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Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
- Status
+3 252+ SpA Yanma Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klinklang: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
specially bulkiest non-neutral steel type. the only mons that counter
-Oblivion Wing
-Tail Glow
-Ancient Power
-HP fire
are bastiodon and probopass.
specially bulkiest non-neutral steel type. the only mons that counter
-Oblivion Wing
-Tail Glow
-Ancient Power
-HP fire
are bastiodon and probopass.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
the problem is the only steel types in nu are klinklang(self explanatory), probopass/bastio(oh...right they exist), mawile...(lmao when you learn how to use it effectively let me know) and wormadam(oblivion wing makes work out of it)
back to normal stabmons, i want to bring up something both me and klang have been abusing: darkrai. klang has been using the classic choice specs with void set. but i decided to try the classic nasty plot set...and man is it a beaut.
Darkrai @ Wide Lens
Ability: Bad Dreams
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Nasty Plot
- Night Daze
- Sludge Bomb
W...WHAT...why are you using wide lens! well ill tell you, i love not missing, and i love faking my sets. see, with lens, it fakes a choice item if i switch out, and allthough scarf darkrai sounds awful, it has the movepool to be viable...and now heres the next part, the main reason i use it. i prefer having a 100% accurate night daze over a 20% boosted dark pulse...because although 5 less accuracy, it has a whopping 40% chance of lowering accuracy, making it even HARDER to stop darkrai once it gets rolling. and lastly, 88% accurate dark void is definately a nice thing to have basically sacred fires accuracy which is much better then stone edges. if you want, darkglasses can be used, or life orb/lefties, but i feel like darkrai benifits from wide lens enough for it to be an option for use without being "outclassed".
and yes. i did the math for their accuracy. so don't tell me i'm wrong. lmao.
1.1 x 95=104.5
1.1 x 80=88
Beat Lcass4919 on a close, haxy match.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-226038158
Bonus: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-226043521
Clicked "Look for Battle" on STABmons before I could even realize that the same STABmons NU team I battled lcass with was selected. And the server, the douche as it is, assigned me a match almost immediately.
Out #skill -ed Eevee General
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-226048111
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-226038158
Bonus: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-226043521
Clicked "Look for Battle" on STABmons before I could even realize that the same STABmons NU team I battled lcass with was selected. And the server, the douche as it is, assigned me a match almost immediately.
Out #skill -ed Eevee General
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-226048111
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xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Why are all the stabmons NU matches Haxy af? Back when I played lcass in NU all 4 matches were full of hax and it makes no sense.
Showdown is the best thing ever.
Wow, thanks to your replay for telling me about the aegislash suspect test!
EV
Banned deucer.
Should Mega Aerodactyl be banned?
- If you are in favor of banning a suspect, please provide examples of why they are unhealthy for the metagame with replays, calcs, anecdotes explaining their over-centralization, lack of true checks/counters, etc.
- If you are not in favor of a ban, please provide the examples of how they are reliably checked/countered by other Pokemon that can still function well in STABmons.
- Posts that fail to explain their reasoning will be moderated. Basically, don't just say "LOLOLOL heeeell naaaah!" or "OMFG yessss kill itttt!". Explain why.
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InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
NOOOOOOOO icrievrytiem D:
Not sure about Mega Aero right now, I'll post my thoughts later
Reposting from convo:
RIP Frontier. I didn't even get to beat Lcass since the Yanma ban. :/
Alright my thoughts on Mega Aero. Gonna say straight up that I want it banned:
I'll talk about the Head Smash + Dragon Ascent + Earthquake + Crunch/Substitute/Roost set.
Vs Offense:
- Blazing fast, outspeeds pretty much every offensive threat not named mega aero
- Can pretty much OHKO everything with its powerful STABs
- Resists Fakespeed
- Actually has longevity if you use roost.
- The only things that beat this are bullet punch, ice shard, aqua jet, and random scarfers. Random scarfers lose all the advantage they have if your opponent knows that you're scarfed, so that leaves weak priority. Simply put, a well played mega aerodactyl can beat any team almost singlehandedly.
- Really, what more needs to be said?
Vs Defense/Stall:
- Literally nothing switches in. Nothing. No. thing. Well, maybe mega steelix and mega aggron. But why would you run those when you can just run Mega Aerodactyl as a cleaner?
- Of course, Aerodactyl won't always be played correctly. But the point is, the fact that it easily gets rid of so much of the meta while still having no counters makes it broken.
- Honestly, when your best chance of beating it involves Mega Aerodactyl stalling itself to death with recoil damage from head smash, something is wrong.
Another thing is that over half of its checks get trapped by magnet pull.
Disadvantages
- Weak to bullet punch and ice shard and aqua jet, three common priority moves
- Stealth rock weakness
- Is there even a third disadvantage?
I'll talk about the Head Smash + Dragon Ascent + Earthquake + Crunch/Substitute/Roost set.
Vs Offense:
- Blazing fast, outspeeds pretty much every offensive threat not named mega aero
- Can pretty much OHKO everything with its powerful STABs
- Resists Fakespeed
- Actually has longevity if you use roost.
- The only things that beat this are bullet punch, ice shard, aqua jet, and random scarfers. Random scarfers lose all the advantage they have if your opponent knows that you're scarfed, so that leaves weak priority. Simply put, a well played mega aerodactyl can beat any team almost singlehandedly.
- Really, what more needs to be said?
Vs Defense/Stall:
- Literally nothing switches in. Nothing. No. thing. Well, maybe mega steelix and mega aggron. But why would you run those when you can just run Mega Aerodactyl as a cleaner?
- Of course, Aerodactyl won't always be played correctly. But the point is, the fact that it easily gets rid of so much of the meta while still having no counters makes it broken.
- Honestly, when your best chance of beating it involves Mega Aerodactyl stalling itself to death with recoil damage from head smash, something is wrong.
Another thing is that over half of its checks get trapped by magnet pull.
Disadvantages
- Weak to bullet punch and ice shard and aqua jet, three common priority moves
- Stealth rock weakness
- Is there even a third disadvantage?
Mega aerodactyl has very few counters, basically some physically defensive steels and thats it. It outspeeds everything except for scarfers and has insane power with dragon ascent, let alone its nuke button head smash. It 2hkos physically defensive benchmark pokemon such as landorus-t, quagsire, ferrothorn and skarmory. It can also choose to run taunt allowing it to beat passive pokemon such as skarmory without even needing to predict the switch. It also resists common forms of priority, namely fakespeed. Just totally broken. BAN imo.
Why do I get the feeling that this has something to do with my Frontier match with TEG?
Also, RIP Frontier.
I am neutral. But if it does get banned, let me remind that it will be a further addition to the already long list of mons that are banned because they're offensive and/or can also handle Stall.
Aero M is once again the case of movesets. It has the potential to break the entire Metagame with the right moves, but of course, it can't run them all at once.
Aggron M is a counter, that can also revenge it. But of course it doesn't have longevity. Steelix M should also find itself in this position soon. But the lack of recovery doesn't make them bad counters. They can just Sleep off two turns, while Aero M fails to damage them a lot in those turns.
Aegislash is among the chief of its checks. If Aero M doesn't run EQ, Aegislash wins 1v1. KS + Doom Desire hurts more than just the prehistoric bird.
Ferrothorn is a shaky check, but not if you consider the fact that it has numerous support options in Leech Seed, KS, Spore, Synthesis etc., to get the best of Aero M, not to mention the evil Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs combo. Since Aero M is too quick, Ferro's Gyro Ball is always going to hit at full power, preventing any chance of Roosting up damage on its face.
Landorus-T is among the most unreliable of its checks, but it packs a punch itself and can KO with Stone Edge with a small investment in Attack.
The biggest downfall of Aero M is that it doesn't usually set up. Sableye survives a +0 burned DA and can the switch out to a wall of its choice. Sableye also prevents any pink blobs from healing it up. You don't want to be burned and also be weak to SR. You just don't.
Revenging options are limited to Banded BP Scizor and Ice Shard Kyurem B. But if you turn the tables around, Aero M can't handle setup sweepers once they're setup.
That's all I've to say. I'm not in favor of Banning or Not Banning. Since the council decides it finally anyway, I only ask that they read my post and consider it.
Also, RIP Frontier.
I am neutral. But if it does get banned, let me remind that it will be a further addition to the already long list of mons that are banned because they're offensive and/or can also handle Stall.
Aero M is once again the case of movesets. It has the potential to break the entire Metagame with the right moves, but of course, it can't run them all at once.
Aggron M is a counter, that can also revenge it. But of course it doesn't have longevity. Steelix M should also find itself in this position soon. But the lack of recovery doesn't make them bad counters. They can just Sleep off two turns, while Aero M fails to damage them a lot in those turns.
Aegislash is among the chief of its checks. If Aero M doesn't run EQ, Aegislash wins 1v1. KS + Doom Desire hurts more than just the prehistoric bird.
Ferrothorn is a shaky check, but not if you consider the fact that it has numerous support options in Leech Seed, KS, Spore, Synthesis etc., to get the best of Aero M, not to mention the evil Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs combo. Since Aero M is too quick, Ferro's Gyro Ball is always going to hit at full power, preventing any chance of Roosting up damage on its face.
Landorus-T is among the most unreliable of its checks, but it packs a punch itself and can KO with Stone Edge with a small investment in Attack.
The biggest downfall of Aero M is that it doesn't usually set up. Sableye survives a +0 burned DA and can the switch out to a wall of its choice. Sableye also prevents any pink blobs from healing it up. You don't want to be burned and also be weak to SR. You just don't.
Revenging options are limited to Banded BP Scizor and Ice Shard Kyurem B. But if you turn the tables around, Aero M can't handle setup sweepers once they're setup.
That's all I've to say. I'm not in favor of Banning or Not Banning. Since the council decides it finally anyway, I only ask that they read my post and consider it.
I'm not really sure I believe this is fair. Mega Aerodactyl decimates offense, which can't afford to run Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Ferrothorn, and defensive Landorus-T. Besides, Taunt smacks all of these Pokemon hard anyways, and Mega Aerodactyl can even 2HKO Landorus-T with Head Smash, so there's that. Aegislash is a solid check, but you can't forget that Earthquake is a common move. Head Smash seems to be becoming a bit more used fsr, and Sableye happens to be 2HKOed by it even while Burned! @_@. Sableye hates Taunt as well. Funnily enough, Kyurem-Black's Ice Shard is unlikely to OHKO, though it has a chance. Mega Aerodactyl walks over offense, and puts a number in versus stall as well. Comparing it strictly to stall, the more uncommon of the two, seems iffy.
Is anyone particulary shocked that there are several broken offensive threats in STABmons? Its kind naive to think expanding movepools like this isn't going to lead to several banworthy pokemon, especially with Megas. Not to mention that Mega Aerodactyl destroys both stall and offense pretty easily. Also it takes very few moves for Mega Aerodactyl to "break the metagame." Mainly Head Smash/Dragon Ascent. In fact what is the only type that resists both? That would be Steels. Which excluding Lando-T, all listed Pokemon were Steel type. And after calcing this, i can see why its to unreliable.
-1 244+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 187-222 (48.9 - 58.1%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
IMO Kyu-B should have been suspected this round, not Dactyl, but they both need ban. If you need other arguments see aesf's post
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Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
haha no. Nice try being "subtle" about your "neutrality". Mega Aero is being suspected because neither stall nor offense can reliably counter Aerodactyl. The only things that can strictly counter it are Bronzong, Steelix-Mega, and Aggron-Mega, none of which have reliable recovery, and none of which are extremely useful (I'd say Aggron would be the most viable out of those). Lack of reliable recovery makes them much more susceptible being worn down by other threats on the team besides Aero. And as Kingslayer said, why are you even upset that things are getting banned because they're offensive? They're banned because they're broken. It just happens that there's much more broken offensive threats than defensive threats in STABmons (who would have guessed).
EV
Banned deucer.
N-no. Did you sweep me with MAero?
The "TEG only bans what he loses to" meme was started by unfixable as a cruel, cruel joke. There is no truth to it except the single replay from forever ago where I lost to GeoKiss and threw a tantrum and then suspected it in the thread.
But seriously, the council has to "second" a suspect nomination, so it's not all on me. And they can tell you (I hope) I try to remain as impartial as possible in all suspect discussion. My job is to focus on facts. And we do take the threads comments into consideration, hence why we leave the discussion open for a minimum of a week.
If anyone wants to see our process/protocol, I'm happy to share it.
I thought he was talking about the frontier ending.
EV
Banned deucer.
Oh well that's because half the members quit and I don't want to remake it for a third time. I liked this setup a lot, but it relies on the activity of the members, so I'd rather they focus on our council duties first.
canno
formerly The Reptile
I agree with everything but this. Offensive teams can definitely run defensive lando-t - its probably like the 3rd best normie check (m-aero is number 2 and aegi is number 1 imho) and just pivots very well.
That said, I honeslty think M-Aero hurts offense a lot more than stall (not to say stall has an easy time). Yes M-Aero can destroy stall but so can a lot of things. The thing is M-Aero is way too fast for offense to handle, and it resists the most common way to beat fast threats (FakeSpeed). Its also bulky enough to survive hits it shouldnt and its so strong, not to mention 2 of the best if not the best offense STABs you can get (and the better one is boosted by TC)
Ill post more later but I have class in like 10 mins lmao
Why is Ferrothorn not being discussed? At full investment, it must only be 3HKOed. And it KOs right back with Gyro Ball.
If Aero M decides, it can heal back damage and even set up SR. Plus Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet hurts.
Also, unless Aero M KOes through a burn, Sableye can Parting Shot out to a wall and that's that.
If Aero M decides, it can heal back damage and even set up SR. Plus Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet hurts.
Also, unless Aero M KOes through a burn, Sableye can Parting Shot out to a wall and that's that.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 255-301 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 316-373 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm kind of curious as to how Sableye successfully switches in. With Stealth Rock -which Aerodactyl can set- Dragon Ascent becomes a 75% chance of a OHKO, assuming no other prior damage.
You also haven't named anything other than stallmons as checks, and in Sableye's case you're assuming there's another stallmon in the wings. Part of the premise here is that Mega Aerodactyl is not something Hyper Offense can meaningfully handle, nor that Balance has good answers for. Even if your arguments are a compelling case that stall can take it, they say nothing about other playstyles, and in fact implicitly suggest that Mega Aerodactyl largely invalidates non-stall playstyles, since stall choices are only barely able to check it, out of the limited set of choices that work at all.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 316-373 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm kind of curious as to how Sableye successfully switches in. With Stealth Rock -which Aerodactyl can set- Dragon Ascent becomes a 75% chance of a OHKO, assuming no other prior damage.
You also haven't named anything other than stallmons as checks, and in Sableye's case you're assuming there's another stallmon in the wings. Part of the premise here is that Mega Aerodactyl is not something Hyper Offense can meaningfully handle, nor that Balance has good answers for. Even if your arguments are a compelling case that stall can take it, they say nothing about other playstyles, and in fact implicitly suggest that Mega Aerodactyl largely invalidates non-stall playstyles, since stall choices are only barely able to check it, out of the limited set of choices that work at all.
EV
Banned deucer.
100% support Ghoul King 's above statement. I prefer bulky offense/balance, and I have a really hard time teambuilding around MAero. I've stopped played actually, because I don't want to run Bronzong/Mega Aggron or fully defensive Aegislash on every team. 252/252+ Aegi is better suited for stall. On bulky offense it usually carries some HP investment, but the rest should go into an offensive stat or even Speed to run Shift Gear.
Then there's 252/252+ Ferrothorn, a subpar set in my eyes because I think it goes farther with a Special Defense investment to check Greninja and other threats better.
Skarmory, a premier wall I have run on balance teams, is soundly 2HKO'd by Head Smash at full defensive investment. So when I have to sub Skarmory for something shittier like Zong or Mega Aggron (eats up my mega slot), my preferred playstyle becomes less viable. Mega Aero is actually tilting the metagame toward stall because of its presence. But even then it can beat stall with Taunt!
Then there's 252/252+ Ferrothorn, a subpar set in my eyes because I think it goes farther with a Special Defense investment to check Greninja and other threats better.
Skarmory, a premier wall I have run on balance teams, is soundly 2HKO'd by Head Smash at full defensive investment. So when I have to sub Skarmory for something shittier like Zong or Mega Aggron (eats up my mega slot), my preferred playstyle becomes less viable. Mega Aero is actually tilting the metagame toward stall because of its presence. But even then it can beat stall with Taunt!
So you're telling me that Checks and Counters are not usually Stall mons? Last time I checked, they were.
We've already established that there are no true Counters to Aero M, no denying that, but this is the case with movesets. Lack of one move may open up a solid Check. And Head Smash takes away 50% HP as recoil. That's huge, especially if you're already taking Rocky Helmet damage. Diamond Storm is the more consistent option and most players will opt for it.
And 252/252+ Def Ferrothorn checks more than just Aero M with KS and Leech Seed.
I call bullshit with the playstyles argument. Say, I want to build a HO Shell Smash team. FakeSpeed invalidates it. That doesn't mean FakeSpeeding is OP and can't be handled.
We've already established that there are no true Counters to Aero M, no denying that, but this is the case with movesets. Lack of one move may open up a solid Check. And Head Smash takes away 50% HP as recoil. That's huge, especially if you're already taking Rocky Helmet damage. Diamond Storm is the more consistent option and most players will opt for it.
And 252/252+ Def Ferrothorn checks more than just Aero M with KS and Leech Seed.
I call bullshit with the playstyles argument. Say, I want to build a HO Shell Smash team. FakeSpeed invalidates it. That doesn't mean FakeSpeeding is OP and can't be handled.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
What does this even mean?
- Status