Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Shrug]

I'm going to argue Snubbull should be Mid - A.

First off, its utility: Snubbull provides a consistent switchin to most Fighting-types, something invaluable in this meta. While Snubs only hits 23 / 14 in Hp / Def compared to Spritzee's 27 / 16, Snubbull has the benefit of Intimidate, which means Foo / Timb / Scraggy do pitiful damage regardless. It can bulk out exceptionally well with an Evio (hitting a full slate of 23 / 14 / 12) or use BJ for extra survivability. It has strong STAB in Play Rough, good coverage in Earthquake. It brings solid utility by spreading Twaves, and removes status from your own team with Heal Beal. Additionally, it packs coverage: Thief hits Ghosts (especially Gastly) that want to come in and has the added bonus of stealing items after taking a Knock or activating Bj; the rare (yet effective) Close Combat can thump incoming Pawns or Ferroseeds. Snubs keeps things varied enough where it can be customizable to your team's needs.

The main factor separating Snubbull from Spritzee, despite the fact the latter is bulkier and can Spread wishes, is this: Snubbull is a fucking nuke. STAB 18 attack Play Rough - a move not resisted by a ton of Lc mons - hits with genuine malice and can break teams open. Babyface's coverage moves hit appealingly hard, as well. The combination of the ease with which Snubs gets in and the power with which it hits once it's on means it is a genuine threat.

I can't use a definition because Mid-A is under the same umbrella as A-, but based on the mons in both subtiers, Snubull clearly belongs among the Mid-A mons. It isn't set up bait like Cotton, can fulfill multiple roles unlike say a Diglett, and has more opportunities to come in than something like Skrelp. It compares favorably to Mid - A mons like Gunk - Snubs hits with a similar aggression while getting in on more.

 

[Kavatika]

Agreeing with Snubbull to mid A, but the I believe best advantage Snubbull has over Spritzee is the fact that it doesn't lose momentum nearly as easily.

 

[kingmidas]

I'm going to argue Snubbull should be Mid - A.

First off, its utility: Snubbull provides a consistent switchin to most Fighting-types, something invaluable in this meta. While Snubs only hits 23 / 14 in Hp / Def compared to Spritzee's 27 / 16, Snubbull has the benefit of Intimidate, which means Foo / Timb / Scraggy do pitiful damage regardless. It can bulk out exceptionally well with an Evio (hitting a full slate of 23 / 14 / 12) or use BJ for extra survivability. It has strong STAB in Play Rough, good coverage in Earthquake. It brings solid utility by spreading Twaves, and removes status from your own team with Heal Beal. Additionally, it packs coverage: Thief hits Ghosts (especially Gastly) that want to come in and has the added bonus of stealing items after taking a Knock or activating Bj; the rare (yet effective) Close Combat can thump incoming Pawns or Ferroseeds. Snubs keeps things varied enough where it can be customizable to your team's needs.

The main factor separating Snubbull from Spritzee, despite the fact the latter is bulkier and can Spread wishes, is this: Snubbull is a fucking nuke. STAB 18 attack Play Rough - a move not resisted by a ton of Lc mons - hits with genuine malice and can break teams open. Babyface's coverage moves hit appealingly hard, as well. The combination of the ease with which Snubs gets in and the power with which it hits once it's on means it is a genuine threat.

I can't use a definition because Mid-A is under the same umbrella as A-, but based on the mons in both subtiers, Snubull clearly belongs among the Mid-A mons. It isn't set up bait like Cotton, can fulfill multiple roles unlike say a Diglett, and has more opportunities to come in than something like Skrelp. It compares favorably to Mid - A mons like Gunk - Snubs hits with a similar aggression while getting in on more.

Since this is a fairy type its safe to assume it'll be itemless rather early unless it is paired with something like a larvesta (which is SO good with snubbull) so the extra bulk is overstated though it isn't as crazy as spritzee not losing its eviolite. IMO snubbull has 4mss, it wants earthquake thief play rough and thunder-wave, and enjoys having CC, heal bell, ice fang (best bet for foongus but this is least relevant). True it does hit hard but it hates targets it can't hit for good SE damage like pumpkaboo-super, foongus, larvesta, magnemite (when SR isn't up) and not to mention its slow speed means if something can get in, it'll get the hit first most of the time. Cottonee is the definition of something not set up bait so A) You don't know what it means or B) You meant it gets forced out rather easily. Diglett doesn't need multiple roles, its diglett it does one hell of a job, restricts teambuilding more than anything bar fighters and pawn. Skrelp is a wallbreaker, it doesn't need that many chances to come the first place. Also it comes in on fighters, fairies, and anything that can't 2HKO (ie: a lot). The difference with gunk is its amazing priority/stabs, its actually rather weak statwise but it has everything it needs to damage movepool wise. Also snubbull is a meh fletchling/smasher check unlike spritzee due it having worse bulk/hitting on the physical side.

 

[Pancham]

IMO snubbull has 4mss, it wants earthquake thief play rough and thunder-wave, and enjoys having CC, heal bell, ice fang (best bet for foongus but this is least relevant).

Snubs has Fire Punch, which is not only more powerful than Ice Fang, but also hits Ferroseed, another good a Snubbul switchin.

I would say Snubbul is a very good Fletchling check if you are playing a more offensive team, as Spritzee kind of has Trubbish syndrome, iez: it loses momentum rather easily. However, I personally do not think Snubbulmshould move up any higher right now. Things amidas points out are pretty valid. I also do not like aclose Combat very much because Fire Punch + EQ are better choices most of the time. Due to Snubbul being a Fairy and having zintimidate, it certainly wants to come in very often, kind of like Chinchou and Spritzee, and this is because it is a soft check to so many things. However, this is a problem because it means it will consume its Berry ajuice faster and it gets worn down very easily. I man, Snubbul is good, but I would not say it is on the same level of usefulness as other mons in Mid A right now, especially Spritzee.

So yah, keep Snub in A-

 

[kingmidas]

Snubs has Fire Punch, which is not only more powerful than Ice Fang, but also hits Ferroseed, another good a Snubbul switchin.

I would say Snubbul is a very good Fletchling check if you are playing a more offensive team, as Spritzee kind of has Trubbish syndrome, iez: it loses momentum rather easily. However, I personally do not think Snubbulmshould move up any higher right now. Things amidas points out are pretty valid. I also do not like aclose Combat very much because Fire Punch + EQ are better choices most of the time. Due to Snubbul being a Fairy and having zintimidate, it certainly wants to come in very often, kind of like Chinchou and Spritzee, and this is because it is a soft check to so many things. However, this is a problem because it means it will consume its Berry ajuice faster and it gets worn down very easily. I man, Snubbul is good, but I would not say it is on the same level of usefulness as other mons in Mid A right now, especially Spritzee.

So yah, keep Snub in A-

I came across this issue during tangma and I should've brought it up to avoid confusion but the elemental punches, gen 3 tutor moves and play rough, a gen 6 idk move don't work together. Otherwise snubbull would've gotten a lot more usage back then.

 

[Aerow]

kingmidas, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, and ThunderPunch are all compatible with Play Rough, because we got elemental punches move tutors in ORAS.

 

[Shrug]

I can't quote because I'm on mobile but I'll adress main concerns with moving Snubs up. It does take Knock Offs a ton, but thief is ever-useful in recovering items and while weakening the other team. About the 4mss contention made by both km and Adam lambert, I disagree. Snubs would be overjoyed to have play / twave/ eq / thief + more coverage, but functions perfectly with the core 4 moves. The coverage is only an option if you need a specific move and can forgo another, but 4mss applies to a mon that needs 5 moves to be effective. This is not the case. The main benefit to Snubs that I didn't communicate effectively enough before is that it is a wall breaker that soaks hits like a tank. While most breakers can only come in 2 times (an estimate) snubs gets in the whole match and hits really hard. It's the glue on my best team and essentially the reason the team works - it stops momentum and then applies strong pressure.

Spritz for a+ btw will discuss later

 

[tazz]

Corphish ----> B+

Corphish doesn't see that much use but honestly it's such a good wallbreaker/sweeper that it definitely deserves B+. It will do it's job vs a variety of playstyles, by either setting up SD on stall or BO and punching all kinds of holes, or aqua jetting all kinds of crap on HO. It has bulk so that it is incredibly easy to set up with. It's often thought of as a poke that wears down SS tirtougas checks, but that can work the other way around. It's ability to break poryspritz is also really nice, more than warranting B+

 

[kingmidas]

kingmidas, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, and ThunderPunch are all compatible with Play Rough, because we got elemental punches move tutors in ORAS.

oh it did, nice, still don't want it to move up though.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Mankey -> D
Venipede -> C-

Feel free to object to either of these changes. Even though Venipede hasn't really been discussed, it's been used to a fair degree of success by notable players for some time now.

The Gothita/Diglett nomination was much more controversial than I thought it would be, but I would rather that if they do get moved up, it'll be together. Of course Gothita has its own advantages and Diglett has other advantages, and specific teams will value one more than the other, but I don't think either is strictly better than the other on the average team; often, they play so similarly and are so comparably effective that they're almost interchangeable.

I'm not particularly for or against Snubbull moving at this point, but do keep in mind that even though it has more than enough power to give offensive and sometimes balanced teams a headache, it's still not super duper powerful, certainly not powerful enough to act as a wall-breaker unless it runs thief and two coverage moves. The standard set is outright unable to break through some of the most common defensive Pokemon, like Porygon, Foongus, and Ferroseed; even once Spritzee loses its Eviolite, Snubbull needs Stealth Rock to 2HKO with Play Rough.

What do you guys think of the Budew nomination? C may be a bit of a stretch, but a Water/Fighting/Fairy check (one that doesn't mind Scald) that can set up hazards and has good survivability to boot is probably enough to warrant C-. At the very least, its advantages are significant enough to differentiate itself from its main competition in Foongus/Ferroseed/Trubbish.

 

[kingmidas]

Mankey -> D
Venipede -> C-

Feel free to object to either of these changes. Even though Venipede hasn't really been discussed, it's been used to a fair degree of success by notable players for some time now.

The Gothita/Diglett nomination was much more controversial than I thought it would be, but I would rather that if they do get moved up, it'll be together. Of course Gothita has its own advantages and Diglett has other advantages, and specific teams will value one more than the other, but I don't think either is strictly better than the other on the average team; often, they play so similarly and are so comparably effective that they're almost interchangeable.

I'm not particularly for or against Snubbull moving at this point, but do keep in mind that even though it has more than enough power to give offensive and sometimes balanced teams a headache, it's still not super duper powerful, certainly not powerful enough to act as a wall-breaker unless it runs thief and two coverage moves. The standard set is outright unable to break through some of the most common defensive Pokemon, like Porygon, Foongus, and Ferroseed; even once Spritzee loses its Eviolite, Snubbull needs Stealth Rock to 2HKO with Play Rough.

What do you guys think of the Budew nomination? C may be a bit of a stretch, but a Water/Fighting/Fairy check (one that doesn't mind Scald) that can set up hazards and has good survivability to boot is probably enough to warrant C-. At the very least, its advantages are significant enough to differentiate itself from its main competition in Foongus/Ferroseed/Trubbish.

As someone who is writing the budew analysis, and has been testing it, I can say C/C+ is a good spot for it, its movepool is really cool, spikes, shadow ball, extrasensory, sleep powder, along with stabs and reliable recovery (two forms), it can choose what it can handle. While its bulk is good it is not strong enough to avoid 2HKOs from mons such as LO gastly, but the ability to check scarf and damage it with extrasensory/shadow ball is great. Also has a meh offensive set that has nice bulk still.

 

[tazz]

As someone who is writing the budew analysis, and has been testing it, I can say C/C+ is a good spot for it, its movepool is really cool, spikes, shadow ball, extrasensory, sleep powder, along with stabs and reliable recovery (two forms), it can choose what it can handle. While its bulk is good it is not strong enough to avoid 2HKOs from mons such as LO gastly, but the ability to check scarf and damage it with extrasensory/shadow ball is great. Also has a meh offensive set that has nice bulk still.

I stuggle to see how budew is as good as things in B+, as darumaka, lileep, etc hold larger niches than it does. I also stuggle to see how it is as good as teddiursa and tyrunt, which are in C. The problem with budew, in my opinion, is that its niche is just too specific. basically, if I need a grass/poison spike stacker, than it is the one for the job. But, more than often I can fill that spot on my team with trubbish/chespin/foongus, all of which compete for the spot on the team. Foongus has better longevity and reliable sleep, chespin walls gastly and bell sprout, two menaces to many teams, and trubbish can set up spikes while being a knock off absorber. All three of these have longevity and all three of these have (reasonable) bulk. Considering that many of the things in C and C+ have their own niche, I think budew is just too niche to warrant C or C+ and should go to C- instead.

 

[kingmidas]

I stuggle to see how budew is as good as things in B+, as darumaka, lileep, etc hold larger niches than it does. I also stuggle to see how it is as good as teddiursa and tyrunt, which are in C. The problem with budew, in my opinion, is that its niche is just too specific. basically, if I need a grass/poison spike stacker, than it is the one for the job. But, more than often I can fill that spot on my team with trubbish/chespin/foongus, all of which compete for the spot on the team. Foongus has better longevity and reliable sleep, chespin walls gastly and bell sprout, two menaces to many teams, and trubbish can set up spikes while being a knock off absorber. All three of these have longevity and all three of these have (reasonable) bulk. Considering that many of the things in C and C+ have their own niche, I think budew is just too niche to warrant C or C+ and should go to C- instead.

I said C+ not B+? I will admit that the other mons in the rank dictate part of the difficulty in raising to that but you can't compare them. Lileep is honestly a below average mon, and I'd like it lower, and I'd like darumaka higher, which I've tried to do several times. Teddiursa and tyrunt are also less effective than budew in doing their job. Tyrunt needs all fighters and most steels removed, and teddiursa hates all the priority in the tier. The C rank is for specific niches, look at all the mons you mentioned, scarfer (daru), SR setter that checks waters (lileep), teddiursa (late game cleaner that is honestly a poor mans carvanha) and tyrunt (Meh DD sweeper outclassed by most smashers and a decent SR setter). Trubbish is ass, diglett, archen, croagunk, drilbur, gothita/a whole ton of shit say hi. Chespin can't check fighters, and foongus doesn't know spikes. Sleep powder isn't even gonna be a slash on the analysis so its just a cool thing to maybe have. Budew checks fighters and gastly and bellsprout (extrasensory). Lets not discuss all the issues with trubbish again. All 3 hate status, unlike budew. Budews niche is its own, and its a pretty cool one.

 

[tazz]

I said C+ not B+? I will admit that the other mons in the rank dictate part of the difficulty in raising to that but you can't compare them. Lileep is honestly a below average mon, and I'd like it lower, and I'd like darumaka higher, which I've tried to do several times. Teddiursa and tyrunt are also less effective than budew in doing their job. Tyrunt needs all fighters and most steels removed, and teddiursa hates all the priority in the tier. The C rank is for specific niches, look at all the mons you mentioned, scarfer (daru), SR setter that checks waters (lileep), teddiursa (late game cleaner that is honestly a poor mans carvanha) and tyrunt (Meh DD sweeper outclassed by most smashers and a decent SR setter). Trubbish is ass, diglett, archen, croagunk, drilbur, gothita/a whole ton of shit say hi. Chespin can't check fighters, and foongus doesn't know spikes. Sleep powder isn't even gonna be a slash on the analysis so its just a cool thing to maybe have. Budew checks fighters and gastly and bellsprout (extrasensory). Lets not discuss all the issues with trubbish again. All 3 hate status, unlike budew. Budews niche is its own, and its a pretty cool one.

tbh, budew isn't even that good at checking most fighters, mienfoo will knock off and then taunt, making it less useful, timburr can knock off, severely hurting its bulk, and it's setup fodder for NP croagunk. (the first one of these examples is the most prominent). it's a cool niche, but it's not as prominent of a niche as teddiursa or tyrunt. all steel types being able to switch into it is really, really bad for it. And honestly, because of this it's often dead weight vs many offensive teams. I'll use the example of BA's web teams because that's one of the more prominent ones in the tier. surskit/mienfoo/pawniard/abra/gastly/archen. surskit has ice beam, which hurts it, mienfoo will knock it off on the switch, taunt it, then go to pawniard, pawniard lols, abra lols, gastly lols, archen lols. in this example of a very prominent offensive team, budew would be complete dead weight. It has its niche vs defensive poryspritz teams and things like that, but being dead weight vs HO and offense in general really hurts it, considering both tyrunt and teddiursa will be useful vs a variety of playstyles.

more stuff say hi to budew than trubbish tbh

 

[kingmidas]

tbh, budew isn't even that good at checking most fighters, mienfoo will knock off and then taunt, making it less useful, timburr can knock off, severely hurting its bulk, and it's setup fodder for NP croagunk. (the first one of these examples is the most prominent). it's a cool niche, but it's not as prominent of a niche as teddiursa or tyrunt. all steel types being able to switch into it is really, really bad for it. And honestly, because of this it's often dead weight vs many offensive teams. I'll use the example of BA's web teams because that's one of the more prominent ones in the tier. surskit/mienfoo/pawniard/abra/gastly/archen. surskit has ice beam, which hurts it, mienfoo will knock it off on the switch, taunt it, then go to pawniard, pawniard lols, abra lols, gastly lols, archen lols. in this example of a very prominent offensive team, budew would be complete dead weight. It has its niche vs defensive poryspritz teams and things like that, but being dead weight vs HO and offense in general really hurts it, considering both tyrunt and teddiursa will be useful vs a variety of playstyles.

more stuff say hi to budew than trubbish tbh

He can run extrasensory as I said, and the same could be said for foongus. I said a check, not a counter, by your logic foongus cannot check mienfoo either if it has taunt, and it can also lose to timburr if something else has been slept, and if you bring up clear smog or double poison steels wall it. This is a 6 mon game, and budew does what it does, spike while using its great bulk, you can make the claim ferro is a free switch in for fighters but it can still do its job, setting hazards. Budew can run hp fighting just like foongus can, and no shit a psychic type beats a poison type.Extrasensory>gastly, stop ignoring half of my post. Wow a flying type beats a grass type call the presses. Fighting types, pawn, and priority really hurt teddy and runt, I like the mons, I have tested them, and they have issues, so does budew but around the same. You clearly haven't tested budew and are running on bad hypothetical reasoning.

Edit: wrote on phone so might be a little redundant.

 

[Celestavian]

Hi it's dead here

Snubbull A- -> A
Corphish B -> B+
Cranidos B -> B-
Aipom B- -> B
Elekid B- -> B
Shellos B- -> C+

Looking at the current list, most of the Pokemon on it seem good where they're at, so I'm bringing up a few I feel deserve to move. Snubbull was mentioned earlier in the thread, and after using it, I think it's a good choice for A. It's a great switch-in for every physical threat in the metagame that isn't Pawniard thanks to Intimidate and lack of physical weaknesses outside of Iron Head and Gunk Shot, both rare moves on Pokemon that don't get STAB on them. It takes Knock Off like a champ thanks to its resistance to it, Intimidate, and Thief, and can threaten pretty much every user of it, from the obvious Fighting-types to Vullaby to the occasional Abra. It also hits pretty hard, has Thunder Wave for speed control, or can run Heal Bell and remove status from your team. 4MSS is not that big of a problem imo, I've found that Play Rough/EQ/Thief/TWave is a perfectly good moveset that hits everything in the tier for neutral damage with Play Rough and EQ besides Zubat and Bronzor. Corphish is pretty hard to switch into, and has one of the most powerful priority attacks in the tier, along with Knock Off support. It can put a good smacking on offensive teams with Dragon Dance, crush stall with Swords Dance, or pick apart balanced teams with Choice Band. Cranidos hits super hard, but it requires a lot of support to do its job properly, too much for me to consider it B. Aipom I feel is only in B- because of its noobish reputation, but with Eviolite its bulk is actually pretty good, and with LO it hits like a truck at 19 Speed. It's got Knock Off, U-turn, Skill Link + multi-hit move for STAB, and a few coverage options like Brick Break and Fire Punch that can KO otherwise good switch-ins like Pawniard or Ferroseed. Elekid is a pretty good Pokemon with or without Webs, good enough that it's on the same level as Pokemon like Onix or Scraggy. Shellos is pretty bad IMO, with its only real niche being a Sticky Hold tank. Even then, all it can really do once it's in is spam Scald and hope for burns. The only team support option it has is Memento, meaning its only job once its in is to fish for burns, wall some Fire-types, and then kill itself when its usefulness has expired.

 

[Anthiese]

Hi it's dead here

Snubbull A- -> A
Corphish B -> B+
Cranidos B -> B-
Aipom B- -> B
Elekid B- -> B
Shellos B- -> C+

Nice name change Hawkstar lol

Also agreeing with the Snubbull rise, things i liek about it are:

+ Nice Atk
+ Good coverage (Fairy / Ground is amazing as fudge)
+Great ability in Intimidate, helps out against physical mons (which it's supposed to deal with)
+ Heal Bell and TWave are excellent status moves that help it support the team
+ BJ + Thief gives it a nice amount of longevity

Elekid and Aipom are kind of going out of style since they used to be the greatest fastmons and now people are running bulkier threats and it's harder for them to cheese through teams. RIP.

Shellos wants to be so good but Pancham (while not everywhere is still a major detriment) as well as hard neutral hits, have pushed it down akin to Trubbish. sad to see you both go.

Cranidos is a bae but gods you are so damn reliant on Scarf or Webs to get places. I do like how hard it hits though.

Phish is a mixed bag for me. I dont have anything to say about it

 

[Jett]

Snubbull A- -> A

I agree with the Snubbull moving ranks. Some of it's notable moves are thunder wave/ play rough/ earthquake/ heal bell/ thief. It's probably one of the best physically defensive mons which can also do quite a bit of damage with decent coverage. Intimidate also helps making snubbull a great mon in general to counter some fighting mons. Fighting mons such as mienfoo, panhcam and timburr are pretty good in LC and Snubbull is the best counter to them.

Although Pawniard is quite a big threat due to defiant, which is the only reason i had to question Snubbull for it deserving A rank of A- .

Elekid B- -> B

Elekid used to be quite a big threat as it hit hard and is fast. I think it does deserve B as it can finish off the game easily if hazards are up and the opponent is slightly worn down. Elekid also has great coverage in terms of moves.

I do think Elekid does deserve B rank but it's outclassed due to the fact most people run bulkier pokemon which Elekid now struggles to wallbreak or sweep.

 

[Harvest God]

Chespin Low B ----> High B/Low A

This thing is more bulkier than timburr, good att, nice switch in into gastly. It has the ability to kill incoming fletchling, pony, and larvesta, it also kills pawniard with drain punch which is not common.

188+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

impressive :O

it literally kills a lot of mons. It is also prepared for archen and other ground types.

Seed Bomb/ Drain Punch / Stone Edge / Bulk Up or Substitute is a good set

 

[The Avalanches]

Chespin Low B ----> High B/Low A

This thing is more bulkier than timburr, good att, nice switch in into gastly. It has the ability to kill incoming fletchling, pony, and larvesta, it also kills pawniard with drain punch which is not common.

188+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

impressive :O

it literally kills a lot of mons. It is also prepared for archen and other ground types.

Seed Bomb/ Drain Punch / Stone Edge / Bulk Up or Substitute is a good set

You are vastly overselling Chespin's capabilities here. Chespin is B- because its ability allows it to check stuff like Gastly, Foongus, and Bellsprout, it also has decent defenses and is no slouch offensively.

I don't believe your Stone Edge calc is relevant, as Chespin has no reason to run Adamant with maximum investment, nor would it be facing a sub-standard Ponyta with no defensive investment. Even then, catching it by surprise with a Stone Edge, a move Chespin foregoes for Rock Slide in most instances, doesn't speak for Chespin's viability.

Chespin can only catch most of the Pokemon you've mentioned by surprise. If you mispredict or they come in for free, they have a field day against Chespin.

 

[Harvest God]

;-; chespin is bae, it rly is good but i understand it rly isnt tht killing type

 

[Anthiese]

The only thing Chespin is getting recognition for is walling the likes of Bellsprout, Gastly, Foongus while setting up Bulk Up to get places attack wise. While I agree it's bae, it's still suffering from having to set up to deal actual damage and it needs to not be statused as well. Plus Grass is a bad defensive typing. Lastly, Rock type moves are common on the Bulk Up set since it does mash Fires and Birds who both wanna shit on Chespin's parade but once again it has to set up and not be stuck being 2HKOd for it to get places. Leave it where it's at.

 

[Rowan]

3 attacks chespin is legit man, seed bomb, drain punch, rock tomb (run 13 speed 2hko pony after rocks). I find it's coverage and unique set of pokemon it checks makes it a really solid choice on bulky offense teams. Unfortunately has a bit of 4mss because it needs 3 attacks to be an offensive threat, which means forgoing spikes or bulk up.

Bulk up makes an okay wincon but does make it worse in the early midgame so it's not really worth it imo. But yeah, with 3 attacks I think it's good enough for B due to it's unique abilities making it a good pick/glue mon on the right teams

 

[TUO]

I am here once again to make a post, fiddling around with the subdivisions of the A-rank. I so far have a 100% success rate on my posts in these threads, so this time I am going to make an argument for Spritzee to go to A+. A+ is the tier where all the cool kids are, so one might think that A+ wouldn't be a rank welcome to puny fairies with limited offensive presence (since the cool kids dont have very calm minds). However, I believe that Spritzee being A+ is not WISHful thinking. TUO'S ON FIRE WITH ANOTHER PUNyta, which is a check to this mon :((((. (in hindsight, i could have gone for PUNYta, but i just go with the flow, also this does not mean I am against Pony's viability rank, ponies are for cool kids too.)

Spritzee is really rising in the metagame, and was the 10th most used Pokemon in ORAS LC during SPLC. Out of the top 10 pokemon used, it also had the highest winrate. Note there are currently 10 pokemon in A+ and S, 2 in S while 8 are in A+. There is a reason that Spritzee is used so often (and tbh should be used even MORE often). Unlike Pokemon like Fletchling, Gastly, and Hippopotas, Spritzee is not limited to offense or stall. Spritzee has been and can be used properly in many different playstyles (except something like HO lol). The ability to pass massive wishes while resisting both Fighting and Dark-type attacks is something that both offensive teams and defensive teams would love to have, as well as being a secondary check to some sweepers like Vanha and Fletch.

Spritzee is also really good meta-wise. Hawkstar just recently made a post supporting Snubbull for A, because of how helpful it is to have a fairy-type pivot like that. Hawkstar mentioned how having an anti-status mechanism along with being able to check the physically-biased meta is something that is very much welcome in the meta, and that is something that Spritzee offers while offering wishes, as well as being able to be placed on both offensive and defensive teams without feeling so outclassed. Spritz also pretty good synergy with other pivots and defensive mons, namely Porygon and Ferroseed, while also having good synergy with offensive mons like Pawn, or anything that doesnt like fighting/dark, or something that appreciates anti-status and/or Wish. When you think about pokemon that benefit from what spritz has to offer, thats a lot of mons.

I haven't even touched on CM set, which lets it be a nice little secondary sweeper while making a nice core with arena trap dig, another mon that is going to rise in viability rankings sometime.

Add that to the idea that Spritzee's checks are either weak to Rocks or Fighting-type moves, which are very common sights in the meta, and you got yourself a mon that represents the color pink very, very well.

 

[Celestavian]

I am here once again to make a post, fiddling around with the subdivisions of the A-rank. I so far have a 100% success rate on my posts in these threads, so this time I am going to make an argument for Spritzee to go to A+. A+ is the tier where all the cool kids are, so one might think that A+ wouldn't be a rank welcome to puny fairies with limited offensive presence (since the cool kids dont have very calm minds). However, I believe that Spritzee being A+ is not WISHful thinking. TUO'S ON FIRE WITH ANOTHER PUNyta, which is a check to this mon :((((. (in hindsight, i could have gone for PUNYta, but i just go with the flow, also this does not mean I am against Pony's viability rank, ponies are for cool kids too.)

Spritzee is really rising in the metagame, and was the 10th most used Pokemon in ORAS LC during SPLC. Out of the top 10 pokemon used, it also had the highest winrate. Note there are currently 10 pokemon in A+ and S, 2 in S while 8 are in A+. There is a reason that Spritzee is used so often (and tbh should be used even MORE often). Unlike Pokemon like Fletchling, Gastly, and Hippopotas, Spritzee is not limited to offense or stall. Spritzee has been and can be used properly in many different playstyles (except something like HO lol). The ability to pass massive wishes while resisting both Fighting and Dark-type attacks is something that both offensive teams and defensive teams would love to have, as well as being a secondary check to some sweepers like Vanha and Fletch.

Spritzee is also really good meta-wise. Hawkstar just recently made a post supporting Snubbull for A, because of how helpful it is to have a fairy-type pivot like that. Hawkstar mentioned how having an anti-status mechanism along with being able to check the physically-biased meta is something that is very much welcome in the meta, and that is something that Spritzee offers while offering wishes, as well as being able to be placed on both offensive and defensive teams without feeling so outclassed. Spritz also pretty good synergy with other pivots and defensive mons, namely Porygon and Ferroseed, while also having good synergy with offensive mons like Pawn, or anything that doesnt like fighting/dark, or something that appreciates anti-status and/or Wish. When you think about pokemon that benefit from what spritz has to offer, thats a lot of mons.

I haven't even touched on CM set, which lets it be a nice little secondary sweeper while making a nice core with arena trap dig, another mon that is going to rise in viability rankings sometime.

Add that to the idea that Spritzee's checks are either weak to Rocks or Fighting-type moves, which are very common sights in the meta, and you got yourself a mon that represents the color pink very, very well.

Spritzee to A+ is a change I've opposed before, and I've seen no reason here to make me change my belief. Before I get into why, I'd like to ask what SPLC win rate has to do with anything. The win rates are untrustworthy because of two things: the team nature of the game and the fact that both players can use the same Pokemon. In a 6v6, every Pokemon on the winning team gets a win, and same with the losing squad, with no consideration given to performance in that game. Whether Spritzee tanks half of the opponent's team or eats a crit Gunk Shot and does nothing, there is no difference so long as the team with Spritzee on it wins. Also, since both players can use the same Pokemon, that means that one Spritzee wins and one doesn't when it is present on both sides. How is that useful in determining who should be A+ or not?

Meta-wise, it's still a fantastic physical wall, and annoys Fighting-types to no end. Spritzee's biggest problem is that it gives out free turns like candy on Halloween. Between Wish, Protect, Aromatherapy, and the fact that it saps your team's momentum heavily, your opponent has plenty of turns to make a switch, set up hazards or boosts, or heal themselves while Spritzee is busy not hitting them. This makes it ill-suited for anything but stall and defensive balance teams, and from my experience using it, I find it too much of a load to bear for use on more offensive teams. If Spritzee is the bulkiest member of your team, those free turns become a problem quickly. Spritzee has great synergy with Pokemon like Ferroseed or Porygon, but I'd say it's more like it relies on those two Pokemon, because when not paired with one of those two, I find Spritzee lacking.

Another one of Spritzee's biggest flaws is its reliance on Wish. Sure, you can heal your teammates with it, but doing so basically guarantees that Spritzee will be too weakened to do its job next time. After all, you are taking hazard damage plus any damage dealt to Spritzee as it uses Wish, and even if it's only 26%, that's a 3HKO after two rounds of SR. For example, Porygon's Psychic deals 7 HP to Spritzee without a Download boost, which is certainly not much. However, if you pass a Wish and then try to switch into Psychic later in the game while SR is up, Spritzee is KOed by two more Psychics and those two rounds of SR. Passing a Wish after taking a hit means Spritzee is basically dead unless you manage to get it in on a Timburr or something. When you pass a Wish to your teammate, you are also giving up 2 turns with absolutely no damage dealt to your opponent besides hazards. As for healing Spritzee itself with Wish, the delayed healing is almost always a detriment except in fringe cases such as stalling out Guts Taillow or something.

CM Spritzee seems like a great sweeper on paper, but in practice it's underwhelming. At the risk of sounding fanboyish, Timburr really is the gold standard that bulky boosters need to reach, and Spritzee doesn't cut it. To make a sweep, Spritzee needs its Eviolite and it needs to be at mostly full health, which means that its role as a wall directly compromises its sweeping chances. It cannot sweep and wall in the same game, and while Timburr can't do that either, its immediate power gives it an advantage over Spritzee. It has only one attacking move, which means it can't be useful until Poison-, Fire-, and Steel-types are gone, especially since it lacks Knock Off or priority to chip away at things when its checks are still alive like Timburr can. Spritzee lacks immediate power, making it reliant on boosts to deal large amounts of damage. Most importantly, it can't recover health while attacking at the same time. This is what makes Timburr shine as a sweeper, and this is where Spritzee falls flat. Without Draining Kiss (which makes Spritzee's lack of immediate power even worse), Spritzee is forced to stop boosting or dealing damage to heal itself, and also has to dedicate a slot to Protect to prevent it from taking more damage than it can heal off the next turn.

Not being A+ material does not preclude Spritzee from being a fantastic wall. It does its job well and if there's any one Pokemon that causes me no end of grief in battle, it's Spritzee. It sits on the edge of A and A+, but it just doesn't have that extra oomph to make it in. If I had to make a comparison with anything in A+, it would be Porygon, since they both serve as bulky walls with recovery and some team support. What pushes Porygon into A+ is its more immediate recovery and much higher power, while being able to be fit on a larger variety of teams than Spritzee. It's a great wall, but it's definitely not A+.