Kyuzeth just gonna reply to your response to my quote since I'm going to bed now, but I completely accept Garde took a hit in viability compared to the current meta. I mean it's a near flawless wall breaker these days, of course Aegi made a difference and compromised its options. I was simply stating that it could still function in the Aegi meta and was not unviable, and was using an example where it could get past Aegi without support (and it could drop shadow ball if you packed the right team mates, of which I feel there were many viable options, considering the common weaknesses Aegi has).
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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They had to rely on really suboptimal coverage to hit aegislash and this meant sacrificing either utility in the form of taunt or will o wisp or SD in mega heracross's case. Being walled by the best pokemon in the metagame is really bad. Yeah they're obviously still good wallbreakers but considering how common aegislash is and will be, they're much less viable. Obviously they won't be unviable, that was probably exaggerated a bit on my part but they going to be taking a huge hit in viability and they're obviously going to be worse.
While I agree that being walled by Aegislash is awful and that Heracross and Gardevoir will be way less common, this is only the case if we fully unban Aegislash. Again, the idea of just banning the move King's Shield will make Aegislash as a whole way easier to wear down and it will be significantly crippled defensively. For other pokemon that Aegislash walls, such as Hawlucha, the removal of KS now makes it susceptible to the common sub set and it is just easier to beat in general. This new take on Aegislash would most likely solve a lot of the past issues it had back in XY.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Of course they will become worse if they are walled by one of the best pokemon in the metagame, that is exactly what I said in my previous post. You are saying they should definitely run Shadow Ball / Earthquake which is not true at all. It would be a great option sure because it lures Aegislash in and weakens them so you can just spam Hyper Voice the next time, but even without this extra move they are still big threats because checks not named Aegislash will become less common and it's not like Aegislash is on 60% of the teams. You still have an excellent matchup with Mega Gardevoir / Heracross / Pinsir in many battles.
This kinda remembers me to the situation the S ranks have in UU. Mega Aerodactyl is the best pokemon in the tier, but it is walled by the second best mon in tier, Suicune. Does being walled by the second best pokemon make you unviable? Not at all. Mega Pidgeot is probably the best mega in UU after Mega Aerodactyl. Mega Pidgeot has been nominated to S rank 2 times even though it is countered by Mega Aerodactyl, the best pokemon in the tier. Does it matter that much? Not really. Because Mega Aerodactyl and Suicune are not on every team and even if they were, they can be pressured long enough until Mega Pidgeot / Aerodactyl can break through and sweep the team. Similar as Mega Gardevoir can do against Aegislash even without Shadow Ball. The issue is that Mega Gardevoir will be pretty much deadweight until Aegislash is weakened [without shadow ball] which means it can't perform the role as Wallbreaker to help soften up fat balanced cores and can only really pull through late game. I am repeating this again: in matches without Aegislash [in an aegislash metagame], Mega Gardevoir will only become more threatening than in a non-aegislash metagame, just because good checks like Jirachi are worse (less splashable, so not used that much anymore) than before.
Unviable is a huge overstatement. You're implying that those mons lose their niche or the importance of their respective niches will become less important with Aegis in the meta. We've dealt with things like this before, and rather looking at this from a stagnant, objective angle, you should try to interpret Aegis's impact on OU with a more... realistic perspective. Think about it like this: It's very unlikely that any of the mons you'd mentioned will be engaging Aegis 1v1 on turn 1. Additionally, Aegis won't be switching in with impunity; Scald burns, smaller dents from "weak" moves, and even silly things like Thunder Wave parahax hinder Aegis enough that it's not going to switch in so often as you'd want to believe.
Also, I'd argue that Starmie and Celebi were shafted to UU because OU was unnecessarily warped around Aegis--or rather, the metagame it influenced. Following Aegis's ban, those mons had enough time and gained enough attention to recieve and be recognized for their then-established niches. With that much in mind, I highly doubt that everyone will simply stop using those mons now that something capable of punishing their misuse is running about in the meta.
P.S-Slowbro having access to Regen to offset hazard / chip damage, Scald, and even Foul Play are enough to prevent it from becoming Aegis bait.
Elaborate how Aegislash literally walls Gardevoir and Jirachi. You seem to believe at any time in the game Aegislash can freely switch in to both of them. It's not like Aegislash takes damage from shadow balls, fire punches or it doesn't mind getting t-waved or burned from a fire punch. Yeah and forget about burns from switching into a scald from Slowbro. Pinsir can't eq Aegi either because reasons.
Usage =/= viability, my friend. Gallade is still A- in OU Viability and deservedly so. He's taken a hit in usage b/c other megas are just more popular atm. Not to mention the rise of Torn-T is causing many Fighting-types to drop in usage. Moreover, who is to say that the opposing player will switch in on Gallade's Knock Off with their Aegi? Beware of the prediction argument; it goes both ways. Gallade also lacks room for both Shadow Sneak and Knock Off on the same set, not to mention that Sneak is incredibly weak.
It stops them from spamming their STAB moves and I'm assuming that gardevoir isn't running shadow ball. Obviously aegislash can't repeatedly switch into them if it's burned or weakened. Maybe 'wall' was a bit too exaggerated but it can check them.
Nitpick, but Gallade is a bad example because many in the viability thread wanted it to drop before the suspect test.
Oh lordy, competitive Pokemon is so ridiculous sometimes. This post will no doubt be deleted but, it must be said. When Aegi was up for ban an invalid point for anti-ban, as highlighted by the TLs and mods several times, was that it kept many potentially powerhouses from running rampant in the tier. Now they resuspect it to bring it back to OU for it's ability to do just that? Come on now, at least try to hide that you guys are just manipulating the tier when you don't like playing against a certain aspect of the meta.
Let's see how this turns out..
Let's see how this turns out..
Finally done with reading everything...
First of all, I'm happy to see way more good arguments from both sides than last time. It seems that the suspect test threads are getting better and better.
Now to the topic:
As many people already explained, Aegislash is NOT broken in any way. It's offensive capabilites are great, but in comparison to what we already have it is medicore at best. Defensively, while it can take a good amount of resisted hits, it has no recovery (not even Pain Split). Wearing it down is far easier than people make it out to be.
Aegislash is not even broken in the support-characteristic. Albacore tried to explain that Landorus-I could be even more broken in an Aegislash-meta. I don't think that is a valid point simply because we shouldn't ban Pokemon so just others become more/less viable. It is the same reason we don't let broken stuff unbanned to check other broken stuff. We ban both. If you fear that Landorus-I could be an even worse threat thanks to Aegislash then we ban it afterwards (it should be banned regardless but that is for another day). We banned Aegislash to let Pokemon like Starmie or Jirachi become more useful and this was a mistake and is still a mistake. I don't go around and scream "ban Talonflame it makes the life of my Pinsir harder". The same goes for Aegislash.
The next popular argument is Aegislash's versatility and "unpredictableness". Aegislash is a very special case, since it's versatility actually makes it predictable from team preview and tanking its first hit. Every speed-invested variant gives up its bulk, which is more noticable than most people here think:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 21.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As you can see, if you are using your fancy lure-sets it becomes obvious from the very beginning that Aegislash is trying to check something. It does not only fail at checking reliably without HP-investment and recovery, it revealed it's whole set just by switching into an attack! If you are now trying to argue how you need a second check for this specific set then you heavily overastimate Aegislash's bulk without investment.
0 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 122-146 (46.7 - 55.9%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO
Latios can nearly kill Aegislash all by itself if it weren't for Shadow Sneak. The opportunity cost for using an aggressive Aegislash over the standard tank set is HUGE as it gives up it's ability to check all the Pokemon it is supposed to check. There is a reason why the tank set was the most common one.
As for the lure-sets that make all Aegislash's checks like Mandibuzz completely useless: I know. That is what a lure does. I was and still am really tired of seeing how people describe how it just runs Head Smash and everything is settled. It was a REALLY medicore set and VERY situational since it basically gave Landours-Therian and many physical walls free switch-ins and if there wasn't any Mandibuzz around it failed to do it's job most of the time since it is speed-invested.
Just as a side-note: I doubt anybody would say that Rotom-W is not a good answer to Heatran just because it can lure you in with Solarbeam. You have to be wary of this set, yes, but that doesn't make Rotom-W useless against it.
Another funny point is that it makes certain Pokemon unviable and others more viable. Tell me, how is that different from any other threat? Talonflame does basically the same. What is viable and what is not, is determined by the powerful threats in the meta. Aegislash is great, therefore there will be Pokemon that will appreciate its presence and others don't. Nothing more to say here.
Now to the main point: Is Aegislash too centralizing to be in OU?
The anti-bans main point is basically what AM said. While I agree that many people exaggerate the issue with team-matchup, you don't do it better since you totally downplay the problems of the current metagame.
If you look at the viability ranking thread you can see that there are very, VERY many Pokemon alone in the A-ranks you HAVE to prepare for to not get screwed over. If I include the various amount of monsters that are currently in the B-ranks we have a HUGE pole of viable threats you have to handle. This is, as many already pointed out, not possible. You will always have a weakness to at least one thing (if you are really good at teambuilding) that will cause you much trouble. I agree, you don't auto-loose at team-preview, but if you look at it from a high level perspective the problem becomes clear: To win you have to play very carefully around this certain threat you coudn't cover, but prediction goes both ways. Assuming you don't predict every single move right, you will more likely loose than win. This is what it basically means to loose by team-preview in the current metagame and I don't know about you, but I don't desire such a metagame.
You are also fooling yourself if you say that we should just keep doing what we were doing in every generation. These methods are outdated like the characteristics for an Uber. We are not in gen4 anymore wíth less power- and speed-creep and a handful of usable but manageable Pokemon. We have more viable Pokemon than ever, weather-teams (not as crazy as in gen5 but still) and most important Mega-Evolutions. What do you want to do when we are in gen7 or 8 with maybe 100 and more threats to cover? Just ban until there are only 50? This is not working anymore! If the Metagross-suspect showed something then it is the fact that we have non-broken Pokemon in this tier and they would all be manageable if they weren't there ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Unless we can build teams with 10 slots we won't keep up in future generations, we barely can handle this one. So tell me again: Would you rather like 100 threats that you cannot cover all at once, banning non-broken Pokemon for the sake of balancing or keeping a centralizing, but NOT broken Pokemon (unlike Giratina) in OU?
Aegislash will have a POSITIVE effect on the metagame as it makes threats more manageable and teambuilding not such a frustrating progress. We are not in gen4 anymore, if you are looking for that, there is a No-Mega-ladder which reminds me of that time. We are in gen6, so we have to approach things differently. Haunter made a good step forward in giving us the option to just ban King's Shield (even if I disagree with that, it is way better than doing nothing). I don't want to play this matchup-metagame and I don't want to come to the point in which we ban Bisharp for the sake of less threats. Aegislash is not broken, shouldn't have been banned in the first place and will not ruin the meta.
First of all, I'm happy to see way more good arguments from both sides than last time. It seems that the suspect test threads are getting better and better.
Now to the topic:
As many people already explained, Aegislash is NOT broken in any way. It's offensive capabilites are great, but in comparison to what we already have it is medicore at best. Defensively, while it can take a good amount of resisted hits, it has no recovery (not even Pain Split). Wearing it down is far easier than people make it out to be.
Aegislash is not even broken in the support-characteristic. Albacore tried to explain that Landorus-I could be even more broken in an Aegislash-meta. I don't think that is a valid point simply because we shouldn't ban Pokemon so just others become more/less viable. It is the same reason we don't let broken stuff unbanned to check other broken stuff. We ban both. If you fear that Landorus-I could be an even worse threat thanks to Aegislash then we ban it afterwards (it should be banned regardless but that is for another day). We banned Aegislash to let Pokemon like Starmie or Jirachi become more useful and this was a mistake and is still a mistake. I don't go around and scream "ban Talonflame it makes the life of my Pinsir harder". The same goes for Aegislash.
The next popular argument is Aegislash's versatility and "unpredictableness". Aegislash is a very special case, since it's versatility actually makes it predictable from team preview and tanking its first hit. Every speed-invested variant gives up its bulk, which is more noticable than most people here think:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 21.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As you can see, if you are using your fancy lure-sets it becomes obvious from the very beginning that Aegislash is trying to check something. It does not only fail at checking reliably without HP-investment and recovery, it revealed it's whole set just by switching into an attack! If you are now trying to argue how you need a second check for this specific set then you heavily overastimate Aegislash's bulk without investment.
0 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 122-146 (46.7 - 55.9%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO
Latios can nearly kill Aegislash all by itself if it weren't for Shadow Sneak. The opportunity cost for using an aggressive Aegislash over the standard tank set is HUGE as it gives up it's ability to check all the Pokemon it is supposed to check. There is a reason why the tank set was the most common one.
As for the lure-sets that make all Aegislash's checks like Mandibuzz completely useless: I know. That is what a lure does. I was and still am really tired of seeing how people describe how it just runs Head Smash and everything is settled. It was a REALLY medicore set and VERY situational since it basically gave Landours-Therian and many physical walls free switch-ins and if there wasn't any Mandibuzz around it failed to do it's job most of the time since it is speed-invested.
Just as a side-note: I doubt anybody would say that Rotom-W is not a good answer to Heatran just because it can lure you in with Solarbeam. You have to be wary of this set, yes, but that doesn't make Rotom-W useless against it.
Another funny point is that it makes certain Pokemon unviable and others more viable. Tell me, how is that different from any other threat? Talonflame does basically the same. What is viable and what is not, is determined by the powerful threats in the meta. Aegislash is great, therefore there will be Pokemon that will appreciate its presence and others don't. Nothing more to say here.
Now to the main point: Is Aegislash too centralizing to be in OU?
The anti-bans main point is basically what AM said. While I agree that many people exaggerate the issue with team-matchup, you don't do it better since you totally downplay the problems of the current metagame.
If you look at the viability ranking thread you can see that there are very, VERY many Pokemon alone in the A-ranks you HAVE to prepare for to not get screwed over. If I include the various amount of monsters that are currently in the B-ranks we have a HUGE pole of viable threats you have to handle. This is, as many already pointed out, not possible. You will always have a weakness to at least one thing (if you are really good at teambuilding) that will cause you much trouble. I agree, you don't auto-loose at team-preview, but if you look at it from a high level perspective the problem becomes clear: To win you have to play very carefully around this certain threat you coudn't cover, but prediction goes both ways. Assuming you don't predict every single move right, you will more likely loose than win. This is what it basically means to loose by team-preview in the current metagame and I don't know about you, but I don't desire such a metagame.
You are also fooling yourself if you say that we should just keep doing what we were doing in every generation. These methods are outdated like the characteristics for an Uber. We are not in gen4 anymore wíth less power- and speed-creep and a handful of usable but manageable Pokemon. We have more viable Pokemon than ever, weather-teams (not as crazy as in gen5 but still) and most important Mega-Evolutions. What do you want to do when we are in gen7 or 8 with maybe 100 and more threats to cover? Just ban until there are only 50? This is not working anymore! If the Metagross-suspect showed something then it is the fact that we have non-broken Pokemon in this tier and they would all be manageable if they weren't there ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Unless we can build teams with 10 slots we won't keep up in future generations, we barely can handle this one. So tell me again: Would you rather like 100 threats that you cannot cover all at once, banning non-broken Pokemon for the sake of balancing or keeping a centralizing, but NOT broken Pokemon (unlike Giratina) in OU?
Aegislash will have a POSITIVE effect on the metagame as it makes threats more manageable and teambuilding not such a frustrating progress. We are not in gen4 anymore, if you are looking for that, there is a No-Mega-ladder which reminds me of that time. We are in gen6, so we have to approach things differently. Haunter made a good step forward in giving us the option to just ban King's Shield (even if I disagree with that, it is way better than doing nothing). I don't want to play this matchup-metagame and I don't want to come to the point in which we ban Bisharp for the sake of less threats. Aegislash is not broken, shouldn't have been banned in the first place and will not ruin the meta.
Exactly what rating are you looking at with those MPinsir's? We saw them at the MGross test too but they died down relatively quickly, or proved inferior down the line to other choices.
That said.... you do understand the mons you mentioned like MHera and the like already struggled being a wall breaker during the Aegis meta since as SketchUp already mentioned it becomes very difficult to play the role of wall breaker when the best wall x4 resists/immune to your stabs. Leaving you with coverage that can very easily be exploited, say hello to Air balloon.
That said I am confused by your logic in so much that MPinsir/Hera/Medi etc already had difficulty dealing with Aegislash, they weren't exactly the best answers by a long shot just shaky checks. That said why would they gain less opportunity costs over MGross/MAlt when they're all practically on the same boat? None of them are the best answers to Aegis, though they do have coverage in the form of EQ but that doesn't mean they are good answers as they rely primarily on lure + chip damage, that I can't see any logical inclination to using them over other megas that while also checked by Aegis are still arguably better than them in possessing immediate power/coverage/speed.
Simply put their opportunity costs do not decrease with the introduction of Aegis it actually compounds the issue.
my work schedule is super busy, but i will try and weekend grind these reqs out. my intial impression is to bring it back, but im very on the fence about it. On one hand i did not agree with the itnital ban , as I do not believe the poke is inherently broken by itself, but the effect it has on the meta game could very well be too centralizing and uappealing. its kind of a tough call. it is sort of in the class of really really really good but not broken, if ya follow .
I don't even think you read anything... I said the likes of heracross and pinsir were more common during the original aegislash metagame.. whereas since his ban they've fallen in usage and viability tremendously. No shit heracross and pinsir can be checked (air balloon still pops on any other move and EQ 2HKO's before aegis does with shadow ball) however the whole mentally that suddenly they'll be unviable when they've dropped several ranks since we even banned aegi the first time and even dropped tiers in usage implies that aegislash has 0 impact on them to begin with. You could say "it's because the metagame trends aren't in their favor" but realisticly the only metagame trend that would be changing is aegislash... which as I explained, never had an impact on these pokemon necessarly.
I never said they're aegislash checks... ever... lol I basicly said they sucked before the suspect test, after the suspect test, and now worrying about them sucking again is really pointless. If they have lowish viability now, and even tier drops, what makes anybody think aegislash is suddenly going to manipulate their viability and usage statistics when they're already unviable due to oppertunity cost over other pokemon (metagross, which aegislash checks and relieves the opportunity cost of these megas.)
As far as the rating, did you not clearly read that we have no way to check the usage statistics of the suspect ladder.. and that it's just my personally experience where metagross wasn't seen anywhere and pinsirs were flying everywhere? Because metagross takes a huge toll from aegislash.. it practicely disappears allowing pinsir and other megas to see more light of day..
and idk, maybe in the metagross suspect test, pinsirs were everywhere because metagross was banned? Unlike this current OU ladder..
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You're completely twisting the context of the original Aegis metagame, of which they were not exactly common until he was banned. It is certainly mistaken to claim that Aegis during his reign did NOT impact their usage, just putting aside the Mega wall breakers you also have psychics like Jirachi rising up from UU not simply because one threat was removed but because the defensive synergy he offered filled the void left over by Aegis on defensive teams. Yes, this affects viability.
Moreover, there were less competition for mega slots so if they were used part of it was in reaction to having a vastly decreased pool, with the removal of MMawile being the premiere wall breaker. This time around of course they'd lose viability in so much that you more megas with immediate power + speed to back them up with their old nemesis making a come back, of course it will be even less favorable to use them.
Again they aren't going to be gain any more viability with the introduction of Aegis since they don't gain any new niches in that regard.
As for seeing MPinsir they may see a light of day now but you should be familiar with how these suspect tests are early on, these aren't exactly indicative of a trend (again the MGross test was a good case in point). Moreover just because they see "light of day" is not equivalent to viability which is what people are more concerned about. Not usage but how well they can perform.
One thing you seem to be neglecting is that Aegislash IS an opportunity cost against a lot of Pokemon, in so much that they are either checked hard or grant it momentum to safely come in and fire off an attack.
It is certainly off to say he isn't going to suddenly manipulate viability and usage when that is already the case, not just with the old megas but the new ones as well case in point you've already brought up is the decrease of Mega Meta (isn't that a direct correlation to viability and usage being affected?)
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Talonflame's presence does not force several Pokemon to be completely unviable because it exists. While you could argue that it made Pokemon like Volcarona unviable in XY, Volcarona suffered from more than Talonflame's existence in the metagame.
You are missing the pro-ban point. Aegislash makes the top threats of the metagame stronger by being able to deal with their checks. That is why everybody viewed Zard X and Thundurus as viable options to suspect post-Aegis until metagame development showed that they had a reason to stay. Likewise, in a metagame where players are relying on bulkier builds, Aegislash is able to cripple many of these more defensive Pokemon, although not all with one set. It doesn't need to anyways; it only needs to target and whatever it teammates needs targeted. It is not just Landorus that Aegislash makes better; it makes literally the entire list of top-tier Pokemon that aren't screwed over by Aegislash better. Aegislash can dismantle almost any defensive check a Pokemon would want removed, and while it cannot target all of them, being able to do such IN TANDEM with being able to blanket check half of the metagame is what pushes Aegislash over the edge. Sure, Aegislash can be worn down, but if you play correctly, Aegislash will have done its job by the time it gets KOd 90% of the time anyways.
EDIT: Just to clarify, Aegislash is not dismantling defensive Pokemon through offensive coverage. SubToxic exists for a reason. Forfeiting either or can easily be built around, and saying that it cannot target everything in one slot is not a valid excuse because Greninja could not target everything either, and yet its ability to handle whatever its teammates needed it to handle, with the exception of a few defensive Pokemon, was enough for it to get banned.
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What niches will they lose? That's the question.. They are all still powerful wallbreakers with sweeping potential, and I'm not saying that they were just more common during the aegislash x/y metagame.. I'm saying now they have lost a fair share of viability from the introduction of new metagame threats like metagross.
They've already lost viability due to opportunity cost.
How is aegislash going to make something already unviable, unviable?
Aegislash is either going to:
Improve their viability shifting metagame trends to their favor,
OR, do absolutely nothing and have them see the same UU/RU usage they received in OU already before this entire suspect test even was live.
That, is the point I'm trying to voice. The argument of "everything will be unviable" isn't necessarily as dramatic as others make it out to be.. I do agree jirachi and metagross will become difficult to use, and gardevoir alongside diancie will have a new check, however I do not believe those few mons are particularly enough of interest for overcentralization in comparison the number of pokemon checked, countered, outclassed, or RK'd by things like talonflame, lando-t, and metagross.
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Ya garde was still viable in the Aegi meta x andy , it just requried more support than it does without
First off, I think what needs to be clarified here is the difference between calling something less viable versus just plain unviable, the former simply refers to lacking appeal so to speak whereas the later connotes lack of usability altogether. I think some people are confusing these two terms in thinking that you can't use MGarde/MMGross, or the mons that take a direct hit with Aegislash's reintroduction, you CAN use them just that they will be less effective.
The problem is whether these A rank mons necessarily needed to be less effective when the whole suspect test was to address a different issue altogether.
Second, why do you keep bringing up UU/RU usage you have things like Diggersby or MAero that are high on viability but are lacking in usage. That said we aren't concerned about the usage of mons but their viability, which is not in all cases directly correlated.
That said what is of concern is the fact that many things that were not particularly considered problematic/suspect but considered healthy additions, e.g. Celebi, become collateral damage in the attempt to neuter top threats. Top threats of which only very few are arguably hit as hard, MGross/MAlt, versus top threats that only rise up to become more threatening altogether, e.g. Bisharp/Keldeo/Lando-I.
Which is where the concern lies if the suspect test is supposed to alleviate the issue of already dominating threats becoming more manageable it doesn't fulfill it quite as well when you end up making already dangerous threats rise in level while inadvertently neutering would be healthy additions that kept certain things in check.
Now if we're talking about what I mean by being healthy I mean a threat that actually encourages diversity in the means it is handled. A good example of this is Talonflame who aside from promoting the use of already OU mons Tyranitar/Heatran/Rotom-W it also promoted the use more creative answers like Bulky Rocky Helmet Garchomp or brought up into the spotlight mons like Raikou or Zapdos or MAero as answers. Simply put these mons open up doors for other things to gain viability in response.
Whereas I can't exactly claim the same for Aegis because upon its return many psychic mons for instance become much more lacking in interest because they no longer offer the defensive synergy that they lay claim on, since many were trying to fill the void of Aegis' typing as noted. Not only psychic types but even certain steel types, which have also been gaining traction in the viability thread, e.g. Coballion and Empoleon. Then you also have already usable mons that are somewhat more balanced also falling out of favor, Fairy types in general aren't going to welcome him.
Worse yet instead of opening the doors to other mons to take advantage of this shift instead the ones to benefit most are the mons which are already dominating and common threats, e.g. Bisharp. That you didn't exactly expand the pool but made it smaller since not very many mons can reliably deal with Aegis by merit of its typing, which is one of its better strengths.
Of course this will make team building much easier, for one you have a wall capable of handling both spectrums of offenses which is a huge deal considering how many mixed attackers we have now. But as Fireburn posted earlier you're more or less trading off one issue for another because it is clear not everyone agrees that the outright centralization is necessarily a good thing, yes you have less to cover but you end up with less diversity as specialized checks/counters are set aside in favor of blanket checks.
Yes, diversity will take a hit in so much that you're reintroducing Aegis in a metagame that only encourages his use further because he blanket checks both old and new threats, as he has only become better in so much that reason to be utilized for his typing. As for the things that actually want to switch in on him and make use of him to gain momentum well... I don't think we gained much relevant mons in that regard (MLop immediately comes to mind assuming you predict well but MGross/MDiancie/MSable/etc aren't going to be enthusiastic doing the same - maybe MPidgeot if you want to push it).
If anything I would argue he is more broken now because he can check more things whereas the pool of answers haven't exactly expanded significantly, by which I mean reliable switch ins. There is something to be said when you can threaten a top threat like MGross, which was suspect worthy, and even potentially knock it down a peg.
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Pages and pages of "Without King's Shield, Aegislash will be bad" and I'm on the side thinking that those posts are pretty cancerous. This isn't about how bad Aegislash is (per se, considering this is a Suspect Test, but more about how it would be in OU, King's Shield or no King's Shield. If it means removing that one move to balance this Pokemon, as it does have a Priority Option, so be it. If there's an option that removes it from Ubers, it should be taken under much more serious consideration. Sure this means Aegislash becomes 1-Dimensional and only the smartest trainers can use it, but we go back to the whole concept of the Suspect Test: Is it OU worthy under one or both categories?
I want Aegislash back in OU, but I also don't want to see it take many of the comeback Pokemon like Jirachi and Celebi away.
tl;dr Less Viable or Unviable doesn't matter. If it's OU or lower with or without KS shouldn't matter. Things that potentially belong in lower tiers should be seriously looked at.
I want Aegislash back in OU, but I also don't want to see it take many of the comeback Pokemon like Jirachi and Celebi away.
tl;dr Less Viable or Unviable doesn't matter. If it's OU or lower with or without KS shouldn't matter. Things that potentially belong in lower tiers should be seriously looked at.
Banning KS is silly. That would essentially force Aegi to run 1 of 2 purely offensive sets in the Crumbler or SD, so then most of the desirable properties of Aegi from a gameplay perspective like being a good generic tank/pivot get thrown out the window and then all we've done is basically just legalized another offensive powerhouse into the tier that only HO can use, as if we don't have enough of those already.
I don't want to accuse this of being your intention, but the impression I feel like I'm getting from your words is that because these mons like Pinsir and Heracross, who were hampered by Aegislash are already starting to drop off a bit, that they shouldn't be considered for losing viability if Aegislash comes back.
The thing is, there's no glass floor for how far a Pokemon's viability can drop. Just because Pinsir was A+ in a Meta with Aegislash and is A- in a metagame with Metagross doesn't mean he'll stay A- in a Meta with Aegislash AND Metagross. Any Mega that is hampered by Aegislash suffers from his presence. Metagross might start to drop off a bit if Aegislash comes back, but that's not necessarily to Pinsir's benefit, because Pinsir has just as much trouble with Aegislash, if not more.
Aegislash wouldn't gloss over their issues, he'd compound them moreso. Heracross's best sets tends to be Pin Missile/Close Combat/Rock Blast/ Sub | SD, a set he could never get away with in an Aegis meta because he needs EQ to stand a chance against the sword.
If Aegislash comes back, Heracross, who's already in B+ with his best sets, would have to revert to an overall inferior set to compete. So his list of problems goes from "Speed and opportunity cost" to "Speed, Opportunity cost, and trouble with the tier's best Pokemon". And regardless of where USAGE puts him, the viability rankings dictate how effective the Pokemon is in practice in the current meta: whether there's one Heracross or 1000 Heracross teams, if he's B+, he should perform at the level B+ entails. If something comes in that reduces his effectiveness, his viability drops.
New meta trends have already dropped previously A- threats like Medicham into the low B's/High C's. If Aegislash comes back, Medicham could go as low as D : on top of competition as a Mega and a Wallbreaker, it's a wallbreaker that can't reliably beat the tier's most influential tank/wall.
Most Pokemon get hurt with this because most of the Pokemon seeing the most usage/viability already are also the ones that benefit most from Aegislash's support, indirectly by just making their checks less common, and directly because he's adept at beating the ones that are left. The good get better at everything else's expense. If the point of suspecting Aegislash is to reign in problematic high tier threats, the test fails that objective because most of the problematic ones (Landorus-I, Keldeo, Bisharp to some extent) gain more than they lost from Aegislash's presence. Arguably the most damaging one besides Metagross (who was already Suspected), Landorus-I, was S-Rank during Aegis, very briefly dropped when Lando-T surged after Aegis' ban, and is now back up in S anyway without Aegis. Landorus would be back in a similar boat to his Aegislash-era S-Rank, only now he has even more sets to toy around with against the teams Aegislash puts weight on: the Genie spam only gets worse.
The Giratina-O suspect may have been an April Fools' joke, but I feel like it actually got closer to the purpose than Aegislash will: everything took a hit in viability, INCLUDING those high threats like Landorus-I, Keldeo, and Metagross. Ridiculously centralizing though it would be, Giratina-O accomplished its proposed purpose of nerfing/checking threats running rampant and putting them in line with other mons in the tier. Aegislash does not accomplish this job sufficiently: Without King's Shield he's not effective enough defensively to check them consistently; with King's Shield he provides too much to them support wise. One of the characteristics of Metagross, for example, is his bulk affording him chances to come in and then being tricky to force out: Aegislash can do the latter, but what's to stop Metagross from getting back in and forcing Aegislash to take more damage if he can't use King's Shield to defend himself? Aegislash is liable to crumble under offensive pressure if he can't use King's Shield to exploit his defenses properly alongside Leftovers recovery, but with it, he checks everything too well to not carry numerous checks to Aegislash, which again constrains teambuilding.
Either we have teambuilding limited by having to account for Aegislash, or we let it run wild and rampant by not putting such a weight on it. I won't deny that there is an element of match-up to the metagame, but isn't the point of teambuilding to cover as many threats as possible to minimize/avert situations where team match-up ALONE decides the match?
The problem is that being forced to run Shadow Ball to not forfeit momentum to Aegislash was a serious constraint on Gardevoir, to the point that the support she required didn't make her an appealing option as a wallbreaker. Gardevoir needs coverage, but if she uses Shadow Ball, she either forfeits a coverage move, or loses her Utility slot, meaning she can't Stallbreak nearly as well.
Charizard-Y was at one point A+/S rank during Aegislash's meta, and while maybe there was some rank inflation, I can see the justification: Zard-Y was one of the few Megas at that time that could do its job consistently regardless of Aegislash, because Aegislash's presence didn't require it to run coverage that it wouldn't use for nothing else; that's without getting into the much lesser viability of checks like the Latis. Most of the other Megas (wallbreaker or otherwise) suffered in viability because they lost effectiveness against everything else if they did/could prepare for Aegislash
- Heracross can't use Sub/SD since he needs EQ (I remember some sets actually forgoing CC for it even)
- Gardevoir loses Stallbreaking ability because on top of Aegislash potentially forcing it out, it can't have a Utility slot anymore
- Medicham (and no Gallade) are just kind of SoL because their only option for decent damage (Fire Punch/Knock Off) just bounces off King's Shield, and Shadow Ball hurts
- Pinsir running EQ over CC left him walled by Skarmory
- EQ is less than optimal coverage choice for Mega Aerodactyl
Another thing to note: A lot of mon's generic "anti-Aegislash" option is EQ. Aegislash, however, gained Magnet Rise from the ORAS transition. If you consider he gets free turns if these mons can't Quake him, Magnet Rise is an entirely viable option for defensive purposes (hell, it'll probably replace King's Shield on a lot of sets if it gets banned). Hell, if he pulls it on the switch, he walls Landorus-I for the duration, one of the only top threats that could still break him otherwise. Aegislash only gained more things to check and more tools to check them with from ORAS.
The problem I have is that banning King's Shield is liable to be biased right now towards the idea of letting Aegislash back into OU. If a suspect had been on the move before this test came to be, I'd accept that, but the introduction of the option seems more like an attempt to nerf Aegislash enough to drop more than the move itself being an unhealthy tool in the game, which has been the root of every other move/ability ban in Smogon's history to my knowledge. Even then, there are problems to be had
- If Aegislash doesn't fulfill his role without King's Shield, the suspect for him was meaningless because he didn't accomplish the purpose he was meant to by being reintroduced.
- If Aegislash does fulfill his role without King's Shield, we implemented a ban that would not have come to mind without testing him, meaning King's Shield's ban is still intrinsically tied to Aegislash's presence
The second option especially feels sour to me, because that feels like we're jumping through hoops and stretching the ban philosophy on moves/abilities to bring Aegislash down to make a healthier metagame. I know the policy tends to be balancing the game with as few bans as possible, but isn't our policy also avoiding "broken checks broken" even moreso? If we have to go to such lengths to bring a (previously or otherwise) broken mon into the tier as a check, that indicates to me instead that we should've just suspected some other things instead.
- If they're not broken enough to suspect, why was it necessary to bring down such an obviously influential, centralizing, and tier warping Pokemon for them?
- If they are broken, they should've been suspected before we tried to introduce anything back into the game.
Now, that might raise the question of whether or not Aegislash's presence stops them from being broken
- If Aegislash is not broken, he stays, but how much does that impact their broken status? Mawile was a broken mon, but nobody noticed because those qualities only shone through when Aegislash was gone, but overwhelmingly so without him.
- If Aegislash IS broken, we brought down a broken mon to check threats broken or not. More to the point, Aegislash would probably be liable for another test, and if he's banned, we're right back where we started and would probably end up suspecting those Pokemon anyway.
The OP states
The current OU metagame is characterized by the presence of incredibly powerful attackers, such as Mega-Metagross, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Gardevoir and so on. We believe that a Pokémon like Aegislash, while being potentially overcentralizing, could provide a reliable and all-round check to many of the aforementioned threats
It outright admits Aegislash could be potentially overcentralizing, but is being introduced as an all-round check to these threats.
- If they're not broken, but making the game match-up reliant, they can't be banned. I think that's just the metagame we have to sit on. It's not like it's unplayable as some people seem to suggest
- If they are broken... again, why didn't we just suspect them? Not just Aegislash, but any Uber should be reintroduced not because it will stabilize the tier or anything, but because the tier is not healthy and stable enough already and they don't have a negative effect on it anymore. By this logic, since Mawile is not broken in an Aegislash meta (considering I recall little discussion of it on the chopping block until after Aegis was banned), what's to stop us from suspecting Mawile next? It doesn't thrive on its broken traits in an Aegislash meta, so does that mean it's not longer a banworthy mon on its own merits?
After reading this frankly astounding and well written post, among others, I think I'm changing my stance on this whole Aegislash debate (get it stance change ayyy). But seriously, I'm more or less neutral on Aegislash's presence in OU, and what really hit me was Synchronation pointing out that a meta where we just ban everything isn't a meta he wants to play, and that we cant keep applying the rules of old, more stable metagames to this mess called ORAS. Apart from the truly broken stuff like Lando I, we really shouldn't be this picky with the stuff we're given and ban stuff cuz we can and its difficult to play around. I would reccomend more tiers, but that's just me. But we can't just kick something out of OU that is stable but makes life harder for a lot of other mons; Arceus knows if we did, Talonflame and Lando T would be in the shadow realm right now.
By the same token however, and to be quite blunt, I don't give a damn if Aegislash goes back to ubers. I'd compare it to buying a New 3DS if you already have an older functional model. You'd like a brand new one, but what are you really missing if you don't buy it that you can't already do in your old model? The same goes for OU. If Aegi stays, that's all fine and dandy IMO, and if he goes there is no massive opportunity that was missed.
Now lets change this thread to Lando suspect damnit, we already partially changed it to a KS one.
So a few things, first off people need to stop calling Aegislash a blanket check. Sure it can sponge a hit or two from a lot of different things but this doesn't necessarily make it a check. I admit that is a decent band aid switch in when you have no better option but people need to stop acting as if it is some unbreakable wall as it is slow and plenty of things can 2HKO it, especially if it switches in. It is also weak to several common attacking types in a generation where we have more powerful offensive pokemon than ever before and Aegislash lacks reliable recovery so its not like it can continuously switch in and heal off damage. Another thing is people bringing up magnet rise... sure it is part of his movepool but the effect is insignificant. Is it really going give up one of its other moves for it? I mean a typical set would run KS, Shadow Ball Sacred Sword/Iron Head and then Shadow Sneak/Pursuit. It already doesn't have enough room for the moves it would like to run, i just don't see many people sacrificing the coverage or support that makes it great for a gimmick, especially when it can use air balloon and it can run substitute. Overall it is really good and somewhat centralizing but it is not and never really was broken. In fact we have more things to handle it with now (especially mega lop) than we did in X&Y. The point of suspect tests is to determine whether something is broken or un-competetive (which I do not think it is) not whether it makes your favorite battle style more relevant or your favorite Pokemon more viable despite being neither.
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So after playing some suspect, I feel like a lot of my feelings were summed up really well by AlphaGiratina. It might not be totally bannable this time around, but it doesn't improve the meta either. I didn't feel any better about playing OU. The powerful Megas are easier to check, but they're still huge threats and now I have to worry about Aegislash. The burden of proof here is on the unban Aegislash side to prove why it would make the meta better, and I just don't see that. The biggest threats in OU (Landorus, Keldeo, Zard X, Altaria, Metagross) aren't overly troubled by Aegislash (Altaria gains a solid check even if it has fire blast or eq, Metagross has to run eq and Keldeo is more afraid to spam sacred sword, but they'd still be top tier threats in an Aegislash meta imo), and while Mega Diancie is more hurt than most even it has earth power. In short, why would we want to unban this thing? It makes some of the top tier threats easier to handle while adding itself to the list of arguably bannable mons in OU (for being over centralizing, not broken). Not only does the unban side have to prove that Aegislash isn't over centralizing to the point of being banned (a very close argument) but also that it would improve the OU tier. Otherwise, if it dropped, we'd have a shitty tier with a mon that's arguably bannable but we can't ban because we decided it isn't.
um wut. I think it kinda does
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