np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

[Thisbemyalt]

I feel like Glaciate opens up other Pokemon to more effectively check Victini if it's accounting for Salamence and Tyrantrum. Dual physical STAB + Glaciate leaves you with the decision between Bolt Strike, Energy Ball, Thunder, Psychic, and U-turn, All of which leave Victini's coverage open. If you opt for U-turn for momentum, suddenly Suicune uses you as set-up fodder. If you opt to cover Suicune with Thunder or Bolt Strike, now Swampert threatens you out. Might not be terribly efficient to run Mega Swampert's Rain Dance set given you could get hit by Glaciate, but that won't hurt much and he's still forced out. Pretty much anything besides Thunder or Psychic leaves you vulnerable to Arcanine, but if you do run Psychic (doubling up on coverage) Houndoom uses you as set-up fodder, with Victini's best option being Glaciate spam, which isn't safe given Houndoom can just KO with Dark Pulse and come back later.

I'm not saying Victini isn't dangerous or that V-create isn't obnoxious or that I want it back in the tier (god knows I was happy when it left), but new blood in the tier has made it less kind to Victini. Patrick1088, you make a good point in that they're really only two new checks, but I think they're a tipping point in forcing Victini's hand in terms of coverage and what it can safely get away with now.

Shout outs to Thisbemyalt for "Imo we should just test gatr it is ridiculous in this tier I know people are against this but damn it is just such a damn monster." Haven't seen an argument so tightly sealed since "Are SMOGON ruining the METAGAME?"

Alright that was pretty funny lmfao but on a serious note here are some quick reasons I think gatr is broken.
1. No viable counters are available to UU the only one I know of that is usable is Poliwrath who overall is really not that good
2. It can absolutely shred both stall and offense depending on the set, stall tends to fold to SD while HO is hit very hard by DD
3. Unlike many setup sweepers Gatr actually has great natural bulk meaning it can take priority and even hits from mons it won't OHKO once setup

Of course I could elaborate more on these points I think most people here, especially those on VR, know what gatr can do I believe most of the problem with it being suspected is that many view these points as not enough to warrant a suspect. However with such a quick rush to A+ and hopefully S rank soon I think we should probably consider how good this mon really is I feel as if we are experiencing gatr the way we did serperior. Everyone dismissed it as the meta had not adapted yet but the fact is gatr is outrageously good and we really do need to look at it more in depth.

 

[Patrick1088]

Lord of Bays i think the issue is that Victini can pick what it doesnt wall. On paper, Rhyperior and Houndoom should be fantastic counters, but can get beat by GK and Focus Blast. We established that VC spam was strong, but it was the high bp moves of Thunder, Bolt Strike, Psychic, Focus Blast, GK that completely put it over the edge. Yeah, it has to pick that last move, but it gets to pick what walls it. VC, Bolt Stike/ Thunder handle most of UU barring Rhyperior, Swampy, Tyrantrum Salamence, M-Amphy and maybe Hydre. Add in Psychic and u-turn and honestly almost every UU mon is almost cleanly 2hko with the exception of AV Snorlax (252 Def EVs).

The best you can do is hopefully predict correctly (good luck) or have multiple Tini checks (Physicall Defensive M-Amphy + Scarf Hydre probably the least restricting).

But, if we don't do the Smeargle retest (compled or not), I am pretty happy with the tier right now overall. There really isnt anything too restricting and the meta is far from stale IMO. You have a tier where many mons are viable and I think this is the closest to 100% healthy that we have been since XY.

 

[Schpoonman]

I guess I'm seeing a different side to the "Victini picks what walls it" dilemma. There are enough fantastic threats in UU at this point (and UU is extremely balanced, Maero's huge usage is the only real problem child in my book, if you could call it that) that Victini picking the "wrong" Pokemon to lose to means you can lose the game. For example, if your opponent (for whatever reason) picks Salamence as a Pokemon Victini doesn't need to cover, you can switch in, Dragon Dance, and sweep.

Hydreigon is also a Pokemon that picks what it wants to beat, but isn't on the same level. Maybe that's the speed disparity or lack of a move like V-create, but scouting does not a broken Pokemon make.

 

[MrAldo]

The problem with victini is that while there are certainly more threats that could take care of victini its extensive movepool provides it a plethora of tools and moves to take advantage of plenty of its checks or support the team into whatever the team needs to cover. It can destroy bulky waters with bolt strike and grass knot/energy ball, make defensive cores a liability by itself thanks to stupidly strong banded v-creates, having u-turn to provide momentum. Offensive trick room to be the bane of every offensive team in existence, dazzling gleam to lure hydreigon and salamence, Defensive sets with will-o-wisp or thunder wave to cripple offensive threats and so on.

To be honest, the "gets walled by something" aspect go out the window when you take the teambuilding aspect into consideration. Victini will be tailored to what the team needs to lure for a threat to sweep or for what it needs to beat. If victini IS your answer to bulky waters, then something is pretty wrong with your team. Victini makes teams better by just seeing it in team preview (like a LOT better). I honestly dont believe it will be a healthy addition to the tier.

 

[Patrick1088]

I guess I'm seeing a different side to the "Victini picks what walls it" dilemma. There are enough fantastic threats in UU at this point (and UU is extremely balanced, Maero's huge usage is the only real problem child in my book, if you could call it that) that Victini picking the "wrong" Pokemon to lose to means you can lose the game. For example, if your opponent (for whatever reason) picks Salamence as a Pokemon Victini doesn't need to cover, you can switch in, Dragon Dance, and sweep.

Hydreigon is also a Pokemon that picks what it wants to beat, but isn't on the same level. Maybe that's the speed disparity or lack of a move like V-create, but scouting does not a broken Pokemon make.

Tini has always had enough checks even back in BW, so i dont think top threats like M Absol, M Aero, Snorlax, Hydre, etc.. are lacking. It comes down to to the fact that the only way to get these mons in safely is after Tini nukes something, or you predict the resist correctly (i.e. Mega Aero to tank the VC, to easily KO with a revenge Pursuit for example). only other option is to have a great match up (i.e. scout Tini vs. Pursuit/ Sucker Punch Houndoom, Mega Aero Pursuit lead, Scarf Hydre, etc..

Even the top threats have to be wary on switching in due to the versatility of Tini. Its great when you have all these top threats, but when you mispredict (or opponent predicts correctly), your main threat just got destroyed and Tini can nuke your team at will.

The main difference between Hydre (id argue Infernape as well) and Tini is that it doesn't have the high BP coverage moves (several 120 BP moves with littlr draw back, not counting Tinis other STAB options like Fire Blast, Searing Shot, Psyshock, Psychic, Zen Headbutt, etc..).

Hydre is versatile with Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon, Iron Tail, u-turn, Fire blast, Superpower, but its coveragd moves result in dropped stats (superpower) or terrible to be locked into (Flash Cannon, Iron tail, Fire blast alone with bulky waters). LO is probably the best wallbreaker set, but even then some mons can switch in on a resisted hit (dark pulse for Shao, Infernape, Cobalion, Virizion, Heracross for example) and force it out. I think Hydre is a top threat but is manageable since its main STABS are resisted by a singld type forcing it to run at least onr coveragr move.

 

[Wanka]

In regards to victini here are just some of my thoughts. While yes the metagame has definately changed a whole heck of a lot since its retest and we do some more mons to help cover tini. The thing with tini is that tini can adapt to the uu metagame as well, it doesnt need to run the same old nuke band set that everyone feared or just all physical sets in general. In the event it were to come back in our meta currently I don't really see the band set being its best set. I can honestly see mixed e belt sets being really effective for the likes of fat mence and suicune or even mixed life orb sets. Not to say the choice band set isnt bad as it would probably still be extremely annoying to switch into as it is a literal nuke. Its kind of just the fact that you are never safe with tini and it can eat teams a live in so many ways. And yes you can pursuit trap it but that truly did not stop it from being broken back when it was retested as tini was indeed commonly pursuit trapped however, not every team will have a trapper and it forces aero to lose some of its good coverage its been running lately. Not to say pursuit aero is bad but, it really likes the coverage it can run.

 

[Sam]

lol we aren't retesting Victini in the foreseeable future

We (me and Hikari) really like UU right now and feel it's really balanced. The only reason we're considering Smeargle is it's something we can drop without causing too much of a metagame shift. That and, well, almost everything in BL is fairly broken in UU. We don't need to be testing anything, especially if the metagame is stable.

 

[Schpoonman]

Okay, okay. The point I was really trying to make is that Victini is a more defensible drop than Smeargle. SmearglePass is still massively broken while hazards isn't, but the only way we let hazards in but keep SmearglePass out is with a complex ban.

We all fought in the Weather Wars, we all know what Aldaron's Proposal did to OU.

If you aren't considering a complex ban, I'd love to hear why you think reintroducing SmearglePass wouldn't royally fuck up the tier.

EDIT: Oh. My bad.

 

[Sam]

I literally said we were considering it when I first brought it up.

 

[DaSpoofy]

I literally said we were considering it when I first brought it up.

The meta game will change eventually with the ou drops anyway right? Im not fighting for victini but one thing I like about pokemon is that it changes.

 

[Machi]

We all fought in the Weather Wars, we all know what Aldaron's Proposal did to OU.

Yeah well my gripe about complex bans right now that they are from my understanding a last resort not a 2nd best option. In which case I think it is fairly obvious Smeargle's strongest niche was passing the plethora of boosts it has available. I say this because his typing and stat distribution aren't as hard pressed in fulfilling the role, passing boosts don't always necessitate entering the field more than once (as we've seen with the current iteration).

The aim is to pass and sweep which is a one time deal for most cases, whereas hazard leads generally play cautiously until defogger/spinner is fully removed (especially if you are as frail as Smeargle). At least this is possible with Smeargle in so much that he has access to the strongest boosting moves QD/Geomancy/Shift Gear/etc.

The meta game will change eventually with the ou drops anyway right? Im not fighting for victini but one thing I like about pokemon is that it changes.

They'll cross the bridge when the drops happen, as it is easier to make an assessment about the drops when you're fairly certain what they are (assuming all the drops necessarily remain UU).

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I know this will be very controversial, but the only things in BL I can honestly see having little effect and dropping is weavile and venomoth. Weavile I believe discussion was already said awhile back.. but the controversial one which is venomoth I see 0 discussion on, and we never actually seen it's presence in UU since BW.

Now my understanding is that quiver pass on venomoth is just way too difficult to deal with in UU and turns teams very matchup based... however I'm looking at the viability rankings, searching for stuff venomoth can even switch into or setup on.. Everything in S-rank outspeeds or has rest-talk anyway, Venomoth cannot switch into anything in A+, and lower there are a few very viable infiltrators for the subsets such as crobat chandelure which prevent moth from setting up. Even prankster whimsicott can encore/taunt the moth.

IMHO venomoth is no more team match up based than say sticky web or gatr at the moment. The only pokemon to receive the passes that seem broken would be espeon, nido, and maybe suicune.. other than those I personally don't see the issue with the moth.

Again, I could be absolutely dead wrong as I've never seen it in practice in the UU metagame before, at all, iirc we never see it during the ORAS meta (which with aerodactyl, salamence, and crobat centralization, makes it difficult for the moth to even setup) and I wasn't around during the x/y uu meta.. BW I imagine is when the shit hit the fan with quiver dance, but the UU meta in BW was so much more different back then. For I all know maybe something with memento whimsicott+venomoth+espeon core would devastate the metagame, who knows.. again we haven't seen it. We even introduced volcarona back in the meta for a short period of time to see how that did... venomoth which is obviously inferior, didn't get the same treatment.

Hell, we might discover what the meta really needs is a baton pass clause, considering it's the main reason why three BL pokemon aren't in UU.. Just my 2 cents, personally I don't play UU that much so I my opinion is very biased, however I just wanted to see some discussion on the matter since there hasn't been any.

 

[Machi]

the subsets such as crobat chandelure which prevent moth from setting up. Even prankster whimsicott can encore/taunt the moth.

Wonder skin was the problem with Venomoth as it made taunt or the like only half as effective, you were aiming for a pure passer set.

 

[Darvin]

Weavile hits ludicrously hard. I ran some calcs on that thing a while back, and concluded there was no way this thing is getting back into UU. It outspeeds a huge portion of the metagame, and literally everything that outspeeds it naturally is OHKO'd by a +2 Ice Shard. Scarfers can't switch in because if they switch into a knock off they lose their scarf and die the following turn (and many are killed by a +2 Ice Shard anyways). Weavile's coverage is phenomenal, and Mega Aggron with Filter is the only pokemon in the tier that has any claim to walling it. Weavile's bulk isn't great but is good enough to survive most priority attacks, with Vaccuum Wave and Mach Punch being the only ones that truly threaten it thanks to exposing its x4 weakness, but neither are very common in UU. While Weavile does have a bit of a 4MSS (it wants Icicle Crash, Ice Shard, Knock Off, Low Kick, and Swords Dance, so one has to be dropped) your opponent doesn't know which one you gave up, and Weavile's counter will be completely different based on which move it lacks!

Mega Aggron is the only pokemon in the tier that can claim to switch into any attack from Weavile and proceed to force it out without taking too much damage, but a low kick prior to mega evolution will kill it on the switch. Even stuff like defensive Arcanine comes within a hair of dying to a +1 Knock Off after rocks. A number of our bulky water pokemon can check Weavile, but many are dependent on hax to land a Scald burn and otherwise are setup fodder (looking at you, Suicune).

calcs

0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 49-58 (17.4 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 91-108 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Swampert Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 87-103 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 67.4% chance to 3HKO
These guys are setup fodder dependent on burn hax to do anything. If you don't get a burn, +4 Weavile OHKO's each of them.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 328-386 (121 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Bee is the only UU pokemon that outspeeds Weavile and isn't weak to ice, but it's not bulky enough to live a boosted STAB priority move anyways

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 101-121 (27 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 133-157 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Porygon2: 372-438 (99.4 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Porygon2 is a great check, but risks losing its eviolite when it switches in. If this happens, Porygon2 is crippled for the rest of the game and can no longer effectively check Weavile if it comes in again.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 78-92 (21.7 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 260-307 (72.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even if Cobalion switches in on a knock off and gets its Justified bonus, it's still likely to be KO'd next turn by Low Kick. If it switches in on a Swords Dance, it dies to a +2 Low Kick and only a Choice Scarf can save it.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 242-286 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 390-458 (138.7 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If SR is on the field, you die to recoil afterwards.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 209-246 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 318-374 (113.1 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
One of the few pokemon that will actually dissuade a Swords Dance setup, and even then you have to keep it healthy to do this. Also it can't switch in prior to Mega Evolution, since a low kick OHKO's non-Mega Aggron.

Moving on, Venomoth is actually very similar to Smeargle in some respects. It has access to a reliable sleep-inducing move, a great boosting move in Quiver Dance, and Baton Pass. While it lacks access to the full breadth of moves that Smeargle gets, its significantly better typing and ability means it's well equipped to make that pass. If Smeargle does come into the tier under a complex ban, that'd be a precedent that could probably apply to Venomoth itself. However, I can't see Venomoth's Quiver Pass being allowed back into the tier as is.

 

[Tymano]

Moving away from the whole discussion about retesting mons from BL, next month, we will probably be getting Mandibuzz, Mamoswine, and Gallade from OU, and losing nothing, but unless we bring Mega-Gallade back from BL (which might actually be a good thing for the tier) but if we don't Mamoswine might be a really nice check to Sal, but another bit of bait to our bulky waters.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Moving away from the whole discussion about retesting mons from BL, next month, we will probably be getting Mandibuzz, Mamoswine, and Gallade from OU, and losing nothing, but unless we bring Mega-Gallade back from BL (which might actually be a good thing for the tier) but if we don't Mamoswine might be a really nice check to Sal, but another bit of bait to our bulky waters.

Hippowdon(and Tornadus-T but it's BL) will leave.

 

[Freeroamer]

Moving away from the whole discussion about retesting mons from BL, next month, we will probably be getting Mandibuzz, Mamoswine, and Gallade from OU, and losing nothing, but unless we bring Mega-Gallade back from BL (which might actually be a good thing for the tier) but if we don't Mamoswine might be a really nice check to Sal, but another bit of bait to our bulky waters.

Leave Mega Gallade in BL, the days when it was allowed were pure terror and we don't need a repeat of that now we actually have a stable meta. Mandibuzz looks interesting being bulky as fuck, but being a Flying neutral to Fighting and still weak to rocks really sucks in a tier known for Fighting spam, it's also really passive vs stuff it can't hurt with Foul Play so while I think it will see some use on bulkier teams as a defogger I don't see it dominating.

Mamoswine looks like it will be vicious thanks to those great STABs and the ability to revenge kill huge amounts of the tier with Ice Shard, which is really nice priority atm. Sucks that it'll probably push CroCune usage up as a response though. Gutted to see Hippowdon go, but it wasn't doing too great in a meta with Gatr as one of the prime physical threats and where it had to pick either Stone Edge to be a reliable check to Aero or Whirlwind to stop stuff like SD Hera setting up all over it. Surprised we kept it for this long tbh. Obviously this is all theorymon and in a few weeks time I'll probably be forced to eat my words but what can you do?

 

[Darvin]

The only certain change to the tier is the death of sand if Hippo leaves. Speaking of which, I'd been meaning to try out the "sand puppy" before it's no longer viable in UU. Mamoswine's hard-hitting Ice Shards look really appealing, even if it does come with a big Suicune weakness.

 

[Patrick1088]

Moving away from the whole discussion about retesting mons from BL, next month, we will probably be getting Mandibuzz, Mamoswine, and Gallade from OU, and losing nothing, but unless we bring Mega-Gallade back from BL (which might actually be a good thing for the tier) but if we don't Mamoswine might be a really nice check to Sal, but another bit of bait to our bulky waters.

Mandibuzz sounds really cool imo. Overcoat + defog just screams Mega Snow Sweep. Roost/Foul Play(or Knock off) l/ Defog and U-Turn/Brave Bird. Very similar to Gligar, but immunity to powder moves and weather is enough to carve a niche.

 

[Machi]

Mandibuzz sounds really cool imo. Overcoat + defog just screams Mega Snow Sweep. Roost/Foul Play(or Knock off) l/ Defog and U-Turn/Brave Bird. Very similar to Gligar, but immunity to powder moves and weather is enough to carve a niche.

One big difference, as to why I would use it over Gligar as a pure defogger, is that it won't be afraid of Knock off - so the defenses are somewhat more reliable and even potentially capable of sponging a knock off if need be. Well either way it is another hazard control which UU could benefit from~.

 

[Schpoonman]

Actually, I don't think Mamoswine is THAT big of Suicune bait. Or rather it baits a Suicune switch-in. I don't know, I'm tired. Anyway, it can run Life Orb Freeze Dry and enough SpA to reliably 3HKO. Don't know how worth it is, though.

 

[xMarth]

I'm not sure Mamoswine can really be walled honestly. Its STABs have such good coverage and it has other moves like Freeze Dry, Knock Off, Superpower and Stone Edge to bop most physical walls. Top it off with priority in Ice Shard and it would probably be one of the most dangerous mons in UU. Possibly even suspect worthy.

 

[nv]

Here's my thoughts on the potential drops:

Mandibuzz:

A much appreciated Defogger that is bulky, boasting 110 / 105 / 95 defenses, can take Knock Offs a lot easier than most Defoggers, bar Crobat, and has a STAB Knock Off of its own, although it doesn't hit too hard. Foul Play is a decent option to punish physical attackers that aren't named Cobalion or Lucario (although boosting their attack via Justified makes Foul Play hit harder). Having reliable recovery in Roost along with a great ability in Overcoat makes it a great partner for weather Pokemon like Mega Abomasnow. However, while it has great bulk, it is pretty passive in terms of damage outside of status moves / Foul Play and it is a Flying type that is weak to Rocks and neutral to Fighting which can be a problem in a tier filled with Fighting-type Pokemon.

Mamoswine:

This thing is gonna be an amazing threat, but bear with me when I say this Pokemon can potentially stay UU. I feel it will have a hard time with bulky Water-types as even with access to Freeze Dry it still loses to bulky Water-types not named Swampert as Suicune can set up Calm Minds against and beat it with STAB Scald while Vaporeon is only 4HKOed meaning it can Wish stall / Scald it. And without Superpower, Snorlax can set up Curses and RestTalk its way to victory. Without Stone Edge, it loses easily to Rotom-H, which is immune to its Ground-type STAB while resisting its Ice-type STAB. So while this thing may be a major threat, this thing suffers very badly from 4MSS as it wants to run Earthquake, Ice Shard, Ice-STAB, Superpower, Stone Edge, and Freeze Dry...but can only run 4 of those, leaving it walled by common Pokemon in UU.

Gallade (and Galladite):

While I didn't really think Mega Gallade was broken the first time (since base 110 is a good speed tier a lot of common Pokemon still outsped it but everyone has their own opinion lol) I do believe getting regular Gallade isn't going to do much as it has a bad base 80 Speed and while it has access to priority, it is unSTABed priority. All in all, Mega Gallade may make a difference if we retest it, but I feel reg Gallade will not.

All in all, I am super excited for these drops and hope Mamoswine stays. As much as everyone is happy with the meta, I am personally disappointed because while the meta is cool, it is really stale imo. I will be honest, Mamoswine might actually shake up the meta in a good way as I can see it being suspected but I don't see it broken from initial calcs.

 

[Darvin]

There just aren't very many pokemon in the tier worth running Freeze-Dry on Mamoswine for. Unless you go nuts with SpA investment (specialized Suicune lure, I guess?) Earthquake hits most things harder. I calced a bunch of pokemon that looked like they'd be vulnerable to Freeze Dry and wasn't really impressed:

calcs

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 42.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 133-159 (32.9 - 39.3%) -- 10.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 211-250 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 174-211 (55.9 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 181-214 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 133-159 (37.1 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 164-192 (40.8 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 333-395 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 183-216 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 348-421 (86.7 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 281-331 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 213-252 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Slowking: 231-274 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 184+ SpD Slowking: 109-127 (27.7 - 32.3%) -- 64.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 226-268 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 190-226 (50 - 59.4%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 175-208 (33 - 39.3%) -- 12.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 268-320 (50.6 - 60.4%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 211-248 (49.7 - 58.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 181-216 (42.6 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Jellicent: 143-172 (35.3 - 42.5%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 220-261 (75.6 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 312-374 (107.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 191-226 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 328-385 (75.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 179-213 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 221-265 (54.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tangrowth: 257-304 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(I guess it's a decent alternative to Icicle Crash?)

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Gastrodon: 195-230 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 348-421 (81.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 177-211 (45 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 125-148 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 426-504 (108.1 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Maybe there are some spreads that can make Freeze-Dry work against more threats, but you'd be sacrificing the power of your Earthquake and Ice Shard so I don't think it'd be worth it. This means Freeze-Dry is only useful against six relevant pokemon in total, of which five aren't even UU by usage (presuming Kingdra falls next month). Swampert is pretty much the only common pokemon you'd be running Freeze-Dry for. I'm not sure if that's worth dropping another useful move and using a double-edged nature is worth it. Knock Off, Stealth Rock, and Icicle Crash/Spear all compete with it for a slot after the obligatory Ice Shard and Earthquake.

I'm not sure Mamoswine can really be walled honestly.

Cresselia can. If you aren't running Knock Off, add Bronzong and Porygon2 to the list. Most of the time, though, this thing is going to be a nightmare to switch into.

 

[MrAldo]

>Mamoswine dropping

This thing is really good, wtf *sigh*

Not like every bulky water can be taken advantage of with a grass type cause UU have some pretty good ones. We will see, looking forward to it I guess.