CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[capefeather]

Now that we have CAP 20's stat spread, we're back to abilities! Our Ability Leader, trc, will again be leading this discussion to determine a slate of options for this Pokemon's secondary ability.

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Fairy Aura
Forecast
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Protean
Pure Power
Shadow Tag
Slow Start
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Arena Trap
Drizzle
Drought
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Prankster
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost

Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Grass Pelt
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy​

Be careful not to discuss any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review threads that created this list here and here.

This thread will be open for discussion once trc has posted his/her opening remarks and questions.

--------------------
CAP20 so far:

Leadership Team:

nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader​

Concept:

Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
• How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
• For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
• Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
• How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
• To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?

Type: Water / Steel
Abilities: Water Veil
Stats: 103 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 95 SpA / 65 SpD / 97 Spe

 

[trc]

Hey guys. Not sure on where we should go at the moment. We have a very strong ability selected as primary ability at the moment. We don't want the secondary ability to be better than the primary ability, as the primary ability is almost quintessential to how the CAP functions. An ability that benefits it in a more minor way is worth looking into, as is the possibility of NCA. I'll be open-minded though. As long as it doesn't outclass the primary ability. This isn't that long but I've covered all the needs to be said, really. I have no direction to offer although I do personally have my own opinion about what secondary ability should be but I won't share that straight away.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I'm looking at Secondary Ability from a perspective of balancing the two sets. Right now, I believe this CAP is much more suited to Dragon Dance than it is to Calm Mind. Water Veil helps DD CAP20 significantly more than CM CAP 20 because burns affect Physical sweepers much more than Special ones. We gave it the Speed for Dragon Dance CAP20 to handle Choice Scarfers and the Attack to defeat frail opponents such as Mega Lopunny and Latios. However, this Pokemon is not particularly bulky on the Special side and will have trouble taking weak Super Effective moves such as Zapdos' Thunderbolt and Rotom-W's Volt Switch, which in my opinion are very important for CM CAP20 to be able to take. While 95 Special Attack isn't bad, it's not enough to power through Magnezone or even dent Raikou, Pokemon that DD CAP20 will fare much better against.

As a result, I believe it's important to use Secondary Ability to buff the Calm Mind set. But how? While we won't be able to improve CAP20's bulk or affect its movepool here, we can make it better at what it's supposed to do. Calm Mind CAP20 will almost certainly be abusing Scald to deter Pokemon like Landorus-T and Excadrill from forcing it out. However, CAP20 has to both hit and burn those Pokemon on the switch to really "win" the matchup (which requires a prediction and a 30% burn chance). I believe we should improve those odds by giving CAP20 Serene Grace.

Serene Grace helps out CM CAP20 more than DD CAP20, just like Water Veil helps out DD CAP20 more than CM. An extra 20% chance for Waterfall to flinch isn't worth giving up burn immunity, while burn immunity isn't worth giving up a 60% chance for Scald to burn an opponent. We gave Calm Mind CAP20 the Physical bulk to be able to set up on super-effective moves from burned opponents. Let's give CAP20 a better chance to actually burn those opponents.

 

[aim]

I'm looking at Secondary Ability from a perspective of balancing the two sets. Right now, I believe this CAP is much more suited to Dragon Dance than it is to Calm Mind. Water Veil helps DD CAP20 significantly more than CM CAP 20 because burns affect Physical sweepers much more than Special ones. We gave it the Speed for Dragon Dance CAP20 to handle Choice Scarfers and the Attack to defeat frail opponents such as Mega Lopunny and Latios. However, this Pokemon is not particularly bulky on the Special side and will have trouble taking weak Super Effective moves such as Zapdos' Thunderbolt and Rotom-W's Volt Switch, which in my opinion are very important for CM CAP20 to be able to take. While 95 Special Attack isn't bad, it's not enough to power through Magnezone or even dent Raikou, Pokemon that DD CAP20 will fare much better against.

As a result, I believe it's important to use Secondary Ability to buff the Calm Mind set. But how? While we won't be able to improve CAP20's bulk or affect its movepool here, we can make it better at what it's supposed to do. Calm Mind CAP20 will almost certainly be abusing Scald to deter Pokemon like Landorus-T and Excadrill from forcing it out. However, CAP20 has to both hit and burn those Pokemon on the switch to really "win" the matchup (which requires a prediction and a 30% burn chance). I believe we should improve those odds by giving CAP20 Serene Grace.

Serene Grace helps out CM CAP20 more than DD CAP20, just like Water Veil helps out DD CAP20 more than CM. An extra 20% chance for Waterfall to flinch isn't worth giving up burn immunity, while burn immunity isn't worth giving up a 60% chance for Scald to burn an opponent. We gave Calm Mind CAP20 the Physical bulk to be able to set up on super-effective moves from burned opponents. Let's give CAP20 a better chance to actually burn those opponents.

I have to disagree that Water Veil only helps the DD set. The ability to negate that 12% turn per turn is also what makes the CM set so good as it allows it to beat pokemon that would otherwise be a nuisance if they were able to burn CAP 20. I'm talking about pokemon like stall breaker mew, sableye and rotom-w. Without the ability to burn CAP 20, mew cannot touch it at all, allowing for CAP 20 to set up vs mew 1 v 1 even if it does carry taunt as it wears off and mew can't do crap to CAP 20 with knock off/maybe psychic. Negating burns turns Rotom-w volt switch after a CM Boost into a 3HK0 (of course depending on spread) after lefties, essentially meaning we can beat it if we set up enough and it can wear us down with wisp. Same goes for mega sableye as we beat the cm set as we can burn it while it cant burn us as we set up alongside it. My point is i think you are undermining Water Veil's viability for both sets.

Anyway, I feel that Clear Body could be a cool secondary ability that by no means is better than the first. It allows us to beat Mega Manetric when we are +1 with waterfall as well as heavily damage defensive landorus-t upon switch in with our strong waterfall. This also negates any switching around from intimidate users, trying to lower CAP 20s atk to hope to take it on. Of course this ability has nothing on Water Veil as not being burnt is huge for both the DD and the CM set but that's why the secondary ability is there, to be a cool and useful option but no way better than the first. Plus it's pretty fitting for a steel type thus making it a solid choice both competitively and aesthetically.

 

[ginganinja]

Serene Grace helps out CM CAP20 more than DD CAP20, just like Water Veil helps out DD CAP20 more than CM. An extra 20% chance for Waterfall to flinch isn't worth giving up burn immunity, while burn immunity isn't worth giving up a 60% chance for Scald to burn an opponent.

Yea so lets give one of the most cancerous, easily abusable / spammable moves in the game an upgrade and call it a worse ability than Water Veil -__-

This doesn't work DLC, because there is 0 way of knowing what ability is running. DD AND CM can both run Serene Grace, and lose NOTHING because no-one is going to risk giving this thing an extra turn to set up by spamming a Scald, knowing that if they fucked up and its Water Veil, you are 100% wasting your time. Its not even a bad option on DD, because even if the shit hits the fan, you have a 40% chance to hax your way past a counter and win the game. Again, its not like someone's going to waste time attempting a burn when Water Veil exists, the risk and reward is just not worth.

 

[Qwilphish]

Clear Body is a nice ability for the reasons that aim posted – it neutralizes Intimidate preventing Intimidate cores from disrupting the DD sets set-up while still being strictly inferior to the CAP as a whole bc Setting up on more pokes (read: consistency) > beating a few extra Pokemon which can be done with more boosts (if possible, which may not always be possible)

I looked back at the threatlist and saw that Ferro isn't there despite it walling both sets reliable based on what we have. Unless this is just an oversight, I can see Liquid Ooze being an option to lure Ferrothorns by taking away its main source of recovery and damaging it in return and thus whittling it and its teammates passively if it chooses to go for Leech Seed. It also hurts Grass types who rely on Giga Drain for theyre source of damage (Some Venu and Celebi specifically) to surprise them one time to set-up possibly. This ability is niche and is nowhere near as consistent at facilitating CAPs set up as Water Veil so Liquid Ooze is a viable option.

 

[nyttyn]

yeah no to serene grace. 60% iron head flinch, 40% waterfall flinch, 60% scald burn, 40% atk rise from meteor mash, 100% razor shell defense drop, just, @_@

anyways i think shell/battle armor might be cool, removing the possibility of being crit on a CM set is cool tho obviously not as good as no burns. clear body is also cool for its nicheness.

more opinons when i've slept and there are more posts advocating for more abilities, i just wanted to get my extreme disapproval for serene grace out there.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Serene Grace helps out CM CAP20 more than DD CAP20, just like Water Veil helps out DD CAP20 more than CM. An extra 20% chance for Waterfall to flinch isn't worth giving up burn immunity, while burn immunity isn't worth giving up a 60% chance for Scald to burn an opponent. We gave Calm Mind CAP20 the Physical bulk to be able to set up on super-effective moves from burned opponents. Let's give CAP20 a better chance to actually burn those opponents.

You realize that Iron Head has a natural 30% chance to flinch the opponent? That means we're not only heavy hitting and rather fast after a Dragon Dance, but 60% of the time, the opponent can't even fight back against it even if it fails to kill. It's really hard to justify Dragon Dance on a strictly better Jirachi as being inferior to Water Veil. You can't even really not give him Iron Head as a movepool option, because the only other viable physical Steel Attack is Meteor Mash, which would have a 40% chance to buff Attack, which would be absurd. I guess it is true that Serene Grace helps DD less than Calm Mind, in the same way a root canal is less painful than having your hand cut off.

So as a weird suggestion, what about Early Bird as an ability? Assuming we're getting recovery outside of Rest, it still leaves Rest+Early Bird as being strictly worse against anything that actually has burn potential than Other Recovery+Water Veil, and strictly worse if you don't actually have a status on you. However, it gives the Calm Mind set niche use healing off paralysis that either gets haxed onto you by Thunderbolt or applied directly by Thundurus's Thunder Wave, which at least one of our sets should beat.

 

[Zepkhan]

We have burn protection for our DD set, so this ability should focus on the CM set. I reckon electric protection would be broken but crits from special attacks could really play havoc on the CM set so Shell Armor might work well, it would also go with the Water/Steel theme.

 

[P3DS]

I actually agree with NumberCruncher with Early Bird. Also, maybe look at Weak Armor. It is a potentially lethal ability. Set up a DD and then get another speed boost from something like a lando-t EQ. Now that sounds interesting, and can catch a lot off guard. Add in a white herb/kee berry, and watch the CM set go in a different direction, getting faster in return for leftovers

Another useful ability could be filter, but that would be too far. Something like water absorb/dry skin is useful, as we rarely get stuff like that aimed at us, but then it stops the damage if it does. Mold breaker might be nice, as it goes through water absorb/storm drain/unaware (And beats clefable). Also, lets us crit mega slowbro.


I would strongly suggest against any crit blocking abilities. Look at mega slowbro: as it blocks crits, it becomes nigh impossible to take down, and that is its main selling point.

 

[Deck Knight]

Going to join the chorus on pillaging Serene Grace. Serene Grace even makes unSTAB Rock Slide a pain in the butt, especially for a mon we already know will be faster than most Pokemon after a DD.

My proposal would be Sticky Hold. This was discussed in the primary ability thread, but just to go over it again, not having to lose Leftovers to Knock-Off is a huge deal, as is not losing Life Orb on the DD Set. It assists the Calm Mind set more, however, because every single Knock-Off Pokemon absolutely hates being burned, and Scald will be the primary attacking move of the CM Set. Sticky Hold also nullifies the very niche strategy of Trick-Scarfers, several of whom CAP can happily set up on, and - if they think CAP is Water Veil, it will lead to getting to +2 boosts rather than just +1.

 

[Alfalfa]

Sap Sipper allows the CAP to set up on Ferrothorn lacking Thunder Wave, as well as avoiding being crippled by Leech Seed in general. This makes beating Ferrothorn a lot easier, since it is a more consistent check to the CAP.

Sticky Hold is not a bad ability to hold onto Leftovers for Calm Mind set, and being immune to Trick and not losing your item from Knock Off is nice to have. Taking maximum from Knock Off consistently though is annoying.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

Sticky Hold is an ability I'd support, since it benefits both the sets (CM wants Leftovers, DD likes its Life Orb).

I would also like to suggest Limber if we want to keep the status protection theme. Being immune to paralysis benefits the DD set almost exclusively, so it would be an overall inferior choice to Water Veil, but it might be interesting if your team already has ways to deal with burns. A surprise immunity to fast/prankster Thunder Waves can steer the game in your favour without being overpowered in the slightest.

 

[Albacore]

I think Oblivious could be an okay secondary ability for this CAP. It's obviously useless for the DD set, and while the CM set enjoys switching into Scalds a lot, if it runs Sub it can set up on most Scald users anyway so it's not 100% necessary. Oblivious would be an okay option for setting up on Taunt users like Mew, Azelf and Mandibuzz. It's not a very good ability admittedly, but it has its uses, doesn't mess up the checks & counters list, and doesn't eclipse the main ability in terms of how viable it is.

 

[BlackSchwan]

I was initially going to submit Clear Body as the initial ability but there was so much hype over Water Veil, I left it until now. It's a pretty good ability that may not directly overshadow Water Veil. It can be used to save the CAP from unwanted stat drops such as Intimidate from Landorus/Gyarados, prevents chance related drops from moves such as Shadow Ball/Focus Blast and while it is not entirely prevalent it can stop the Speed drop that Stick Web can bring as well.

I would also like to bring the ability in Torrent to the table. Now it doesn't really outclass Water Veil, and it can be used by either set to provide a nice boost when the CAP is at 33% health or less. This could prove to be invaluable for netting last minute KO's with a boost of 1.5x to its main STAB against that mon that you just can't kill due to its recovery. It would be useful to help break walls that none of your other team members may be able to get at.

 

[Burt Racecar]

It's going to be difficult to pick an ability that doesn't overshadow water veil but still offers a significant niche.

Clear Body, Oblivious, Shell Armor seems like the only legitimate options available to us.
I'd also support no competitive ability because Water Veil is fine and dandy for both DD and CM. I don't think anyone fears stat drops, taunt or crits as much as they fear burn.



(I would love to see Serene Grace on this thing but that would far too broken on CAP20!!)

 

[Empress]

About a month ago on #cap, I was speaking with Albacore, Cretacerus, and nyttyn (maybe more) about what ability we could give this CAP after Water Veil. One of them mentioned that CAP 20 will lose to Excadrill in the sand as well as Mega Charizard Y in the sun, so we subsequently threw around the idea of Cloud Nine. This would benefit both sets- for DD, we would be able to outspeed Excadrill and KO it. For CM, as long as we can get to +2, we will be able to avoid the 2HKO from Charizard Y's Fire Blast. That does not solve the threat of Focus Blast, but we can at least force it to rely on a 70 accuracy attack to beat us. May or may not be the best idea- tagging Albacore Cretacerus nyttyn to see if they think Cloud Nine still holds water.

 

[nyttyn]

This would benefit both sets- for DD, we would be able to outspeed Excadrill and KO it.

this is not how cloud nine works

cloud nine simply deletes the direct effects of weather while the user is out, not the weather itself. as sand rush is not weather, sand rush doesn't get affected at all, and excadrill still outspeeds.

 

[Empress]

this is not how cloud nine works

cloud nine simply deletes the direct effects of weather while the user is out, not the weather itself. as sand rush is not weather, sand rush doesn't get affected at all, and excadrill still outspeeds.

No, I just tested Cloud Nine and it does negate Sand Rush.

 

[Sechresse]

I've been lurking on this for a bit and I'm getting pretty excited about CAP 20 so I figured I might try to make some contribution. But I think heatproof might be a good idea for a secondary ability. It doesn't really pull away from water veil usage and I think it that would be a suitable ability for a water/steel type. If one were to use heatproof it could result in some interesting set up or switch in opportunities. For example, a calm mind set would be able to switch into 252+ Band V-Create from Victini and survive the 2HKO (calc below). Now this situation isn't exactly one that CAP 20 wants to be in, but that's just about the strongest physical fire move one might encounter without any prior setup as an example. I think heatproof fits the flavor of CAP 20, doesn't take away from water veil as its primary ability, and may still have some niche uses.

Calcs below using the selected base stat spread: 103/110/90/95/65/97

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 140+ Def Heatproof Empoleon: 172-204 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 312-367 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(140 Def evs is the minimum for V-create to be a 3HKO after rocks and leftovers recovery. I chose this for the calc to account for plenty of space for more specialized spreads or speed creeping.)

 

[DetroitLolcat]

While I don't agree with a lot of the strawmen arguments against Serene Grace, if the TL doesn't want it then I won't press it any further. Regardless, we need to do ourselves a favor and throw a bone at the Calm Mind set. Unless we want to get crazy with something like Storm Drain, I don't see a better Ability than Oblivious or Shell Armor.

But I don't think a single Ability discussed so far will hold a candle to Water Veil. Might as well just go with NCA.

 

[nyttyn]

No, I just tested Cloud Nine and it does negate Sand Rush.

If I'm mistaken on this, my bad. It is surprisingly difficult to find any research on the mechanic.

That being said, I don't want to see any abilities that mess with things that should check us, so Cloud Nine should be off the table if this indeed the case. Excadrill is supposed to solidly check our pokemon, and the secondary ability should not affect that.

 

[Exclaimer]

I've noticed little to no discussion on an ability I've been thinking about. Competitive.

Internally I've been debating the power behind this ability, and the effects behind it. Here's what I've found:

- Intimidate users are wary to switch in unless Dragon Dance has been revealed
- Calm Mind may become a more offensively minded set
- Common special attacking moves like Shadow Ball become a slight liabilty
- Deters Defog
- Mindgames. Is it worth the risk to attempt a burn? If I evolve Mega Manectric, will I be OHKO'ed by Scald?

I believe this ability is a very interesting one because it has some obvious and not so obvious effects, and while powerful, it's not Huge Power or Sheer Force. This ability benefits both sets, just by being available, because Intimidate users will be wary to switch in.

I think this is the only ability that we can use that comes close to Water Veil without completely outclassing it. The questions left to ask, are, does it favor Calm Mind in a way to deter usage of Dragon Dance? I'm inclined towards no, but I've had no discussion with anyone else, so I'd like opinions.

 

[Sabreholo]

A couple of abilities that I'd like to bring up that are inferior to water veil but are still potentially useful that have not yet been mentioned are Mummy, Shield Dust, and Compound Eyes. Mummy helps discourage physical pokemon that rely on their abilities, such as technician users (Scizor, Breloom) , Azumarill, and Jirachi flinch spam as examples to enable us easier set up (also it doesn't really mess with our threat list at all due to most of it being EQ spam or otherwise non-contact). Mummy is my favourite of these three as I feel it benefits CM the most which I think needs more support than DD thus far ( as other users have pointed out) Shield Dust is an inferior water veil with the unique benefit with allowing us to ignore flinch hax and other unfortunate chance based effects. Finally Compound Eyes helps with meteor mash and various possible coverage moves such as play rough or icicle crash. I also would like to put support behind Heatproof/Thick Fat and Mold Breaker as the former is helpful defensively against Talonflame and Volcarona (both part of our set up fodder lists), and Mold breaker helps mainly against Unaware users ( and unfortunately or not as has been pointed out, helps us beat Excadrill, but also in line with what others have said, I don't think it'll be a tragedy if we lose some counters/checks from our universal list).

 

[ganj4lF]

Shed Skin may be something worth considering: it's bad for DD, since those sets value burn immunity a lot and usually start sweeping after a boost, so waiting for the ability to remove status is not good; CM sets are slower to build up boosts and may be more likely to pack recovery of some sort, thus the ability gains the minor appeal of being able to remove sleep or paralysis if CAP is already boosted enough to tank through a few turns.

Besides that, I like stuff like Oblivious and Sticky Hold: they actually do something to help CAP sweeps while not overshadowing Water Veil. Serene Grace is obviously too powerful, while I find many of the proposed alternative useless. I'll post more reasoning later, I guess.