np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[bludz]

While I think you make a lot of great points Halcyon., I don't agree that running LO/Spooky Plate sacrifices the main reason to use Aegislash (bulk and typing). It's still very bulky in shield form and doesn't necessarily need leftovers to heal off damage from a hit or two before retaliating especially because it has few reliable switch-ins. You really can't invalidate the usage of offensive item sets and that's why I think your calcs really don't show the whole story either.

I agree that it's not broken defensively but it is potentially as good as Heatran which also only has leftovers for recovery and is one of the best walls in the game. Combine that with better offensive coverage and power and it's looking like the old criteria for broken may not cut it here.

Like I said before I don't have a strong stance on whether Aegislash is definitively broken or not (leaning towards not) but I agree with whoever said that our criteria for determining brokenness is kind of outdated. A pokemon could have some combination of offensive and defensive characteristics that make it broken but fails to meet either the offensive or defensive criteria.

Also I'm not sure Aegislash as centralizing as it once was but that also means it isn't helping with the matchup problems as much as would be desired. In fact based on my time on the suspect ladder I'd say that I haven't seen a really significant decrease in matchup dependency, but I've only played about 40 ladder games so far so maybe I'll be enlightened regarding that.

 

[Norne]

I personally see that Aegislash ban vs unban is like people who says like, "teambuilding is fking ridiculous. Too many threats. Let's unban Aegi to reduce this matchup based meta" vs "screw Aegislash. I want more pokes to be viable. Who cares if its too matchup based?"

The question is, does teambuilding REALLY gets easier when there is Aegislash? I don't know. Aegislash makes many pokes become less viable in this meta, but because of that, we have less threats to consider when teambuilding. Logically, less threats to consider makes teambuilding easier. Question is, does majority of people want it like that?

Its up to people who decides this "easier teambuilding, centralized metagame" vs "diverse but rock-paper-scissors based metagame."

I personally see the problem isn't really in Aegislash. Its more like in Landorus I. People arguing how Landorus I becomes more broken with Aegislash. Now, say that Landorus I is banned but Aegislash is unbanned. Will it create a meta that's balanced?

If both stay banned we get one step closer to a desirable metagame in my opinion.

But this is Aegislash suspect discussion and I honestly loathe this aegislash ladder. I guess I'm too focused in using different stuff than searching for a team building crutch and it's 8 friends.

 

[Halcyon.]

the offensive items aren't bad, they just take away from your overall bulk and make you much easier to wear down, meaning Aegi no longer has the means to check all the things it's supposed to. Obviously teams can and will be built with this in mind, it's just not as useful (atm) as lefties is imo.

 

[napty]

A KSless Aegislash doesn't make sense to me. I've always been a fan of his Tank set and it is based around KS. Without this move my favorite mon turns itself into a worthless mon. I want Aegislash to stay OU with KS...

It's not that broken, I mean I've done some battles in the OU suspect test ladder and it is not the mon that gave me the most troubles. Yet I don't play Mandibuzz. I will maybe explain later the reasons why it should stay OU, but atm just based on the battles I've done I want it to stay OU.

 

[viol and bass]

To the calcs Halcyon. provided: you're comparing a leftovers user to a specs user and a mega, among other things. Yes, Mega Metagross hits similarly hard. However, he comes with very significant opportunity cost while Aegislash does not (no more megas and no item slot). He hits on only one side of the spectrum, while Aegislash can make use of both. His STABs are much less spammable than Aegislash's (how many things in OU resist Shadow Ball alone? They're essentially all Dark-types while Sacred Sword hits most darks super-effectively). Aegislash also has a much more potent defensive typing. And it's worth noting that despite these things, Mega Metagross is borderline broken himself. And sure, Specs Keldeo hits harder than Lefties Aegislash. That's not even close to relevant. Aegislash has way better defensive typing and stats, STABs with fewer resistances, and hard-hitting priority. Keldeo can hit with Secret Sword on the physical side, but that is the extent of the physical moves Keldeo can use. Aegislash has more versatility. Yeah, I started out with an open mind on unbanning Aegi, but since playing this ladder, I've changed my stance.

 

[Halcyon.]

To the calcs Halcyon. provided: you're comparing a leftovers user to a specs user and a mega, among other things. Yes, Mega Metagross hits similarly hard. However, he comes with very significant opportunity cost while Aegislash does not (no more megas and no item slot). He hits on only one side of the spectrum, while Aegislash can make use of both. His STABs are much less spammable than Aegislash's (how many things in OU resist Shadow Ball alone? They're essentially all Dark-types while Sacred Sword hits most darks super-effectively). Aegislash also has a much more potent defensive typing. And it's worth noting that despite these things, Mega Metagross is borderline broken himself. And sure, Specs Keldeo hits harder than Lefties Aegislash. That's not even close to relevant. Aegislash has way better defensive typing and stats, STABs with fewer resistances, and hard-hitting priority. Keldeo can hit with Secret Sword on the physical side, but that is the extent of the physical moves Keldeo can use. Aegislash has more versatility. Yeah, I started out with an open mind on unbanning Aegi, but since playing this ladder, I've changed my stance.

Of course it's relevant. It's relevant because those are the best/most common items on those mons. Like I said in my "calcs," Aegislash hurts only itself by choosing Life Orb, as it cuts down on the survivability, which is its best asset by far. If Keldeo cared more about its bulk and typing than power then it would also run Lefties. But Keldeo runs specs, and most Aegi run Lefties, so that's what I compared.

 

[Albacore]

Support:
Oh this one I love. "Landorus is broken so let's ban Aegislash!" What a joke. People come and say we don't unban broken things to check broken things, and then go right back saying that Aegi might not be broken itself but it makes stuff like Lando and Zard Y and Keldeo sweep more easily (how it does this any more so than Scarf Tar Ill never understand but alright). How about we look at it like this instead: Aegi pursuits Psychic types for Lando and Keldeo to sweep, so let's ban Landorus and Keldeo, not Aegislash, whose role could easily be replaced by Ttar or Bisharp. Why ban Aegislash, which is on a similar power level to other offensive threats, simply because other, more powerful threats can sweep ?_?

I'm sorry, but you're basically arguing that nothing can be broken under the support characteristic, becuase it's not the support mon that's broken, it's what benefits from it. In which case, we should probably unban Deo-D, and ban Bisharp and other stuff which benefits from free hazards. Or, we can ask UU to unban Venomoth, and instead, ban everything which benefits from Quiverpass, becuase we all know something can't possibly be broken individually!
Yeah, that's not how it works. If a Pokemon's presence in a metagame makes it worse, it should be banned, whether or not it's the one actually sweeping teams. You can't just shift the blame on other Pokemon becuase they're reaping Aegi's benefits.

And Aegi can't "easily be reaplced by Bisharp or TTar", that's just not true for multiple reasons. Firstly, Bish and TTar are both far easier to check and less reliable as trappers than Aegi. And secondaly, you're looking at teams vs teams matchups and not the metagame as a shole. Ans secondly, Aegislash doesn't even need Pursuit to provide support to these sweepers. Hack, it doesn't even need to be on the same team! Its presence in the metagame alone is enough to unabalance other Pokemon by discouraging the use of certain Pokemon. Bisharp doesn't makes Psychic types unviable. Tyranitar doesn't makes Psychic types unviable. But Aegi certainly does.

What you're basically suggesting here is that we can unban Aegislash, in the full knowledge that it will make other threats more powerful to the point of being broken, and then waste our time suspecting these threats and bannning them, when we could instead not unban Aegi and have these threats not be broken. Which completely conflicts with the idea of "least amount of bans neccesary for a balanced metagame" which is what the OU tier is more-or-less based on.

Whether or not a Pokemon is broken heavily depends on the state of the metagame it's in. You can't just look at Pokemon in a vaccum and declare some as broken and some not. And when a Pokemon creates a metagame unbalanced to the point of making other threats broken when they would otherwise be fine, it's bad for the metagame, period.

 

[xray]

Aegi is fucking broken, it centralizes the meta like nothing else, kshield less aegi could be a good solution bc the ppl who want it back are a bit happy and me either c:
it could still be a good mon in the ou meta and is still a good counter/check to some mons (PSSSST YOU CAN SWITCH IT OUT IF U WANT SHIELD FORM)

 

[Eraxxer]

K played a bunch on the ladder and now I think I have solidified my opinion.

I'm really disappointed in people so far. I see all this blind hate for Aegislash and I really don't understand where it's coming from. Aegislash is straight up not broken. Not under any of the "characteristics" or any other definitions of broken I've seen here. And if a mon isn't broken, we have no reason to ban it, and if there is no reason to have something banned, it should be unbanned. So let's go through the different accusations of brokenness.

Well, that's your opinion. On paper, an effective 720 BST Pokemon with arguably the best defensive type in the game while still being great offensively, STAB priority if it needs, drawback-free fighting coverage, an admittedly situational, but arguably better version of protect and the ability to wall huge portions of OU is pretty good, you go into detail so let's see.[/quote]

Offensively:
I think most people should agree that Aegislash should not be considered broken in the offensive sense. I myself argued that Aegi was traditionally broken last time we tested it, but I simply disagree with myself now. Aegislash, in order to hit as hard as people claim it does, must run either Life Orb or Spooky Plate/Spell Tag. This does give it more offensive presence, but doing so sacrifices the main purpose of using Aegislash: its bulk and typing. Leftovers Aegislash, while formidable, is much less threatening that some of the other metagame defining threats. Take a look at this:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 135-160 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 226-267 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Bug: 123-145 (32.2 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Bug: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Bug: 130-154 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's really not that different from all the other big attackers in the tier. While also being much more prone to revenge killing due to its slow speed. I can't tell you how often I would come in, get a hit off, they switch to their check, and I would be forced out again. And there are MANY checks to Aegislash. Are there full counters? Probably not, though Taunt Mandibuzz and bulky Mega Scizor come very close. But there aren't any counters to plenty of mons, so I don't really buy that argument. As for checks, there's both Zard X and Y, Mega Scizor, Regular Scizor, Mega Gyarados, regular Gyarados, Chesnaught, Hippo, Gliscor, Heat Wave Tornadus, Jolly Bisharp (aka the one everyone uses lol), ScarfTar, ChopleTar, Mega Lopunny, Heatran (both offensive and defensive), Hydreigon, Conkeldurr, Mandibuzz, Landorus, Suicune, Mega Houndoom, and others. PLEASE NOTE THAT THAT LIST INCLUDES OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE CHECKS MEANING THAT NOT ALL CAN SWITCH IN ON EVERY MOVE AEGI HAS. Even still, these mons can all beat Aegi one on one. So please don't go telling me Aegi forces you to run some obscure shit to beat it. Some of the most common pokemon beat Aegislash.

OK, firstly with the calcs, of course a Choice Specs Pokemon with a 110 Base Power move is going to hit a lot harder than an unboosted 80 Base Power attack, while Aegislash is guaranteed to land its moves (34% chance to miss 1 out of 2 Hydro Pumps). Aegislash's Special Attack is actually higher than Keldeo's. I understand your point in that Aegislash can't hold a Choice item but it makes up for that in sheer versatility and it can also run positive Attack/Special Attack natures. It hits harder than Mega Metagross, which came that close to getting banned because it's too powerful, and that's without Life Orb or Spooky Plate.

OK, your list of checks is not perfect, I won't go through every calc but I will give special mention to Lopunny as Lopunny vs Aegi is such a risky setting, almost pure 50/50 with high stakes on both ends, and Chesnaught which can literally only Leech Seed and maybe Spiky Shield, is beaten senseless by SubToxic and can't do much regardless of the set

Aegi does have checks, but don't forget that even if the user wants to sac Aegi many you listed are crippled by KS as a last ditch effort. Basically none in your list are switchins, most are revenge killers and all switchins are beaten by specific moves (Hippo is straight up 2HKOed by Life Orb/Spooky Plate Shadow Ball) You did say that "THIS LIST INCLUDES OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE CHECKS MEANING THAT NOT ALL CAN SWITCH IN ON EVERY MOVE AEGI HAS," I'm not breaking that rule I'm just simply pointing out that even though you're saying that is has plenty of checks, it still doesn't have many switchins at all, and must be revenge killed quite a lot.

Defensively:
This fits in pretty well with the last paragraph. But there are plenty of ways to deal with Aegislash defensively. It has no reliable recovery outside of Lefties, which makes its fairly easy to wear down. I guess I'll dedicate this section to the supposedly anti meta God that is Sub Toxic. Even back when Aegi was around before, I didn't like that set myself. It lures in Hippo sure, but all it does is Toxic it and then get forced out. It's utter bait for anything with Sub, and every Dark type loves the free switch it gives, namely Bisharp and Mega Gyarados. It can't even really beat Mandi, since Taunt shuts it down 100%, meaning it also straight up loses to Gliscor (though every Aegi set does too). You really don't gain much by using it and lose a ton in return. So I'm not really sure why this set has people jizzing over it.

OK, firstly, Head Smash deals with Mandibuzz quite effectively.

Now, to be honest you don't talk about its defensive capabilities really, you're just saying the SubToxic set isn't that good.

But I will say that 60/150/150 Defenses plus, as I said, one of the best Defensive typings in the game (debatable, true, but it's really freaking good), a reliable way to drop a lot of physical attackers' Attack and the ability to live just about any one attack if it needs to means it's one of the best defensive Pokemon that isn't a wall you could ever get.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 322-382 (99.3 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

I mean, it has a chance to live Landorus' Super Effective STAB Earth Power. Not saying at all that Aegi should stay in on this, just displaying how bulky it is.

Support:
Oh this one I love. "Landorus is broken so let's ban Aegislash!" What a joke. People come and say we don't unban broken things to check broken things, and then go right back saying that Aegi might not be broken itself but it makes stuff like Lando and Zard Y and Keldeo sweep more easily (how it does this any more so than Scarf Tar Ill never understand but alright). How about we look at it like this instead: Aegi pursuits Psychic types for Lando and Keldeo to sweep, so let's ban Landorus and Keldeo, not Aegislash, whose role could easily be replaced by Ttar or Bisharp. Why ban Aegislash, which is on a similar power level to other offensive threats, simply because other, more powerful threats can sweep ?_?

The argument that Aegi can let those Pokemon sweep is, I'll admit, not the most potent argument, but the fact that it's something you can just slap onto a team and it stops just about every threat to a specific Pokemon dead in its tracks while having mobility of choice over something like Scarftar, potential recovery over most Bisharp and Scarftar again, the fact that it doesn't force itself into Pursuit or any move and become setup fodder, and so on, gives it a definite edge over those, imo.

Again, you definitely wouldn't ban something just for this reason, but the fact that it can do this on top of a lot of other things compounds it a bit.

Centralization:
This is the only thing I think makes sense to keep Aegi banned for. If it has a negative pull on the meta, and you prefer the match-up fest we have right now, then that's your opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't even really think Aegi is as centralizing as it used to be. I laddered with two teams. One was a Zard Y + Reuniclus team, and the other was a Mega Scizor team that used Aegislash. The fact that I was able to use Reuniclus at all immediately disproves the "Aegi makes psychics unviable" argument. It's straight up not true. Aegi is just as much a threat to Reun as Sableye and Mega Zor are to it. You work around them. You pair it with mons that handle those things (like I did with Zard Y .-.) and you use whatever you want. No one wants Aegi because it makes Psychics unviable. They want it because it's an easy mon to use if you are weak to those things, and then players can use their FUCKING SKILL to play around Aegi or the opponent's core they will inevitably be using to get around it if they have a Zam or Reun or whatever. But in no way does Aegi being around mean you can't use Reuniclus or Hawlucha or Serperior (this actually beats Aegi if it switches in on Leaf Storm LOL).

Aegi is like a black hole in OU and everything needs to be able to deal with it. You will almost never see Superpower Azumarill anymore, all have Knock Off, Earthquake is almost guaranteed on MegaGross, so on and so on. You can still use Pokemon that are walled by Aegi in OU, true, but god are they hard to use. I can't find a good reference for this as the only XY viability ranking thread that has Aegi in it was the original one (Char Y was S rank, wasn't the most accurate rankings) but Hawlucha wasn't even ranked in that which sort of shows Aegi's pull on the meta.

I agree that nothing will be unwallable and that you should just pack a check to whatever it is you need, but when all our old sets are being walled and we need new coverage (example, Altaria basically needs EQ now), it's a bit too far. M-Altaria, Azumarill, Celebi, Conkeldurr, M-Gardevoir, Jirachi, Kyubes, Lati@s, M-Metagross, Raikou, M-Scizor, Slowbro, M-Venusaur, M-Alakazam, M-Heracross, M-Pinsir, Terrakion, Tornadus-T are all the things just from OU and BL that have one of their moveslots virtually predetermined just because of the existence of one Pokemon is too far imo. Of course, a lot of these can only actually touch Aegi on the switch, so they're limited even when they do warp their movesets for it. Then there's Breloom, Chansey, Starmie, M-Medicham, Hawlucha, Staraptor that could probably drop 3 ranks each in the viability at least.

The pull this thing has on the meta is disastrous. I always thought that ORAS OU wasn't as matchup based as everyone said, but that's my opinion and, even assuming I'm wrong, one Pokemon having this level of influence over an entire meta just can't be healthy, at least the way I see it.

But the main thing I want to say is that if Aegi isn't broken in the traditional sence, don't keep it banned. If it makes Lando sweep, ban fucking Lando. Yes there are many mons that need to leave the meta, but those mons should leave, not prevent us from unbanning Aegislash, which does not break the tier. It's just a good mon that is easy to use. There's nothing wrong with that. Don't let your distaste for other Pokemon cloud your judgment when it comes to Aegislash.

Unban it, it's overdue.

I'm of the opinion that Aegi itself is broken. I've looked from both angles, I've thought about it for a long time. Something with the ability to have a set for literally every single Pokemon that exists (OK, maybe an exaggeration, but I don't know. At least everything that I can think of is beaten by one set given a free attack) is broken as can be in my eyes.

 

[Celticpride]

To the calcs Halcyon. provided: you're comparing a leftovers user to a specs user and a mega, among other things. Yes, Mega Metagross hits similarly hard. However, he comes with very significant opportunity cost while Aegislash does not (no more megas and no item slot). He hits on only one side of the spectrum, while Aegislash can make use of both. His STABs are much less spammable than Aegislash's (how many things in OU resist Shadow Ball alone? They're essentially all Dark-types while Sacred Sword hits most darks super-effectively). Aegislash also has a much more potent defensive typing. And it's worth noting that despite these things, Mega Metagross is borderline broken himself. And sure, Specs Keldeo hits harder than Lefties Aegislash. That's not even close to relevant. Aegislash has way better defensive typing and stats, STABs with fewer resistances, and hard-hitting priority. Keldeo can hit with Secret Sword on the physical side, but that is the extent of the physical moves Keldeo can use. Aegislash has more versatility. Yeah, I started out with an open mind on unbanning Aegi, but since playing this ladder, I've changed my stance.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 151-178 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It hits as hard as no investment Heatran (yes you read that right) using Overheat. The power of this thing is really overstated. Sure Ghost has less resists but still... it only hits as hard as SDef Tran using Overheat.

 

[Punchshroom]

Halcyon. I agree with you that Aegislash is (probably) not outwardly broken in any of the banworthy characteristics. However, not many people can argue against the fact that Aegislash comes pretty close to ticking off all three of 'offensive', 'defensive', and 'supportive' characteristics in one fell swoop.

While offensively it isn't one of the strongest mons in the tier, it does have one of the most powerful 'safe attacks' in the tier. If Shadow Ball was all we had to worry about Aegislash then that's all fine and dandy, but you forget to take into account its 150 mixed offensive stats. Meaning it's not just Shadow Ball you have to look out for; pretty much every unresisted attack on the wrong side of the defending spectrum is going to sting, and consistent Aegislash counters are few as a result. Aegislash even has the coverage to back itself up. It is slow as hell without any reliable recovery so it can't dish out hits forever, so that is some consolation.

Shield-forme Aegislash obviously has great typing and good bulk, good enough to survive most coverage moves provided it doesn't switch in on them directly (and sometimes even if it does switch in on them). So Pokemon now have to run coverage to accommodate for this threat, that's nothing new right? Well in the case of Aegislash, there are lots of things that are forced to run coverage for it due to Aegislash's punishing ability by virtue of its potent offensive stats. For them, sacrificing coverage for other threats is often worth more than letting Aegislash have a free shot at their team every time, simply because the other counters don't hit as hard as Aegislash. I don't know if this would classify as a defensive characteristic, but King's Shield limits the amount of safe approaches to Aegislash as well.

And then there is the support characteristic...

But the main thing I want to say is that if Aegi isn't broken in the traditional sence, don't keep it banned. If it makes Lando sweep, ban fucking Lando. Yes there are many mons that need to leave the meta, but those mons should leave, not prevent us from unbanning Aegislash, which does not break the tier. It's just a good mon that is easy to use. There's nothing wrong with that.

See, the thing is that Lando-I is far from the only problematic threat that Aegislash can benefit, since Aegislash has dozens of ways to support just about any offensive Pokemon in the tier, the amount of which can be sort of disgusting. Aside from the obvious Pursuit support for Lando-I, YZard, and Keldeo which can also be provided by other mons (which albeit aren't as safe as Aegi), here are just a few examples off the top of my head:

- Mega Lopunny would vastly benefit from the expected decrease of bulky Psychics in the tier
- Most defensive answers to Mega Altaria and Azumarill can be lured or taken out by Swords Dance Aegislash variants, while they share decent defensive synergy to boot
- Mega Charizard X appreciates Aegislash softening up things like bulky Grounds / Waters for it
- Mega Metagross and Aegislash share most of the same defensive checks, making it remarkably easy to soften the checks up
- Bisharp partners well with Aegislash as a deterrent to anti-hazards
- The fact that Aegislash can handle almost everything Mega Diancie wants coverage moves for makes it that much harder to deduce it

Mind you, these are just the mons in the A+ and S ranks, I probably haven't even scratched the surface to the number of threats Aegislash could feasibly support (hell, maybe even defensively). Its unique combination of stats, movepool, and ability give Aegislash the potential to pair well with just about anything (doesn't even cost a Mega!). I mean that is already pretty apparent considering everyone attests to Aegislash fitting on every playstyle and commonly labeled 'most splashable mon in the tier'. Also notice that some of the top threats Aegislash can support are also supposed to be the ones it attempts to check, but since Aegislash makes such a fantastic offensive partner to them at the same time, I feel their presence would not really wane at all. In fact, while Aegislash no longer seems like the domineering monster that XY perceived it to be, it does act like an extremely easy out to help out most of the already top threats in the meta, as if they needed more help to function. Meanwhile, some of the lesser seen / 'not as top' mons, such as Terrakion, Mega Gardevoir, Hawlucha, Jirachi, Starmie, Mega Heracross, etc... do take a hit as they are either forced to run less than optimal sets that make them less equipped for other threats or fall out of the wayside altogether, resulting in a narrowed out meta where the strong become even stronger and the weak are pushed aside.

Edit:

I'm sorry, but you're basically arguing that nothing can be broken under the support characteristic, becuase it's not the support mon that's broken, it's what benefits from it.

Essentially this.

Basically, I am of the mindset that Aegislash's reintroduction to the tier would likely not fix the issues at hand. Hell, it might even contribute to expanding the problem (the current overbearing threats are now even harder to deal with) and / or create a new one (meta staleness). Aegislash indeed isn't broken in the traditional sense, but it is for a whole unique reason.

 

[Mencee]

Well, that's your opinion. On paper, an effective 720 BST Pokemon with arguably the best defensive type in the game while still being great offensively, STAB priority if it needs, drawback-free fighting coverage, an admittedly situational, but arguably better version of protect and the ability to wall huge portions of OU is pretty good, you go into detail so let's see.

You lost me here just because you used the most bullshit argument about Aegislash. Aegislash does not have an effective 720BST whether its on paper or in practice. I am tired of people using such a bullshit excuse, and the only argument I can agree on is that it is centralizing by making stuff run EQ (which is partly for Heatran too i.e Mega Altaria) and making some Psychic types unviable.

About KS, if we do decide on this, this will eliminate the fear of the -2 attack drop for physical attackers.

 

[jpw234]

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 151-178 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It hits as hard as no investment Heatran (yes you read that right) using Overheat. The power of this thing is really overstated. Sure Ghost has less resists but still... it only hits as hard as SDef Tran using Overheat.

Since nobody uses SpD Overheat Heatran and as such that's a completely useless comparison, here's something that actually makes sense:
252 SpA Heatran Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 127-150 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 154-183 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So it hits a little bit harder than Flamethrower offensive Heatran, and a little bit less hard than Fire Blast offensive Heatran. In case, you know, you were actually interested in learning anything from mostly meaningless calcs.

Of course, calcing is pretty much irrelevant, because you have to consider context. For example, Aegislash is attacking with Ghost type STAB rather than Fire type STAB. So if you were to calc against, say, a relevant switch-in to the two:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 175-207 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 98-116 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 41.1% chance to 3HKO

For additional example, Aegislash is commonly run mixed, so you begin to get calcs like this:
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 93-109 (14.4 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Say, Heatran can't do that. But hey, go ahead and run Overheat SpD Tran if you like.

 

[Eraxxer]

You lost me here just because you used the most bullshit argument about Aegislash. Aegislash does not have an effective 720BST whether its on paper or in practice. I am tired of people using such a bullshit excuse, and the only argument I can agree on is that it is centralizing by making stuff run EQ (which is partly for Heatran too i.e Mega Altaria) and making some Psychic types unviable.

About KS, if we do decide on this, this will eliminate the fear of the -2 attack drop for physical attackers.

A well played Aegislash almost without fail will have its defensive stats properly buffed when taking hits, and of course it becomes blade forme when it deals out hits. Noone takes hits in Blade forme unless they're letting it go down. Of course, there is the risk of status when KSing, but other than that, can you elaborate as to why it's a bullshit excuse?

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 151-178 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It hits as hard as no investment Heatran (yes you read that right) using Overheat. The power of this thing is really overstated. Sure Ghost has less resists but still... it only hits as hard as SDef Tran using Overheat.

You're comparing an 80 BP STAB move to a 130 BP STAB move (with a condition in which you'll literally never see it used - who the fuck uses SpD Overheat 'Tran?) That's not exactly a fair comparison. Of fucking course Overheat is going to hit harder.

EDIT: Not to mention, last I checked, Life Orb was a pretty common item on Aegislash, so there's that too.

 

[Celticpride]

Since nobody uses SpD Overheat Heatran and as such that's a completely useless comparison, here's something that actually makes sense:
252 SpA Heatran Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 127-150 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 154-183 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So it hits a little bit harder than Flamethrower offensive Heatran, and a little bit less hard than Fire Blast offensive Heatran. In case, you know, you were actually interested in learning anything from mostly meaningless calcs.

Of course, calcing is pretty much irrelevant, because you have to consider context. For example, Aegislash is attacking with Ghost type STAB rather than Fire type STAB. So if you were to calc against, say, a relevant switch-in to the two:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 175-207 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 98-116 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 41.1% chance to 3HKO

For additional example, Aegislash is commonly run mixed, so you begin to get calcs like this:
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 93-109 (14.4 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Say, Heatran can't do that. But hey, go ahead and run Overheat SpD Tran if you like.

It also hits as hard as Leftovers unboosted Serperior. The point is that Aegi Shadow Ball supossedly wasn't being weighed against realistic comparisons, ex Specs users and Megas, well that's a fairly weaksauce attack. I'm well aware there's more context to this than simple calcs but Shadow Ball really isn't as spammable as some make it out to be.

@above the point is that 150 special attack is only worth anything backed up by moves with more than 80 BP. That's a serve limitng factor on actual damage output.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I really do feel people are overselling aegislash's capabilities and their impact on the metagame.. like I pointed out in a previous post, the pokemon we're worried might become unviable or disappear in usage already have. We're acting like these pokemon were on every single team the second aegislash left, and the second before this test was even announced.. and we act like if aegislash isn't banned now, they're suddenly going to be everywhere, which is very false. Hell, some of the pokemon like gardevoir benefitted more from aegislash's presence as it provides a check to scizor who's on the rise.

Deo and Bisharp were different stories, Albacore . Bisharp wasn't broken, considered broken, or tier shreading like lando-I and keldeo were. Keldeo and Lando-i we say are broken even without aegislash. If aegislash isn't broken.. we shouldn't ban a pokemon that isn't broken, just because already broken suspect worthy pokemon become more broken. In the case of deoxys-D, this simply wasn't true as deoxys flawlessly did it job and turned mediocre or adverage mons into terrifying sweepers with it's unstoppable screens and hazard laying. The only thing aegislash is capable of doing to support keldeo and lando, is removing the latis, and even then LO lure latios with EQ is still a viable solution since it's been used for heatran for quite awhile now.

Psychics are not disappearing.. if anything they'll appreciate the support against bug and u-turn spam. Their aren't too many pyschics in OU and the ones that are still work around aegislash regardless. M-kazam 2HKO's offensive variations on switch in, gardevoir shuts aegislash down with taunt or cripples it with wisp, and as far as slowbro.. well.. you can also blame serperior for that being difficult to use, if anything the synergy with aegislash having grass resistance and bro taking fire hits would improve slowbro in this meta.. and reuniclus who I never really seen being used in OU much either, I'm seeing popping up to trick room support aegislash himself.

With my experience on the ladder, the only difference in this metagame is the downfall of metagross (even that's shakey with the Eq the switch in and run tatic and shadow ball doesn't OHKO uninvested or without life orb) and the increase of hippo, mandi, and of course the star of the show who's on everybody's team because we're testing him out.. aegislash. It ain't like the suspect ladder is an accurate physical view of the metagame itself once it develops, but rather to test out a mon's capabilies, which have been underwhelming in that aspect.

 

[BlueLobster]

Keldeo and Lando-i we say are broken even without aegislash. If aegislash isn't broken.. we shouldn't ban a pokemon that isn't broken, just because already broken suspect worthy pokemon become more broken. In the case of deoxys-D, this simply wasn't true as deoxys flawlessly did it job and turned mediocre or adverage mons into terrifying sweepers with it's unstoppable screens and hazard laying. The only thing aegislash is capable of doing to support keldeo and lando, is removing the latis, and even then LO lure latios with EQ is still a viable solution since it's been used for heatran for quite awhile now.

Psychics are not disappearing...

First of all, since when has everyone agreed Keld is borked? It's, IMO, no where near ban worthy ATM, although it's definitely one of the best 2 pokes who don't deserve a test. In the case of the Lando-I bull, yes people are being dumb and Lando-I should see the banhammer pretty soon, but keld has no place in ubers, and has plenty of checks here in OU. If it gets a visible special movepool, then that's when I'd say it needs a suspect.
Who's saying Aegi can't run air balloon for trapping lure Latios? Heck, it can tank an uninvested EQ (or invested HP Fire) with a simple max HP spread:

4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 120-143 (37 - 44.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for psychics, some seem to have adapted reasonably well, I still keep seeing a few Slowbros, Starmies and Victinis, but those such as Jirachi are non existent in the Aegi meta. Fairies' decline is quite welcome, but the psychics who have no need to be nerfed by their nemesis returning.

I think Aegi makes the meta worse; the top threats adapt far better to him than the threats who are currently fine, excluding some of the bulky fairies. It doesn't help bulky builds against the pokes who it is basically 6-0'd by, and I think, other than the clearly broken Lando-I, the meta we have right now will be as close to balanced as we're going to get. We don't need a broken mon to 'improve' the meta.

 

[Serpi]

Why are people thinking aegi would be useless w/o King's Shield? LO 4 attacks is one of his best if not THE best set atm...

 

[Mencee]

A well played Aegislash almost without fail will have its defensive stats properly buffed when taking hits, and of course it becomes blade forme when it deals out hits. Noone takes hits in Blade forme unless they're letting it go down. Of course, there is the risk of status when KSing, but other than that, can you elaborate as to why it's a bullshit excuse?

It does not have 720 in blade form nor does it have 720 in shield, it has 520 in either form you attack it.

 

[pika pal]

It does not have 720 in blade form nor does it have 720 in shield, it has 520 in either form you attack it.

The offense drop in Shield Forme is irrelevant because Aegislash flat out can't do anything that utilizes those stats in that form himself, and any player worth their salt is not going to actually let Aegislash get hit in Blade forme. Most people denote it more as "pseudo 720" than outright 720, because we can assume that most players are skilled enough that Aegislash will have whatever stat spread he will need at a given turn thanks to King's Shield.

 

[Blasian62]

I see all of these arguments that Aegislash pretty much makes everything unviable which is a stupid argument. It can't just switch in and take a hit from anything. Lots of things can get some damage on it during a switch in. Gardevoir can shadowball; Clefable can flamethrower; Mega Lopunny can high jump kick it; Diancie can earth power; Slowbro can scald and hope for a burn; Sylveon has shadowball; I can go on and on. Aegislash really only has lefties to recover, so it can't just keep taking hits forever. It almost seems like a joke that people just list a bunch of pokemon like this. Why don't people apply this to Talonflame? Doesn't it make Breloom, Volcarona, Pinsir, Heracross, Conkeldur, Blaziken (lol), Scizor, anything that doesn't resist priority brave bird unviable? Isn't that overcentralizing? No. So who cares? If we are talking about free switches to Aegi, then you can switch in a counter, simple as that. Then there's the 50/50 argument. One, it's 50/50 for both sides. Two, there's tons of other 50/50s. For example, is Mega Manectric going to T-bolt/volt switch on heatran or is it going to predict the Scarfed Landorus switch in and HP ice? It's just another prediction to add to all of the others.

 

[teal6]

The offense drop in Shield Forme is irrelevant because Aegislash flat out can't do anything that utilizes those stats in that form himself, and any player worth their salt is not going to actually let Aegislash get hit in Blade forme. Most people denote it more as "pseudo 720" than outright 720, because we can assume that most players are skilled enough that Aegislash will have whatever stat spread he will need at a given turn thanks to King's Shield.

It's not even really "pseudo 720" because that denotes that it is much closer than what occurs in practice. The King Shield turn is huge, it can allow setup sweepers a chance to boost freely or any other number of support moves to be used. In early XY, for example, I would take advantage of a KS turn to SD with MPinsir, EQ would OHKO after that.

Again, my point above is not to be in favor of banning or unbanning - I haven't made up my mind yet. But I think some of the arguments being used are faulty at the core. Someone previously mentioned context and that is way more important than calcs or fake BST, the context that Aegislash is used in is what should determine his status, not all the other weird stuff.

 

[Martin]

I don't like the idea of banning King's Shield. It isn't the main contributing factor to why it is even ban worthy in the first place, and it certainly doesn't negate the only reason that Aegislash should stay banned imo: overcentralisation.

Take a look back on the XY meta for a minute. Here are the patterns that I saw:

Pre-Ban:

• Very few Psychic-types are viable, and any which are are in B rank or below
  
• Anything reliant on HJK for a STAB was significantly hindered
• EQ was practically required coverage for any physical attacker that couldn't hit it super effectively with a non-contact move
• Rapid Spin is inviable on anything other than Exca (due to Ground typing)

Post-Ban:

• Psychic-types flourish
• HJK users flourish
• EQ's usage significantly drops
• Rapid Spin users become usable

As you can see, Aegislash's ban had a very big, positive effect on the metagame. I was actually against its ban at the time, but as the metagame flourished without it there to make so much of the currently A ranked Pokemon inviable, I have come to love playing more than I did at any time with Aegislash legal. It has opened up so many different options to use, and tbh I don't want to go back to a meta where anything which can't beat it is bad tbh. Basically, here is the jist of my opinion on Aegislash/King's Shield:

• Aegislash is not broken, and never was broken
• King's Shield is not something which makes it broken, and never was something which makes it broken
  
• Aegislash's psuedo-720 BST is not an issue
• Aegislash is not too versatile/unpredictable for the meta
  
• Aegislash is overcentralising
• Aegislash is unhealthy for the metagame
• The metagame is more fun without Aegislash

With those points in mind, I feel that Aegislash should stay banned, but only on the basis of it being overcentralising and making too many Pokémon inviable. In addition, the greater range of options that are worth using makes the metagame as it is now more diverse and fun - allowing more Pokémon and playstyles to flourish - giving us less reason to release it from the uber tier IMO.

Man... I never thought I'd make a post supporting the Aegislash ban...

 

[Metalhand]

One thing to note about how non-relevent most of psychic types were in the aegi-meta, is that not only aegi was the problem-you have to remenber that greninja(dark pulse) and mawile(sucker punch) was roaming around at the time, if we go even more back to the deo-sharp days, we can see the aegi wasn't the only mon hindering them, that along with the buff to dark and ghost type, and the knock off spam, made the new gen very unwelcoming for them at the time.
Aegi presence for sure give hard life for psychic types, but it may will be different from last time he was around, so we can't say for sure its gonna be same this time.