ORAS Ubers "Stall Isn't Bad, It's Hard"

[Malley]

... jk it's pretty bad as well. Fuck ORAS. But match-up is a thing, so it's still not dead.

I made this team because I was tired of going through the same thought process against every team I faced - sleep fodder vs. Darkrai, switch Latias in on Groudon, switch my own fucking Mence in on Mega Mence and pray. Every battle came down to a couple of 50/50s, and it was just fucking dull. I wanted to control the game, and when I lost know how I had lost. I knew stall was bad when I made it, but it was also a bollock-load more fun. Just think about that sentence.

The team isn't mad original, but it checks the metagame pretty well and that's all it was made for. No ladder peak, because hax makes stall laddering shit, but I won a tour with it and have beaten some strong players so yeah. It's a decent team.

Teambuilding

The teambuilding process for this team was simple as hell. I knew I wanted Ho-Oh, just because I'd hardly seen it on stall and wanted to try something new.

Obviously for Ho-Oh (and stall in general) you need good hazard control, and Mega Sableye is Mega Sableye.

Secondary hazard control had to be something that could clear in the face of Primal Groudon, the most common setter by far. First I went with Waterceus, but then when I finished the team Dilwar pointed out that it was literally Donkey stall with Ho-Oh, so that didn't happen. I went with Groundceus instead, which also beats Diancie and Excadrill. Ground is just an incredible type in general in this meta.

After this it was just about patching up holes. Primal Kyogre is a threatening breaker, and Ferrothorn is a strong counter and overall good stallmon that also gets rocks. EZ

E-Killer and Mence.

Finally I needed a cleric. I already had CM Arceus and E-Killer largely handled, and Ogre and Xerneas could pressure my team since I only had one check to each, so I chose Blissey because stall is stall. SkarmBliss ftw

In Depth

Hooch (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 SpD
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Recover
- Toxic
- Whirlwind

Basically RIP stallbreaker Arceus. Neutral +4 252 SpAtk Judgment only has a 30% chance to KO, and nothing's going to get that high vs. this team. As I said, I started with this because I was theorymonning on a bus and realised that with a 50%=100% chance to burn, reliable recovery, insane special bulk, and a phasing move this thing could basically be Jesus incarnate. Turns out I was right. Sacred Fire is incredibly spammable; most notably, it shuts down other stallbreakers as well, like physically defensive Yveltal. The main problem is the PP, meaning I most often lose in stall wars, but to be honest there's no way I can cater for that as well. EVs are pretty simple - 248 HP and 52 SpD to live a +2 Thunder from Xerneas, the rest in physical bulk because Ho-Oh is specially bulky enough already.

Lafayette (Sableye) @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fake Out/Taunt
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play

This hardly needs explaining to be honest. Physical bulk maximised because this is primarily for Groudon and Arceus. Recover, Will-O-Wisp, and Foul Play because I'm not a fucking idiot. Fake Out vs. Taunt comes down to which threat you want to deal with best - Fake Out lets you mega freely vs. Groudon, Xerneas, Diancie etc. before switching, and also sometimes lets you scout for sets; Taunt is safer, as it shuts down Darkrai and SD/RP Groudon shenanigans, but does mean Sableye is often too low to switch in later in the match. This is almost always my lead, especially if I'm running Fake Out, even though it's stupidly obvious. Stall isn't about dem predicts.

Secretaries (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Judgment
- Ice Beam/Stone Edge
- Recover

>clear rocks
>heal up
>gtfo
Seriously this team is so simple. There is almost never a situation when I can't switch this into Groudon - nothing much pressures it, and I can recover off random dracos or whatever. EVd to reach 330 Spe, which catches any regular Mence trying to set up or revenge, while also allowing Groundceus to clean pretty well. Stone Edge is an option over Ice Beam to keep out Ho-Oh, which is a threat, but Ice Beam is more useful late game, and I don't have much else for dragons. Earthquake for Judgment would be a terrible idea.

Forgotten (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock

Leech Seed + Protect stalls out non-Calm Mind Kyogre, and Leech Seed + Blissey stalls out CM. Decent mixed wall as well, which in conjunction with Ho-Oh can deal with physically- or specially-biased mixed Life Orb Yveltal. Ferro takes physical, Ho-Oh takes special (I think - got the calcs somewhere). Also good utility and general annoyance. Ferro do what Ferro do.

Signatory (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Roost

Physical attacker comes in. Skarmory comes in. Physical attacker leaves. Skarm walls Mence, E-Killer, SD Ghostceus, SD Groundceus, and non-fire-move Groudon. It's just so fucking clutch. Whirlwind and Toxic are necessary because it has no attacking moves, Roost is obvious, and Spikes over Brave Bird because Skarm isn't going to be doing much damage anyway. Pretty easy stuff.

Bloody (Blissey) (F) @ Shed Shell/Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss/Thunder Wave

The pink shit is pretty self explanatory - it walls special attackers, and generally does clericy things. Seismic Toss vs. Thunder Wave comes down to general pressure vs. specific threat-checking. I run Seismic Toss at the moment because I have little enough offensive pressure anyway, but since Darkrai is a problem and Xerneas can actually Geomancy multiple times vs. Blissey, Thunder Wave might be best. When I made this I gave Blissey Shed Shell, since I wanted to cover all bases (i.e. having a Gengar-proof team), but on the ladder I use Leftovers because you just don't get Gengars around. I think I'd always run shell in tour matches, but it does limit Blissey's walling potential.

Threatlist

- My main answer to Ho-Oh is my own Ho-Oh, which does not take hits well. Banded variants are okay, since Skarm can take Brave Birds, but Life Orb is more problematic. This is where Stone Edge on Groundceus would help.

and

- Full coverage + Psystrike means that I have nothing to counter these two. If I see these at team preview I have to keep Sableye at full health until they come in, then hit them with a Foul Play immediately. MMY dies, but regular Mewtwo only takes 60-70%, which is pretty shit. It dies eventually, but it takes a shitload of souls down with it.

- And anything else with Refresh or Aromatherapy that can launch a last 'mon sweep. Mence is just the most threatening because it's the most broken. This is where Ice Beam on Groundceus is good.

- Darkrai is a problem if it's played well, because it can force a series of 50/50s (or 33/33/33s I guess) between Nasty Plotting, Dark Pulsing, and Dark Voiding. A healthy Sableye is vital for this match-up.

- This one isn't so much about Arceus as about any physical attacker that packs a random Fire Blast to bop Skarmory. I just chose E-Killer because that's what iampie got me with in testing.

So yeah there are a lot of threats, but that's because it's ORAS Ubers and I'm using stall. None of them 6-0s me, and I can play around them.

Shout outs

Bartimaeus - Even though you don't use Smogon, for testing and talking Pokémon and basically being extremely chill.
iampie - For testing and making me finally realise that stall is basically shit.
magsyy - For testing a previous version and putting me onto the idea of Skarm.
Disaster Area/Piexplode (kek can't tag) - For trying to fix this cesspit of a tier.
Unwanted - For once telling me I was a good builder.
Edgar - For actually taking the time to encourage me, out of the blue.
Lord Outrage - For being approachable when I was still using Ditto, and teaching me to build good teams.
Antacool - For being a far better player than I to make weird-ass stall properly work on the ladder.

TL;DR: fuck Ubers I'ma go play RU​

 

[haxiom]

Hey Malley,

This stall build is pretty interesting. You hit a lot of the weaknesses I was going to mention in the threatlist, but yeah Ho-Oh is a massive weakness, since it free-switches on over half the team and you don't have any real solid answers for it. A bunch of pokemon (Darkrai and Mewtwo from your threatlist) will put a ton of pressure on Sableye, in addition to pressures of having to keep rocks off your side and so forth. Another Water-resist would be nice for Kyogre, but I mean its manageable for the most part.

I have a few suggestions. I might try running Water Arceus over Ground Arceus, and Lugia over Skarmory. This importantly allows you to deal with Ho-Oh much more easily, while providing a secondary Water-resist for Kyogre. I think Skarmory and Ferrothorn are a bit redundant and stack some common weaknesses which doesn't benefit this team. This means you lose Spikes though, which is unfortunate. Secondly, I suggest running a spread of 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SDef with a Bold Nature, which lets you better take on Mewtwo (can't 2HKO you assuming you play a good hazards game). These changes don't make your team perfect, but it's a bit better in my opinion.

Defensive Ho-Oh is a cool idea, but I personally don't like it very much. Choice Band Ho-Oh actually looks like a nice option for this team since it pressures opposing stall harder (which is important now since you are losing Spikes) while also fixing a Darkrai weakness which gives Sableye a little more room. I will leave this up to you though.

On a side note, if you could elaborate on the Blissey description that would be cool.

Good luck!

 

[Malley]

On a side note, if you could elaborate on the Blissey description that would be cool.

Haha, yeah I was just pissing about with that. Updated now. Will respond to your rate more fully tomorrow.

Cheers.

 

[smlj]

Hey nice team you have there. I really like seeing stall teams since they are much harder to build now although personally I hated facing one. Latias is something you could consider to replace ferrothorn. It provides defog and allows you to shift SR to your arceus, which you could change to Rockceus to take ho-oh, mence and yveltal better. This allows you to retain your yveltal and also kyogre check. I would recommend having pursuit somewhere on this team, but I don't know what you can replace. I also agree with haxiom to change ho-oh to either banded or LO for a stallbreaker.

 

[Malley]

Hey Malley,

This stall build is pretty interesting. You hit a lot of the weaknesses I was going to mention in the threatlist, but yeah Ho-Oh is a massive weakness, since it free-switches on over half the team and you don't have any real solid answers for it. A bunch of pokemon (Darkrai and Mewtwo from your threatlist) will put a ton of pressure on Sableye, in addition to pressures of having to keep rocks off your side and so forth. Another Water-resist would be nice for Kyogre, but I mean its manageable for the most part.

I have a few suggestions. I might try running Water Arceus over Ground Arceus, and Lugia over Skarmory. This importantly allows you to deal with Ho-Oh much more easily, while providing a secondary Water-resist for Kyogre. I think Skarmory and Ferrothorn are a bit redundant and stack some common weaknesses which doesn't benefit this team. This means you lose Spikes though, which is unfortunate. Secondly, I suggest running a spread of 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SDef with a Bold Nature, which lets you better take on Mewtwo (can't 2HKO you assuming you play a good hazards game). These changes don't make your team perfect, but it's a bit better in my opinion.

Defensive Ho-Oh is a cool idea, but I personally don't like it very much. Choice Band Ho-Oh actually looks like a nice option for this team since it pressures opposing stall harder (which is important now since you are losing Spikes) while also fixing a Darkrai weakness which gives Sableye a little more room. I will leave this up to you though.

Good luck!

Hey,
Ho-Oh is definitely the biggest threat to this team, but I have a few queries about your suggestions. First, I don't see Lugia + Waterceus as so great a Ho-Oh check, as Brave Bird 2HKOs Waterceus and Sacred Fire can cripple Lugia. They make the match-up easier, certainly, but they also make set-up Groudon a considerable amount more threatening, as well as limiting my E-Killer, Ogre, and Mence checks. Mence is the main problem, since it's honestly more broken than Groudon, and it would put insane pressure on my team with Skarmory gone. How do you think this would compare to a simple Stone Edge on Groundceus?

And what is the 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpDef Bold spread for? Waterceus?

Offensive Ho-Oh I'm definitely more interested in, since the defence on Ho-Oh does very little and it can still keep the special bulk.

Hey nice team you have there. I really like seeing stall teams since they are much harder to build now although personally I hated facing one. Latias is something you could consider to replace ferrothorn. It provides defog and allows you to shift SR to your arceus, which you could change to Rockceus to take ho-oh, mence and yveltal better. This allows you to retain your yveltal and also kyogre check. I would recommend having pursuit somewhere on this team, but I don't know what you can replace. I also agree with haxiom to change ho-oh to either banded or LO for a stallbreaker.

Hey,
I like the idea of Latias as a stallmon. I've actually been working with it on another team. Really perceptive suggestion. Your thoughts look very sound, and I'll be sure to try them out once I can bear to touch this tier again. The main problem I see is an increased weakness to Ogre, but that should be manageable.

Thanks for the rates!

 

[haxiom]

Hey,
Ho-Oh is definitely the biggest threat to this team, but I have a few queries about your suggestions. First, I don't see Lugia + Waterceus as so great a Ho-Oh check, as Brave Bird 2HKOs Waterceus and Sacred Fire can cripple Lugia. They make the match-up easier, certainly, but they also make set-up Groudon a considerable amount more threatening, as well as limiting my E-Killer, Ogre, and Mence checks. Mence is the main problem, since it's honestly more broken than Groudon, and it would put insane pressure on my team with Skarmory gone. How do you think this would compare to a simple Stone Edge on Groundceus?

And what is the 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpDef Bold spread for? Waterceus?

Offensive Ho-Oh I'm definitely more interested in, since the defence on Ho-Oh does very little and it can still keep the special bulk.

You do have to recognize that both outspeed and spam Roost/Recover with ease vs Ho-Oh and force it out. You have a cleric, so burn's aren't too bad (anyways, your Roost should heal up to full HP so Multiscale is intact even with Burn damage. I also don't think that you limit Ekiller, Ogre, Mence, and Groudon checks at all, since Lugia checks Ekiller, Mence, and Groudon fine, and I fail to see how adding a Water-resist makes you weaker to Kyogre. On most ORAS stall builds, playing a good hazards game + Lugia is the keystone of a stall build, as you check like half the meta, and it's honestly much more effective. However, I cannot make you change anything; I'd prefer that you actually tested changes rather than thinking of how they weaken you in theory, when in practice the changes are much stronger (in my opinion). EVs were for Sableye but they're not too important. Stone Edge Groundceus would be kind of like a band-aid fix- it doesn't solve the inherent flaws, but just tries to make them not quite as pronounced.

 

[Malley]

You do have to recognize that both outspeed and spam Roost/Recover with ease vs Ho-Oh and force it out. You have a cleric, so burn's aren't too bad (anyways, your Roost should heal up to full HP so Multiscale is intact even with Burn damage. I also don't think that you limit Ekiller, Ogre, Mence, and Groudon checks at all, since Lugia checks Ekiller, Mence, and Groudon fine, and I fail to see how adding a Water-resist makes you weaker to Kyogre. On most ORAS stall builds, playing a good hazards game + Lugia is the keystone of a stall build, as you check like half the meta, and it's honestly much more effective. However, I cannot make you change anything; I'd prefer that you actually tested changes rather than thinking of how they weaken you in theory, when in practice the changes are much stronger (in my opinion). EVs were for Sableye but they're not too important. Stone Edge Groundceus would be kind of like a band-aid fix- it doesn't solve the inherent flaws, but just tries to make them not quite as pronounced.

Didn't mean to react against your suggestions - just want to talk them through so I know how to approach testing. I hadn't thought about stall in those terms; it makes the strategy much clearer. I will test your changes at some point.