np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Blasian62]

ITP: Aegi can't check stuff becuase it can get haxed or predicted with an extremely rare set.

My god, Aegi is a darned check, no one said it's switching into every move a poke can pack. Using your logic, Mew has no checks cause it can run basically any relevant move. A check needs to switch into one darned move, the more moves, the better the check. It can switch into every move Chansey can ever run bar T-Wave, of course it's a fucking check. I don't care if the rare weird sets screw my check, if it kills Chansey it's done it's job. Sacred Sword Aegi will always kill Chansey before it is killed.
If the best you can do it T-Wave a slow poke, you are countered, as Aegi is immune to every damaging move/status Chansey will ever use out of low ladder (and they do sod all SE, hence why no one uses them, let alone are they harming Aegi). Name a mon who doesn't normally beat Aegi who wins if it's para'd, without factoring in hax, cause I can't think of one.

I think you need to learn what a check is.

I don't care about the official definition, which anyway if you cared to read on in it, "There are some things, like flinching, which you would normally consider to be hax but aren't always so...Even though they might fit the standard definition of hax, they happen often enough for you to expect to see them in real situations somewhat commonly.There's no official or best guideline, but in my opinion, if some form of "hax" has a 30% chance or higher of happening, you should keep it in the back of your mind because it's not a negligible occurrence." Paralysis is set at 25% of the time, pretty close to 30% so that definitely has a factor. In your far-off world where things don't get paralyzed ever, sure paralysis wouldn't matter, but in actuality it does happen. I don't think you understand that each team gets 6 pokemon. Who cares if Chansey can't KO Aegi? Who is trying to do that? If Aegi is paralyzed it's easier for other pokemon on the team of 6 to take care of it. Since by the definition and interpreting paralysis as not hax, mons without factoring in hax that can't normally beat Aegi are Shadowball Gardevoir, Flamethrower Clefable, Mega Altaria with eq, Sableye when it burns Aegi because the burn would not be considered hax. That's just a few. I think you need to learn what hax is. Oh yeah, and t-wave on Chansey, Slowbro, and Jirachi isn't rare or weird.
Edit: Just watch this battle I found and you tell me paralysis doesn't happen. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-226200983
Also here is a battle where Chansey beats a burned Aegislash. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-226187748

 

[Alfalfa]

In X and Y u could make a case that aegislash is broken, however RN Im not sure if u can really make that case
Aegislash has fit right into this broken A@@ meta tbh and thats not really a good thing. There's so much over centralizing in the meta ATM that aegislash in a wired way almost balances it out. To all of you who say thats it will hurt the meta think to yourself, can it get any worse, idk about how much it can improve the meta but from a centralizing, "brokenness" standpoint it fits right in with all the other Op mons in the meta atm and while thats not a good thing

its the truth

As AM said if we're going to test aegi dont be to balance out the meta, YOU DO THIS BY BANNING THINGS NOT ADDING
Ive seen ALOT of people doing what they did in x and y with replacing a random poke on their team with aegi and the results are no where near as successful as the test in x and y which was decided by a mere 2 votes

From my experiences Im voting to bring aegi to ou unless someone can change my mind, im open minded about this

So Aegislash balances everything out by requiring almost every Pokemon to have some way to beat it? Aegislash balances everything out by turning a diverse meta into one that requires three or four checks just for a single Pokemon? Aegislash balances everything out by being able to deal with almost any defensive Pokemon that a Pokemon would be troubled by, even Pokemon that are supposed to check it? Aegislash balances out the metagame by making many of the top threats even more difficult to deal with? If anything, Aegislash is doing the exact opposite of balancing everything out.

 

[teamsnickers]

So Aegislash balances everything out by requiring almost every Pokemon to have some way to beat it? Aegislash balances everything out by turning a diverse meta into one that requires three or four checks just for a single Pokemon? Aegislash balances everything out by being able to deal with almost any defensive Pokemon that a Pokemon would be troubled by, even Pokemon that are supposed to check it? Aegislash balances out the metagame by making many of the top threats even more difficult to deal with? If anything, Aegislash is doing the exact opposite of balancing everything out.

I think you're missing what i said
NOTHING you can add to a meta will balance it out.. you do this by banning, this is why the meta is the worst we ever had
My take is that aegi is not broken is this meta nor over centralizing IMO and thats why it should be in ou

 

[Machi]

To all of you who say thats it will hurt the meta think to yourself, can it get any worse, idk about how much it can improve the meta but from a centralizing, "brokenness" standpoint it fits right in with all the other Op mons in the meta atm and while thats not a good thing

The problem primarily in letting something balance out singlehandedly an entire metagame that is considered unhealthy is the problem of the real causes being masked, when you bring something down to instead address the symptom rather than the cause well as we've seen in the previous generation it creates a balance but not necessarily the most ideal one (think weather wars).

More importantly, when you consider trying to rejuvenate a tier it should be that suddenly more opportunities arise at least from a team building stand point. I'm not sure how anyone can claim more opportunities arise when... your team building will suddenly include an almost mandatory member in the form of Aegislash just to secure yourself against the most relevant threats.

Meaning team building hasn't changed in so much that if you don't opt to run Aegis the threats which could easily over power your team remain dominating. Unless, you Aegis... but I am not sure having a pokemon that is almost mandatory, because of how it can easily fit in any team, is necessarily a good thing.

You provided an answer to the metagame but... it is essentially the only answer being posited, and I don't think that is at all healthy. Which is why I agree banning is the better option here since that actually provides more breathing room in options, and not simply be told stick this to your team and it will be fine.

 

[Empress]

I don't care about the official definition, which anyway if you cared to read on in it, "There are some things, like flinching, which you would normally consider to be hax but aren't always so...There's no official or best guideline, but in my opinion, if some form of "hax" has a 30% chance or higher of happening, you should keep it in the back of your mind because it's not a negligible occurrence." Paralysis is set at 25% of the time, pretty close to 30% so that definitely has a factor. I don't think you understand that each team gets 6 pokemon. Who cares if Chansey can't KO Aegi? Who is trying to do that? If Aegi is paralyzed it's easier for other pokemon on the team of 6 to take care of it. Since by the definition and interpreting paralysis as not hax, mons without factoring in hax that can't normally beat Aegi are Shadowball Gardevoir, Flamethrower Clefable, Mega Altaria with eq, Sableye when it burns Aegi because the burn would not be considered hax. That's just a few. I think you need to learn what hax is.

Just took a selfie in response to this

Just so this isn't a shitpost:

"I don't care about the official definition." Hax is hax, and we can't change the definition of it. Whether the secondary effect has a 10% or a 30% occurrence, if you're banking on it to carry you to victory then it's shaky. Moreover, it's true that a paralyzed Aegi is a sad Aegi- that's A+ logic, my friend, but any paralyzed Pokemon is a sad one. We're not unbanning Deoxys-A because it can get burned by Scald or it can be paralyzed. STATUS IS CRIPPLING FOR DAMN NEAR EVERY SINGLE POKEMON. You're not switching Aegi into a predicted T-Wave, either- it does not have to switch in on that! Do you really think that Aegi needs to be able to reliably com in on every damn thing to be broken? One last thing too: Chansey runs Toxic over T-wave most of the time (and never runs both on the same set). Do your research, please.

 

[teamsnickers]

The problem primarily in letting something balance out singlehandedly an entire metagame that is considered unhealthy is the problem of the real causes being masked, when you bring something down to instead address the symptom rather than the cause well as we've seen in the previous generation it creates a balance but not necessarily the most ideal one (think weather wars).

More importantly, when you consider trying to rejuvenate a tier it should be that suddenly more opportunities arise at least from a team building stand point. I'm not sure how anyone can claim more opportunities arise when... your team building will suddenly include an almost mandatory member in the form of Aegislash just to secure yourself against the most relevant threats.

Meaning team building hasn't changed in so much that if you don't opt to run Aegis the threats which could easily over power your team remain dominating. Unless, you Aegis... but I am not sure having a pokemon that is almost mandatory, because of how it can easily fit in any team, is necessarily a good thing. You provided an answer to the metagame but... it is essentially the only answer being posited, and I don't think that is at all healthy.

Its not a great answer but in a shitty meta like this its really the only thing we can do IMO,
No mon can by itself balance an entire metagame, but it cant make it worse than it already is

aegi can benefit this metagame in many ways even being the glue that holds it together (iidk if u can even call this a meta the way it is atm) you fix a metagame by banning but there's SO MANY THINGS that need to be banned to create a "perfect meta" that this will NEVER happen, so you salvage what u can keep in mind only 2 votes banned aegislash in x and y
is it really broken? or a blessing in a shield *see what i did there xDD)

 

[Machi]

Its not a good answer but in a shitty meta like this its really the only thing we can do IMO,
No mon can by itself balance an entire metagame, but it cant make it worse than it already is

And that is the problem there... it essentially entails that we've given up trying to improve it further after this test, because borderline issues straddle that boundary since they've all received a solid check. At least by observation many prolific megas suddenly are knocked down a peg at least.

It is a band aid solution is the problem, and it will only prolong not looking for the real causes. Of course we may ban a few other things here and there or at least suspect them, but with something potentially prolific running around the tier it will be harder to look into mons that are borderline.

 

[teamsnickers]

And that is the problem there... it essentially entails that we've given up trying to improve it further after this test, because borderline issues straddle that boundary since they've all received a solid check.

It is a band aid solution is the problem, and it will only prolong not looking for the real causes. Of course we may ban a few other things here and there or at least suspect them, but with something potentially prolific running around the tier it will be harder to look into mons that are borderline.

I edited that post btw but to your points
There's so much borderline ***** in this meta its not really hard to find lol
This is literally the most broken af metagame atm BUT if u put enough VERY good stuff together in the same metagame than is it really "broken" in that metagame? (like ubers not toa wayyy lesser extent) however i get where youre coming from

 

[Machi]

I edited that post btw but to your points
There's so much borderline ***** in this meta its not really hard to find lol
This is literally the most broken af metagame atm BUT if u put enough VERY good stuff together in the same metagame than is it really "broken" in that metagame? (like ubers not toa wayyy lesser extent) however i get where youre coming from

I think the first thing is that while we cannot create a perfect meta it doesn't preclude we cannot strive for a better one and that entails a long process. I agree many things are borderline, megas especially in general because are built exactly to straddle that fine line between a trump card but not entirely being too overbearing.

That also means being able to look into what we consider as characteristics of being broken and reconsidering to be something more relevant to the the metagame. The problem with Aegis is I actually find the mentality more backwards than forward in progress since yes he doesn't outright overpower everything to easily sweep them or have the recovery to aid in his defensive prowess and somehow that means he isn't considered problematic. He certainly doesn't fit the traditional mold but it is funny how people advocate to move past that old way of thinking to make it relevant but use it as justification against borderline issues in keeping them afloat.

However, there is something to be said in a mon that somehow manages to comprise both offense and defense into one role to be more than potent - so much so that his void in the tier could be evidently felt along with his return. Aegislash in itself is a fine example of these borderline problems that need to be seriously looked into. Just because he somehow fits in with a rather disagreeable environment shouldn't preclude that it is okay, if anything it asks us to seriously consider past our previous mentality of only trying to shoe horn Pokemon as solely offensive/defensive/support threats but instead broaden the spectrum in what we consider a problem.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

Good to see you guys are retesting Aegislash. Somehow, he's sorta nostalgic to me even though the whole XY meta only happened two years ago or so. Anyway, while I definitely agree that Aegislash's overcentralization is now hurt with the introduction of new megas (namely Mega Lopunny), I still think it might be a bit too much for the current meta. In addition to what it checked before, it now checks new megas Metagross (takes a bit from EQ variants but can OHKO back with shadow ball), Diancie (again, takes a bit from earth power but can wreck it with any steel-type move), and Mega Slowbro, among others. Furthermore, the readdition of Aegislash would likely cause ground-types to become even more common, so Landorus-I would be even more centralizing. But that's just my two cents.

 

[Aberforth]

Thing is that other than Lando, I think most would agree Metagross is the strongest mon currently in OU, and Aegislash is the least OP that is in ubers that can be tested. If the community decided that Metagross wasn't broken, and that Aegislash is broken, then the state of OU is in a very unusual position where nothing is too OP for Ubers (aside from lando), but also nothing is not OP enough to be let down from OU. So this is the only way we can take steps towards a better metagame aside from testing lando, and lando is merely a symptom, not the problem itself, and banning Lando would only go so far. OU would remain almost as matchup reliant as it is now unless things are unbanned, and the list of things that could be unbanned without being ridiculously overpowered are limited really to Aegislash and Giratina (either form, yes I'm still annoyed at the april fools). Suspecting more things after Lando wont work, because after lando the next most powerful mon is one that the community decided was not broken.

As for Aegislash itself, I think it is not too overpowered for OU from my 30 or so games on the ladder, but that might just be my team (using stall). I will try out the other playstyles before I make up my mind on Aegislash, but I cant see this as being something that is too good for OU.

 

[Halcyon.]

Listen I want Aegi back as much as the next guy but claiming you can beat it via T-wave is just plain stupid. Literally any mon can lose to T-wave.

 

[Blasian62]

Listen I want Aegi back as much as the next guy but claiming you can beat it via T-wave is just plain stupid. Literally any mon can lose to T-wave.

I'll humor you. First Ground and electric types are immune so not literally everything. The point if you didn't read earlier is that things Aegislash might normally check or even counter these pokemon, but they can damage it on the switch in or cripple it with status like para which you already said that it loses to. Aegi isn't just the perfect check or counter for these pokemon, and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Anduril]

Anyone who has played the Aegi XY meta can agree that Aegi was overcentralizing. It still the same here. Aegi checks near half the meta and it has incredible utility in that it can run near 10 sets to success, making sure that you will never be sure what it's running. It is a great partner to top mons and can cause mind games with KS. Psychics were nearly nonexistent due to its presence, as well as other mons. I respect that the council is trying to change it's policy, but unbanning Aegi is not the way to do it. Re-suspecting Metagross and banning Lando-I imo are the ways for the meta to get better.

 

[SaberSeven]

My thoughts on Aegislash is that it should stay Uber. Back in XY, it was quite overcentralizing with teams running Aegislash + Aegislash counter + 4 mons. With this test, we're getting more or less of the same. Yes; ORAS has provided a power creep with Mega Metagross & friends and Aegislash beats sets that don't pack Earthquake, but if we bring Aegislash back, we're pretty much back to Aegislash + Aegislash counter + 4 mons. Aegislash also severely hinders the viability of mons like Jirachi, Celebi, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie, Latias,...pretty much about half the meta. Taking away King's Shield for Protect, while it would help physical attackers, I don't think won't make too much of a difference either.

tl;dr: It's best that Aegislash stays Uber.

 

[Anttya]

After getting reqs, I can say that Aegislash is overcentralizing atm but it isn't near broken. It may check half of the tier, namely Psychic types but it lacks reliable recovery so it's easily worn down. To people who say Aegislash makes Psychic types unusable, then what about Bisharp and Tyranitar? They can easily kill it with their STABs and they both have access to Pursuit. In addition to that, other than a Toxic immunity, Aegislash is still very weak to status such as burns since it wears it down even faster. Ghost / Steel may be an unique typing, but it's still weak to common Fire and Ground moves. It's also checked by a ton of common Pokemon such as Heatran and Chomp so you don't have to run sketchy Pokemon (nor moves) to deal with it. Power wise, it's stronger than your average bulky Pokemon but it's "weak" without investment and if you spend too much on attack you end up losing a lot of Aegislash's bulk, and with its speed, it's not really going to do much once it's worn down. However, the one thing I like about it, is that it makes the metagame less matchup based by giving everyone a trump card that can be customized depending on what your team needs. And unlike Gren, it isn't stupidly fast and powerful with its coverage moves.

 

[MZ]

I'll humor you. First Ground and electric types are immune so not literally everything. The point if you didn't read earlier is that things Aegislash might normally check or even counter these pokemon, but they can damage it on the switch in or cripple it with status like para which you already said that it loses to. Aegi isn't just the perfect check or counter for these pokemon, and I'll just leave it at that.

Wow, ground types can't get paralyzed! Point invalidated!

Seriously though, if you're gonna go their far why not just say Aegislash loses to crits, since apparently hax is admissible. Hell, a check doesn't always have to switch in. What if you leave your Mega Altaria in on the mega gardevoir predicting wisp/shadow ball and hyper voice it? This goes both ways. I also don't see tornadus therian switching into mega gallade/heracross easily, yet it's still gaining popularity because it's an excellent fighting check because it can revenge kill things like gallade and Heracross that it doesn't switch into. The definition of a check is winning with a free switch into the mon it's checking. Not only is your argument totally wrong because Aegislash does check all of the things you said could hax their way out of it, it doesn't have to switch in to be a blanket check to the meta, which, although neutering its effectiveness, still makes it incredibly splashable as a safety net for most of the overpowered stuff in the meta (except for the only one that might go to Ubers which can just earth power non AB variants). Aegislash is still an incredibly splashable safety net similar to XY thundy-I's priority Twave being the best thing ever to fit on every offense and balance team.

tldr Aegislash does check those things. Now can we get back to valid unbanning arguments?

 

[quagback2qc]

After playing on the suspect ladder for a while, I have come to the conclusion that Aegislash really isn't broken, and that the meta needs such an overcentralizing force. First of all, can we really state how Aegislash is overcentralizing? Sure, it forces Garde to run Shadow Ball, and checks many bulky Psychics, but then what? It is checked easily by Heatran and Garchomp, two of the most prominent and common pokes in OU. The overcentralization argument as a whole may carry some weight, but it is definitely overhyped to an extreme level. Next on the argument list: KS 50/50s. These may make playing against Aegislash more based on luck than skill, but doesn't Sucker Punch as well? King's Shield doesn't make Aegislash broken on and extreme level like an Uber mon should, and not every game is based on the 50/50s it creates. Aegislash isn't much more broken with KS than Bisharp is with Sucker Punch. Speaking of Bisharp, another one of the tier's most common mons, KS doesn't bother it at all.

Also, Aegi was specifically brought down to check powerful attackers like Megagross, Mega Garde, and Mega Diancie. So why are we complaining? Isn't this what the suspect test was about? Aegi has numerous checks in the regular OU metagame, and isn't really broken with King's Shield. Also, isn't a metagame based on luck preferable to a matchup based one?

These reasons are why Aegi should move down to OU

 

[Blasian62]

Wow, ground types can't get paralyzed! Point invalidated!

Seriously though, if you're gonna go their far why not just say Aegislash loses to crits, since apparently hax is admissible. Hell, a check doesn't always have to switch in. What if you leave your Mega Altaria in on the mega gardevoir predicting wisp/shadow ball and hyper voice it? This goes both ways. I also don't see tornadus therian switching into mega gallade/heracross easily, yet it's still gaining popularity because it's an excellent fighting check because it can revenge kill things like gallade and Heracross that it doesn't switch into. The definition of a check is winning with a free switch into the mon it's checking. Not only is your argument totally wrong because Aegislash does check all of the things you said could hax their way out of it, it doesn't have to switch in to be a blanket check to the meta, which, although neutering its effectiveness, still makes it incredibly splashable as a safety net for most of the overpowered stuff in the meta (except for the only one that might go to Ubers which can just earth power non AB variants). Aegislash is still an incredibly splashable safety net similar to XY thundy-I's priority Twave being the best thing ever to fit on every offense and balance team.

tldr Aegislash does check those things. Now can we get back to valid unbanning arguments?

"tldr" Perfectly sums up your argument, not reading any of the previous things except that that ground types don't get paralyzed, which I had to say because he said "Literally any mon" when not literally all get para'd from t-wave, so thanks for your agreement. If you actually read any of the other previous arguments you'd be educated. And of course prediction goes both ways, which I already explained in a previous comment, which your argument isn't even that good; what if you leave Mega Altaria in on something that actually checks it well instead of something it can outspeed and hit hard? I'm not even going to argue in depth about your free switch argument because I don't need to. Doesn't matter if Aegi will eventually win 1v1 and can check. If a pokemon like Chansey, free switch or not, can cripple it first and then switch out, then Aegislash isn't the perfect check.

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-376 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-376 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

Sure Aegi wins 1v1, but Chansey can t-wave and take a hit then switch out to another counter, simple as that. Chansey can also switch out with full health depending on para or not. This is just an example if you can understand. Teams also have 6 pokemon if you didn't read that already, which I know you didn't. Aegi also isn't invincible and doesn't have perfect recovery.

 

[zbr]

After playing on the suspect ladder for a while, I have come to the conclusion that Aegislash really isn't broken, and that the meta needs such an overcentralizing force.

aite. "meta needs such an overcentralising force"? overcentralisation is such a horrible thing for a game to experience because it means that there will end up having very little variety in the metgame. this is not something we need to be honest, considering that all it does is to add more pressure when it comes team building as well as matchups

First of all, can we really state how Aegislash is overcentralizing? Sure, it forces Garde to run Shadow Ball, and checks many bulky Psychics, but then what? It is checked easily by Heatran and Garchomp, two of the most prominent and common pokes in OU. The overcentralization argument as a whole may carry some weight, but it is definitely overhyped to an extreme level.

it isn't that we are over hyping it. it is unfortunately true. you say as if this form of blanket check is achievable by any mon on the street and it is something that we shouldn't pay attention to. i doubt this is true unfortunately. the sheer fact that teams have devolved into "aegi + 1/2 aegi check + 3/4 fillers" mirror matches is something that overcentralization brings about. as much as we are individuals playing this game, we exert a force as a community and we should always keep in mind the big picture. should aegi come back, this overcentralisation won't just create harder matchups but make the game even more dice roll-y since it would come down to matchup, luck and less so of skill since aegi is a simple blanket check to a good number of things in the tier.

Next on the argument list: KS 50/50s. These may make playing against Aegislash more based on luck than skill, but doesn't Sucker Punch as well? King's Shield doesn't make Aegislash broken on and extreme level like an Uber mon should, and not every game is based on the 50/50s it creates. Aegislash isn't much more broken with KS than Bisharp is with Sucker Punch. Speaking of Bisharp, another one of the tier's most common mons, KS doesn't bother it at all.

isn't this more so of a reason to ban it? unlike ks, sucker punch can be avoided by either having a faster +1 priority or simply using +2 or higher priority. sucker punch also doesn't have the down side of harshly lowering your foe's attack stat, which even largely skewers the 5050. to add salt to the wound, aegi actually has a lot going for it when it comes to 50/50 matchups because it can simply avoid the loss of 5050 by running away whereas if it wins the 5050 that you're willing to bet, you're in a good boat. tldr - aegi will most likely have the upper hand in terms of 5050 despite ks downside of having less chance to proc compared to protect.

Also, Aegi was specifically brought down to check powerful attackers like Megagross, Mega Garde, and Mega Diancie. So why are we complaining? Isn't this what the suspect test was about? Aegi has numerous checks in the regular OU metagame, and isn't really broken with King's Shield. Also, isn't a metagame based on luck preferable to a matchup based one?

These reasons are why Aegi should move down to OU

"Also, isn't a metagame based on luck preferable to a matchup based one?" <- this is the most aids comment i've heard all day. who the fuck wants to lose to a cointoss or a matchup issue?! our aim is to lower the chances of these happening. not heighten it by having ridiculous ideals about the metagame .. sure aegi serves as a blanket check to all these mons. but you must always keep in mind that this is going to end up devolving the metagame into a series of mirror matches between teams that carry "aegi + 1/2 aegi check + 3/4 fillers". to add on, this is pretty much like the whole lando keldeo trapper problem in gen 5 bw2. aegi is like a catalyst. it aids the powerful attackers by being an all purpose mon that is able to put in substantial amount of work against teams by weakening relevant checks to the said top threats. if the metagame is going to come to a case of "who best plays their aegi", then wouldn't that be a pretty big problem in ensuring the stability of the metagame as well as all our efforts in trying to make the game more skill based rather than luck based?

 

[MZ]

"tldr" Perfectly sums up your argument, not reading any of the previous things except that that ground types don't get paralyzed, which I had to say because he said "Literally any mon" when not literally all get para'd from t-wave, so thanks for your agreement. If you actually read any of the other previous arguments you'd be educated. And of course prediction goes both ways, which I already explained in a previous comment, which your argument isn't even that good; what if you leave Mega Altaria in on something that actually checks it well instead of something it can outspeed and hit hard? I'm not even going to argue in depth about your free switch argument because I don't need to. Doesn't matter if Aegi will eventually win 1v1 and can check. If a pokemon like Chansey, free switch or not, can cripple it first and then switch out, then Aegislash isn't the perfect check.

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-376 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-376 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

Sure Aegi wins 1v1, but Chansey can t-wave and take a hit then switch out to another counter, simple as that. Chansey can also switch out with full health depending on para or not. This is just an example if you can understand. Teams also have 6 pokemon if you didn't read that already, which I know you didn't. Aegi also isn't invincible and doesn't have perfect recovery.

First of all I'd be slightly more inclined to agree with anything you say if you stopped with things like "if you didn't read that already, which I know you didn't". But anyway, this post doesn't actually seem to address the points that I brought up. You argued that Aegislash doesn't check things because of potential hax. I said that was crap as hax shouldn't be factored in, plus Aegislash still checks them hax or not. In return, you brought up how 252/252+ Thunder wave Chansey counters non SD Aegislash, how teams have 6 pokemon, and how Aegislash isn't invincible and doesn't have recovery. I mean what. Even if Chansey thunder waves it and then "switches out to another counter" (because every team runs Chansey and then 3 Aegislash counters depending on the set you scout!) you've still crippled Chansey, hit the next mon, and can then switch out, thus fulfilling your role as a pivot. Besides, Chansey can take a hit and cripple it (unless sub) but can diancie or starmie or the other mentioned mons? I understand this is one example, but I'm honestly having a hard time coming up with another one. You dismissed my Mega Altaria example because, according to you altaria outspeeds and hits gardevoir hard. Yet Gardevoir speed ties with altaria before mega evolving and easily outspeeds after, so ?_?. Maybe I misread that but I'm fairly certain you're saying that gardevoir doesn't check altaria well as opposed to something that's faster, and if not please be more clear in your posts. But here's my main problem with your reply. You state that if Chansey can cripple Aegislash and then switch out, Aegislash isn't the perfect check. Not only is this near unique to Chansey and maybe cresselia, but your Chansey is now at half health and can't switch into something like Zard Y. Sure you can hope for parahax to have a full health Chansey, but recovering can give Aegislash the perfect chance to pivot out into something like Bisharp. My point is, even in this perfectly ideal scenario you casted, Aegislash is still doing its job. And this is a very unique situation. But I'm gonna be honest, this whole point is moot because you're wrong. Aegislash is a check to those mons. You haven't disproved this. You just said Chansey paralyzes it. And if it's not the "perfect check to Chansey", who cares? It's a good check, one that can abuse it with sub/toxic and forces it to lose toxic for thunder wave, and can still check all those other mons in addition to Chansey.

Oh, and even if paralyzed Aegislash can still just come in on a Chansey or a cresselia or Slowbro and wall and/or threaten it later on in the match. At least I'm assuming a stall team or a team with at least 3 defensive members, since where else would you run a Chansey? It's not going on a HO team that can abuse Aegislash being paralyzed.

Edit: not gonna put a tldr because if you can't bother to read another person's arguments in a debate, then whaaa?

 

[ボーイ]

Just thinking back in early X&Y I'm so sure that Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Genesect, Lucarionite, and even Mawilite were still around, along with Aegislash. Now as biased as I am about wanting Aegislash back in OU, I don't think there's really a good argument about Aegislash balancing the metagame. X&Y and ORAS are just too different in comparison. Maybe if Volcanion and Hoopa were around by now, more people would lean towards the unbanning, but they aren't. Anyways to be honest, I'm probably just like any other plebeian, and really all I want to do right now is help people get those reqs. I feel like Mandibuzz is becoming the Based Defogger in the test right now, if you haven't caught up to it why not give it a try. I'm also gonna try Drapion out holding pursuit and Snarl, probably AV with a serious nature since sp. atk is already way too weak. I know it's gimmicky but it's for me, and I really want to get reqs on this. I'm definitely gonna update if I make reqs and I'm voting for unban if I do. If its broke then idgaf.

 

[feen]

The thing is that the metagame without Aegislash is very stale right now with the rise of Starmie, Celebi and Jirachi. Mandibuzz will definitely be on the rise, while the former ones will fall. It's definitely going to be a more cetralizing meta, with almost every team carrying an Aegislash, and an Aegislash counter/check. Now the thing is, didn't we have a Gliscor/Lando counter/check on every team before? Didn't we have a Mega Diancie check? We obviously did. The only thing about Aegislash is that it causes too much 50/50s; some of which are game changing. For now I don't think it's on a level of 'broken' but it'll definitely be the face of OU.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

The thing is that the metagame without Aegislash is very stale right now with the rise of Starmie, Celebi and Jirachi. Mandibuzz will definitely be on the rise, while the former ones will fall. It's definitely going to be a more cetralizing meta, with almost every team carrying an Aegislash, and an Aegislash counter/check. Now the thing is, didn't we have a Gliscor/Lando counter/check on every team before? Didn't we have a Mega Diancie check? We obviously did. The only thing about Aegislash is that it causes too much 50/50s; some of which are game changing. For now I don't think it's on a level of 'broken' but it'll definitely be the face of OU.

So, your argument is that the meta is stale right now, so we need to add something to the meta that will cause the meta to be centralized around it, dictating what will be on everyone's teams just as surely as whatever's good in the current meta does? Well, that'll liven the meta up a bit...for about 3 or 4 days after the suspect test ends. And on the 5th day after the test ends...then what? We'll be back to seeing the same teams over and over again. Different teams from what we have now, perhaps, but the Aegi meta will have the same problems in repetitive team design (if not even worse) that the current meta does. Making the meta less stale is important, but unbanning something that has enormous potential to centralize the tier around itself in order to do this is a VERY temporary solution to that problem. And once that solution runs out of juice, then we're stuck again, in a meta we dislike for the same types of reasons, and we'll have to wait even LONGER before we get another opportunity to fix it. I've made a number of posts about how I feel Aegislash is broken, and how it doesn't really hurt the viability of the current top offenders, and I stand by these posts, but I'd like it to be known that I am not so stubborn as to think there could never be a situation when we could unban stuff from Ubers. But as many others have said, what we need right now are BANS not UNBANS.

 

[mertyville]

I don't understand how Pokemon like Starmie being unviable is even an argument for Aegislash being unhealthy. I mean it should be taken for granted that if a Pokemon is banned/reintroduced/introduced/unbanned that some Pokemon become viable/unviable.
I mean this is the point of the meta shift, some Pokemon get better and some get worse. Just look how Serperiour affected the viability of something like Slowbro.

Was Jirachi such a key Pokemon in this meta that it become less viable would mean that Aegislash is even near the definition of unhealthy or broken?