxic Orb 54.002% | Choice Specs 25.167% | Flame Orb 18.102%)

Makuhita: Makuhita is #200 usage in LC, and doesn't even have 1337 item stats.

Hariyama: Assault Vest 90.335% | Toxic Orb 3.125% | Flame Orb 2.470% | Other 4.070%

So either 'bulky pivot' or 'status orb'

Timburr: Eviolite 99.482%

Gurdurr: Eviolite 99.523%

Conkeldurr: Assault Vest 86.433% | Life Orb 6.120% | Leftovers 3.900% | Other 3.547%

K, so the trio prefer bulk to power, not surprising given their terrible Speed stats making them so easy to revenge kill. Conkeldurr's Leftovers usage is most interesting since it outstrips status orb usage, and also did in B / W; however, such a slow Pokemon preferring defensive setup to all-out offensive setup that wears him down is, again, not that surprising.

Throh: Assault Vest 48.559% | Leftovers 33.761% | Chesto Berry 16.182% | Other 1.498%

bulky slow fighter (who checks most dominant offensive threat in tier) chooses bulk > power, been there done that

Flareon: Leftovers 38.326% | Choice Band 36.229% | Toxic Orb 13.514% | Assault Vest 4.491% | Choice Scarf 2.391% | Life Orb 2.092%

This is a bit more interesting; leftovers is almost certainly defensive Flash Fire. However, Choice Band Flash Fire Flare Blitzes are really strong, and keeping Flash Fire lets it defensively check Fire-types much better; it also keeps it from getting worn down too fast- Stealth Rock + Recoil is bad enough without status damage (and without damage from resisted Fire-type attacks), and Flareon has very little notable coverage anyhow, outside of Facade, so being Choice-locked isn't a huge deal. We do still see some respectable Guts usage. Also, Flareon is still really slow and wants as much bulk as it can get

Shinx: #186 in LC. Choice Scarf 50.838% | Toxic Orb 21.024% | Eviolite 14.486% | Berry Juice 6.000% | Magnet 3.948% | Other 3.703%

Luxio: No 1337 data found, and #355 in PU usage. So yea, ignoring that.

Luxray: Toxic Orb 25.186% | Assault Vest 20.307% | Choice Scarf 17.451% | Choice Band 11.902% | Leftovers 9.728% | Flame Orb 7.997% | Life Orb 3.408% | Other 4.021%

Shinx is slow and wants to be non-slow, or bulky since it's slow, still a fair bit of Orb usage however.

Luxray Orbs more than anything, wants to be non-slow or bulky, and has access to the excellent Intimidate.

As we've seen, Pokemon don't use status orb sets because they've got excellent other options or lack speed. As a Dragon Dancer, our CAP should be capable of becoming faster than anything but swift Megas or scarfers, and might outspeed them, too. It's also resistant to a lot of priority. If we were to give it some great other option for an ability, it might use that instead, but that just risks creating 3 sets:Calm Mind, Dragon Dance Guts Orb, and Dragon Dance (Adaptability / Sheer Force / Download / something else really good). In lieu of that, however, it's highly probable that our CAP would choose to prioritize power (and a neat status immunity alongside it) over some other option (water veil won't stop Prankster Thundurus and Klefki from ruining his fun, no sirree. And Shed Skin will only do it if you get lucky.)

Of course, as I explained, the reason that it's Hell no is not the overall power; rather, it's just that a Status Orb set gives away which set it is when you switch in, making it really hard to bluff different sets.

 

[trc]

i think this has run its course. i considered every possibility, please don't assume i didn't.

final slate is:

• Water Veil
• Oblivious
• Water Absorb
• Shield Dust

water veil was chosen for reasons detailed throughout the thread by a number of posters. it fits the cap very well as it aids both sets in their role and fits well with the typing. by virtue if its typing, cap 20 should be able to easily setup on most water-type pokemon barring that 30% chance for them to cripple it with a burn which hinders both sets (the cm set is far more pressured in its setup and finds it easier to be 2hkoed on the physical side, while also forcing it to recover more often, while the dd set's power is significantly cut by a burn). water veil aids us in allowing cap 20 to setup on these pokemon without the fear of this burn, something it should be able to do without scald being a thing anyway due to its typing. water veil also helps against other pokemon which burn cap 20 outside of scald, such as mew and mega sableye, and rotom-w even, if cap 20 has boosted with cm already.

oblivious is helpful because obviously setup sweepers are unable to setup with taunt, and one of the biggest issues with slow cm sweepers is how prone they are to taunt. however this does have some drawbacks in that the most common taunt users can either now burn it without water veil (mew, heatran) or do a lot of damage to it while it's trying to setup (mega gardevoir, thundurus).

water absorb allows cap 20 to not be damaged by scald in addition to being benefited by mono-cm sweepers such as suicune and mega slowbro, although it is still prone to non-scald burns.

shield dust is kinda cool. it can't be burned by scald, only by non-scald burns, like water absorb, but it also prevents dumb spa / spd drops from annoying pokemon trying to bust through cm cap 20. i kind of like shield dust although its effects are quite situational, it depends on the pokemon facing. being able to fully setup on jirachi with body slam is really cool though.

 

[nyttyn]

Since TRC already went over the options on the slate and I have no objections to it, I'll just quickly go over all the other abilities, and explain why they did not make the slate.

also a PSA from the TL, please remember that discussion steps are for discussion. as redundant as that sounds, there was a lot of bandwagoning for Water Veil, and while it's not bad to support a option, please remember to at least discuss other options in the future.

Flare Boost - Extremely distracting, doesn't actually help us win against burns on the DD set, and doesn't particularly help the CM set due to it not really addressing the issue of "being burned makes it way easier to kill."
Guts - Just as distracting, only good for the Dragon Dance set, and franky too good of an ability, seeing as how CAP20 can just slap a Flame Orb on and enjoy both immunity to Thunder Wave as well as nearly double the power of a Life Orb.
Hydration - Too situational and rain's pretty meh to be reliant upon for a set-up sweeper without something like swift swim.
Natural Cure - forces CAP20 out, and as a sweeper, you don't want to be forced out since you tend to commit and rarely get more than one or two chances to sweep.
Shed Skin - you don't want to rely on a 1 in 3 RNG chance as a sweeper. as mentioned in the thread, severe reliability issues.
Suction Cups - roar isn't really that common, Dragon Dance really doesn't care, situational, we have other issues with phazers/already beat them.
Liquid Ooze - this is just bad.
Pressure - this beats mega bro and that's about it. Way too narrow.
Marvel Scale - Still cripples the Dragon Dance set, arguably way too good for the Calm Mind set, +50% defense is no joke.
Clear Body - too situational, nobody really cared.
Filter / Tinted Lens / Prankster/ Magic Bounce / Magic Guard / Sheer Force - all of these are too powerful and do not perform any roles that justify their inclusion on CAP20.
Unaware - while this falls into the above camp, I'd just like to isolate this one to bring up the fact that Quagsire, an otherwise extremely lackluster pokemon, actually saw significant use both last gen and some niche use this gen simply because it has Unaware. and CAP20 is almost certainly way better than quagsire in the stat and movepool department.
Mold Breaker - nothing good in OU even has water immunity.
Lightningrod / Levitate / Sap Sipper - these just blatantly ignore the checks / counters list.
Sticky Hold - trick is not a thing anymore, kind of cool against knock off i guess but knock off will chunk CAP20 anyways so double edged sword, too niche.
Quick Feet - this doesn't help at all, for burns calm mind set wont be running speed investment and dragon dance gets crippled regardless, and 25% chance to paralyze is still killer for paralysis.
Synchronize - if we're burned we lose anyways, kind of a nice "haha screw you" but that's not really worth the ability slot.

With that all said, and CAP20 shaping up to be a pretty Pristine War Machine, let's head onto the polls.