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CM sets will probably want Leftovers just as much as DD'ers need their Life Orb, so I thought I'd try to give the best of both worlds. With the spare 4 EVs chucked into a defense, CAP20 will have 369HP in total, which is a good Life Orb number. On the other side of the spectrum, the full 252 EVs grant CAP20 with 432HP, an excellent Leftovers number since it means the least amount of turns are required to get it to full health... assuming it's left to its devices. The only other reasonable number that shares this quality is the 74 HP stat, which unfortunately doesn't allow for 101HP subs :/
111 Atk
I was debating on going for the full 120 Attack stat, but decided against it after realizing how low it'd leave the Special Tankiness score. (The fact that it wouldn't even reach 105 is shocking). In any case, 111 is plenty for it. Specifically, it fits smack bang in the middle of Hippowdon and M-Altaria, the former of which delivers blows just fine with EVs focused on bulk instead of its Attack stat. Now that I think about it, I might keep both attacking stats relatively close together. I'll decide whether to bump it back up or not after I figure out all the necessary calcs.
87 Def
With the HP stat, 252 EVs to both and +Def nature combined, it gives a full-powered Excadrill a 25% chance to kill it in one shot. This is exactly what I was aiming for when I was toying around with this stat. As you can see above, the Physical Tankiness score rounds out to 160, which is probably plenty for this CAP. It should certainly be enough to cope with the physical barrages that CM sets in particular will have to deal with.
100 S. Atk
So I was looking at the other spreads trying to get an idea what I should go for, and I find a disturbing lack of triple-digit Special Attack stat... the only exception is yours, hendrix96; you did good with going for 100. I might do the exact same because again, I want to keep both my attacking stats relatively close together. On the plus side, Flash Cannons have a small chance to one-shot a physically defensive Clefable, and can do decent high-end damage to them even at +1.
63 S. Def
The leftover stat, which, in my defense, does put the Special Tankiness score on par with that of Rotom-W. I don't plan on touching this stat because of this, because it still leaves reason for CAP20 to go for the CM, if only to improve its bulk on the one side that it could use it on. On top that, it puts the BST at 567, which I find is a far nicer number than anywhere near the 580 mark like I've been seeing in some stat spreads.
92 Spe
As you probably know already, this is literally just enough Speed for CAP 20 to reliably outpace Lando-T. 91 gives you the speed tie, but Scarfed versions aren't something you want to play around with. Nothing else is really worth the extra speed really; we can already beat quick-stalling Gliscors since they at most only run enough to beat +90's in my experience. Kyu-B might be a pain for CM sets, but DD should be fine; unlike Lando, Kyu doesn't run Scarf that often if I recall correctly, and we beat it with our Steel STAB. I could've easily bump this up to 102 Spe, not only to outspeed Adamant Breloom and Bisharp without the slightest of Speed EVs, but also to outpace Lando-I and speed tie with standard Garchomp. However, I'd have to cut the Atk down to 109 (which would be fair enough), cut the S. Atk down to 95 (which I'd feel bad about) and make the choice between upping the BST to 570 (which I felt was pushing it slightly) or cutting the S. Def down to 60 (which I certainly didn't want to do). As such, I'm sticking with my guns with 92 Spe
...
I'll leave this space open for all the calcs I need to do, which I'll do tomorrow
You do know that HeaLnDeaL told us to give a good amount of Calcs right (Well relevant ones, not shit like avoiding a 3HKO from a Magikarp, but thats besides the point)
Yes, and knowing that, for example, we OHKO Dugtrio with STAB SE is not a relevant calc. The point is to not have meaningless calculations, not that you shouldn't have a good number of calcs in the first place.
Use some common sense and judgment when including calcs, is all I'm saying. It's easy to go overboard.
nyttyn In order for Adamant Life Orb Excadrill to OHKO 252/252+ CAP 100% of the time, we would need a PT rating of 133 (90 HP / 85 Def) or lower. The only submission that has a PT lower than that is capefeather's, so kudos to him. Though, if having just a chance of surviving this attack from full health with full defensive investment is considered overboard, then I suppose setting the PT upper limit a full 47 points higher than that might have sent the wrong signals to submitters. That being said, I think you are right about the PT not needing to be as high as most of us originally thought. I have been going back and forth over the PT since I started working on the submission, unsure if the community would respond well to a not-awesome HP/Def ratio (especially after reading the limits thread). I guess your post provided the push I needed to tone the spread down to reasonable levels, so I ran a bunch of calcs and settled on a new Defense stat of 85 for my spread. This allows LO Excadrill to OHKO the CAP 100% of the time only if Stealth Rock is down. It also keeps the Dragon Dance set from being so bulky with no investment at all that it survives STAB SE attacks from stuff like Conkeldurr and defensive Garchomp, which I am more comfortable with. The new stat doesn't even really change how the CAP would interact with the Pokemon on its threats list, so overall I'm happy with the change. Thanks for the feedback.
I also cleaned up my calcs a little bit to make them more approachable, first by reorganizing them into simpler categories and then removing all the ugly decimals. I left a lot of calcs in there still, since no one is forcing anyone to read all them and they paint a more complete picture of the spread's viability; they are there if anyone is curious or too lazy to calc something themselves.
And regarding the Speed, I don't know what's necessarily wrong with having access to >100 base speed tiers. There was never a decision on what an "appropriate" speed was or what we "have the business" of outrunning when it comes to stuff like Bisharp that isn't on our threats list at all. The pros of 106 Speed are located in my submission (it's about making the player want good bulk, power, and speed because the CAP has access to all three, just not with the same EVs), and they are features, not requirements. I appreciate your difference in opinion regarding the value of higher speed, but I don't feel as though we need to just default to the bare minimum in all cases. I could be just as incredulous and genuinely confused as to why we want to be outsped by Landorus-I or Breloom on the Calm Mind set, but I understand that that is just another interpretation of the concept.
Korski If excadrill doesn't OHKO 252/252+ def, that's fine. That is a lot of bulk afterall. I mean morseo that Excadrill should not fail to OHKO uninvested CAP20 which is absolutely absurd, which you've reflected by changing the defense which is definitely way more in line with what we should actually be able to tank. And thank you for cleaning up the calcs.
As for the speed, it's moreso a "I don't understand, please clarify" issue. I agree that it is a fair point that there's no real apropos speed, so that is a fair enough argument. Nothing wrong with it, all things considered.
Anyways for the most part spreads are looking fine. Nothing exceptional or unreasonable thusfar, outside of the physical bulk being a bit too high across the board - keep it up guys.
Korski If excadrill doesn't OHKO 252/252+ def, that's fine. That is a lot of bulk afterall. I mean morseo that Excadrill should not fail to OHKO uninvested CAP20 which is absolutely absurd, which you've reflected by changing the defense which is definitely way more in line with what we should actually be able to tank. And thank you for cleaning up the calcs.
As for the speed, it's moreso a "I don't understand, please clarify" issue. I agree that it is a fair point that there's no real apropos speed, so that is a fair enough argument. Nothing wrong with it, all things considered.
Anyways for the most part spreads are looking fine. Nothing exceptional or unreasonable thusfar, outside of the physical bulk being a bit too high across the board - keep it up guys.
Justification:
For Speed, I went with 96 because I don't want CAP20 losing to common Choice Scarfers. Outside of Scarf Keldeo, a universal threat to CAP20, Choice Scarf users generally lie in the 88-95 Speed range. Furthermore, all of them (Excadrill, Landorus-T, Kyurem-B) have the capability to defeat or severely dent the CAP with their STAB or coverage moves. The Speed stat isn't critically important for the Calm Mind set, while the Dragon Dance set really only needs to outspeed the unboosted metagame at +0 and common Choice Scarfers at +1, so 96 is the most logical choice for Speed.
Physical Sweepiness:
I want this thing hitting hard. I'm expecting Splash Plate and Leftovers to be the two most common items on Dragon Dance CAP20, and I'm also assuming that CAP20 will run an offensive, not bulky, Dragon Dance set. Looking at OU right now, Life Orb Dragon Dance just isn't a thing. Revenge killers and priority attacks are just too strong for LO DD to be a great strategy. Although we do resist Talonflame's Acrobatics and Brave Bird, Life Orb still presents a major liability for our Dragon Dance set. For example, if an opponent predicts our Crabhammer and switches in a Ferrothorn, CAP20 loses over a quarter of its health from Ferrothorn's recoil, and then will lose another quarter of its health attacking it again if it's in KO range. We can't shell out 10% of our health every time we want to attack, so I'm leaving LO out of the calculations. While I'm not assuming CAP20 will learn Crabhammer, I feel extremely strongly that it should have the move.
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 234-276 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 187-222 (62.5 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 195-231 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 156-184 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 333-393 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 267-315 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 279-328 (84.8 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 222-262 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(any other Water move is clearly weaker, and we do not have the bulk to take any of Magnezone's electric attacks. Without Splash Plate and Crabhammer we do not threaten an OHKO with Rocks.)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 274-324 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(We cannot threaten an OHKO no matter what)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 368-434 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 294-348 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 306-362 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 312-368 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 300-354 (94 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 252-296 (78.9 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 272-324 (71.2 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 228-270 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 218-260 (57 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 186-218 (48.6 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 354-416 (98 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (lol Waterfall is such trash the other moves KO)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 274-324 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (note that a +1 attack cannot OHKO standard Conkeldurr, allowing us to maintain it as a 100% revenge kill)
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 184-217 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 147-174 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 123-145 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 138-163 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 103-123 (34.2 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 100-118 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 243-286 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Mega Swampert is a threat to us in all situations)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 100-118 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 25.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Skarmory switches into anything but a +1 Splash Plate Crabhammer)
Meteor Mash and Iron Head are both solid options for sweeping, but I don't expect Dragon Dance CAP20 to run Steel STAB very often regardless. Iron Head's flinch chance and accuracy outweigh Meteor Mash's power, so I'd expect DD to run Iron Head more often. However, there are some significant KOs that Meteor Mash gets that Iron Head doesn't. Most notably, with no item enhancement, Meteor Mash will KO Kyurem-B nearly 100% of the time. I find this an unavoidable consequence of making CAP20 a good Dragon Dancer, so I'm not too worried that this breaks the threatlist. If maintaining Kyu-B as a threat is important, we can always disallow Meteor Mash.
252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 294-348 (72.5 - 85.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 260-308 (64.1 - 76%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 294-348 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 260-308 (66.4 - 78.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 103-123 (25.4 - 30.4%) -- 7.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 93-109 (23 - 26.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 205-243 (70.2 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now that Physical STABs are covered, let's get into some fun stuff we can do with this spread.
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock WHAM!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock ZAP!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Icicle Crash vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 272-320 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock GET OUTTA HERE!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 300-354 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO WHO SAYS WATER CAN'T BEAT DRAGON?
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock lol gtfo onion
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 222-262 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock stickin' to the threatlist~
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 260-306 (89 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock KAPOW!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 244-288 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock BALANCED!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 35.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery REASONABLE!
Blaze Kick folks. Let's make it happen.
Special Sweepiness:
I'm expecting CM CAP20 to be a pretty defensive Calm Mind user, so calcs are going with no Special Attack investment or item support. Scald and Flash Cannon are the only relevant moves here. The importance of 97 SpA is that it 2HKOs Bold Unaware Clefable with Flash Cannon every time. Taking the burn chance into effect, it also gives us more of an out against Landorus-Therian.
+1 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 230-272 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 306-360 (95.9 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 302-356 (79 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (take the burn into account and we beat this thing more often than not)
+6 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 172-204 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- 53.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (we're not beating this fucker)
4 SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 134-158 (42 - 49.5%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (we burn it and it's toast lol get it?)
+6 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 261-307 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 4 SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 194-230 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (we need chip damage against this fucker)
Physical Tankiness:
I didn't think this was too critical to maximize, in fact it's farthest from the limit. 110 HP/84 Defense lets defensive (no investment) Landorus-Therian OHKO CAP20 100% of the time after Stealth Rock. It makes sure Calm Mind CAP20 still lose to Pokemon such as Conkeldurr and Excadrill 1v1 even though we dissuade their switching in with Scald. Kyurem-B can OHKO with either its Offensive or Scarf sets, while Conkledurr is guaranteed to KO CAP20 with a combination of Drain Punch and Mach Punch. Mega Metagross KOs DD CAP20 with either Hammer Arm or (usually with) a combination of Earthquake and Bullet Punch. As you can see from the following calcs, this spread sticks to the threatlist in terms of Physical Tankiness.
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 378-446 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 276-326 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 410-486 (113.2 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 344-408 (95 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 390-458 (107.7 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 356-421 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 340-400 (93.9 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 330-390 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 274-324 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 27-32 (7.4 - 8.8%)
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 316-372 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 462-546 (127.6 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 320-378 (88.3 - 104.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Against Calm Mind CAP20, I gave it a chance against some of the weaker walls such as Hippowdon and defensive Landorus-T as the threatlist suggested. Furthermore, even stronger Grounds such as Excadrill won't be guaranteed to KO a fully defensive CM CAP20. With a ton of luck and a Scald burn, we can even prevent Scarf Kyurem-B from revenging us some of the time!
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 264-312 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 192-228 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 288-338 (67.9 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 240-284 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 390-460 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 270-320 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 309-364 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 238-280 (56.1 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 192-226 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 254-300 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 220-260 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 320-380 (75.4 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 153-180 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Special Tankiness:
It's imperative to ride the limit here if we want to defeat some of the weaker Electric-types. Pokemon such as Defensive Zapdos are already faster than this CAP20 spread, so the least we can do is stop it from destroying us even if we have a turn to set up before it switches in. I want to minimize damage from Volt Switches from Rotom-W as well. As a result, I got as close to the limit as I could without pushing the HP stat north of 150 :P
The Dragon Dance set won't be taking Thundurus T-bolts anytime soon, but it will force Raikou and Magnezone to stay in and Thunderbolt rather than just Volt Switch out against us. In fact, Dragon Dance CAP20 at full health can potentially sneak by Raikou given a perfect damage roll.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 455-538 (125.6 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 330-390 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 356-422 (98.3 - 116.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 306-360 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 192-228 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
However, when you add in 252 EVs of HP investment and a Calm Mind, some of those defensive Pokemon don't have that much fun against us...
68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 128-152 (30.1 - 35.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 240-284 (56.6 - 66.9%)
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 180-212 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 250-296 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 92-108 (21.6 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In conclusion, this spread as about as good as we can make the CAP while sticking to the threatlist in my opinion.
EDIT HISTORY:
- Buffed 92 SpA to 97 in order to guarantee 2HKO against Clefable with Flash Cannon and to raise odds of defeating defensive Landorus-T at +1 with Calm Mind.
For Speed, I went with 96 because I don't want CAP20 losing to common Choice Scarfers. Outside of Scarf Keldeo, a universal threat to CAP20, Choice Scarf users generally lie in the 88-95 Speed range. Furthermore, all of them (Excadrill, Landorus-T, Kyurem-B) have the capability to defeat or severely dent the CAP with their STAB or coverage moves. The Speed stat isn't critically important for the Calm Mind set, while the Dragon Dance set really only needs to outspeed the unboosted metagame at +0 and common Choice Scarfers at +1, so 96 is the most logical choice for Speed.
Physical Sweepiness:
I want this thing hitting hard. I'm expecting Splash Plate and Leftovers to be the two most common items on Dragon Dance CAP20, and I'm also assuming that CAP20 will run an offensive, not bulky, Dragon Dance set. Looking at OU right now, Life Orb Dragon Dance just isn't a thing. Revenge killers and priority attacks are just too strong for LO DD to be a great strategy. Although we do resist Talonflame's Acrobatics and Brave Bird, Life Orb still presents a major liability for our Dragon Dance set.For example, if an opponent predicts our Crabhammer and switches in a Ferrothorn, CAP20 loses over a quarter of its health from Ferrothorn's recoil, and then will lose another quarter of its health attacking it again if it's in KO range. We can't shell out 10% of our health every time we want to attack, so I'm leaving LO out of the calculations. While I'm not assuming CAP20 will learn Crabhammer, I feel extremely strongly that it should have the move.
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 234-276 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 187-222 (62.5 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 195-231 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 156-184 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 333-393 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 267-315 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 279-328 (84.8 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 222-262 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(any other Water move is clearly weaker, and we do not have the bulk to take any of Magnezone's electric attacks. Without Splash Plate and Crabhammer we do not threaten an OHKO with Rocks.)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 274-324 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(We cannot threaten an OHKO no matter what)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 368-434 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 294-348 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 306-362 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 312-368 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 300-354 (94 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 252-296 (78.9 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 272-324 (71.2 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 228-270 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 218-260 (57 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 186-218 (48.6 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 354-416 (98 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (lol Waterfall is such trash the other moves KO)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 274-324 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (note that a +1 attack cannot OHKO standard Conkeldurr, allowing us to maintain it as a 100% revenge kill)
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 184-217 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 147-174 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 123-145 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 138-163 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 103-123 (34.2 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 100-118 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 243-286 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Mega Swampert is a threat to us in all situations)
+1 252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Splash Plate Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 100-118 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 25.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Skarmory switches into anything but a +1 Splash Plate Crabhammer)
Meteor Mash and Iron Head are both solid options for sweeping, but I don't expect Dragon Dance CAP20 to run Steel STAB very often regardless. Iron Head's flinch chance and accuracy outweigh Meteor Mash's power, so I'd expect DD to run Iron Head more often. However, there are some significant KOs that Meteor Mash gets that Iron Head doesn't. Most notably, with no item enhancement, Meteor Mash will KO Kyurem-B nearly 100% of the time. I find this an unavoidable consequence of making CAP20 a good Dragon Dancer, so I'm not too worried that this breaks the threatlist. If maintaining Kyu-B as a threat is important, we can always disallow Meteor Mash.
252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 294-348 (72.5 - 85.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 260-308 (64.1 - 76%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 294-348 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 260-308 (66.4 - 78.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 103-123 (25.4 - 30.4%) -- 7.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 93-109 (23 - 26.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 205-243 (70.2 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now that Physical STABs are covered, let's get into some fun stuff we can do with this spread.
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock WHAM!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock ZAP!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Icicle Crash vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 272-320 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock GET OUTTA HERE!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 300-354 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO WHO SAYS WATER CAN'T BEAT DRAGON?
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock lol gtfo onion
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 222-262 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock stickin' to the threatlist~
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 260-306 (89 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock KAPOW!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 244-288 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock BALANCED!
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 35.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery REASONABLE!
Blaze Kick folks. Let's make it happen.
Special Sweepiness:
I'm expecting CM CAP20 to be a pretty defensive Calm Mind user, so calcs are going with no Special Attack investment or item support. Scald and Flash Cannon are the only relevant moves here. The importance of 92 SpA is that it provides us a really good chance (85.2%) to 2HKO Bold Unaware Clefable with Flash Cannon.
+1 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 218-260 (60.7 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 290-344 (90.9 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 288-342 (75.3 - 89.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 159-187 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (we're not beating this fucker)
4 SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 128-151 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (we burn it and it's toast lol get it?)
+6 4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I will get to defensive calcs tonight/tomorrow morning
Life Orb Dragon Dance is not common because most Dragon Dance users are Mega Pokemon. There is Dragonite, but Multiscale is very useful, and Dragonite does not appreciate self-breaking its own shield against attacks. Life Orb Gyarados is not common because Lum Berry helps out a lot in providing a one time screen against status, which Moxie Gyarados is very crippled by. Our CAP already has a solid typing in protecting itself against status, along with Water Veil, and it can take most priority reasonably well. While residual damage is indeed a problem, since when is it ever smart to use an attack that you know could easily backfire. Also, Ferrothorn is very easy to lure, as common Pokemon like Latios or Kyurem-B can run Hidden Power Fire just so Ferro is weakened for the CAP to break through.
Alright guys, I'm appreciating a lot of the effort that is being put into submissions! That said, I do really like how Korski tried to start up some conversation as well; this thread isn't ONLY for submissions and sharing your opinions on certain stat numbers or spreads is perfectly allowed and definitely encouraged.
I had the opportunity to talk with DLC about stats a bit on Sunday, and in general it seems that there's really no reason to have astronomically high BST (anything over 600 is not necessary and probably won't get slated unless there are some very, very good arguments). The good news regarding that is many submissions so far seem to be playing well under this BST. As nyttyn said earlier, our initial PT maximum is probably a bit high. If you're hitting the maximum for one or two of the categories, then you probably should consider cutting way, waaay back in the others.
And while I haven't had the chance to read every line of reasoning and justification so far, I think the main thing that's commonly lacking is some sort of argument explaining how the stat submission created balance between the two sets. Many of the calcs might allude to this, but I'm really looking for a few written sentences that explicitly explain how the stats and relevant calcs are an illustration of balance between the Dragon Dance and Calm Mind sets. Speaking of calcs, nyttyn was on-point to mention that we do not want a needless wall of irrelevant calcs. Yes, we want calcs. Just please focus them and keep them worthwhile.
I also want to briefly mention the Speed stat in particular. Jas's submission explained that too high of speed could unfairly favor the Dragon Dance set over the Calm Mind set; his main point to this claim was that he didn't want us to become a top-tier dragon dancer with the potential to outclass the best of the existing ones. To quote him, his language was:
jas61292 said:
Some Dragon Dancers can get around it, but many are checked or worse by Scarf Lando-T, even after a boost. If we give CAP20 the ability to get around such a massive anti-DD force in OU, we make it outshine many other similar Pokemon in this role, which is not what this concept is about. Furthermore, if we are so good at the DD role, it becomes very hard for the CM role to keep up. I do not believe this is good at all for the concept, so I think it is absolutely imperative that we stay below 91 speed.
In regards to this, I did want to at least mention that some of the best Dragon Dancers do fair very well against Scarf Lando-T; Gyarados is able to lower Lando's attack and threaten with a powerful STAB move while Mega Altaria's great physical bulk lets it handle this threat very well. In this respect, there are certainly more traits than just speed that determine who the best Dragon Dancers are. Of course, Jas was very correct in assuming that we don't outclass these top Dragon Dancers. Scarf Lando has been the main speed number to beat after a Dragon Dance so far, which is reflected in the large number of spreads with 92 or more speed. We don't have to outspeed scarf Lando-T. However, many of the current dragon dancers do outspeed Lando-T or have other ways of dealing with it, and so I think having more speed than Lando-T does not equate to being better than the other Dragon Dancers. Yes, we do have the advantage of Water Veil, but we're still not the first Dragon Dancer to be immune to burns anyway. I'm perfectly fine with going over 91 speed. I may or may not think that 92 is the best route to go. But it's not the only route, for sure. In regards to recent 100 base Speed questions, I'm personally skeptical of going this high, and a part of me fears Banded sets becoming a bit too viable if our speed is higher than this. That said, I'm not flat out opposed to it. Much like nyttyn, I'd just like people to clarify their reasoning behind it.
In short, I'm really looking for a brief sentence-based explanation specifically dealing with the relative balance between our two sets. I'm fine with under 91 Speed, but I'm also fine with over it. Over 100 makes me a little nervous though, but it's also far from unslatable.
The earliest I can imagine making a slate would be Thursday, so you guys have until then (or maybe even Friday) to polish things up. I've spoken to a few people who are interested in making submissions but haven't even posted WIPs yet; to such individuals I now say that you don't have a whole ton of time to dawdle.
I think the balance of just about all of these spreads comes from the notion that the DD set has an easier time sweeping at +1 and the CM set has an easier time getting to +1 but needs +2 or better to be offensively threatening at all. As a result, DD performs better against offensive teams and can't really handle stall or bulky whatever, while CM performs better against defensive teams but is overwhelmed by offense before it gets a chance to set up. Either set can fit into your team if you are weak to the playstyle it's stronger against, so very likely neither one will greatly overshadow the other.
But for this post I want to focus on clarifying the Speed stat in my submission. Despite the relatively high 106 speed tier, I sort of balanced the rest of the stats against it in such a way that I think max speed will always be available but never be standard. I set the base Attack at a lower level relative to others to more or less force an Adamant nature on the DD set, since it really needs the extra power much more so than it does the extra speed (Scarf Kyu-B / Garchomp are very rare these days, and Jolly LO CAP at +1 wouldn't even be able to OHKO ScarfChomp with Crabhammer and Stealth Rock damage). So, for physical CAP, the Speed is functionally base 92 anyway. I also lowered the bulk quite a bit to incentivize major defensive EV investment in order to allow the CM set to set up over multiple turns.
The primary reason I've submitted 106 Speed, as opposed to a stat somewhere in the 90s with an Atk stat in the 110s, is to accomplish the same offensive output as those spreads while giving CM sets a lot more freedom to play around with speed tiers. 106 Speed allows the CAP to either invest more EVs into its bulk to tank some notable physical hits, or to invest more in Speed to shore up its SpD more quickly against special attackers and its SpA against fast Taunters like Stallbreakers Mew, Mega Gardevoir, and Talonflame. A CM CAP with Speed investment can get a surprise OHKO on Landorus-I, which steamrolls every other spread; it can beat defensive Zapdos and Rotom-W, which creates a tradeoff between offensive and defensive Electric types with the DD set; it can defeat Focus Blast Mega Gardevoir one-on-one with Flash Cannon if it switches in on Calm Mind, which CAP is supposed to be able to do, according to our threat list; and it can essentially pick and choose anything in the 65-105 base Speed range to toy around with.
So, maybe there are more than two viable boosting sets with this spread, maybe there aren't (I understand some users are skeptical of a fast CM set, that it would be compared to Keldeo and thus rendered inferior, which I think sort of misses the point). What I do know is that there for sure aren't more than two viable spreads with the slower submissions (outside of speed-creeping alongside defensive Landorus-T), and I am hoping we don't end up with a CAP that gives up any semblance of unpredictability on its first turn in battle. In fact, I think it would be mildly detrimental to the concept if this were the case. The concept is strongly focused on the idea of unpredictability, explicitly using words like "several" and "multiple" in reference to the CAP’s boosting sets, and our concept assessment singled out "offensive" and "defensive" boosting as measures of degree, not the number of viable sets (we all know speed can be used to great effect defensively). People will already have a good idea of what boosting set the CAP is running with Team Preview alone, which means we should give the CAP a few extra options for surprise value, and a higher Speed is a great way to do that without going bonkers on specialized coverage moves.
As far as concerns for a Choice Band set go, I guess it could be theoretically plausible but eventually prove to be very underwhelming. A Jolly 104 Atk CAP, at +1 but with no Life Orb and most often locked into an 80 BP move with plenty of OU resistances, is even on paper less threatening than an Adamant one at +1, with a Life Orb on top, and with +1 Spe, and with move freedom, despite having to take a turn and a moveslot to set it all up. And I can’t imagine us giving this Pokemon U-turn to compensate for the otherwise momentum-killing effect of being an easily-dealt-with Choice user. So I guess it's fair, in a vacuum, to be unsure about the viability of a Choice Band set with these stats, but in this metagame I don’t actually think my spread is strong enough to justify it when there are better options available.
Just commenting on the over 100 Speed discussion: Thanks to our PS limit of 170, any spread that goes for about 105 speed can at most run 107 Attack, and that's with bumping right up against the limit. While by no means a bad attack stat, it isn't really enough to justify Choice Band Usage in OU (unless we give this Cap ridiculously good coverage moves of course). As a result, I don't think the spreads with more than 100 Speed are really risking the rise of banded sets. And if Cap does run Adamant to patch up it's Attack stat, it's speed drops down into the mid nineties for Speed, where a plethora of Pokemon become both more powerful and faster Choice Band users. As a result, I don't think Cap can really use Choice items viably no matter what spread we give it, since the PS limit is just too low for it. Instead Cap is going to rely on unpredictability and its good boosting moves in order to function. While high speed doesn't directly help DD in this regard, it does help CM setup on or kill a lot of things that would otherwise threaten it (Rotom-W, Defensive Landorus-T, Mew, Defensive Zapdos, and if Cap is speed invested, a whole lot more). This not only enhances the CM set (which is probably still important, since the DD set is arguably better on most of the spreads) but it also puts more pressure on the opponent since a lot of these Pokemon can currently switch in on either set and win 1 v 1. By letting Calm Mind sets beat some of these Pokemon that Dragon Dance can't, Cap will do a better job of fulfilling its concept. Additionally, there's the points Korski made about not wanting Cap to only have one Physical and one Special set, since it would then lose all unpredictability on the first turn it attacked. Using a higher speed stat will help to make fast Calm Mind more viable.
Alright, I see a lot of submissions have been edited since my last comment, even if not a whole lot of posts have been made since then. Still, there are people who I've talked to who wanted to submit but haven't done so yet... For those individuals, time is seriously running out. Consider this the 24 hour warning.
I gotta jet off to class, so I don't have time for specific comments, but I will address speed very briefly once more. Anything wit 100 speed or high is perfectly fine, in as long as the attack stat is compensated. The PS limit does make it hard to be a banded set, as that was the intention of the limit, but there's a small wiggle room of danger that exists. With only 104 attack, I do not think Korski's spread is riding that limit. Beyond just the tiny glimmer of a band set that we want to avoid, I'm a little bit torn on whether or not the calm mind set truly benefits from the "freedom" of higher speed. I think there are some benefits, of course, but to what degree I'm not sure.
You can find me on PS during the late hours if anyone wants some stat chat :)
Err Korski, why do we need to outrun Stallbreaker Talonflame, when it does jack to CAP anyway. Sure it can "taunt", if it outruns, but its still getting smacked in by +1 Scald, and will eventually need to switch out which means something else has got to switch into Scald and risk a burn.
+0 0 SpA Scald doesn't even 2HKO Stallbreaker Talonflame, so in a one-on-one situation Talonflame can Taunt on CM (or Scald), prevent the setup, and switch out and even switch back into SR later if it gets put up and Roost it off. The CAP doesn't need to outrun Talonflame, and I never said it did; it would just be nice to not have to have a frail Fire-type feel at all comfortable staying in like that. Yeah, it gets 2HKO'd by +1 Scald, but it's not actually switching into this Pokemon, ever. And besides, that is just one of the Pokemon I mentioned, and I've acknowledged that major speed investment would be a decent experiment and not the standard set.
Btw I was wondering how sets that are under 100 speed and have low special tankiness are able to deal gothitelle and volcarona? Because I had to do some major stat changes to deal with them for the calm mind set. I was wondering if im overlooking something that would make them less threatening to cap?
p.s
Admiral Stalfos we are the outliers with our triple digit spA, we must stay strong! For Calm Mind!!!
XD
Btw I was wondering how sets that are under 100 speed and have low special tankiness are able to deal gothitelle and volcarona? Because I had to do some major stat changes to deal with them for the calm mind set. I was wondering if im overlooking something that would make them less threatening to cap?
p.s
Admiral Stalfos we are the outliers with our triple digit spA, we must stay strong! For Calm Mind!!!
XD
Gothitelle's biggest problem is that even with a Scarf it isn't fast enough to beat the DD set, and the problem with Volc is that he doesn't outspeed after we Dragon Dance either, unless we made the hideous mistake of trying to set up on Volcarona.
I do understand that the dragon dance set can beat them. But as volcarona and gothitelle are on both sides of the threats we should beat, shouldn't the calm mind set have an answer for them as well?
So we're pretty much down to the wire. I'm just going to attempt to be kind and tag Deck Knight , aim, Alfalfa, Snobalt, Albacore, and Admiral_Stalfos19 and remind them that if they want to have a chance of being slated that they need to mark the top of their post with Final Submission. I don't want to drag this out longer than necessary, but it would be a shame for the candidates list to be cut down by such a large number due to missing a simple bolded phrase.
Expect the slate to be up in a few hours, so if you're tagged and want your spread to be considered, please act fast.
Speed - 97 Speed allows us to do a few things. We'll absolutely be able to outpace Choice Scarf Landorus-T with this Speed, but still not enough to do so with Adamant. I decided that enough Speed to outpace Kyurem-B was beneficial; it definitely still threatens us with a Fusion Bolt, so we can't just go setting up on it, but it still allows for the DD set to perhaps hit it with an Iron Head first, turning a relatively poor matchup for both sets into a better one-- if CAP20 opts to run Speed. Why 97 over say, 96? A small detail, but it's actually quite important for the spread: Base 97 Speed allows us to hit 230 Speed uninvested, which ensures Modest Choice Specs Gothitelle will never be able to outrun us, allowing a theoretical max HP / max Def CM CAP 20 to boost (or attack outright if Gothitelle is low on health) on the Thunderbolt, and not be KOed by Thunderbolt. Timid Choice Specs Gothitelle would be able to outspeed, but it's uncommon and also unlikely to actually KO us (or cap20 can speed creep, but really not necessary), which helps us stay true to the threatlist -- Can shakily set up vs. Gothitelle as it's not completely obliterated by Thunderbolt, but still fears Trick.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 368-434 (89.7 - 105.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 368-434 (89.7 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 336-396 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 336-396 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
For the remaining bulk and power calcs, I'll be assuming vanilla 252 HP / 252+ Def / 4 SpD and 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252+ Spe EV spreads (unless noted otherwise) for the Calm Mind and Dragon Dance sets respectively.
HP - Base 103 HP is a little bit more than enough for the Calm Mind set to create 101 HP Substitutes. Since CAP20 only needs 228 EVs invested in HP to hit 404 HP, this gives CAP a little bit of breathing room if it wants to run a tad bit of speed creep or invest a bit in its Special Attack, but not enough for it to move a bunch of EVs into Special Defense and start unnecessarily defeating Electric-types. For example, investing a few extra EVs into the 95 SpA secures the OHKO on standard Unaware Clefable after SR, for example, and the extra damage especially helps against variants with Protect.
0 SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
28 SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Defense - With Base 90 Defense, we hit about 154 PT, which is well below the PT limit. This is still enough to give us a bit of breathing room against more defensive Ground-types, as well as avoiding straight OHKOs from weaker Fighting-type attacks (with CM's bulk), but low enough so that DD sets take serious damage from things like Choice Scarf Keldeo, LO Breloom, etc, and Choice Scarf Garchomp can OHKO sets without bulk.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 216-254 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 306-360 (87.9 - 103.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 152-182 (37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 216-254 (62 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 186-218 (45.3 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 260-308 (74.7 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 254-300 (61.9 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 356-422 (102.2 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 260-308 (63.4 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 368-434 (105.7 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 218-260 (53.1 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 312-368 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Special Defense - Base 65 SpD is low, giving us around 115 ST, which is definitely one of the lower values being submitted, and for good reason. Simply put, any decently powered Electric-type needs to be able to OHKO sets without bulk, or CAP20 is simply too bulky. Likewise, the CM set needs to also be heavily threatened by things like Specs Magnezone, or else it's getting too bulky too fast. 115 ST is still plenty workable, however, letting us still easily grab boosts against Fairy-types such as Sylveon, as well as Life Orb Latios/Latias, assuming they lack Thunderbolt. The key here is having enough bulk to set up, but not enough bulk to power past the things that are supposed to threaten us at +1.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 195-230 (47.5 - 56%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 164-194 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 96-114 (23.4 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 197-232 (48 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (definitely enough to boost on)
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 380-450 (92.6 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 416-492 (101.4 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 404-476 (98.5 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (nope, these guys beat us, as they should)
At +1...
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 254-302 (61.9 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 278-330 (67.8 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 458-540 (111.7 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 270-320 (65.8 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 351-416 (85.6 - 101.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yup, CAP20 won't be winning even if it has grabbed a boost. Thunderus can simply Nasty Plot and overwhelm CAP20.
Attack - With Base 110 Attack, we hit a PS of about 161. This is just enough for LO DD CAP20 to OHKO frailer foes like Mega Lopunny and Latios, as nyttyn mentioned earlier. We'll also be able to KO Kyurem-B if we're running LO, but will have trouble doing so without it, especially if Kyurem-B has bulk investment. LO will certainly increase what we can beat, but leaves us more prone to revenge killing due to our lower Physical Tankiness (not to mention the very low special tankiness), which I feel is an acceptable balance. This is also enough for CAP20 to beat Thundurus-I (if it avoids the full para) with Waterfall after Stealth Rock, and if LO, no rocks needed, which is incredibly helpful for sticking to our different checks / counters for different sets. Overall, this Attack stat isn't obscene, and won't break past neutral, bulky foes such as Zard-X after a boost, not to mention we don't break through Magnezone in one hit (not with STAB moves anyway), but it's enough to break through frail foes as well as things we hit super-effectively. This will give us a little more freedom when we're deciding coverage, since we can pick and choose from remaining threats what we'd like to defeat and what shouldn't get KOed.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 455-538 (116.3 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 350-414 (89.5 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 232-274 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 302-356 (101 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 208-246 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 238-281 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (KOes with SR damage in base form)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 273-321 (91.3 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 200-238 (71.1 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 286-339 (89 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (beating this at +1 with rocks is reasonable, no? going by threat list this is cool anyway)
Special Attack - 95 SpA gives us around 143 SS, which is nearest to the upper limit out of all this spread's ratings. Simply put, we're gonna need some muscle if we want people to have a good incentive to use it over DD, as well as being able to punish our switch-ins better. 95 SpA gives us a good chance to defeat Unaware Clefable even uninvested (CM could be a pain), and our HP stat above gives us some wiggle room in terms of how much we can power creep or speed creep, in this case helping us to secure the 2HKO on Unaware Clefable. We aren't going to be defeating Electric-types anytime soon with this spread nonetheless, but it allows us to take a good chunk out of their health, discouraging them from mindlessly switching in over and over, not to mention a Scald burn would help with chip damage. Magnezone is a different story, as it still switches in and beats us, which is probably for the best (our Scald outspeeds and does quite a bit, but never KOes at +1) We'll also do a sizeable chunk to Ground-types such as physically defensive Landorus-T and Hippowdon at +1 with Scald, which is incredibly helpful.
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 54-64 (16.8 - 19.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 84-99 (25.5 - 30%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 100-118 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 282-332 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 300-354 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 324-384 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 135-160 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (yeah, still beats us, that's fine tho, we can hit it decently hard first)
Kudos to everyone who submitted something; this was not an easy task for anyone to put forth the effort to make a good submission. I tried to slate a fair mix of conservative, liberal, and mid-ground stats in terms of BST, but ultimately the reasonings behind specific stats were my primary consideration. Without further ado, here are the submissions I am slating:
Deck Knight105 / 116 / 98 / 95 / 70 / 96 (BST 580) Overall Deck’s submission wrapped all of power, mid-speed, and physical bulk into a single present box that wasn’t completely OP. Strangely enough for being our Republican Admin, Deck’s stats represent the liberal end of the spectrum of those submitted.
aim 91 / 116 / 95 / 95 / 80 / 92 (BST 569)This got slated as the only 92 base speed Final Submission. Aim’s spread was one of the slower and stronger submissions with a good, mid-level bulk, and his justification was short and no-nonsense. A pretty clean and straightforward pick overall.
capefeather85 / 110 / 85 Def / 90 / 65 / 95 (BST 530) Cape’s submission had the lowest BST of any submitted and the comparative loss of bulk is his main defining factor. While I was initially worried that the defenses were too low, I also realize that our bulk will likely determined some of our non-attacking moves, and in the end I feel we can accommodate with appropriate moves later down the road if this submission wins.
Korski100 / 104 / 85 / 90 / 70 / 106 (BST 555) I’m personally not a fan of all the speed Korski brought to the table, but he reasoned quite well and his attack stat is low enough to the point where I don’t mind. The Jolly vs Adamant argument is the main reason why this is being slated.
Albacore100 / 108 / 99 / 89 / 82 / 97 (BST 575) This was one of the more physical bulky spreads to be slated, but unlike Deck it chose to have lower attack in exchange for higher special defense. Combing both physical and special bulk, this is one of the most defensively liberal spreads to be slated.
jas6129290 / 115 / 94 / 90 / 60 / 86 (BST 535) jas submitted the lowest speed and argued considerably for it. As usual, his reasoning was insightful. Having such low speed and special bulk together worries me, but jas’s submission carved out a niche for itself.
DetroitLolcat110 / 111 / 84 / 97 / 79 / 96(577 BST) I guess this is what survives of Team special attack. This is one of the higher BSTs, but DLC’s explanation helps assure that there is nothing added here just for fluff (something that I felt the triple digit special attack spreads failed to do).
sparktrain103 HP / 110 / 90 / 95 / 65 / 97 (BST 560) 97 is a higher speed number, but I still feel really comfortable with it and as a stat it was justified well. Spark’s bulk was rather average, and his BST was similar to Korski’s without all the speed. Overall, I feel that this was a nice snug, bug-in-rug middle ground stat spread with proper explanation.
Thanks again everyone. For those not slated, I'll try to keep it brief and simple. A few submissions I thought had too high of HP, and some had too high of stats across the board. A few I strongly considered, but they shared too many similarities to the slate and had to be cut for comparatively lackluster reasoning. Reasoning was not the only thing considered, but it was a tipping point for a few submissions to either be slated or not.
No comments or objections. Heal and I already talked about the slate, I have no objections to anything that's on it, and he already said everything I want to say.
This next song is just something I thought made a quite clever use of a single sound effect. Who knew that inserting a coin could add to a song so well? This song's kind of a experimental mashup, all over the board, yet it somehow works - just like CAP20.
