np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Martin]

One thing to note about how non-relevent most of psychic types were in the aegi-meta, is that not only aegi was the problem-you have to remenber that greninja(dark pulse) and mawile(sucker punch) was roaming around at the time, if we go even more back to the deo-sharp days, we can see the aegi wasn't the only mon hindering them, that along with the buff to dark and ghost type, and the knock off spam, made the new gen very unwelcoming for them at the time.
Aegi presence for sure give hard life for psychic types, but it may will be different from last time he was around, so we can't say for sure its gonna be same this time.

But there is a correlation between the banning of Aegislash and the time when Celebi, Starmie, Jirachi and Medicham started to rise in usage/viability. If you look back at the usage stats for the months before and after Aegi/viability rankings V1 and V2 (ignore Deoxys and M-Luke mentions in V1, as they were banned simply for meeting the offense and support characteristics, respectively, instead of being banned for overcentralisation), you see the pattern emerge. In addition to this, Aegi's banning prompted Latios and Latias to achieve a status as S/A+ rank, respectively. Bisharp, Greninja and M-Mawile could have stopped all of those rises, yet they didn't. As for DeoSharp, Deo got banned before Aegislash did, so I am a little confused as to why you brought that up. However, I am just going to assume it was to extend ur argument, and I respect that.

 

[Ovr9k Pokemon]

One major factor of what makes aegislash so dangerous is that its standard layout usually consists of
ghost move
kings shield
coverage/support
filler based on the team need

in the case of aegislash's "best sets," the non kings shield sets, the danger in those sets is due to them breaking the mold of the standard set. you will never see a bulky aegislash without kings shield, its borderline unviable, only offensive sets without it. These sets benefit from the fear that kings shield causes combined with the extra coverage slot. A metagame with kings shield less aegislash would cause a lot of the offensive sets to deminish due to their main niche being the surprise factor. Aegislash would more than likely change to more of a pivotal role who can hit hard if necessary, but that's just theorymonning. No one can be sure how aegislash would play without kings shield or what impact it would have without a ladder and halfway descent players on that ladder. No one can be sure about anything until options are explored and tested.

 

[silver97]

i like this new idea of just banning king's shield and letting aegi return in OU. For sure this will make aegislash way less overcentralizingand therefore it will only bring its positive effects to the metagame, making it more stable and less matchup based, without the drawbacks it would have with its signature move. My only concerns are if this will make aegislash "not enough centralizing", i mean if it will be too nerfed to still be a dominant force of the meta and being able to balance all the powerhouses of the meta, so failing to make the meta more stable, which is what we are trying to do with this unban. Without KS aegi would be constantly forced out which is not a good thing for a mon without recovery and it would be quite easy to wear down or revenge kill. However atm i think that aegi could still work as a bulky pivot and be a solid check to many threats, so i'm leaning towards this option for now.

 

[Firebird101]

Oh boy, here we go again..


Honestly, I think this suspect test is a waste of time. Aegislash accomplishes none of the said objectives haunter and the OU council hopes to accomplish by potentially unbanning it (other than to promote Castlevania ^^). Sure it checks and counters some of the big meta threats such as Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade and more superbly but it also promotes other big names such as both Landorus forms, both Mega Zards, Mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Thundy and more. And that is probably the most noticeable aspect of the Aegislash meta, it horribly suffocating and it takes me right back to the Deoxys meta. As controversial Aegislash's ban was, it is a mon that just can't belong to a tier that wants to be diverse, it's ability to have mixed great offenses as well as great defenses dictates almost every mon to have some kind of answer to it and thanks to it's excellent typing (fuckin steels) and movepool that is easier said than done. Oh sure, You can adapt to Aegislash and be prepared for it but it is a mon who will always find a way to stay super relevant regardless of metagame trends so you can never not prepare for it. As shit ton of folks here have already established; it centers the metagame around itself. That much can't be denied. Pro-Aegislash ban meta was a proof enough how much the meta got more diverse after it left and how much Aegislash negatively influences it, directly as well as indirectly. Heck, I was more positive towards the Giratina-O prank suspect test because at least Giratina-O actually checked the big meta threats that needed to be nerfed. Aegislash only stops half of them and promotes the already borderline broken mon to more obvious broken levels. Aegislash is just an emergency band-aid, not a permanent solution.

As for King's Shield it should only be banned if it is actually uncompetitive, otherwise we'll really risk slipping into that slippery rope people have talked about that it's ok to nerf some ubers so they can be OU like banning Protean on Greninja and shit. And I personally don't think King's Shield fits that category, it just another plus on already a amazing mon that trades status immunity to heavily punish contact attackers. I don't wanna go into the King's Shield's mindgames but when you think about it I wouldn't even call them 50/50's as Aegislash usually has the advantage just for using King's Shield and the opponent has to respond accordingly and even at worst it gains 150/150 defenses again. So if a mon facing Aegislash who can't beat it one on one it either as to sack itself, letting it turn into a tank again or risk it's teammates to eat an attack from Aegislash. Sucker Punch is a better example of 50/50 as the user (usually Bisharp) will be punished harder if it gets it wrong but Aegislash far less so, so while it takes some prediction to utilize King's Shield it is far less so the case with Sucker Punch because as I said before, Aegislash almost always has the advantage. It doesn't really promote luck, it just another tool that makes Aegislash the monster that it is.


Now I'm getting a bit off-topic here but I think it is still relevant to OU, I've also been thinking about something for awhile and I think OU need to make more radical changes to stay as a fun and healthy metagame. Something akin to kokoloko's system where everything potential suspect worthy will be quickbanned and retested later by the OU council and/or other prominent OU players on to see whether OU can handle them. I know this kind of system rubs many people the wrong way as it doesn't ban the necessarily broken mons but the ones who promote negative influence to the meta and revokes many players ability to have say in the matter but I think that would be the most efficient way to reach a desirable metagame the way things are now. Sure, not all bad players are poor debaters and not all great players are good debaters but the great players are usually the ones who have devoted themselves the most to the metagame and have better understanding of it than others (keep in mind I am definitely not one of those great players ^^'). The newly implanted 2:1 ratio requirement is already a great indicator that perhaps it is too easy to the the COIL and vote as long as you have the time for it. We suspect tested Mega Metagross and it stayed and the meta has adapted to it somewhat (Rocky helmet Chomp everywhere) but nevertheless it isn't easy to prepare for such a powerhouse, especially when you want to try other mons that you simply can't make room for on your team. Simply put, OU is a pain in the ass to prepare for and I'm almost spending more time at teambuilding than actually fighting as I keep getting beaten by mons I couldn't prepare for and quite frankly, it stinks. Don't get me wrong though, teambuilding is a great testament of skill but there should be a better balance between teambuilding and battling and too much diversity leads to a chaotic metagame and I feel that describes OU pretty well at the moment, as more mons get introduced every gen it really is inevitable more bans will follow through.



tl;dr Aegislash should stay banned, King's Shield isn't uncompetitive and OU needs to ban more shit.

 

[Blasian62]

For the people complaining that Aegislash is a blanket check and blanket counter, are Chansey and Blissey both not blanket counters and checks to the vast majority of special attackers? Is Talonflame not a blanket check to all of the fighting, grass, and bug types that don't resist a priority brave bird? Those three in particular also have recovery options in wish, soft-boiled, and roost, which all Aegislash has is lefties, and maybe a wish pass. I also don't see with that argument how Aegislash just blanket counters and blanket checks x amount of the meta. Aegislash only has 4 moves and no healing moves. I highly doubt one set checks everything. I completely disagree that it counters a large portion of the meta, especially with Aegislash's very limited recovery, and there is no proof that it does. Mons under the "blanket counter" probably include Gardevoir which can shadowball, Clefable which can flamethrower, Mega Lopunny which can high jump kick it, Diancie which can earth power, Slowbro which can scald and hope for a burn, Sylveon which has shadowball, Mega Altaria which can Eq, Chansey which can t-wave, Jirachi which can t-wave, Togekiss which can twave, anything that can hit hard with neutral damage. Someone give me a list of how and why Aegi can blanket counter all of these, please, because I don't see it.
Edit: Point about chansey and blissey is that they can switch in freely to any special attacker as a blanket counter to special attackers just as people say aegi is a blanket counter. And anyway, people can just a switch a counter into aegislash like mandibuzz, bisharp if done correctly, or something else.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

For the people complaining that Aegislash is a blanket check and blanket counter, are Chansey and Blissey both not blanket counters and checks to the vast majority of special attackers? Is Talonflame not a blanket check to all of the fighting, grass, and bug types that don't resist a priority brave bird? Those three in particular also have recovery options in wish, soft-boiled, and roost, which all Aegislash has is lefties, and maybe a wish pass. I also don't see with that argument how Aegislash just blanket counters and blanket checks x amount of the meta. Aegislash only has 4 moves and no healing moves. I highly doubt one set checks everything. I completely disagree that it counters a large portion of the meta, especially with Aegislash's very limited recovery, and there is no proof that it does. Mons under the "blanket counter" probably include Gardevoir which can shadowball, Clefable which can flamethrower, Mega Lopunny which can high jump kick it, Diancie which can earth power, Slowbro which can scald and hope for a burn, Sylveon which has shadowball, Mega Altaria which can Eq, Chansey which can t-wave, Jirachi which can t-wave, Togekiss which can twave, anything that can hit hard with neutral damage. Someone give me a list of how and why Aegi can blanket counter all of these, please, because I don't see it.

Too often do I forget the insane amount of offensive pressure chansey and blissey provide along with those defenses. Aegislash is not a one trick pony, so, can we stop treating it like one? Yes it blanket checks a large, LARGE, portion of the brOUken meta thanks to its defenses and typing, but it also threatens another portion of the meta because of its offenses and typing / coverage.

Long story short, don't ever compare Aegislash to Chansey again please.

EDIT: Yes, thats all I read up to because I'm sure from that point on your statement wasn't gonna get any better.

 

[silver97]

For the people complaining that Aegislash is a blanket check and blanket counter, are Chansey and Blissey both not blanket counters and checks to the vast majority of special attackers? Is Talonflame not a blanket check to all of the fighting, grass, and bug types that don't resist a priority brave bird? Those three in particular also have recovery options in wish, soft-boiled, and roost, which all Aegislash has is lefties, and maybe a wish pass. I also don't see with that argument how Aegislash just blanket counters and blanket checks x amount of the meta. Aegislash only has 4 moves and no healing moves. I highly doubt one set checks everything. I completely disagree that it counters a large portion of the meta, especially with Aegislash's very limited recovery, and there is no proof that it does. Mons under the "blanket counter" probably include Gardevoir which can shadowball, Clefable which can flamethrower, Mega Lopunny which can high jump kick it, Diancie which can earth power, Slowbro which can scald and hope for a burn, Sylveon which has shadowball, Mega Altaria which can Eq, Chansey which can t-wave, Jirachi which can t-wave, Togekiss which can twave, anything that can hit hard with neutral damage. Someone give me a list of how and why Aegi can blanket counter all of these, please, because I don't see it.

ok you probably didn't play the aegi meta... the difference between aegislash and those "blanket counters/checks" you mentioned is quite simple: there is almost 0 opportunity cost in using aegislash as you can literally randomly slap it on every team, it will fit it well and will always be a relevant presence on the field no matter what, while for example chansey and blissey are really passive mons that really can only be used on stallish teams and they require a good amount of support as they alone open up many weaknesses on a team, talonflame is a totally different thing as it isn't supposed to switch into attacks but is just a generic revenge killer, not nearly as useful as aegi. You're right that aegislash only has 4 moveslots, but problem is that it isn't affected by 4MSS, it just can run a shitton of completely different sets that can go from autotomize LO to subtoxic and every set shits on the counters of another one. All the moves you mentioned are for sure good ways to deal damage to aegislash, but the problem is that most of them are not common moves that take up an important moveslot, plus you will likely be able only to deal a good amount of damage to aegi, not to kill it, and you risk losing a mon in the process.

 

[BlueLobster]

Mons under the "blanket counter" probably include Gardevoir which can shadowball, Clefable which can flamethrower, Mega Lopunny which can high jump kick it, Diancie which can earth power, Slowbro which can scald and hope for a burn, Sylveon which has shadowball, Mega Altaria which can Eq, Chansey which can t-wave, Jirachi which can t-wave, Togekiss which can twave, anything that can hit hard with neutral damage. Someone give me a list of how and why Aegi can blanket counter all of these, please, because I don't see it.

First of all, it no one said it countered M.Lop, it doesn't really even check it due to SubEncore, and the best it does is a 50/50. M.Voir is only checked and no.noe argued any other, same with Specs Sylveon unless already locked. However, 3 attacks M.Voir (dual STAB + Focus Blast) and WishPass Sylveon (and Clef for that matter) are countered. WTF does T-Wave do to a slow mon with priority lol? Chansey is walled to hell and back, and flat out KOed by Sacred Sword variants. Jirachi gets KS'd so Aegi is safe from Fire Punch then KOed, while ParaFlinch variants are walled with iron heqd resist, KS and ghost STAB when Aegi isn't flinched. Slowbro loses to Shadow Ball variants, and can do nothing but pray for a burn on others, and it most likely dies in the process.

It's a blanket check to pretty much all psychics + fairies, counter is a little too far due to lack of recovery, but some pokes (Chansey, defensive Sylveon etc) are countered, and lefties + huge power difference gives Sylveon's set away so easily there is no 'but it might have shadow ball' to it after it's been in 1 turn.

 

[Master B8s]

For the people complaining that Aegislash is a blanket check and blanket counter, are Chansey and Blissey both not blanket counters and checks to the vast majority of special attackers? Is Talonflame not a blanket check to all of the fighting, grass, and bug types that don't resist a priority brave bird? Those three in particular also have recovery options in wish, soft-boiled, and roost, which all Aegislash has is lefties, and maybe a wish pass. I also don't see with that argument how Aegislash just blanket counters and blanket checks x amount of the meta. Aegislash only has 4 moves and no healing moves. I highly doubt one set checks everything. I completely disagree that it counters a large portion of the meta, especially with Aegislash's very limited recovery, and there is no proof that it does. Mons under the "blanket counter" probably include Gardevoir which can shadowball, Clefable which can flamethrower, Mega Lopunny which can high jump kick it, Diancie which can earth power, Slowbro which can scald and hope for a burn, Sylveon which has shadowball, Mega Altaria which can Eq, Chansey which can t-wave, Jirachi which can t-wave, Togekiss which can twave, anything that can hit hard with neutral damage. Someone give me a list of how and why Aegi can blanket counter all of these, please, because I don't see it.

Regards to Chansey and Blissey, they have zero offensive presents, unless they carry toxic, any physical set up sweeper can use it as bait, aegislash has a blistering 150/150 offensive stats that threaten the pokemon it intends to check/counter. As for talonflame, If you run any of the aforementioned types, any competent player will use any of the plethora of checks we have, such as Heatran, T-Tar, Zapdos, and that washing machine thing. Aegislash doesn't need reliable recovery, it just has to outlive the pokemon it intends to check/counter. Example, if i switch Aegislash into Mega-Gardevior, Aegi threatens to OHKO with Shadow Ball, or if its in range, Shadow Sneak. Gardevoir can hit it with shadow ball, but aegi wins, and your mega is dead. If Aegi threatens Gardevoir out, its already done its job. Clefable needs to CM to 2HKO with flamethrower, while Aegi can just Flash Cannon. Lopunny i will not get into because its been discussed to death the KS vs High Jump Kick, its a 50/50 and can go either way, plus it can't switch into Sacred Sword, which is the most common Coverage move. Diance 2HKOs with Earth Power, but If it doesn't predict the switch, Aegi wins with Shadow Ball+ Shadow Sneak. Slowbro Dies to Shadow Ball and Praying for scald burns is not a good strategy. Locking Sylveon into Shadow Ball just gives you momentum seeing as its weak. Altaria does not 2HKO unless it DD on the switch, which aegi can just flash cannon. T-waving the aegislash? lol what does that do? slow it down? base 50 isn't good to begin with so most people won't invest. and Jirachi and Togekiss Paraflinching is not skill. Will aegi be carrying all the coverage moves mention? no. Is scouting hard because all the moves are viable on it? yes, because Most of the time Aegi just comes out on top anyway.

Edit: Ninja'd hard :P

 

[Jaguar360]

For people wondering why banning King Shield may be a bad idea and what the slippery slope argument is I suggest reading this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ean-instead-of-greninja.3526563/#post-5975896
It is asking why not ban just Protean instead of Greninja. There is a lot of good posts in there by intelligible members with much experience.

Honestly I do not believe KS Aegis to be broken, but by banning that we open the door to many other bans:
Protean on greninja
Speed Boost Blaziken
Dark Void Darkrai
U-turn on Genesect
Geomancy Xerneas
Bug Plate Arceus
Level 70 and below Kyogre

Where do you draw the line? By strictly banning only banning pokemon and moves that are broken on all pokemon like double team, fissure, and swagger we keep bans nice and simple. If you would like to open the door to all complex bans above feel free to vote to ban KS, because Smogon is kidding itself if they don't think this is a complex ban.

Most of those are complex bans. A King's Shield ban would just be banning the move and being done with it. There's not much of a slippery slope involved.

• Banning Protean on Greninja itself would be a complex ban, though I think banning Protean as a whole in OU would be okay. If it needs to affect the lower tiers though, then that wouldn't be okay.
• Speed Boost Blaziken is a complex ban and the ability itself is not broken, especially when we have Sharpedo and Scolipede running around and not being broken.
• Same with Protean except nothing uses Dark Void aside from Smeargle. This could be interesting if King's Shield were to get banned.
• U-turn Genesect is definitely a complex ban and pretty ridiculous tbh.
• Xerneas would undoubtebly still be broken without Geomancy. Geomancy itself being banned wouldn't be too bad tbh since people are complaining about GeoPass with Smeargle.
  
• Bug Plate Arceus would still be broken and it's a complex ban.
• Ridiculous complex ban.

I can't write much more of my thoughts on Aegislash and King's Shield with homework waiting, but while I'm here, I'll just say that I'm in favor of banning King's Shield. I really don't see why this is such a big issue even after reading a lot of the explanations why. With a King's Shield ban, Aegislash becomes a lot more manageable and fair, while still being useful and viable with its Swords Dance, Crumbler and offensive pivot sets. No one else can use King's Shield other than Smeargle, who almost never uses it in the first place and can use something like Spiky Shield as an alternative if it needs to use it for some strange purpose. I don't see why it matters that King's Shield is a signature move either. Aegislash's identity isn't touched and it isn't "changing game mechanics" anymore than the Swagger ban or the Baton Pass clause did. I really don't understand why so many are against a King's Shield ban right now.

Keep in mind that I'm only at the end of page 13 right now, so I may have missed something.

 

[Chillarmy]

I like how some of you are still fooled into believing that Aegis severely limits a select group of Pokemon. Starmie nor Tentacruel really don't gaf about spamming Scald rather than spinning (in Starmie's case, it's also perfectly fine with spamming LO Hydros all day and then spinning, like it's done for three generations already). Voir, Gallade, Celebi, and Rachi can still perform their jobs very well (Celebi in particular can just BP / dry BP to something that just straight up bops Aegis); and idk if people are lumping Slowbro in with the Psychics that Aegis makes "unviable," but it's definitely not being hindered much by Aegis. This was the case in XY, but the lot of you were too stubborn to realize it. Aegis does not dominate OU as much as you people make it seem, it just makes the tier a little harder. Honestly, I'd rather take that OU than spend years testin and bannin shit (and we don't even know if X2/Y2/Z whatever is gonna poop out even more broken threats / mechanics!).

 

[Imperator Romanum]

So I'm going to give my opinion, though I don't play ORAS anymore. But what I want to say is that I believe ORAS isn't balanced and I do appreciate the council trying to balance it out... but I don't think allowing the most centralizing Pokemon ever back into ORAS. I hope ORAS will once be balanced again

 

[firehusky]

I like how some of you are still fooled into believing that Aegis severely limits a select group of Pokemon. Starmie nor Tentacruel really don't gaf about spamming Scald rather than spinning (in Starmie's case, it's also perfectly fine with spamming LO Hydros all day and then spinning, like it's done for three generations already). Voir, Gallade, Celebi, and Rachi can still perform their jobs very well (Celebi in particular can just BP / dry BP to something that just straight up bops Aegis); and idk if people are lumping Slowbro in with the Psychics that Aegis makes "unviable," but it's definitely not being hindered much by Aegis. This was the case in XY, but the lot of you were too stubborn to realize it. Aegis does not dominate OU as much as you people make it seem, it just makes the tier a little harder. Honestly, I'd rather take that OU than spend years testin and bannin shit (and we don't even know if X2/Y2/Z whatever is gonna poop out even more broken threats / mechanics!).

Gardevoir and Jirachi are literally straight up walled by Aegislash, I don't know how you can say they can still perform their jobs well. Gardevoir is literally going to be unviable with Aegislash around, and Jirachi is much less effective. Gallade is forced into 50/50s and even then non boosted Knock Off can't even OHKO Aegislash. Yeah Celebi can dry pass out to something else but it's still countered by aegi and doesn't appreciate it being out on the field. Slowbro not being hindered by aegislash? Lmao. Any set lacking fire blast or flamethrower is literally hardwalled by aegislash and the subtoxic set just sets up a sub on it and kills it. Aegislash making the tier a little harder is an understatement. It literally makes stuff like mega pinsir, mega gardevoir, mega heracross, mega medicham, mega diancie nearly unviable and really bad. It blanket checks like half the meta and has tons of sets that are all decent.

 

[Wargreymon]

I like how some of you are still fooled into believing that Aegis severely limits a select group of Pokemon. Starmie nor Tentacruel really don't gaf about spamming Scald rather than spinning (in Starmie's case, it's also perfectly fine with spamming LO Hydros all day and then spinning, like it's done for three generations already). Voir, Gallade, Celebi, and Rachi can still perform their jobs very well (Celebi in particular can just BP / dry BP to something that just straight up bops Aegis); and idk if people are lumping Slowbro in with the Psychics that Aegis makes "unviable," but it's definitely not being hindered much by Aegis. This was the case in XY, but the lot of you were too stubborn to realize it. Aegis does not dominate OU as much as you people make it seem, it just makes the tier a little harder. Honestly, I'd rather take that OU than spend years testin and bannin shit (and we don't even know if X2/Y2/Z whatever is gonna poop out even more broken threats / mechanics!).

It's not really a case of being stubborn at all. The facts speak for themselves. For example, Starmie, an A rank pokemon (who many deem to be A+), was U FREAKING U because of Aegislash. We're not just making it seem like Aegislash dominated OU to the point of making so many pokemon unviable for the sake of argument, no, it actually did that. That happened. Most of the pokemon you mentioned were almost deemed unviable in OU because of Aegislash being on every team. Mega Gardevoir in particular was a pokemon that nobody cared for or realized the potential of it because she couldn't do jack shit with Aegislash being around.

Edit: Damn it, ninja'd

 

[bsu]

Suggestion to maybe reduce the repetition in this thread!!?!!
have the op make an unbiased list of the most easily agreeable reasons for no ban and ban
for example
for ban:
-team support it provides limits diversity in cores
-almost 0 opportunity cost in using it

for no ban:
-weak to common attacks/types or
-no reliable recovery limits bulk or something idk

at least that way we can get rid of walls of text that consist of the same arguments reworded over and over again

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Gardevoir was by no means unviable when Aegislash was around, it could 2 hit KO with shadow ball on the switch. People just used it less because they couldn't mindlessly spam hyper voice for an easy win. Starmie saw low useage for many other reasons, and as someone that used it himself it could beat Aegi unless it ran shadow sneak. Sure you had to use analytic but it was by no means a bad set.

There were plenty of broken mons in the meta back then that severely impacted useage outside of Aegislash (not saying that Aegi is broken).

 

[RoyalDispenser]

It's not really a case of being stubborn at all. The facts speak for themselves. For example, Starmie, an A rank pokemon (who many deem to be A+), was U FREAKING U because of Aegislash. We're not just making it seem like Aegislash dominated OU to the point of making so many pokemon unviable for the sake of argument, no, it actually did that. That happened. Most of the pokemon you mentioned were almost deemed unviable in OU because of Aegislash being on every team. Mega Gardevoir in particular was a pokemon that nobody cared for or realized the potential of it because she couldn't do jack shit with Aegislash being around.

Edit: Damn it, ninja'd

Moot point because several pokemon, namely medicham, heracross, pinsir, and a few others actually have lower viability (and tier usage) than they did during the x/y aegislash metagame.

Even mega pinsir who's RU by usage but BL for brokeness, was S-rank OU during the first aegislash metagame. With this pattern, the "Oh no shit is now unviable!" when it already struggles in a nonaegislash metagame is really biased.

Starmie is just more viable now cause it can effectively RK the latis, and somewhat deal with the massive speed creeping oras introduced. During the aegi meta, mawile was around, bisharp was more common, and the ladder was filled with cancer pass teams.

 

[firehusky]

Shadow ball gardevoir was never a thing, even with aegislash around.

Nice "2 hit KO"

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And that's not even factoring in king's shield recovery.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Shadow ball gardevoir was never a thing, even with aegislash around.

Nice "2 hit KO"

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And that's not even factoring in king's shield recovery.

You're assuming aegislash will be 1v1 against gardevoir with max health the majority of the time and garde is unable to switch.. which is subjective as all gard needs is chip damage (which he'll get switching into hyper voice spam) in which then aegislash becomes a liability at best for checking it on the second switch in.

Even in sub-toxic's case which can wall garde, he still cannot afford chip damage from burn which basicly pressures his subs and king's shields.

 

[Wargreymon]

Moot point because several pokemon, namely medicham, heracross, pinsir, and a few others actually have lower viability (and tier usage) than they did during the x/y aegislash metagame.

Even mega pinsir who's RU by usage but BL for brokeness, was S-rank OU during the first aegislash metagame. With this pattern, the "Oh no shit is now unviable!" when it already struggles in a nonaegislash metagame is really biased.

Uh, no. Your argument is very easily explained. The Pokemon you brought up are lower in viability and/or usage because of the shift to ORAS and the powerhouse mega pokemon that came with it. The opportunity cost of these pokemon skyrocketed. Heracross is way too slow now, Medicham isn't worth using over Gallade, and the metagame at the end of XY was completely over prepared for bird spam which is when Pinsir dropped in usage.

The pokemon I mentioned and the viability/usage stats that I brought up were like that almost solely because of Aegislash, so it's not a moot point at all. I'm not just picking statistics and making up coincidences that certain pokemon saw usage when Aegi disappeared. We all played during XY and the Aegi meta, the things I mentioned were unused/unviable because of Aegislash.

 

[SketchUp]

It literally makes stuff like mega pinsir, mega gardevoir, mega heracross, mega medicham, mega diancie nearly unviable and really bad. It blanket checks like half the meta and has tons of sets that are all decent.

You are really exaggerating the viability of threats such as Mega Heracross with Aegislash around. Mega Gardevoir and other pokemon you mentioned won't become unviable or really bad, but they will become less splashable. Aegislash is a very good answer to Mega Gardevoir, Mega Metagross etc. but those pokemon will be far from bad. Not only do they have ways to get past Aegislash (Earthquake and Shadow Ball respectively) but they also benefit from a decrease in usage of pokemon such as Slowbro and Jirachi.
The problem these pokemon have with Aegislash around is that they can't spam their STABs that easily and they have to rely on suboptimal coverage to fully function, which leaves them more open to other threats who could be defeated by other moves the threats don't have any space for now (Chansey vs. Mega Gardevoir is a good example) Being easier walled by other pokemon or just being walled by Aegislash is what makes them less splashable and [probably] less viable, but they are still very good wallbreaker that every team need to prepare for. Teams without an Aegislash are the biggest losers here because your Gardevoir counter Jirachi isn't as splashable as before.

^ - I hope I worded that well because it sounds a bit unclear

RoyalDispenser You can't compare XY's viability with ORAS' viability. Mega Pinsir could still win against Aegislash by simply running Earthquake over Close Combat, which is by no means a bad option (it might be prefered sometimes even in a non-Aegislash metagame) The reason Mega Pinsir fell to RU is because it has more problems against pokemon like Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie and Raikou who are all increasing in usage.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

firehusky, you're using a recent set in a different meta. Modest was perfectly fine back then, shadow ball had merit for a threat that big and was more than reasonable as an attack option. Also stealth rocks. This is assuming Aegislash hasn't taken a hit yet, which it's extremely likely to have done considering its use as a pivot. It's also assuming HP investment which we've established Aegi doesn't always do, so I don't feel the below calc is remotely biased.

232+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

 

[Empress]

Moot point because several pokemon, namely medicham, heracross, pinsir, and a few others actually have lower viability (and tier usage) than they did during the x/y aegislash metagame.

Even mega pinsir who's RU by usage but BL for brokeness, was S-rank OU during the first aegislash metagame. With this pattern, the "Oh no shit is now unviable!" when it already struggles in a nonaegislash metagame is really biased.

Starmie is just more viable now cause it can effectively RK the latis, and somewhat deal with the massive speed creeping oras introduced. During the aegi meta, mawile was around, bisharp was more common, and the ladder was filled with cancer pass teams.

Medicham is B- because M-Gallade is superior in most cases; it was A- before the release of Galladite. Mega Hera was B rank in the Aegi metagame and it's B rank again b/c new megas. Also Starmie jumped from C+ to B+ after the Aegi ban iirc. You cannot say that the rise of Reflect Type is the only thing that made Starmie more viable.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I like how some of you are still fooled into believing that Aegis severely limits a select group of Pokemon. Starmie nor Tentacruel really don't gaf about spamming Scald rather than spinning (in Starmie's case, it's also perfectly fine with spamming LO Hydros all day and then spinning, like it's done for three generations already). Voir, Gallade, Celebi, and Rachi can still perform their jobs very well (Celebi in particular can just BP / dry BP to something that just straight up bops Aegis); and idk if people are lumping Slowbro in with the Psychics that Aegis makes "unviable," but it's definitely not being hindered much by Aegis. This was the case in XY, but the lot of you were too stubborn to realize it. Aegis does not dominate OU as much as you people make it seem, it just makes the tier a little harder. Honestly, I'd rather take that OU than spend years testin and bannin shit (and we don't even know if X2/Y2/Z whatever is gonna poop out even more broken threats / mechanics!).

Aegislash was the main reason why Jirachi was considered unviable in OU, think about that. Celebi was also hampered by Aegislash, even with its access to Earth Power; Aegi's access to Magnet Rise only made it worse. Mega Gardevoir was walled by Aegislash unless it ran Shadow Ball, which rendered it vulnerable to many other Pokémon to a much greater extent (other Steel-types, mainly). Mega Gallade could get around Aegislash with a well-predicted Knock Off, but since Aegislash can just King's Shield in Gallade's face, take jack from Knock Off and proceed to OHKO with Shadow Ball, that's yet another matchup greatly in Aegislash's favor. As for Slowbro: sure, it can inflict a Scald burn, but it's NOT going to enjoy eating a Shadow Ball at all. As stated, long-time OU veteran Starmie dropped to UU because of Aegislash rendering it barely viable. It couldn't spin and couldn't inflict enough damage on it most of the time, while being another Pokémon to fall to Shadow Ball. Don't even begin about the countless other Pokémon that were rendered much less viable, if not unviable because of this bastard sword: Mega Medicham (quite big when Mega Gallade wasn't around yet), Mega Heracross, Terrakion, Hawlucha, Staraptor... Probably a whole ton more and ORAS only brought new toys for Aegislash to blanket check, including Mega Metagross (especially with Magnet Rise)...

If you imply people are stubborn for defending their perspective, then you are blind to the massive impact Aegislash had on the OU metagame; it rendered the entire metagame stale and static, impaired the metagame's growth and development.

Gardevoir was by no means unviable when Aegislash was around, it could 2 hit KO with shadow ball on the switch. People just used it less because they couldn't mindlessly spam hyper voice for an easy win. Starmie saw low useage for many other reasons, and as someone that used it himself it could beat Aegi unless it ran shadow sneak. Sure you had to use analytic but it was by no means a bad set.

There were plenty of broken mons in the meta back then that severely impacted useage outside of Aegislash (not saying that Aegi is broken).

Yes, Gardevoir had to run Shadow Ball, but this meant sacrificing the highly important Focus Blast and either sacrificing stallbreaking utility (Taunt, Will-O-Wisp), coverage (Psyshock/Shadow Ball/HP Ground) or boosting (Calm Mind). Aegislash's presence forces Mega Gardevoir into 4MSS, which just shows how it impaired Gardevoir's viability: no Shadow Ball meant no hitting Aegislash and losing much of its otherwise amazing potential. I could say the same about every Pokémon that had to adapt to Aegislash just because of its mere presence and thus, inhibiting their viability to a decent degree. Even then, Aegislash easily exploited some of those Pokémon, so how is that a healthy Pokémon for a metagame?

Moot point because several pokemon, namely medicham, heracross, pinsir, and a few others actually have lower viability (and tier usage) than they did during the x/y aegislash metagame.

Even mega pinsir who's RU by usage but BL for brokeness, was S-rank OU during the first aegislash metagame. With this pattern, the "Oh no shit is now unviable!" when it already struggles in a nonaegislash metagame is really biased.

Starmie is just more viable now cause it can effectively RK the latis, and somewhat deal with the massive speed creeping oras introduced. During the aegi meta, mawile was around, bisharp was more common, and the ladder was filled with cancer pass teams.

All of the Pokémon listed in your first paragraph are Mega Evolutions, so your comparison with the ORAS metagame, a metagame with a much greater range of viable Mega Evolutions, is inherently flawed. Mega Pinsir just suffered from getting far more viable competition for the Mega slot and, since it can semi-reliably deal with Aegi, might even rise in viability again if the goddamn sword were to stay.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

RoyalDispenser You can't compare XY's viability with ORAS' viability. Mega Pinsir could still win against Aegislash by simply running Earthquake over Close Combat, which is by no means a bad option (it might be prefered sometimes even in a non-Aegislash metagame) The reason Mega Pinsir fell to RU is because it has more problems against pokemon like Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie and Raikou who are all increasing in usage.

In which case, if the pokemon is struggling in this metagame already, what difference would the oras aegislash metagame be? They will still have the same exact oppertunity cost hindering their usage and viability whether aegislash is around or not.. the only coincidence is that aegislash checks and handles threats like mega metagross which gives pinsir and the like less oppertunity cost. I know we cannot see usage statistics of suspect ladders.. but mega pinsirs are flying everywhere in the new aegi meta.

Medicham is B- because M-Gallade is superior in most cases; it was A- before the release of Galladite. Mega Hera was B rank in the Aegi metagame and it's B rank again b/c new megas. Also Starmie jumped from C+ to B+ after the Aegi ban iirc. You cannot say that the rise of Reflect Type is the only thing that made Starmie more viable.

And UU is down there having discussion about gallade moving down already. Even though gallade is better than medicham.. it is still about to fall down into UU usage without aegislash's presence.. the only thing here would be viability in the tier itself and how it'd struggle against aegislash.. but personally I think knock off on aegislash's switch in as well as counter priority in shadow sneak is enough to fair as much as it does now.. which isn't well.