np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[skup]

I'm literally terrible at putting my thoughts into posts, so if this ends up as unreadable trash, I'm sorry.

Basically, I don't see Aegislash as any different than Tyranitar and when I teambuild I use Aegislash exactly like I'd use Ttar. To me, at least, Ttar and Aegi serve the same purpose, they partner up with special attackers like Lando, Keld, Zard-Y, Volc, and Sub CM Raikou that hate the Latis. There are differences between the two of them, Aegislash provides a check to Mega Meta, MGarde, MDiancie, Clef, and MALtaria, out of mons I actually factor in while teambuilding, and Ttar provides a check to Talon, Zard-Y, and Gengar, as well as giving me sand support to run Excadrill.

My view is exacerbated by the fact that I find non-Crumbler non-SubTox sets of Aegi to be terrible, and unless I wanted a stallbreaker I don't think I'd ever actually run SubTox on a team. Maybe I'm not thinking about this deeply enough, but I find +2 Shadow Sneaks to be piss weak, which rules out the SD set, I've never seen that Life Orb 4 attacks set do anything that a speed creeped Spooky Plate variant of Crumbler can't, and the Automize set is too weak to clean up without Spikes, which are devalued by the return of Defog Latis.

For all the people talking about how versatile Aegislash is, I've only ever felt a desire to use one set, which is:

Aegislash @ Leftovers/Spooky Plate
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Pursuit/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

Spooky Plate scores a guaranteed 2hko on mixed hippo, and functions as a neat little lure for when that's relevant. The last slot tailors Aegi a little too what I want it to do, Pursuit traps Latis and weakned mons that are still valuable like a low HP Thundurus, Sacred Sword could score a nice OHKO on Bisharp which could be fun, and even though I've never once been in a situation where I wanted it, Sneak seems cute on a Spooky Plate set. I could be missing something, but this is the only value I see in Aegi.

As for Aegislash's apparently incredibly over centralizing effect on the meta, I don't see it. I listed off the 5 mons that I factor into my mind when teambuilding that Aegi smacks, and of course the Latis, which brings the list to 7. There's also mons that I don't really care about but I do understand are relevant, like Mega Zam and Serperior... but my point is I don't believe this statement that Aegi blanket checks a huge amount of the meta. The list of mons "Aegi makes unviable" that people are throwing around seem to be uninformed to me. Half of these, like Hawlucha, Serperior, and Mega Hera, aren't what I'd call good regardless of Aegislash being around or not. Then there's a group like Starmie or Jirachi, that aren't hurt because Aegislash beats them, but because of other factors regarding Aegislash (Starmie is made irrelevant by Defog Latis, which spike back up in usage with TTar declining, and Jirachi just checks similar shit to Aegi, but without as much presence, so most of the time you'd upgrade to Aegi). Then there's a whole group like Celebi, that I don't think are affected by Aegi. Yes Aegi checks these mons, but they can do their roles regardless of Aegi (Celebi can still pass boosts to whatever it wants too while checking Keldeo). Finally there's a handful of legitimately good mons like Mega Gardevoir that lose viability, but because they're legitimately good its worth adding the support they need (something to kill Aegi) to continue running them, while for crap like Serperior and Hawlucha it isn't.

The people talking about using multiple Aegi checks (I've heard people suggesting a minimum of 2 per team...) aren't thinking about this right. I've been using a team with 2 soft checks, Zard-Y and Hippo, and I've never once felt a desire to use more. Maybe this is because I design my teams not to give Aegi a lot of free switch ins, just like I do for every top tier threat, but realistically, Aegi is a support pokemon that supports powerful special attackers by switching into and removing their best checks. Its not an offensive threat, and running "Aegi checks" makes about as much sense to me as running "Scarf Tar checks".

Aegi has two major effects on the meta imo. It makes previously existing top tier special attackers, like Keldeo, Zard-Y, and Landorus, better, as they can now upgrade their Ttars to Aegis, and it devalues certain top tier physical attackers like Mega Metagross that both fail to benefit from Aegislash, and are checked by it. I really, really, don't think the Aegislash meta is hugely different than the meta we had before (which is what I'd refer to as the Ttar meta), there's some small shuffling of top tier threats, like I'd say the new best 5 mons are Keld/Lando/Zard-Y/Latios/Aegi instead of Keld/Lando/Meta/Alt/Ttar, defog Latis re-emerge which makes spike stacking balance bad again, but overall its much more similar than its made out to be.

As a closing thought... I think this suspect is extremely poorly timed. Landorus is by far the best mon in both the Aegislash and pre-Aegislash meta, and it somewhat baffles me that Aegislash is put up to comeback before Landorus is to be removed. Regardless of Aegislash, Landorus has literally 0 100% reliable switch ins that fit into any non stall team (and even there, Landorus can blow past almost anything with the right set), its best checks, the Latis, are prone to Pursuit coming from Aegislash, or if that does go back to Ubers then Ttar. It also has good speed that it can boost if it really wants too, and good enough bulk to live most neutral hits, basically meaning you're getting at least one kill with it every game. For a mon with basically 0 opportunity cost (...its another water weakness for Keldeo i guess?), there's nothing else even comparable too it in the meta.

 

[Punchshroom]

ボーイ you seemed to be confused between a banned combination and an illegal combination. Shell Smash + Sucker Punch Huntail was impossible prior to ORAS because there was no way for Huntail to have both moves at once, like Sheer Force Tauros being unable to access Body Slam. Also for the record, I cannot recall a single case where a specific move is banned from a specific Pokemon, so no, it has not been 'done before'. It's either a ban of the specific Pokemon, or a blanket ban on the move itself (Double Team, Minimize, Swagger).

skup Up to this point I've never seen Aegislash being compared to TTar, or even anything else because of how unique it is. Aegislash's strong mixed offenses and defenses mean that it has a wide variety of functions, and that consistent defensive answers to Aegislash are extremely few and far between. In any case, your post exemplifies players who only look at one Aegislash set and don't see the potential of the other sets, or fail to notice the sheer polarizing effect Aegislash has on the meta.

Aegislash's Crumbler set is the 'safest and user-friendly' set, but that doesn't make other sets bad; if anything other Aegislash sets usually capitalize on the Crumbler set's metagame presence while still functioning effectively in their own right. SubToxic variants can easily be part of an effective defensive core that aims to whittle down opponents while still packing an offensive punch stronger than everything else a stall team has to offer. SD sets can terrorize slower bulky cores (and if the defensive switch-ins aren't strong enough, Aegislash can boost again while tanking hits in its Shield Forme) and, unlike the other Aegislash sets, possesses cleanup potential against offensive teams; if SD Aegislash has no time to boost, it can still just throw out strong unboosted hits like how other Aegislashes do.

As for Aegislash's impact on the meta, I will admit it's (arguably) less so than its presence in XY, but it's still really damn noticeable. Its tanking prowess would prompt Pokemon to run coverage moves for it, and considering Aegislash can blanket check like 60-70% of the meta, that's a significant impact to many, many Pokemon. Almost every single Psychic-type is hurt by Aegislash's presence alone (and I'm sure this doesn't extend to just Psychics), and Aegislash has shown that even if its targets have coverage moves, it can still tangle with them provided it switches in on the resisted STAB moves (which, as you can tell, are extremely plentiful in Aegislash's case) by virtue of its raw bulk, meaning you still have to run checks for Aegislash regardless. Mind you, most of Aegislash's prey aren't running coverage moves to simply lure Aegislash in, they're running them because it's a necessity to not get screwed over by it, which is pretty much mandatory for them now since Aegislash is literally the most splashable OU mon ever. Basically, it's not a case of 'want to', but 'have to', which doesn't sound like it would result in a very diverse meta if that applies to a large majority of the meta. I'm not even going to go into how there are a greater number of top threats that benefit more from Aegislash's presence than those that get checked by it.

 

[skup]

Punchshroom

I'm not super interested into getting into a big argument about a post that, ultimately, is just my opinions on how I use Aegi, why I use it, and the effect I'm noticing it having on the meta. I'll add a few notes onto this and then I'm done with this thread until I finish laddering for reqs.

I don't think I'm not noticing its other sets (I mean, I went one by one and explained why I think each of them are bad in the post), or not noticing its effect on the meta (once again I wrote a bunch on how I feel it changes the meta, strong special attackers that hate Latis get better, certain physical attackers that hate Aegi get worse). I find that most of its sets are terrible, and over time, are bound to wear off once the hype runs out, and then I think I see its effect on the meta, I just don't see it as colossal and meta warping like most people do.

I don't like the SD set because, besides what I'd basically define as "hoping the opponent gives you free turns to boost" its simply worse at sweeping than other OU sweepers, and I don't like switching my recovery-less sweepers into things throughout the game. Even at +2, Shadow Sneak is weaker than you'd want, and, I don't think I need to say this, but it's not fast enough to hit everything Sneak is too weak for with its stronger stabs/coverage moves. I wouldn't say it shines against balance at all. Most balances have Hippo or Ferro which really stand in its way, as well as members of an offensive core that can threaten to outspeed and either OHKO or massively dent it. Imo it shines against Hyper Offense, where +2 Sneak is probably doing more than niche chunk to whatever it touches, but even then, Garchomp and Bisharp are HO staples, and Mega Lopunny, a healthy Lando, and Weavile are all things it hates looking at. It also has a serious case of not exactly 4MSS, but "oh god I wish I had more moves". Sneak and SD are implied I think, don't know if anyone wants to fight that. Then you basically want Iron Head, Shadow Claw, Sacred Sword, and King's Shield. Kings Shield lets you not be incredibly slow and frail while sweeping, meaning you can afford to have things that aren't one shotted by Sneak outspeed you (nearly everything at full health that isnt a Psychic or Gengar). The other 3 moves are your options to hit slower things. I think most Bisharps opt for Iron Head (I think... I could be way off), and then either a second attacking move or Shield. Running IH + Sneak is just awful coverage for a sweeper that can't pick and choose its battles like Crumbler Aegi can, but not running Shield has all the flaws I discussed above.

I actually said SubTox is the non Crumbler set I'd consider using... so it's weird to act like I said it's bad. I don't think SubTox is bad at all, mostly because you still perform the "supporting special attackers" role quite nicely, and you can still spam off delicious 252+ Shadow Balls. The reason I'm not huge on SubTox Aegi is the set is best as a meta call when certain checks like Mandibuzz that just get totally boned by it are popular. Right now the most popular checks I'm seeing are like, Heatran, Hippo, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, all of which dislike another thing Aegi can do to them far more. If SubTox isn't crippling these certain switch ins, losing the steel coverage to bone MAlt and Clefable is awful. I don't think SubTox is bad, but I think it would be a bad meta call right now.

As for it's meta influence, ugh, where do I start. Firstly... Pokemon adapting their sets to beat certain checks isn't new at all. No one gets outraged by Zard-X's that run EQ for Heatran, or Landorus running HP Ice for Gliscor and opposing Lando. These are, literally, the exact same thing, Aegi effects more mons, but it's the same shit. You have three options to have your sweeper that's checked by Aegi get through Aegi, which are the same options every other Pokemon that has defensive checks has. You can 1) Lure it in with another Pokemon 2) Overwhelm it with Pokemon also checked by it 3) Run uncommon and suboptimal coverage to beat it. This little triangle of options is a fundamental part of the game, and not some new Aegi meta thing. Pokemon don't have to run suboptimal coverage to beat Aegislash, they have 2 other options to go about beating it.

I kind of hate anytime I see some made up statistic like "Aegi blanket checks X% of the meta", because it's an asspull meaningless statement. If someone wanted to go through like, the viability rankings and determine exactly what percentage of mons Aegi beats, I'd be down for it, but until then, that little statement means nothing.

...Finally, going back to the subject of Aegi checks. Your team needs to have Pokemon that can revenge Aegislash if its an offensive or balanced team. Luckily, this isn't all that hard, as Heatran, Landorus, Specs Keld, Bisharp, etc. are all available to anyone that wants them. As you add Pokemon in that let Aegislash in for free, the importance of having an Aegislash switch-in increases. If your team has few Pokemon (0-2) that are letting Aegislash in for free, which is what I'd recommend, you should do fine with one general switch-in to Crumbler (helps to not be totally boned if it pops out SD or Tox), and you could probably run a one time switch in and be totally okay. If you keep adding Pokemon that let Aegislash come in for free, you need continually more things to come in on Aegislash. This is, again, a fundamental part of the game and not an Aegislash thing. Aegislash is different from a true offensive threat in this regard, where you need a dedicated check to not be swept by, because Aegislash isn't threatening to sweep without the use of SD or Automize, which I already discussed the flaws of. This crap is why I kind of automatically ignore any one who says they seriously need multiple Aegi checks on every team.

 

[Slimmer]

Even if KSless Aegi won't be overpowered as standard Aegi (obviously), I don't really like the idea of banning just King Shield cuz:

1- This would be a "particular ban" very similar to an hypothetical "ban Protean on Greninja" or "ban Speed Boost on Blaziken", because even if it's not a complex ban at all, this just concerns Aegislash taking out part of its mechanical function. It sounds like... banning Wonder Guard but not Shedinja.
This sort of bans would be counter-productive for the future and can open the way to a "too subjective" sight at what can be run in OU or not. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm feeling this atm.
2- KSless Aegislash won't be useful in what Aegislash is supposed to be for OU, it just loses its bulkyness that should be the purpose for walling a lot of powerful threats etc. Also KSless Aegi is easily broken by Protect users etc I don't think this should be a good idea. It will be just a "dead weight" and I don't see how much useful would it be in OU tier so no need to unban etc.
3- Is KS a broken move? No, it's a broken move on Aegislash, as Protean was a broken ability on Greninja. What does make the whole combination broken? The mon itself. So I'm still for Aegislash ban.

 

[Machi]

...Finally, going back to the subject of Aegi checks. Your team needs to have Pokemon that can revenge Aegislash if its an offensive or balanced team. Luckily, this isn't all that hard, as Heatran, Landorus, Specs Keld, Bisharp, etc.

That is exactly the issue people have been bringing up because the pool of mons you're bringing up to check Aegislash are precisely the ones that as noted end up benefiting the most from its return, mons that as noted are already power houses in themselves that only get better because Aegislash reduces the likelihood of their respective or specialized check from existing on the opposing team or is outright manhandled by Aegis or grant him momentum. AM has already brought this up.

This in turn is where viability comes into question because rather than expanding the list of viable mons it instead does the opposite of removing mons that created niches for themselves, e.g. Celebi/Jirachi, and upping the use of already dominating or prolific threats.

 

[feen]

This are my thoughts so far: Aegislash will definitely centralize the metagame, giving rise to Mandibuzz and Mega Lopunny. The 50-50s are really crucial, and I have been on both ends of them, some which cost me games. Also, it's promoting the usage of stall, being a solid counter to Mega Gardevoir. Also with a bulk of 60/150/150 packed with offensive 150/150 is ridiculous. On the other hand, it keeps the megas (Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir) in check while being able to destroy mons regarding its set. I'm still not sure but my mind is going to 'Keep Ubers' side.

 

[Holiday]

Something I haven't really seen a lot of talk about is the fact that Aegi can spinblock, which I feel is a big trait of it. I've been goofing around on the ladder with a team (didn't have time to ladder last night kek) that involved Spikes + LO Aegi + Bisharp + Lando-I that's pretty potent. Life Orb Aegi prevents spinning while Bisharp deters Defog, and all three Pokemon love the extra chip damage that Spikes give, turning 2HKOS into OHKOS. If it isn't obvious, I think that Aegislash should not be banned for his offensive capabilities, but his supporting abilities. SubToxic, LO Head Smash, Pursuit, and AoA sets can kill specific checks that allow your other Pokemon (big subjects I see are MGyara, Lando-I [who should've been suspected first lmao] and LO Breloom) to wreck havoc on the opposing teams. Even his signature move drops most Pokemon's attack by 2 if you touch it. The support capabilities that Aegislash brings to the tier is just too much for OU.

Also this whole blanket check argument is dumb. If it checks potentially broken mons, we ban the mons, not introduce something else broken to fix it.

 

[CTC]

this bullshit shouldnt come back to ou. it mighta been ok in the ninja/mence heavy meta, as a switchin to non dp ninja and mono attack mence, but two wrongs dont make a right so all 3 dickheads ended up banned. tbh i was against banning aegi in the first suspect, but iv changed my mind since its departure. tho it glues together teams and fulfills a slew of niches in the metagame with not only its typing but also its skillset, the 5050 aids filled pile of shit that it conjured up that we call xy was unpleasant to play at best. sure it helps switch into the biggest annoying powerhouses like the broken fairies, torn, fat psychics etc being spammed everywhere, but do u rlly wanna be forced to run some mandibuzz tran shit on every team, use eq as the only physical move on ur sweepers, and never run scarfers again? nah fuck that shit. aegi can stay the fuck in vgc where clicking protect actually takes skill to pull off.

tbh if it wasnt for the move kings shield then maybe its jesus like typing and moses like stats could be overlooked in favor of checking the other overcentralizing shits in the meta. alas the autistic brainchild of gamefreak is in the skillset of this rage inducing asswipe cumstain of a mon. fuck aegi

edit: no its not a teambuilding issue. rmbr gene bw? ur teambuilding was gene +5. now its aeg +5. it doesnt change building but fucks up play.
- donpinions

 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

As someone who sucks at teambuilding and prefer to focus on the strategies and predictions part of the competitive Pokemon battling, I'd really love to see Aegislash back in OU. The centralizing it will caused, might help ease noobs like me in building teams

BUT

On the other hand, I totally understand why skilled team builders are quite pissed off about this. Even some of my favourite Pokemon, the likes of Mega Sceptile and Mega Gardevoir might suffer in an Aegi-meta

Sigh. Time to ladder up and possibly, vote. Whatever the outcome, the meta will still have some balancing issues. It's Pokemon and OU after all

 

[Eraxxer]

Even if KSless Aegi won't be overpowered as standard Aegi (obviously), I don't really like the idea of banning just King Shield cuz:

1- This would be a "particular ban" very similar to an hypothetical "ban Protean on Greninja" or "ban Speed Boost on Blaziken", because even if it's not a complex ban at all, this just concerns Aegislash taking out part of its mechanical function. It sounds like... banning Wonder Guard but not Shedinja.

This sums it up perfectly. If one other Pokemon, I don't really care which, let's just say Klinklang because it's a Steel type, got King's Shield (we aren't including ol' Smeargle here because it learns friggin' everything) simply banning King's Shield ceases to work. King's Shield itself is not broken by any means. It's a powerful Protect but it's got a major drawback in letting status through, which more or less balances it out. It doesn't work on Bisharp and Earthquake users, or special attackers at all.

Banning things that aren't Pokemon (moves, abilities) in the past has been about the move itself being broken. Sure, Prankster Swagger was the main culprit but just slapping Swagger on a fast Pokemon is still the same principal in that it's basically relying on luck. Moody was the broken thing, not the users. Evasion is broken, not any specific Pokemon using it. Spore spam is the broken thing, regardless of the user. OHKO moves are stupidly luck based and unfair, it has nothing to do with the Pokemon themselves.

But King's Shield isn't inherently broken. Aegislash is the thing that's broken. Now, I don't think KS-less Aegi will be any good so maybe it's fine to have it in, but I feel like it's so pointless to drop something that's broken and just cripple it. It's like... giving a man a gun in a knife fight but giving them no ammo, just because the gun is popular and people want to see it.

 

[jbtc10]

This are my thoughts so far: Aegislash will definitely centralize the metagame, giving rise to Mandibuzz and Mega Lopunny. The 50-50s are really crucial, and I have been on both ends of them, some which cost me games. Also, it's promoting the usage of stall, being a solid counter to Mega Gardevoir. Also with a bulk of 60/150/150 packed with offensive 150/150 is ridiculous. On the other hand, it keeps the megas (Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir) in check while being able to destroy mons regarding its set. I'm still not sure but my mind is going to 'Keep Ubers' side.

All those things you said are actually points in favor of keeping Aegi though.

So far, I'm kinda liking having it back. Aegi is an interesting case of a mon because every standard playstyle, be it Stall, HO or Balance, can put it to good use. Being arguably the best 'blanket check' mon in the game due its typing and stats also makes it so that you now more defensive role compression available while simultaneously having offensive pressure, which is a good thing in my book because there are just so many things to account for now that it's virtually impossible to cover even half of things without having to resort to full stall which is passive as heck and not everyone wants to play that.

There's a fairly good deal of switch-ins for teams to choose from like Heatran, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Amoongus, Mandibuzz and so on, and none of those are purely for the purpose of Aegi, they also handle a lot of other meta threats and are good mons in their own right.

I've also heard things about making mons like Starmie and the pixie's bad, but that's not really true. Aegi hates burns so even defensive Starmie can potentially cripple it on the switch with Scald if it tries to spinblock, and offensive Starmie 2HKO's with Analytic Hydro Pump. The pixies can still achieve things like set rocks as it comes in, Baton Pass out into a check, or run a coverage move for it which they would often do anyway. All in all, it's definitely quite a big thing to have Aegi back, but I don't think it's as bad as what people are saying and many of the reasons they are giving is because it makes mons like Lando-I even better, but to me, that's not really Aegi's fault directly and those other mons aren't entirely innocent themselves either.

 

[Stathakis]

I'll put more thoughts in this post after I've played more games, but could we stop arguing for aegi's unbanning by calling it a blanket check to half the metagame? this argument literally supports aegislash to stay banned, not the other way around. what happens when a pokemon checks half the metagame and has ridiculous firepower with very few drawbacks? you use it. because using anything else in its spot is sub-optimal. because it checks half the metagame and provides a very strong offensive presence and ridiculous defensive typing and stats at no cost.

you know what a "blanket check" like aegi turns the metagame into? it turns it from 6v6 into aegi+aegicounter+4 vs. aegi+aegicounter+4. the usage stats at the top of the ladder will tell this story better than CTC or I can, so I pray we get a look at those at the end of the test.

 

[Gloom]

i don't know if i'll even get as far to be able to vote but i wholeheartedly agree with what people in this thread have said so far about that it shouldn't be necessary to unban it just to balance out or be a check/counter to others that run rampant in the metagame atm, instead of just suspecting those. i wasn't around for the previous test for this but the circumstances around that one at least warrant a re-test imo, i'm not sure however if that would actually improve the metagame long-term.

 

[ChilliTacos]

I don't know if this thing should be banned or unbanned. Personally i think you can just have a will o wisper that has prankster and just threw it at an Aegislash. Dual Screens would help as Aegislash can either be a special attacker or physcial meaning its attacks will drop. Anway i don't think it's that broken. I mean Mandibuzz is like a counter. However Aegislash gets Head Smash and in blade form that would just OHKo mandibuzz (but head Smash is unlikely on Aegislash since it would worn it down.) Anyway i didn't really see Aegislash as a threat to me before it was banned. Actuallly he was really easy to handle ith him. I didn't see the reason people were so pissed about it. For a noob like me i haven;t been frustrated with this thing. anyway i wouldn't mind him coming back to ou.

 

[zbr]

I don't know if this thing should be banned or unbanned. Personally i think you can just have a will o wisper that has prankster and just threw it at an Aegislash. Dual Screens would help as Aegislash can either be a special attacker or physcial meaning its attacks will drop. Anway i don't think it's that broken. I mean Mandibuzz is like a counter. However Aegislash gets Head Smash and in blade form that would just OHKo mandibuzz (but head Smash is unlikely on Aegislash since it would worn it down.) Anyway i didn't really see Aegislash as a threat to me before it was banned. Actuallly he was really easy to handle ith him. I didn't see the reason people were so pissed about it. For a noob like me i haven;t been frustrated with this thing. anyway i wouldn't mind him coming back to ou.

great idea. let me just have a prankster wisp user on my team just so my team can potentially deal with aegislash. dual screens would work against m-kanga too and m-kanga is purely physical. even better right? there'fore m-kanga isn't broken right? i have an intimidate wisp rocky helm arcanine and rocky helm prankster wisp sab on my team to deal with m-kang (aegi), hence neither of them are broken right?

you need to look at things from a larger point of view. what is the after effect of it returning to the tier? since we dont consider viability of other mons when considering about how broken a suspect is, we need to consider what it does to the metagame. i think a lot of people have explained it pretty well. this suspect was timed p poorly and with how the tier is right now, if we have to release a mon that was harmful bc it was capable of borking half the tier by it's typing purely as well as having the firepower to shit on the other half, just to check some major threats in the tier, then i think something is wrong. either way, with aegi back in the tier, it's just more 50/50s .. to the point where i wish zarel/immortal/whoever is in charge of ps could implement a coinflip button.

 

[Mikasa]

For me banning King's Shield is a perfectly fine option, we just use the argument that it's luck-based like Sand Veil and get this over with, it is a different kind of luck but still luck nonetheless as the so glorified prediction is nothing more than an educated guess and this move forces 50-50 scenarios more than anything else in the tier.

 

[pika pal]

For me banning King's Shield is a perfectly fine option, we just use the argument that it's luck-based like Sand Veil and get this over with, it is a different kind of luck but still luck nonetheless as the so glorified prediction is nothing more than an educated guess and this move forces 50-50 scenarios more than anything else in the tier.

The difference is that the type of luck that went behind Sand Veil was completely independent of player decision.

King's Shield does create some forks in action, but the outcome of what happens with King's Shield still comes down to the player's action: you can still evaluate which action is probably safer/optimal compared to another just as you could if choosing between attacking and switching vs a frail Sub user like Gengar, for example. Prediction is not 100% reliable, but there is nonetheless a skill element that goes into its outcome, weighing risk-reward and picking a move based on those potential outcomes.

Sand Veil brings pure luck into the equation AFTER the player's action has been decided, meaning that even if I make the best move I can and my opponent the worst for a scenario, Sand Veil can still hand them a win/momentum they would not have gotten otherwise because of the evasion boost.

 

[Mikasa]

The difference is that the type of luck that went behind Sand Veil was completely independent of player decision.

King's Shield does create some forks in action, but the outcome of what happens with King's Shield still comes down to the player's action: you can still evaluate which action is probably safer/optimal compared to another just as you could if choosing between attacking and switching vs a frail Sub user like Gengar, for example. Prediction is not 100% reliable, but there is nonetheless a skill element that goes into its outcome, weighing risk-reward and picking a move based on those potential outcomes.

Sand Veil brings pure luck into the equation AFTER the player's action has been decided, meaning that even if I make the best move I can and my opponent the worst for a scenario, Sand Veil can still hand them a win/momentum they would not have gotten otherwise because of the evasion boost.

It still has a lot of luck involved and is a move that would be broken on any decent pokémon, Sand Veil was only banned because Garchomp was broken af with it, later when people were discussing it they brought Gliscor into the equation but before the opportunity to ban SV and bring back Chomp nobody was complaining, in the end getting Chomp back and removing some element of luck was very good for the tier, banning King's Shield and getting a Stell-Ghost type who at least on turn 1 has 150 on both defenses and an ideal type to check some top tier threats seems like a very good deal for me.

 

[teal6]

King's Shield is absolutely not luck. You can't even argue that it is, it's specifically not. The user of KS makes a conscious decision to either use it or not, and on the other end, the opponent decides whether or not they are going to use it. There is specifically no random chance at all involved.

If you're going to argue for the merits of banning King's Shield, that's fine, but don't pretend like there is a luck factor involved in the slightest.

(the above, of course, is all in reference to a "fresh" KS, not on subsequent usages)

 

[preserve]

I'm quite happy to see aegislash being suspected. I never agreed to its ban the first time. It's a great pokemon that fits well with a lot of teams and isn't too broken. Some of the pokemon that people say aegislash walls can be beaten by coverage moves like bulky sd scizor with knock off.

 

[pika pal]

It still has a lot of luck involved and is a move that would be broken on any decent pokémon, Sand Veil was only banned because Garchomp was broken af with it, later when people were discussing it they brought Gliscor into the equation but before the opportunity to ban SV and bring back Chomp nobody was complaining, in the end getting Chomp back and removing some element of luck was very good for the tier, banning King's Shield and getting a Stell-Ghost type who at least on turn 1 has 150 on both defenses and an ideal type to check some top tier threats seems like a very good deal for me.

Sand Veil was not banned because of Garchomp. Sand Veil was banned in Gen 5 because of the permanent weather and because the ability fell under Evasion clause. I don't know what the verdict was in Gen 4 because I don't know how much better or worse Garchomp's own sets were then. Garchomp's unbanning came from it getting Rough Skin, a legal ability with Sand Veil banned.

That said, I checked Gliscor's DP page, and it has legal sets listing Sand Veil, which points to Garchomp rather than Sand Veil being banned in Gen 4. Regardless, Gliscor never would have raised the issue as you suggested because even before HA gave Gliscor its Poison Heal niche, it still had a legal ability in Hyper Cutter.

So nothing "brought Gliscor into the equation" because it had already come up and been passed because Sand Veil wasn't its only option the way it was for Garchomp before Gen 5.

 

[Stathakis]

Sand Veil was not banned because of Garchomp. Sand Veil was banned in Gen 5 because of the permanent weather and because the ability fell under Evasion clause. I don't know what the verdict was in Gen 4 because I don't know how much better or worse Garchomp's own sets were then. Garchomp's unbanning came from it getting Rough Skin, a legal ability with Sand Veil banned.

That said, I checked Gliscor's DP page, and it has legal sets listing Sand Veil, which points to Garchomp rather than Sand Veil being banned in Gen 4. Regardless, Gliscor never would have raised the issue as you suggested because even before HA gave Gliscor its Poison Heal niche, it still had a legal ability in Hyper Cutter.

So nothing "brought Gliscor into the equation" because it had already come up and been passed because Sand Veil wasn't its only option the way it was for Garchomp before Gen 5.

in DP, sand veil garchomp was broken. if garchomp had rough skin, it would've still been broken. you could say that sand veil was the cherry on top of an already ridiculously overpowered pokemon as anyone who played at that time will attest to.

my understanding is that in gen 5, there was enough power creep in the metagame in general that garchomp was no longer broken, and given that every viable sand veil user had viable alternative abilities, especially with the introduction of the dream world abilities, sand veil now fell under the evasion clause.


that's all irrelevant to the aegislash suspect test, btw

 

[haunter]

/off topic - Sand Veil/Snow Cloak were unbanned because in Gen 6, with the new weather mechanics (i.e. no more permanent weather), they were no longer as abusable as in Gen 5 /end of off topic.

Please focus more on Aegislash and less on the philosophical implications of a potential blanket ban on King's Shield.

 

[Halcyon.]

K played a bunch on the ladder and now I think I have solidified my opinion.

I'm really disappointed in people so far. I see all this blind hate for Aegislash and I really don't understand where it's coming from. Aegislash is straight up not broken. Not under any of the "characteristics" or any other definitions of broken I've seen here. And if a mon isn't broken, we have no reason to ban it, and if there is no reason to have something banned, it should be unbanned. So let's go through the different accusations of brokenness.


Offensively:
I think most people should agree that Aegislash should not be considered broken in the offensive sense. I myself argued that Aegi was traditionally broken last time we tested it, but I simply disagree with myself now. Aegislash, in order to hit as hard as people claim it does, must run either Life Orb or Spooky Plate/Spell Tag. This does give it more offensive presence, but doing so sacrifices the main purpose of using Aegislash: it's bulk and typing. Leftovers Aegislash, while formidable, is much less threatening that some of the other metagame defining threats. Take a look at this:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 135-160 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 226-267 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Bug: 123-145 (32.2 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Bug: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Bug: 130-154 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's really not that different from all the other big attackers in the tier. While also being much more prone to revenge killing due to its slow speed. I can't tell you how often I would come in, get a hit off, they switch to their check, and I would be forced out again. And there are MANY checks to Aegislash. Are there full counters? Probably not, though Taunt Mandibuzz and bulky Mega Scizor come very close. But there aren't any coumters to plenty of mons, so I don't really buy that argument. As for checks, there's both Zard X and Y, Mega Scizor, Regular Scizor, Mega Gyarados, regular Gyarados, Chesnaught, Hippo, Gliscor, Heat Wave Tornadus, Jolly Bisharp (aka the one everyone uses lol), ScarfTar, ChopleTar, Mega Lopunny, Heatran (both offensive and defensive), Hydreigon, Conkeldurr, Mandibuzz, Landorus, Suicune, Mega Houndoom, and others. PLEASE NOTE THAT THAT LIST INCLUDES OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE CHECKS MEANING THAT NOT ALL CAN SWITCH IN ON EVERY MOVE AEGI HAS. Even still, these mons can all beat Aegi one on one. So please don't go telling me Aegi forces you to run some obscure shit to beat it. Some of the most common pokemon beat Aegislash.


Defensively:
This fits in pretty well with the last paragraph. But there are plenty of ways to deal with Aegislash defensively. It has no reliable recovery outside of Lefties, which makes its fairly easy to wear down. I guess I'll dedicate this section to the supposedly anti meta God that is Sub Toxic. Even back when Aegi was around before, I didn't like that set myself. It lures in Hippo sure, but all it does is Toxic it and then get forced out. It's utter bait for anything with Sub, and every Dark type loves the free switch it gives, namely Bisharp and Mega Gyarados. It can't even really beat Mandi, since Taunt shuts it down 100%, meaning it also straight up loses to Gliscor (though every Aegi set does too). You really don't gain much by using it and lose a ton in return. So I'm not really sure why this set has people jizzing over it.


Support:
Oh this one I love. "Landorus is broken so let's ban Aegislash!" What a joke. People come and say we don't unban broken things to check broken things, and then go right back saying that Aegi might not be broken itself but it makes stuff like Lando and Zard Y and Keldeo sweep more easily (how it does this any more so than Scarf Tar Ill never understand but alright). How about we look at it like this instead: Aegi pursuits Psychic types for Lando and Keldeo to sweep, so let's ban Landorus and Keldeo, not Aegislash, whose role could easily be replaced by Ttar or Bisharp. Why ban Aegislash, which is on a similar power level to other offensive threats, simply because other, more powerful threats can sweep ?_?


Centralization:
This is the only thing I think makes sense to keep Aegi banned for. If it has a negative pull on the meta, and you prefer the match-up fest we have right now, then that's your opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't even really think Aegi is as centralizing as it used to be. I laddered with two teams. One was a Zard Y + Reuniclus team, and the other was a Mega Scizor team that used Aegislash. The fact that I was able to use Reuniclus at all immediately disproves the "Aegi makes psychics unviable" argument. It's straight up not true. Aegi is just as much a threat to Reun as Sableye and Mega Zor are to it. You work around them. You pair it with mons that handle those things (like I did with Zard Y .-.) and you use whatever you want. No one wants Aegi because it makes Psychics unviable. They want it because it's an easy mon to use if you are weak to those things, and then players can use their FUCKING SKILL to play around Aegi or the opponent's core they will inevitably be using to get around it if they have a Zam or Reun or whatever. But in no way does Aegi being around mean you can't use Reuniclus or Hawlucha or Serperior (this actually beats Aegi if it switches in on Leaf Storm LOL).


But the main thing I want to say is that if Aegi isn't broken in the traditional sence, don't keep it banned. If it makes Lando sweep, ban fucking Lando. Yes there are many mons that need to leave the meta, but those mons should leave, not prevent us from unbanning Aegislash, which does not break the tier. It's just a good mon that is easy to use. There's nothing wrong with that. Don't let your distaste for other Pokemon cloud your judgment when it comes to Aegislash.

Unban it, it's overdue.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I personally see that Aegislash ban vs unban is like people who says like, "teambuilding is fking ridiculous. Too many threats. Let's unban Aegi to reduce this matchup based meta" vs "screw Aegislash. I want more pokes to be viable. Who cares if its too matchup based?"

The question is, does teambuilding REALLY gets easier when there is Aegislash? I don't know. Aegislash makes many pokes become less viable in this meta, but because of that, we have less threats to consider when teambuilding. Logically, less threats to consider makes teambuilding easier. Question is, does majority of people want it like that?

Its up to people who decides this "easier teambuilding, centralized metagame" vs "diverse but rock-paper-scissors based metagame."

I personally see the problem isn't really in Aegislash. Its more like in Landorus I. People arguing how Landorus I becomes more broken with Aegislash. Now, say that Landorus I is banned but Aegislash is unbanned. Will it create a meta that's balanced?