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I actually disagree with vibrava dropping. It's resistances to edge-quake, reliable recovery, ground typing and momentum gainer with u-turn, i'd say it's worth a place on the ranking thread. (I'd have agreed before I tried using it)
I also disagree with mantine dropping any further than B, it's one of the best defoggers in the tier and water + air slash is hard to switch into. Sure it doesn't have camel + typh to add to its checking cv but it is still very good.
The one annoying thing about quag is the lack of stealth rock and weakness to status. For the most part, i'd prefer to use seismitoad 9 times out of 10 to it so i'm unsure if it is worthy of A-.
Agree with bolts on the rise of pyroar + mag, pyroar should be the new fire type !!!!!! :]
I think hariyama will now be better with guts, being able to switch in safely on scald and wow is just as good as taking a little less from magmortar and pyroar. I used guts before ORAS and it was amazing.
True, but there's the surprise factor (how many times haven't people tried to burn your Hariyama?) and also the fact that Hariyama is not restricted to AV but can also run CB which hits ridiculously hard with Guts. Which would be outclassed by Sawk if it wasn't for Guts, and Hariyama is just much more of a tank. AV with Guts is also good because if you're statused you have boosted priority Fake Out + BP which helps a lot against offense. Oh yeah and the point was that Gurdurr is obviously restricted to Eviolite.
I think you missed the point, Hariyama has much more special defence than Gurdurr does and can afford to run speed/ and other items besides AV
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 230-270 (61.4 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 126 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 168-199 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I actually disagree with vibrava dropping. It's resistances to edge-quake, reliable recovery, ground typing and momentum gainer with u-turn, i'd say it's worth a place on the ranking thread. (I'd have agreed before I tried using it)
I also disagree with mantine dropping any further than B, it's one of the best defoggers in the tier and water + air slash is hard to switch into. Sure it doesn't have camel + typh to add to its checking cv but it is still very good.
The one annoying thing about quag is the lack of stealth rock and weakness to status. For the most part, i'd prefer to use seismitoad 9 times out of 10 to it so i'm unsure if it is worthy of A-.
Agree with bolts on the rise of pyroar + mag, pyroar should be the new fire type !!!!!! :]
Well I guess I can see your argument about vibrava although I still think it's not that good at all. But Quagsire and toad are still very different mons, which I feel can't be compared. On toads side it has better bulk, knock off, rocks, and offensive capabities as a lead. On Quags side it has great recovery, curse and unaware. With those perks Quagsire has, it's able to stop a plethora of top tier threats like I said, Toad can't beat malamar, it can't beat sd scyther even with max special attack since hydro only does 44-53 so roost spam, it can't beat megadino,
can't beat musharna. The fact that quagsire can beat all of these mons reliably is worth A rank.
Mantine on the other hand, I would rather use a vibrava right now than mantine ._. It's weak to rocks, has bad Defence, no recovery. I mean most mantine's are running max def/max hp so my question now is... Why not use pelliper or even swanna? I mean pyroar and magmorter the best fire types right now , pyroar 2HKO's physically defensive mantine with rocks up, magmorter gets thunderbolt. It's also difficult to find a good time to defog. It's only niches are it's incredible spdef which is easily taken advantage of with moves like psyshock and it's ability water absorb. I just think with the amount of physical attackers in the tier and the fact it can't wall many mons at all means it should be C+/B-. I'm sure PU would be very happy to get it back.
I actually disagree with vibrava dropping. It's resistances to edge-quake, reliable recovery, ground typing and momentum gainer with u-turn, i'd say it's worth a place on the ranking thread. (I'd have agreed before I tried using it)
I also disagree with mantine dropping any further than B, it's one of the best defoggers in the tier and water + air slash is hard to switch into. Sure it doesn't have camel + typh to add to its checking cv but it is still very good.
The one annoying thing about quag is the lack of stealth rock and weakness to status. For the most part, i'd prefer to use seismitoad 9 times out of 10 to it so i'm unsure if it is worthy of A-.
Agree with bolts on the rise of pyroar + mag, pyroar should be the new fire type !!!!!! :]
You bring up some good points, but there are a few things that I disagree with.
Vibrava: you say that its niche is resisting edgequake, reliable recovery, clearing entry hazards, and u-turn. If I wanted something that resists edgequake, I'd much sooner use Torterra or Claydol since I feel they perform this role better than Vibrava does; Torterra having reliable recovery (albeit Sythnesis isnt too common) and Claydol spinning away entry hazards. That leaves U-turn along with those aspects its only niche. Is that worthy of ranking it? I don't think it is, but its also a question that should be posed in terms of rankings previously unranked Pokemon - how does it perform a role that another Pokemon does in a different way that gives it a worthy niche?
Now you aren't wrong at all, but at what point can you justify using Mantine over the other two Water / Flying types? They both have the same STAB moves as Mantine and reliable recovery in Roost which Mantine doesn't have, and they can also Defog. We've established that the three of them aren't as good of Fire checks as they used to be (Mantine and Pelipper as the defensive ones, Swanna as the offensive check), and the qualities that Mantine has over the two of them is Haze, Water Absorb, and higher Special defense. Even 252 / 252 SpD Mantine is 3HKOed by Life Orb Pyroar's Hyper Voice after Stealth Rock meaning it can only switch in once, and without Defense investment it has a much harder time versus Ninetales because of Psyshock. Haze is nice and all, but realistically it only targets smash pass because all the other targets of the move you can just hit with one of their STAB moves. More specifically, using Haze requires not having Air Slash (Mantine really needs scald / Defog / toxic) which is part of your argument in favor of its viability, and would as such take away from the whole "water + flying is so good" ideology. However, Water Absorb is what mantine has best over the other two, being that Pelipper and Swanna have mediocre abilities. On the other hand, all water types bar Samurott typically run Toxic and Mantine is a very obvious switch into water types, although that plays into the prediction argument.
To be honest, neither of the two (mantine / pelipper) were that great of Typhlosion checks because as Defoggers their primary role is to remove hazards and being weak to Stealth Rock hinders this ability, and if your opponent kept up rocks they could only switch in once and be 2HKOed afterwards.
In regards to rankings, I feel that Mantine should drop to B- as it has lost its role in checking the S ranked threats. And idk why you said it shouldn't drop lower than B when it's currently in B rank.
Firstly, torterra and vibrava are completely different pokemon, vibrava is used as a bulky pivot with defog + u-turn, whereas torterra fires off wood hammers, eq's, stealth rocks etc etc. Secondly, claydol and vibrava are also very different for the fact that vibrava carries less weakness, has roost and can reliably defog 100% of the time (near enough anyway) rather than be spin blocked. They are also 2 very different pokemon, but you picked out 2 pokemon that resisted edgequake rather than looking at the lack of hazard removal in this tier and noticing that vibrava is the only mon to not be weak to rocks and have reliable recovery meaning that it can come in freely nearly every time and defog / gain momentum for your team. (I suggest you try using this pokemon before actually criticizing.)
Mantine has water absorb and that's why you'd want it over pelipper or swanna adaire. It hard walls nearly every samurott and can provide an extreme amount of team support just by having it on your team. It will make them hesitate on clicking scald on their water pokemon and that makes it a nuisance for most teams. And since mantine usually runs max defense since you don't need to invest in special def, you're extremely hard to kill on both sides making it a great fighting check, grass check, water check and fire check. Not just a fire check especially since magmortar runs t-bolt and there are 2 less fire types in this tier. And you can't find a time to defog? I've always consistently been able to find a time to defog with this mon when using it...
As for quag, A rank is a massive push tbh, its always been able to beat physical setup sweepers in this tier, what makes it any more qualified now than it has been before? It's hard to use it in any other playstyle that isn't very bulky balance or stall, it's vulnerable to status even if it has recover and 99% of the time it's setup fodder for the pixies that are uxie or mesprit. That's what has kept it out of A- rank imo, we'll see how the meta develops and whether balance / bulkier teams take over or not but for now, i don't feel it deserves it.
You're missing the point with Mantine and ignoring that it checks multiple things, doesn't counter them. While providing Defog and a scald absorb in one mon. I notice that you didn't calc the Fighting-type moves or Air Slash against most of those fighting mons. And Ferroseed has Protect and Leech Seed as well as an immunity to toxic, so it beats a lot of mons in the tier?
Maybe quagsire is qualified because of how big a threat those set up sweepers are? Klinklang is becoming one of the most threatining mons in the tier, unlike before when things like mega lix were here, so quagsire. Now mons like malamar, audino, and many others are becoming very hard to counter all at the same time and quagsire does them all, it's a very good balanced mon in the tier worthy of A rank like other defensive mons like ferroseed. Also about mantine...
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 144-170 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 316-372 (94.6 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Primeape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 170-202 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Mantine Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 116-138 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Hariyama Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 99-117 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's fine tho, after beating all these fighting types you can just roost and get your health back, OH WAIT YOU CAN'T, MANTINE LOSES OVER HALF IT'S HEALTH TO ALL OF THESE MAKING IT NEAR USELESS FOR THE REST OF THE MATCH
I know it's bulky, I really do, but the fact everything it 'walls' will where it down to a certain extent to where your best bet is protect stalling for leftovers. Rest is an option too but then your losing toxic and air slash. Even Ferroseed, the least offensive mon in the tier can beat mantine, pyroar which is like the only relavent fire type that's not magmorter, mantine can't switch in on hypervoice otherwise it dies to 3 hyper voices assuming it's physically defensive. There was a reason mantine was PU so long and now that reason has been banned.
Not only have i never seen sawk run stone edge this gen, but you've also gone and used a +1 gurdurr (where did it get the +1 from?)... Notice i also used the word "check", now i'm not exactly sure you know what this means so i took the liberty in finding the definition for you:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
And here's the article in which I quoted it from to help give you a better understanding of the word! http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters
Notice that also mantine can usually come in on a fighting attacks if they click CC or knock off? the 2 most spammable moves they have?
real calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 92-108 (27.5 - 32.3%)
252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 114-135 (34.1 - 40.4%)
252+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 90-107 (26.9 - 32%)
It is true it checks fighting types, it is not a counter nor a reliable switch in every time, that is why it is a check.
edit; I don't need to calc air slash damage vs these fighting types right?..
Ok i get it we disagree on a pokemon site, thats no reason to be facecious and kinda mean.
I agree that the calcs arent very good but I also agree that Mantine should probably move down to B-. Pelipper does the fighting type check better because of reliable recovery and better physical defense. The scald immunity is nice but I still think that the main 2 mons that made it better than pelipper are gone which makes pelipper a better option most of the time.
Yeah, those calcs weren't good and I honestly got counters and checks mixed, but yeah, I can't say more than I have, in my opinion mantine should go to B-, Can-Eh-Dian got my point across in one short message which I kinda failed to do :(.
Because Adaire deleted his post, I couldn't see the calcs, and I assumed he had shown calcs of, I don't know, Raichu Thunderbolts or something from your overblown reaction.
In reality, these calcs are mostly just damage from stuff you stated Mantine checks; they don't invalidate that claim, but they do provide a bit of perspective on it. That's something I, or any reasonable person for that matter, would think to post when discussing such a topic.
I don't subscribe to the philosophy of 'this is just a mons site whatever' (not disparaging people who do!!), but part of taking this seriously is discussing things seriously and not going apeshit for 0 reason.
teddeh said:
Not only have i never seen sawk run stone edge this gen,
1337 statistics (i.e. the top of the ladder) have seen it exactly *Stone Edge 29.698%* of the time. If 'ladder sux', fine, but a tiny-ass sample size like tournaments (where you don't even see if they have Stone Edge necessarily) isn't a great way to use anecdotal evidence anyhow.
teddeh said:
but you've also gone and used a +1 gurdurr (where did it get the +1 from?)... Notice i also used the word "check", now i'm not exactly sure you know what this means so i took the liberty in finding the definition for you:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
And here's the article in which I quoted it from to help give you a better understanding of the word! http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters
PSA:that article is trash and you should forget everything in it.
for example, he got that +1 by boosting as Mantine came in, and I bet he tanks an Air Slash. If mantine needs a totally free switch-in to check gurdurr, that makes it a shitty check, which is worth mentioning, so either way...yeah
teddeh said:
Notice that also mantine can usually come in on a fighting attacks if they click CC or knock off? the 2 most spammable moves they have?
real calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 92-108 (27.5 - 32.3%)
252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 114-135 (34.1 - 40.4%)
252+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 90-107 (26.9 - 32%)
It is true it checks fighting types, it is not a counter nor a reliable switch in every time, that is why it is a check.
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that if SR isn't up, mantine could easily have taken like 20% damage, which has about the same effect.
teddeh said:
edit; I don't need to calc air slash damage vs these fighting types right?..
i mean, having the facts at hand DOES make it easier to discuss the topic, but oh screw it here
4 SpA Mantine Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primeape: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%)
4 SpA Mantine Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 156-186 (41.7 - 49.7%)
4 SpA Mantine Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 170-204 (58.4 - 70.1%)
4 SpA Mantine Air Slash vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 258-306 (88.6 - 105.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
bottom line: mantine check fighting-types IF you predict correctly in some cases AND often is too weakened to do much of anything else in the match afterwards, making it kind of a subpar fighting check. which is a totally fair thing for adaire to say; it's fair for you to say 'well that's true but i disagree on the value of its checking ability', but not 'i just smashed my computer screen u dumbass'[/quote]
Jumpluff Unranked~~>B- or B
Stats don't look that good on paper, but it's very capable of sweeping. It finds easy set up opportunities on fighting types, grass types (ex. non hp rock lilligant, which wont be common at all since with the recent bans it wants to run hp ground to hit mag), and seismitoad. It's speed stat is very high allowing it to outspeed half the tier including typhlosion, scyther, rott, tauros, and more. Sleep Powder shuts down a potential check on jumpluff and allows it to set up atleast 1 swords dance which is really all it needs.
Some calc's
+2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 166-196 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 40-48 (13.7 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
+2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 168-198 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This shows that jumpluff is a very potent late game cleaner. Once the opposing team's steel types are gone and if you have hazards up i find it's quite often a win condition. Rhydon < Seed Bomb.
It also a multitude of support options like stun spore, momento, sunny day, and more. It's capable of sweeping and supporting the team which imo is deserving of a rank like b.
Jumpluff Unranked~~>B- or B
Stats don't look that good on paper, but it's very capable of sweeping. It finds easy set up opportunities on fighting types, grass types (ex. non hp rock lilligant, which wont be common at all since with the recent bans it wants to run hp ground to hit mag), and seismitoad. It's speed stat is very high allowing it to outspeed half the tier including typhlosion, scyther, rott, tauros, and more. Sleep Powder shuts down a potential check on jumpluff and allows it to set up atleast 1 swords dance which is really all it needs.
Some calc's
+2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 166-196 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 40-48 (13.7 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
+2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 168-198 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This shows that jumpluff is a very potent late game cleaner. Once the opposing team's steel types are gone and if you have hazards up i find it's quite often a win condition. Rhydon < Seed Bomb.
It also a multitude of support options like stun spore, momento, sunny day, and more. It's capable of sweeping and supporting the team which imo is deserving of a rank like b.
Jumpluff is in B rank.
Also some of your calcs don't seem very realistic or supportive to Jumpluffs ranking, like physically defensive Audino - mega Audino runs defense investment, not regular Audino. Also why would you calc non mega Audino's Dazzling Gleam?
Jumpluff Unranked~~>B- or B
Stats don't look that good on paper, but it's very capable of sweeping. It finds easy set up opportunities on fighting types, grass types (ex. non hp rock lilligant, which wont be common at all since with the recent bans it wants to run hp ground to hit mag), and seismitoad. It's speed stat is very high allowing it to outspeed half the tier including typhlosion, scyther, rott, tauros, and more. Sleep Powder shuts down a potential check on jumpluff and allows it to set up atleast 1 swords dance which is really all it needs.
...there are a few things wrong here. HP Rock hits Magmortar, just like HP Ground does... overlooking that Liligant often runs HP Fire as well, and that Liligant can use its STAB to hit Seismitoad... why would it need any Hidden Power for that?
Liligant needs to choose between HP Ground (leaves it walled by Grass- and Flying-types but it defeats Fire- and Steel-types), HP Rock (leaves it walled by Steel-types but hits Fire- and Flying-types, while Grass at least does not resist it) and HP Fire (hits Steels and Grasses, but now Fire-types cockblock it, but flying is neutral (but many prominent fliers in NU are either weak to Fire or do not resist Grass, or are frail)).
Just wanted to point out that the majority of relevant Flying-types in NU are neutral to Grass-type moves. So HP rock is mainly for Scyther, which HP Fire already hits.
I've been and am busy lately/today but I wanted to make a quick nom to spur some discussion.
--> S-rank
Samurott's insane wall breaking power is nearly unrivaled in the tier. Special Water-types are hard enough to switch into, but Samurott makes most Water-type resists a liability with its great coverage. The Swords Dance set is comparatively as potent, but as a sweeper instead of a wall breaker. With how viable each set is, it's hard to bring something in safely versus the otter because most of the checks/counters for the SD set get destroyed by the wall breaker set. I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet or not, but rott has been deserving of S-rank for a while if you ask me.
Montsegur HP Rock also hits Xatu which otherwise hard walls Lilli :)
Just wanted to point out that the majority of relevant Flying-types in NU are neutral to Grass-type moves. So HP rock is mainly for Scyther, which HP Fire already hits.
Did you really need to point something out that was stated two posts before it?
"...but many prominent fliers in NU are either weak to Fire or do not resist Grass, or are frail"
-
Samurott to S-rank... Samurott is versatile and powerful, having coverage around all would-be counters, and many counters only check one set of it making it always hard to guess. However, Rott does have problems if double-counters pop up - for example Leafeon/Leavanny/Liligant + Poliwrath. For the former group, Rott needs to whack them with Megahorn (SD set)/Ice Beam (special set), but for Wrath it needs to hit Grass Knot. An incorrect prediction, and Rott needs to switch out, not really helped by the fact it is not that fast.
Rott is a top-tier threat, should be accounted for in teambuilding, but it is checked by half the tier which blows. It is solid A+, easily, but I don't know if it should be S because in practice it is easy to switch into if you predict correctly and carry multiple hard checks to it, which many teams oddly do naturally. There's also the fact that it can't switch into any of the tier's remaining Fire-types because Hyper Voice and Thunderbolt hurt, though Aqua Jet obviously dents them (but also reveals you to be the SD set, which is far easier to counter than the LO mixed or special sets).
In short, I am neutral on Samurott going to S-rank.
I mean if you have a team that has multiple counters to a poke, of course that said poke is not going to do too well. I would also say it's not terribly easy to switch into, especially if you do not know the set (special or physical). I mean out of the s-b threats, i would say poliwrath, lanturn, ferroseed, prinplup and mantine can pretty reliably switch in, which is a fairly large list. But outside lanturn and ferroseed, the other three are not going to do much in return ( i suppose specs wrath but it will be worn down by 2 moves from special rott). I wouldnt say leafeon, leavanny or lilligant are counters though lol.
If you guess wrong on rott, like bring a physical wall on the special set and vice versa, it can put you far back. But yea its just a little too slow, as it can be easily revenged killed, and just not bulky enough (though it does take hits well). I'd prob let rott still stay in A+
--> S-rank
Samurott's insane wall breaking power is nearly unrivaled in the tier. Special Water-types are hard enough to switch into, but Samurott makes most Water-type resists a liability with its great coverage. The Swords Dance set is comparatively as potent, but as a sweeper instead of a wall breaker. With how viable each set is, it's hard to bring something in safely versus the otter because most of the checks/counters for the SD set get destroyed by the wall breaker set. I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet or not, but rott has been deserving of S-rank for a while if you ask me.
Agree with this. Samurott has so many awesome sets that make so many pokemon Liabilities. Seismitoad? GK. Grass Types? Ice Beam/Megahorn. Samurott's movepool, while limited, has everything it needs to be effective in NU and thus makes it worthy of S rank.
Samurott has neither the speed nor bulk to really stay around during a match. Both its special and physical sets are quite potent, and it is definitely a top threat, I just feel it's a bit too fragile/easy to revenge to be S-tier. Life orb damage wears it down during the match, and almost every team build has a few mons that can easily outspeed base 70 and threaten rott. The physical set is surprisingly strong and functions similarly to pre-sheer force gatr, however the lack of dragon dance and more diverse coverage moves holds it back from sweeping the same way that gatr could.
Also, can I be reminded why Vivilion is only A- while Lilligant is A+ (aside from the lilligant scarf set)? Sure lilligant has better natural power/bulk and a STAB that recovers hp, but Vivilion has a stronger set of dual STABs with wider coverage, more accurate sleep powders, and access to moves like energy ball and endeavor if it really has issues with certain mons (rhydon, lanturn, etc.) I suppose a rocks weakness could be seen an issue, but not so much for a mon that does not intend to do a lot of switching and instead just wants to put something to sleep then set up. Especially with typh and camel gone, Vivilion has gotten considerably harder to revenge kill/wall, and I would think Vivilion could perhaps use a rise to A tier.
Vivillon's biggest issue, SR weakness aside, is its horrible bulk and defensive typing. It usually has to put something to sleep in order to set up safely or risk major damage, while Lilligant can find opportunities to set up without using up its Sleep Powder, which in turn allows Lilligant to save it for something truly problematic and dangerous. Vivillon also has to worry about the presence of SR and its own health in order to aim for the sweep, but Lilligant does not have to worry about these largely due to its far better sustain via Giga Drain healing.
Lilligant can set up on Water-types and Ground-types (or even weaker special attackers in general), take their hits which can include damaging status such as burn or poison, and then plow straight through them while keeping itself healthy. Meanwhile, Vivillon takes like freaking half from CB Sawk's Close Combat (a 4x resisted attack), meaning there are extremely few Pokemon Vivillon can safely set up on, so Vivillon will be more hard-pressed to both come into battle and be healthy enough to set up and sweep. Lilligant's healing STAB also means it not only makes use of the Special Defense boost from Quiver Dance much more effectively, but also gives it better defensive utility when not going for the sweep, as well as exposing itself less to priority attacks.
Vivillon is still amazing since accurate Sleep Powder + great boosting move + Flying STAB is fantastic, but it requires a substantial amount of support more than Lilligant in order to sweep as well it does, or rather Vivillon does not boasts as many advantages as Lilligant to facilitate its consistent setup and sweeping prowess.
I mean if you have a team that has multiple counters to a poke, of course that said poke is not going to do too well. I would also say it's not terribly easy to switch into, especially if you do not know the set (special or physical). I mean out of the s-b threats, i would say poliwrath, lanturn, ferroseed, prinplup and mantine can pretty reliably switch in, which is a fairly large list. But outside lanturn and ferroseed, the other three are not going to do much in return ( i suppose specs wrath but it will be worn down by 2 moves from special rott). I wouldnt say leafeon, leavanny or lilligant are counters though lol.
If you guess wrong on rott, like bring a physical wall on the special set and vice versa, it can put you far back. But yea its just a little too slow, as it can be easily revenged killed, and just not bulky enough (though it does take hits well). I'd prob let rott still stay in A+
These Grasses are indeed too frail to take a Megahorn or Ice Beam (though I think Leavanny survives a LO Ice Beam, but it dies to its own LO recoil afterwards), but if you are forced to gamble between Taunt, Grass Knot, Ice Beam or Hydro Pump, and I have a Magmortar, and a Jumpluff to take the hit... well... which one do you hope to hit? If you fail to predict correctly, I will have the advantage and make use of it. If you predict correctly, you will have the advantage... but the chance is bigger that I will predict correctly assuming I have enough mons that resist at least two of the moves your Rott is likely to carry (Magmortar resists non-STAB moves from Rott, Grasses resists two moves from many Rott sets, Poliwrath does (or Water-types in general), etc... In other words - a team with a FWG-core already has two mons that force Samurott to gamble between any of its moves. As long as I outspeed and have a SE move to hit back, I can basically switch in with 66% success.
Magmortar isn't even close to a counter to Rott, and most players would not dare to switch it in, but combined with the presence of said Grass-type (forcing use of a different coverage move) and his ability to carry Thunderbolt, it makes things far more complicated especially on higher-level play where we predict the opponents predictions.
However, I don't judge Samurott's placement for this, because this goes for most mons within the tier. Within any tier or metagame, for that matter, except those that lift movepool restrictions (Hackmons & co, basically).
