np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

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Then, he talks about the arbitrary decisions in a battle, but the fact that freeing the sword allows us to have a less matchup based tier OUTWEIGHS the in round argument, as if showdown is shitty while team building, that is way worse than it being shitty while battling. My phone is dying so I'll end it here and edit soon
Many people have been using phrases like "pick your poison" or "lesser of two evils"

You can't argue one issue outweighs the other without some sort of measuring and comparing of the two. Otherwise anyone's preference to an overly centralized metagame or an over populated match up metagame is literally just their preference. The only way one can outweigh the other is simply by being the majority preference.

For my own preference and non-measured attempt to argue that centralization is worse, I would say that having the game be crap during team building automatically extends to it being crap while battling as well.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Many people have been using phrases like "pick your poison" or "lesser of two evils"

You can't argue one issue outweighs the other without some sort of measuring and comparing of the two. Otherwise anyone's preference to an overly centralized metagame or an over populated match up metagame is literally just their preference. The only way one can outweigh the other is simply by being the majority preference.

For my own preference and non-measured attempt to argue that centralization is worse, I would say that having the game be crap during team building automatically extends to it being crap while battling as well.
Edited my post to respond to this, but centralization means the game is stale since you face the same teams every time. Team building becomes easy, so in other words you're just agreeing with me.
A matchup meta might be fun to play some of the time, but teambuilding is a pain in the ass since you can't use aegi/ to check the threats in the metagame.

AM Edit: Removed last sentence, don't be a jerk.
 
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So after following the link to Aldaron's post that MikeDecIsHere helpfully posted, I decided to browse some of the other arguments in that same thread (no I didn't read the whole thread, I have a life tyvm). Surprisingly enough, I actually found one of my old posts there (I coulda sworn I was on a hiatus at the time), and wouldn't you know it, it was pro ban! The argument is actually pretty solid, and most of it still holds in the ORAS meta, so I figured it would be worthwhile to repost it.

So I've read the first 6 pages of the thread and after a lot of reflection, I have decided on a position. In my eyes, Aegislash has two problematic sets, and those are air-balloon crumbler and sub-toxic. Air balloon aegi is problematic because it gives aeigi a whopping four immunities (ground, normal, fighting, and poison), two of which are some of the game's best attack types. These immunities give aegi plenty of swap in opportunities, and he won't even pop the balloon. Once aegi is out safely, there is not a physical mon alive who can pop his balloon in a safe manner. The only non-contact phys moves I see in common use are EQ (immune due to balloon) and rock type attacks (do I need to even explain why this is a bad idea?). Therefore, the infamous 50/50 rears it's head. You can either try to hit aegi and hope he doesn't king shield, you can setup, or you can swap out, hoping that he does king shield. In each case, the advantage is quite badly in aegis favor regardless of outcome.

If you hit aegis as he king shields, you get your attack halved. At this point, you can either hit him again to pop the balloon, or give up and swap out. Regardless, something is taking a shadow ball to the face. In the former case, aegi takes a nominal amount of damage but loses his item, which is usually a bad trade for taking a shadow ball to the face (not to mention giving one of his allies a free swap in). In the latter case, aegi takes no damage, and escapes at full health with balloon intact. Obviously a bad trade. Now lets say you won the 50/50 and hit him as he shadow balls. Then you deal some damage to him, but if it wasn't SE, it's unlikely KO. He'll then shadow ball, which will almost certainly hit you much harder then you just hit him. You got the balloon and some damage, but now the phys attacker took just as much if not more. An even trade at best.

If you setup and he attacks, then you just took a very powerful attack for nothing. Not a great trade. But at least now you are in position to deal heavy damage back, unless he predicts that and King Shields... Basically setting up is trading your current 50/50 in hopes of getting a better 50/50. Probably the player's best move unless aegi can ohko. Obviously if you switch and he attacks, you will probably have a very unhappy swap in unless you are running mandi or chansey (chansey swaps into aegi quite nicely, though cannot do much more then setup rocks and pass wishes and other non-threatening chansey stuff).

Without air balloon, having your phys mon check aegi is as simple as running a very viable coverage moves. Arguments such as "pinsir needs to run EQ instead of CC just for aegi" hold no water for me. It's just that it is stupid difficult to pop the balloon without taking a shadow ball to the face, minimum.

As for sub-toxic, my argument is similar to air balloon crumbler. Basically, once subs are up (again, has a ton of immunities, this is not hard), it is darn near impossible to safely break. Defensive mons that would normally have a positive matchup get gliscor'd to death (toxic > alternate between subs and protect, dieing much slower then the enemy), while offensive mons will take a shadow ball to the face or just get kings shielded (then take a shadow ball to the face). Unlike gliscor, aegi has non-negligible offensive presence, even uninvested.

In both cases, physical mons of all stripes have a horridly lopsided matchup the vast majority of the time, even when they predict "correctly". The ability to provide support to the team as an incredibly powerful pivot while at the same time having the ability to almost negate an entire side of the attacking spectrum is simply too much in my opinion. If you are going to have positive matchups against the vast majority of offensive mons on one side of the attacking spectrum, then you cannot be providing other, very powerful and game winning support like that.

Because of these two sets, I am currently pro ban. Non-air balloon crumber sets are viable, but not broken imo because EQ. I have yet to see an SD or Atomonize set perform anything other then merely "decent" and are almost certainly not ban-worthy. If you see anything wrong with these arguments, feel free to say so. I have considerably less knowledge of aegi then say.... Scolipede, so I may be missing something important.

*grumble grumble*
I think that the above quote actually does a great job of explaining why King Shield is actually a really unhealthy move on Aegislash, as it allows him to have a positive matchup against virtually every physical mon on top of his other, non-KS related utilities. I personally can't find any obvious holes in this argument, which is causing me to lean towards keeping Aegislash uber (naturally, I am more easily swayed by my own arguments then I am of other's because I know what I'm looking for in an argument and post arguments that are convincing to myself. AKA, I'm biased towards myself). I don't think KS alone is enough to break a mon, because all KS does is gives the user a strong advantage vs physical mons and is similar in many ways to intimidate mons (for example, I doubt Lando-T would be able to check anywhere near the amount of stuff he does without intimidate). Therefore, if aegislash is broken (which is the conclusion I'm leaning towards atm), the proper action would be to reban aegis and not KS, because KS isn't the broken aspect, it's just a very important part of the whole package.

That being said, I am well aware that using my own arguments(even ones from 10 months ago) as my sole basis for deciding this is a terrible idea, so I will not be going fully pro-ban until I see other arguments for aegi still being broken.
 
After laddering for quite awhile and almost at the reqs 2371 lmao don't judge and seeing the aegislash metagame myself, I'm going to add in my two cents to the discussion of whether or not aegi is meta defining or deserves to be banned. I hope my introduction and first time post count isn't discouraging enough to find my opinion biased or the like, however this is my opinion, which I will be mainly leaning towards as an anti-ban perspective, and indeed I have lurked offline during the first aegi meta.

One issue I have with aegislash's presence in the metagame is that it is very overwhelming and difficult for teams to prepare for. Aegislash, unfortunately, has no counters, and turns reliable checks into liabilities with it's 50/50 chance of utilizing King's Shield. However, I cannot say I want him to be banned for these, undeniable truths. The issue in today's metagame is that threats are more versatile than anything we've ever experienced, any one pokemon can successful run a lure set or bypass it's commonly used counters with some kind of move, whether or not it is a viable choice for a moveslot in common practice.

One example I use of this, is heatran. Heatran has amazing typing, fire/steel gives it immunity to poison, and giving it resistances to several common typings that plague the metagame, particularly dragon, fairy, steel, flying, and grass. Heatran is highly versatile and meta defining, one can say it is uncounterable, literally, scarftran can catch anything off guard, air balloon tran can cripple garchomp leads with HP ice or status, tran can run a stalling set, a supporting pivot with stealth rock and being a reliable switch in while spreading status, and is also a blanket check to a large majority of the tier such as serperior, talonflame, volcarona, and pretty much every fairy not named diancie (which if it's scarftran, can flash cannon before diancie earth powers). Heatran offers plenty of utility in the metagame with minimal crippling flaws. However, in no way is heatran broken, or considered overcentralizing despite making pokemon such as volcarona completely useless when the pokemon is present in the team preview. Serp can run HP ground, but that's specifically and only for heatran, which opens up issues with other mons, zard X is forced to run EQ or else heatran counters, and natural gift talonflame is, yeah you get the point.

Personally, I think heatran's description matches aegislash, as heatran's only down flaw, is lack of being a mixed set, however I think that can be bypassed with the amount of power heatran's moves actually have and the crippling effect of them. Likewise to how heatran is a blanket check to serperior, volcarona, talonflame, venasaur, celebi, ferrothorn, skarmory, and if scarf; diancie, gardevoir, latios, and latias. Aegislash is a blanket check to several threats such as metagross, hawlucha, celebi, starmie, altaria, gardevoir, and jirachi. Just like latios has to give up HP fighting for bisharp/tyranitar for a coverage move to lure heatran, metagross has to give up hammer arm for EQ to hit aegislash on switch in. Altaria specifically needs EQ to hit heatran on switch or sweep, altaria needs fire blast to hit aegi's switch in hard (but it's good for ferro, skarm, and scizor too I guess). Heatran doesn't like focus blast from gardevoir so it can hardly switch in.. likewise aegislash equally doesn't like shadow balls. (What does garde run FB for other than heatran anyway? Aren't the pink blobs still toxic stallers?) Heatran doesn't want to eat earth power from diancie or celebi, neither does aegi. Latias is kinda screwed by both no matter what, but latias is screwed even by pawniard lmao, not everything that's checked/counter is going to reliably handle it's checks/counter easily. My point here is, with heatran's presence in the tier, we don't see a massive decline in viability here, other than maybe the necessity for more ground types. Aegislash, IME, has a similar placement in this metagame as heatran. Remove heatran, aegislash takes it's place as the tier's blanket check and pokemon can run aegi coverage over heatran coverage. Remove aegi, and pokemon don't have to run aegi specific coverage (shadow ball garde) instead of heatran specific coverage (focus blast garde). Combine the two, and a core of blanket checks is on your team and preparing for them becomes a nightmare. However I do not believe either pokemon is broken or meta defining enough, and heatran's long term presence in OU has proven that blanket checking the tier isn't exactly a good reasoning for aegi's ban alone. The synergy of two blanket checks in the tier may be a good reasoning, but you can't point fingers at this mon over that mon for the same cause and effect. I don't see volcarona or ferrothorn becoming unusable because heatran's presence is in the tier, and it has a fairly high usage statistic too.. saying hawlucha will become unusable (and others) just with aegislash existing seems over dramatic. Is air balloon heatran a metagame threat because it can come in on predicted EQs and hit the switch in hard? No, it's easier said than done as heatran is coming in to sponge hits and will most likely take chip damage to pop it, likewise for air balloon aegislash who still has to worry about dragon tail garchomp and u-turn/knock off from landorus-T. They both pass their one "check" hippowdon significantly better, but not enough to justify them unkillable. Even keldeo can't switch into heatran without taking a status move like toxic, similarly to how mandibuzz can't switch into aegi in fear of toxic and flash cannon. Moving on from comparing aegi to current metagame pokemon.~

50/50s are another argument I see from the pro-ban side, that is undeniably true. However, I find the 50/50 argument a little bit over exaggerating. I could've agreed with this before I laddered when I originally read some of the pro-ban arguments and prior to laddering.. but after laddering for sometime, I honestly had more 50/50 coinflips and yolos with predicting switches, double switching, Zard X or Y, and whether or not pursuiting or sucker punching was my best option with bisharp. Bring in my latias on the charizard thinking it's a Y due to lack of special attackers on their team, nope, it's an X that dragon danced and now the team is half dead before taking it out. Aegislash was the least of my problems because the event of it being a literal 50/50 wasn't that big of a deal since my knock off users either didn't care for KS (bisharp) or I was using something that didn't have a contact move but spammed EQ. One really has to stretch for a scenario that something is using a contact move to begin with in an EQ flooded metagame. Lopunny does get a little annoyed by KS, but even then there is work around sets with sub+encore, which are equally as annoying to predict when you're switching into something to sponge a predicted fake out or the like.

The fear of metagame threats becoming stronger due to aegislash isn't a good excuse to keep something out of OU either. We did ban Deoxys due to making terrifying sweepers like bisharp broken. However we narrowed down the issue wasn't bisharp, the one ripping the teams, it was deoxys's flawless hazard and utility support. With aegislash, I feel it's vice versa. I'm not really seeing the synergy with lopunny becoming a potent threat due to aegislash's influence on the team. Like honestly, neither pokemon have the right defensive synergy.. aegislash can take flying, psychic, fighting, and fairy hits, but we forgot these same pokemon utilizing these moves still can predict and hit with coverage. Before anybody says, "careful with the prediction argument", it goes both ways. The aegislash player has to be very cautious of his aegislash switch in too, there is a best and worst case scenario here, which equally negates itself out of the equation, we can only assume the worst case scenario, say, aegi doesn't come in when you use coverage. However, if we used worse case scenario as an argument, we could say parahax or confusion hax from tornadus-T and the like would be ban worthy solely on the "worst case scenario" argument for the opponent.. that they can pass their checks and counters while synergizing well with threats because the worse case scenario took place. Landorus-i does get better because of aegislash admittingly, however mamoswine is still a massive thorn to the core's side and landorus-i was always a potentially broken pokemon from the beginning. If an already broken Pokemon A makes Pokemon B broken because pokemon B supports pokemon A even better making it more broken, then it's not necessarily pokemon B that's broken, but pokemon A. Say aegislash is broken because it did it's job in removing a sweeper's threat, but we never banned gothitelle for removing pink blobs for terrifying special attackers to plow through either.

In conclusion, I really don't think aegislash is unhealthy, or broken at any chance. Overcentralization is easier said while looking at the viability rankings thread, than experienced and shown in practice. Rarely is aegislash the game wincon when there are still other options for this and that check available in the team slot besides him. However, I do agree aegislash makes team matchup still an issue with "just being another threat to prepare for," but if any pokemon we picked out of viability thread was removed from OU, then retested, I'm sure the same argument would apply as "just another threat to prepare for" and therefore I find aegislash as a contributor to not be an influential pokemon to team matchup, but equally every pokemon with aegislash being the lesser evil, and just another threat. I personally will be voting unban under the assumption and perspective that aegislash is more broken on paper than in practice, and I do not find him influencing enough to justify a ban over many other pokemon in OU with similar roles and capabilities. However, I will not deny that everything the pro-ban side said is perfectly logical and fine, just not accurate from what I've seen on the ladder myself, or from my point of view from the pokemon itself, as an aegislash user, and opponent.
 
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ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
For a pokemon that counters so many to have so few counters (IMO) is simply absurd.
The amount of offensive pokemon that Aegislash can switch into has already been gone over in detail, so I won’t discuss that. But I will show how
standard Aegislash sets with life orb can get through all its major counters without too much effort.

SpD Hippo is probably the most commonly discussed counter, but it can be overwhelmed with prior damage.
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 185-218 (44 - 51.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
So basically Hippo has to stay at full health to counter this thing. Also, if it gets hit by a special defense drop by shadow ball, it loses, and 20% chance to lower special defense is not that low at all. This is not even considering that in order for Hippo to counter it constantly has to spam slack off instead of revenge-killing with earthquake so it doesn’t end up useless the whole match.

Mandibuzz counters at full health, although it gets beaten by life orb flash cannon after stealth rocks.

Specially defensive Vaporeon avoids the 2HKO by shadow ball no matter how you look at it, but Vaporeon isn’t all that viable in OU. And of course shadow ball SpD drop will force it out and make it useless the rest of the match- you may say this is not a good argument but 20% is pretty huge.

Specially defensive Gliscor can switch in outspeed, and KO with earthquake, although it takes 55%+ damage which is a lot, applying immediate pressure for Gliscor to roost.

Someone else brought up AV Meloetta, and I guess that counters the standard set. However, Meloetta isn’t really that good as it faces competition from other psychics like Lati twins, Celebi, Mew, Mega Gardevoir, Alakazam, so that brings up the issue of over-centralization. Also, it takes a shitton from iron head on the swords dance set.

Unless I am forgetting something important, every other decently viable pokemon can be beaten by a combination of those moves, Sacred Sword, or Iron Head.

So basically you have here a pokemon that has the same level of defensive utility as Heatran, yet is even more uncounterable than Rampardos. That is not healthy at all.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
One example I use of this, is heatran. Heatran has amazing typing, fire/steel gives it immunity to poison, and giving it resistances to several common typings that plague the metagame, particularly dragon, fairy, steel, flying, and grass. Heatran is highly versatile and meta defining, one can say it is uncounterable, literally, scarftran can catch anything off guard, air balloon tran can cripple garchomp leads with HP ice or status, tran can run a stalling set, a supporting pivot with stealth rock and being a reliable switch in while spreading status, and is also a blanket check to a large majority of the tier such as serperior, talonflame, volcarona, and pretty much every fairy not named diancie (which if it's scarftran, can flash cannon before diancie earth powers). Heatran offers plenty of utility in the metagame with minimal crippling flaws. However, in no way is heatran broken, or considered overcentralizing despite making pokemon such as volcarona completely useless when the pokemon is present in the team preview. Serp can run HP ground, but that's specifically and only for heatran, which opens up issues with other mons, zard X is forced to run EQ or else heatran counters, and natural gift talonflame is, yeah you get the point.
This isn't true. Every water type except non-AV Azumarill can switch in without too much trouble.

I agree with much of your post though
 
This isn't true. Every water type except non-AV Azumarill can switch in without too much trouble.

I agree with much of your post though
True! However the issue lies in if every water type can switch into all of heatran's sets. Swampert still gets weared down by toxic, which similarly hippowdon is bypassed as a counter with aegislash. Most water types cannot manage to OHKO and a selected few 2HKO specially defensive heatran before the damage is done with toxic+protect stalling. See keldeo for instance. Switch out, rinse and repeat. Similarly to aegislash coming in to scare something out, toxic the incoming switch, stall with KS, then switch out and rinse and repeat.

Crocune, alomomola and vaporeon are reliable answers with access to recovery and status heal however, but their viability in OU as "heatran answers" aren't exactly common enough to see in practice. Perhaps my description of heatran being "uncounterable" was indeed overselling his positive points and understating his weak points.


EDIT: Also somebody told me about a powerherb solar beam set to lure bulky waters? I'm not sure how viable that is to include but I'll give it a mention.
 
Aegislash is a metagame changing pokemon. Before it was suspected the tier was very scary. So many different threats that can tear apart teams. With Aegislash, games calm down and all those big threats have a new defensive, offensive check/counter. Aegislash makes the entire marshals feel completely different. Whether the old metagame is better or not is the question.
 
True! However the issue lies in if every water type can switch into all of heatran's sets. Swampert still gets weared down by toxic, which similarly hippowdon is bypassed as a counter with aegislash. Most water types cannot manage to OHKO and a selected few 2HKO specially defensive heatran before the damage is done with toxic+protect stalling. See keldeo for instance. Switch out, rinse and repeat. Similarly to aegislash coming in to scare something out, toxic the incoming switch, stall with KS, then switch out and rinse and repeat.

Crocune, alomomola and vaporeon are reliable answers with access to recovery and status heal however, but their viability in OU as "heatran answers" aren't exactly common enough to see in practice. Perhaps my description of heatran being "uncounterable" was indeed overselling his positive points and understating his weak points.


EDIT: Also somebody told me about a powerherb solar beam set to lure bulky waters? I'm not sure how viable that is to include but I'll give it a mention.
Great posts, I strongly agree with most of your comparisons with heatran. However, you are still overstating its abilities. The fighting immunity is huge for Aegislash, as is ghost typing. The only other mainstream ghost types in the Tier are Mega Sableye, and Gengar. Gengar is flat-out weak, and Mega Sableye's shakiness as a counter, or even as a check has been mentioned earlier in the thread. As far as dark types go, none of them can actually attack Aegi for fear of KS, other than the Dark Pulse spammers, which are super uncommon. Also, you mention a lot of Heatran sets which make it uncounterable as a whole, while Aegi only has to run 3-4 sets to make itself uncounterable. Aegi also checks attackers that Heatran doesn't like, like keldeo ofc. Heatran can't really do the same for Aegi barring Volcarona (actually, Roost + QD Volc shits on Heatran if no Ancientpower).

I do appreciate the similarities you pointed out for the both of them though. Heatran is still a viable special wall even though it lacks recovery, just like Aegi, as well as the other similarities you mentioned. The only part where I disagree with you is when you discuss how Heatran beats waters.
 
Gonna be totally honest and say that I stopped reading your post a couple sentences in, because it was going nowhere soon. Also, please forgive the personal attack, you weren't even around for the original test lol

Instead, let me reiterate what you missed out on.

1. The most important part of this suspect test is the fact that Aegislash is already banned. It was deemed to be a poor fit for the metagame. Nobody gives a shit if you thought otherwise, because the qualified players came to a general consensus, and it was banned. This was a close vote, so there is a bit more lee-way in that regard, but the premise still stands. So, it is up to the anti-ban side to prove that it isn't broken. The pro-ban side did their job a year ago. End of story.

Oops, turns out that ^ was p much the only thing that I said in the first place aside from the sidenote that Aegislash is even better now than before.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ost-of-perdition.3511596/page-21#post-5591004

That post you wanted ^. It's especially noteworthy tht it deals with Aegislash as a pokemon and doesn't even touch on the centralization side of things.

And lol @ talk of nitpicking rayquaza example. It's not nitpicking if the argument is founded on an example, and the only example given was the shittiest one to ever grace the smogon forums (ie. There was NO example cuz there is no actual example because bad argument).



I don't think you understand; it WAS proven guilty lol.

No point in continuing the argument. Not much more to say.
Basing part of your opinion on the results of the previous suspect is, to say the least, dumb as hell. As Im sure you remember, the votes were so close that it literally took one vote to ban Aegi. The funniest part of this was that the final votes were slightly influenced by various factors so we dont even know if "the general consensus" was to actually ban Aegi at all. The other issue I have is that youre saying the pro-ban side did their job in the previous test and are thus entitled to kick back and relax. Like you said, that was a previous test in an entirely different tier, many more new megas than the ones youre making out in other posts beat Aegislash and Im almost thankful that at least a few of the major offenders of this way too, for lack of a better word, "diverse" (Note by diverse I mean there are far to many common threats for one team to deal with) tier have been nerfed enough to decrease the matchup issue this tier has. Aegislash is hardly any better now than it was before and in both mine and other players experiences, it doesnt warp the tier to the point where its use aegi or lose, which is especially surprising considering this is a suspect test after all. In fact, Id argue that in an even match, Aegislash will often be limited to maybe 1 kill. If the opponent packs a reliable check which there is no denying they should, this can be reduced to the point where Aegislash can be dead weight. Its hardly this omnipotent being you and many others are making out and while its easily a top mon, its nothing thats not able to be handled by the majority of half decent teams on the ladder.
 
Great posts, I strongly agree with most of your comparisons with heatran. However, you are still overstating its abilities. The fighting immunity is huge for Aegislash, as is ghost typing. The only other mainstream ghost types in the Tier are Mega Sableye, and Gengar. Gengar is flat-out weak, and Mega Sableye's shakiness as a counter, or even as a check has been mentioned earlier in the thread. As far as dark types go, none of them can actually attack Aegi for fear of KS, other than the Dark Pulse spammers, which are super uncommon. Also, you mention a lot of Heatran sets which make it uncounterable as a whole, while Aegi only has to run 3-4 sets to make itself uncounterable. Aegi also checks attackers that Heatran doesn't like, like keldeo ofc. Heatran can't really do the same for Aegi barring Volcarona (actually, Roost + QD Volc shits on Heatran if no Ancientpower).

I do appreciate the similarities you pointed out for the both of them though. Heatran is still a viable special wall even though it lacks recovery, just like Aegi, as well as the other similarities you mentioned. The only part where I disagree with you is when you discuss how Heatran beats waters.
Aegislash blanket checks fighting types.
Heatran blanket checks fire types.

It's true they are definitely not the same pokemon, and have split weaknesses. With say, heatran being able to switch into zard and pressure it, while aegislash can switch into gallade and pressure that. Likewise the risk for focus blast/EQ vs. risk of knock off make them equally hard to switch into these pokemon they check.

The only thing I have to disagree on is volcarona being able to pass heatran without lure HP ground. Toxic and roar can also shutdown volcarona quite easily. If heatran lacks toxic, roar, ancientpower, and stone edge, then volcarona can become a huge threat, however this is the assumption you know that heatran's entire set before you setup. Likewise if aegislash lacks the coverage he needs and is on the rare chance of not running a set capable of bypassing mandibuzz, then mandibuzz is capable of bypassing aegislash.

The aegislash sets I'm aware of is crumbler, sub-toxic, pursuit, and a few other sets with random coverage moves like head smash or an item switch. If he runs full physical, he's week to physical walls like skarmory and garchomp. If he's special, he's weak to special walls. If he's mixed, he's pressured for coverage over pursuit, sacred sword, flash cannon, shadow ball, shadow sneak, king's shield, sub, and HP ice. 4 sets, 3 of which can be countered when scouted out, and the fourth being something that wants to hit the entire tier but can't in 4 move slots. (not implying FMS) The issue is scouting out this set, and you're only going to be able to when you make your move and switch in your check or decide to stay in, it may hurt or it may not. Likewise, you're never going to know if your check to heatran will be switching into a powerherb solarbeam, toxic, HP ice, lava plume (ignoring burnhax), or something else that one can't see in advance. Actually, this can apply to anything, bring in heatran on latios only to scout and see it has EQ, or bisharp, HP fighting.

Gengar's immunity to ground, fighting, normal, and resist to poison, bug, fairy, and grass with access to an equally crippling movepool in sub+shadow ball+will-o-wisp make it surprisingly good and effective. However, I would never say similarities with aegislash and sableye/gengar as there's not too many. Predictability of will-o, sub, shadow ball, sludge wave, focus blast, and although gimmicky and for the most part unreliable/uncommon, disable and confuse ray can make gengar equally threatening to switch into.

Also I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to make heatran out as broken, over centralizing, or a problem in OU at all. I'm only using it for comparison's sake incase anybody is getting the vibe that I'm ranting about heatran or something.
 
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I'll toss in my two cents about Aegislash. I'm talking about this in terms of 'pressure'. Simply put, Defensive pressure is the ability to take hits (and as a result force switches), and Offensive pressure is the ability to deal damage (and as a result discourage switches).

Defensively, Aegislsh exerts a lot of pressure in way of checking/countering a lot of the tier, KS Shenanigans, and durability. In this regard, Aegislash is probably most comparable to Heatran (they deal with similar threats, similar methods of recovery) if not better due checking more things+SR resist+KS+Spinblocking+Power. Heatran does have some leverage on Aegislash (SR+Roar+Taunt), but for argument's sake we'll say that Aegislash's benefits match those. So, since (at least here) Heatran's defensive set is ranked A+, I'd say Aegislash has A+ defensive qualities since, even without special defense investment, Aegislash only takes ~5% more from LO Latios's Draco meteor (only one threat but you get the idea, in Shield form unless your move invested SE STAB it isn't going to OHKO Aegislash and even then it might miss that benchmark).

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 100-118 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 90.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran isn't just A+ for its bulk. Flash Fire is a big advantage, as it allows Heatran to switch into any fire move (including Will-O-Wisp) and get an immediate boost. Heatran also has access to Lava Plume, which gives it the ability to do decent damage while spreading burns. It can also use Stealth Rock (which you acknowledged), removing the need to carry some other Stealth Rock user on the team. Heatran also retains its bulk after attacking (Aegislash has to use King's Shield, which can be setup fodder, especially on a defensive set.) Finally, Heatran can use Roar (which you also acknowledged) to phaze setup sweepers. Heatran is A+ because it can simultaneously tank attacks and provide a lot of team support. Defensive Aegislash is walled very easily, and doesn't support the team at all (aside from being able to take hits from some attackers).

Offensively (capacity to deal damage), Aegislash also applies a lot of pressure. To keep this short, if something can switch in on a particular Aegislash set (a handfull of pokemon for each set), there's probably another viable set that it won't like switching in on (Mandibuzz and SubToxic) or a coverage move it can't afford to come in on (Bisharp and Sacred Sword), which limits the number of things that can consistently deal with an Aegislash. With that in mind, I don't really know what to compare Aegislash to. Its very versatile and also very powerful, I'd put it at A- in offense because its speed can be somewhat of a letdown to capitalize on 150/150 offenses+coverage without having to go back into shield mode.
I've seen a few posts mentioning SubToxic Aegislash against Mandibuzz, and I thought I'd address it.

Does anyone have any replays where SubToxic Aegislash is actually useful? I've seen many Aegislashes in battle, and I've never once seen a SubToxic set. In fact, the only time I hear about SubToxic Aegislash is when people are arguing that Mandibuzz isn't a "true counter". Based on theorymon, it seems like a SubToxic set would be setup fodder for a whole bunch of things (Mega Scizor, SubDD Gyarados, etc.)


The way I look at this, Aegislash applies too much immediate pressure on both ends of the spectrum (~A+ defense and ~A- offense) on the opposing team to be healthy for the tier. Most things that are offensive juggernauts aren't the most durable (Keldeo), whereas a lot of defensive pokemon have exploitable offensive capabilities (Ferrothorn) or just take time to get going (CM Clefable). However Aegislash is capable of coming in on a lot of threats (defensive pressure) and forcing them out because they either cannot deal enough damage to justify staying in (defensive pressure) or are man-handled by one of Aegislash's moves (offensive pressure), all the while discouraging switch ins because of good coverage options+powerful STAB (offensive pressure). I cannot think of another OU legal pokemon who can do that as consistently as Aegislash can, while also having as low a consequence to use as Aegislash.
You say that Aegislash is unique in that it can apply both "offensive pressure" and "defensive pressure". First, I'd like to note that it has a lot of trouble doing both at once -- the Life Orb set wears itself down very quickly, while the Swords Dance set has very limited coverage. Moreover, the "offensive pressure" that you mention isn't as powerful as many other OU threats, and every offensive Aegislash has a set of a few Pokemon that pretty much wall it completely. (It's also fairly easy to revenge-kill -- a neutral Shadow Sneak doesn't do that much damage even with Life Orb.)

From how I'm reading it, it seems like this isn't so much a test of whether or not Aegislash is broken or not, but rather a test to see if Aegislash will make the metagame more bearable by dealing with the threats currently dominating the metagame (which really throws a wrench in the first part of this post). So, if Aegislash isn't going to help make these threats more manageable (it checks a lot of them but can work to make some of them more difficult to manage) then, even if Aegislash isn't broken, I don't think it should be reintroduced to the metagame just yet. Feel free to inform me if I'm wrong about this (please do) because that would help.
To address the first part, I still assert that Aegislash isn't broken, so there's that. Yes, it forms a good core with some offensive threats (Lopunny in particular), but its effect isn't nearly as large as people make it seem. In my opinion, there isn't any threat that is fine without Aegislash, but becomes broken when Aegislash is introduced. (And if there is such a threat, it should be banned and not Aegislash.)

Aegislash will probably be a top-tier pokemon if it gets reintroduced, but it's not as potent as people think.
 
After grabbing 25 games on the ladder, mostly with decent success, I think that Aegislash is definitely a fun mon to use, and certainly not as centralizing as it was in XY. Though I'm not sure it's the right answer to the threats that currently face OU, mainly Landorus-I. I have found KS to be not a huge factor when facing it, though I think I've had a Bisharp on nearly every team. The biggest reason I don't like it in the meta is it restricts the viability for lots of mons, as well as the more reliable checks to mons like Keldeo (Slowbro, Lati@s, Clefable etc.) This makes the XY style of team w/ Deo-Sharp Zard Y with Aegislash really strong. Haven't really formulated a final opinion yet tho.
 
Im almost thankful that at least a few of the major offenders of this way too, for lack of a better word, "diverse" (Note by diverse I mean there are far to many common threats for one team to deal with) tier have been nerfed enough to decrease the matchup issue this tier has.
This is actually one point that needs to be better addressed by anti-ban because that diversity is in general what the tier aims to preserve, not stifle. Which is what the post quoted highlighted, the role compressions of Aegis was to such a degree that it actually more constraining down the line since it was very well compressed (roughly for one role it could perform you'd need 2 other mons to fill the void).

I believe at least from my view and the reactions of the players after the ban did appreciate as we saw more diversity flourish in a good way and breathe in more life, at the very least the metagame that would develop after is well praised. This is where burden of proof lies because this actually is rather different from the time honored characteristics or traditional view espoused by members in the unbanning in so much that we're not looking at whether it is a threat to offense/defense/support but rather how that role compression affects team building to the degree that it is too effective in removing opportunity costs so that we overlook options and become myopic.

This is what needs to be argued better why is diversity necessarily a bad thing? Is it actually diversity the cause of this issue in the team match ups? Or are there mons which simply put are at an overwhelming advantage with regard to these match ups?

Many people keep complaining about team match ups but as repeatedly stated that is an inherent part of the metagame. The pro-ban doesn't need to argue about the merits of diversity because right now that is taken as a positive. What needs to be considered better is why this diversity is suddenly viewed as being negative? Rather than greasing the wheels our attempt to introduce diversity is seen instead as being sand in the wheels. But again is that necessarily a fault of diversity or something else altogether. This I feel is what needs to be addressed.

At least from my view yes there is a match up going on but that is inherent, however, I do question whether these match ups are as overwhelming as some people state in these threads - as some would exaggerate as an auto-lose. At least personally speaking I've not come across such a game myself, whereas other people are so vocal about it, so I am genuinely wondering where this notion comes from because again team match up is inherent part of the game.

On the other hand, I have encountered games where there are specific pokemon that had too much an overwhelming advantage, hence why I agreed with a poster that more bans would be beneficial.

Where did diversity and team match ups occur as being negatively related as argued here, hence the need for a new blanket check to better compress roles and pull back diversity.

Again is this even necessarily a result of diversity or clear cut offenders? This needs to be better differentiated.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-227269916

This may not be the highest level of play, but I think this replay shows that Aegislash isn't too good. (obviously one replay isn't enough, but you know what I'm getting at :P)
The Lopunny and even the Zapdos were giving me much more pressure than the Aegislash ever did. Turn 21 is the big part in my opinion, Keldeo uses Sub knowing that it is faster than Aegislash, forcing it to either go to Blade form and getting rid of the sub, or stay in Shield form letting me keep my sub and potentially get CM's up. This time it attacked me, so I lost my sub, but it's now got 50/50 defenses, so a Scald will KO it with a little bit of prior damage.
But what if I went for Sub again? My opponent would be forced to stay in the Blade mode (potemtially getting KO'd if I had went for an attack) to get rid of it or switch out to another pokemon, giving me a free sub and therefore CM's to potentially win the game.

If you know how to play around Aegislash, you will not have too many problems. It is going to be a big threat, but then so is Megagross and that's still OU somehow.
 
So after following the link to Aldaron's post that MikeDecIsHere helpfully posted, I decided to browse some of the other arguments in that same thread (no I didn't read the whole thread, I have a life tyvm). Surprisingly enough, I actually found one of my old posts there (I coulda sworn I was on a hiatus at the time), and wouldn't you know it, it was pro ban! The argument is actually pretty solid, and most of it still holds in the ORAS meta, so I figured it would be worthwhile to repost it.



I think that the above quote actually does a great job of explaining why King Shield is actually a really unhealthy move on Aegislash, as it allows him to have a positive matchup against virtually every physical mon on top of his other, non-KS related utilities. I personally can't find any obvious holes in this argument, which is causing me to lean towards keeping Aegislash uber (naturally, I am more easily swayed by my own arguments then I am of other's because I know what I'm looking for in an argument and post arguments that are convincing to myself. AKA, I'm biased towards myself). I don't think KS alone is enough to break a mon, because all KS does is gives the user a strong advantage vs physical mons and is similar in many ways to intimidate mons (for example, I doubt Lando-T would be able to check anywhere near the amount of stuff he does without intimidate). Therefore, if aegislash is broken (which is the conclusion I'm leaning towards atm), the proper action would be to reban aegis and not KS, because KS isn't the broken aspect, it's just a very important part of the whole package.

That being said, I am well aware that using my own arguments(even ones from 10 months ago) as my sole basis for deciding this is a terrible idea, so I will not be going fully pro-ban until I see other arguments for aegi still being broken.
And here is my answer to your post :D
 
This is actually one point that needs to be better addressed by anti-ban because that diversity is in general what the tier aims to preserve, not stifle. Which is what the post quoted highlighted, the role compressions of Aegis was to such a degree that it actually more constraining down the line since it was very well compressed (roughly for one role it could perform you'd need 2 other mons to fill the void).

I believe at least from my view and the reactions of the players after the ban did appreciate as we saw more diversity flourish in a good way and breathe in more life, at the very least the metagame that would develop after is well praised. This is where burden of proof lies because this actually is rather different from the time honored characteristics or traditional view espoused by members in the unbanning in so much that we're not looking at whether it is a threat to offense/defense/support but rather how that role compression affects team building to the degree that it is too effective in removing opportunity costs so that we overlook options and become myopic.

This is what needs to be argued better why is diversity necessarily a bad thing? Is it actually diversity the cause of this issue in the team match ups? Or are there mons which simply put are at an overwhelming advantage with regard to these match ups?

Many people keep complaining about team match ups but as repeatedly stated that is an inherent part of the metagame. The pro-ban doesn't need to argue about the merits of diversity because right now that is taken as a positive. What needs to be considered better is why this diversity is suddenly viewed as being negative? Rather than greasing the wheels our attempt to introduce diversity is seen instead as being sand in the wheels. But again is that necessarily a fault of diversity or something else altogether. This I feel is what needs to be addressed.

At least from my view yes there is a match up going on but that is inherent, however, I do question whether these match ups are as overwhelming as some people state in these threads - as some would exaggerate as an auto-lose. At least personally speaking I've not come across such a game myself, whereas other people are so vocal about it, so I am genuinely wondering where this notion comes from because again team match up is inherent part of the game.

On the other hand, I have encountered games where there are specific pokemon that had too much an overwhelming advantage, hence why I agreed with a poster that more bans would be beneficial.

Where did diversity and team match ups occur as being negatively related as argued here, hence the need for a new blanket check to better compress roles and pull back diversity.

Again is this even necessarily a result of diversity or clear cut offenders? This needs to be better differentiated.
Theres a very big difference between the healthy diversity which came about after Aegislashs ban during XY and the shitstorm of overly powerful threats with very different counters that is current ORAS. After Aegislashs original ban, mons like Gardevior, Heracross and Medicham, as well as a whole host of psychics became more viable. While there were more viable mons in the tier, all of them were manageable and had similar ways of being dealt with. This was healthy and created a more enjoyable tier.

ORAS is a different story entirely. While late XY was enjoyable and fresh with so many choices, ORAS took it too far. Notice that in post Aegi XY you had the liberty of choosing from a wide range of lesser used mons without being weak to top threats and this encouraged many to get creative and teams were less standard. In ORAS, there are so many very powerful threats who all have vastly different counters to the point where you are forced to run specific mons in order to actually win. Thats not to say creativity isnt allowed, its just that its hard to be creative when you have to run specific counters which cant all fit on one team. This ends up resulting in the matchup based tier we see now.

A little diversity is healthy, a lot creates matchup issues. I still feel that Aegi solves that problem without absolutely destroying the tier.
 
As a side note, 232 special attack is because you need the rest in defense to live two LO draco meteors from Latios from full and max speed is 100% necessary, plus it isn't that much weaker


King's shield is a prediction won by the most skilled player? Other mons cause 50/50s? Uh, lemme address these. First of all, you can't outplay a 50/50. You can't predict which face a coin will land on (even though one side is heavier so that's not exactly a 50/50, you get my point. But somebody was gonna nitpick it). Kings shield doesn't promote skill, it's simply a way to help people bullshit their way out of situations that they shouldn't normally win. It isn't broken all on its own, it's just a bullshit move to help add to Aegislash's bannable-ness. Would we enjoy, idk, Keldeo with a random chance to suddenly resist Talonflame's brave bird, even if it was only a 30% chance? Sure, you can predict kings shield, but prediction works both ways, so this is neither an argument for or against Aegislash.

Secondly, a lot of people have brought up how other mons cause 50/50s with sucker punch and pursuit. This is true, but we aren't suspecting other mons. We're suspecting Aegislash, and 50/50 are adding onto his brokenness. Yes Bisharp, Tyranitar can cause them, but nobody is calling them broken. They just help push Aegislash over the edge. Besides Aegislash causes a 50/50 every turn that it's in vs a contact attacker, which, combined with how common Aegislash would be, would be increasing a totally uncompetitive part of the game, far more than Bisharp creates. Of course this won't apply to people who think they can outplay the 50/50, so if you believe that then please post a few replays where you predict every sucker punch vs knock off/iron head (ideally you don't kill the Bisharp before all PP is out so we can see how amazing you are). No, Aegislash doesn't create one every turn, but he still generates a chance for himself to bullshit his way out of a normally unwinnable situation for any other mon.

Controversy go!
once you put a solid argument to back up your claims, i will extend this, with other 50/50s: in addition to the obvious tyranitar scarf crunch+pursuit against something slower or bisharp's (or anyone's) sucker punch+pursuit combo is a 50/50 for any dark-weak mon unlucky enough to be on the field, there are others.

Consider this: in-KO-range-of-X-move (insert pokemon with priority move and either reliable recovery or a strong stab move, let's say a weakened to about 35% health scizor) in the front of a mon with that X move and more speed but who gets eliminated by the priority move (let's say mamoswine with EQ). (insert boosting sweeper here in late game (charizardX for example)) vs a mon who can both get KOed by his attacks and KO it(let's say excadrill). if that are not 50/50s, i do not know what they are. adn it IS possible to win the "50/50" the majority of the time by simply considering what is more dangerous to you.

In aegislash's case, let the booster a chance to boost and sweep or give it a chance to kill you is the guess, if the aegi team still has a counter/check for the booster, it will likely use KS, if it has lost it already, it will NEVER let it boost for free.

second, you even readed my post? IT IS NEVER A COINFLIP. The aegi player, if he is worth his salt, will NOT use randomly KS, nor it will use it repeteadly (in which case then IS a 50/50 due to the repeated use=exponential accuracy drop of any protect clones) unless he has no other option
 
In ORAS, there are so many very powerful threats who all have vastly different counters to the point where you are forced to run specific mons in order to actually win. Thats not to say creativity isnt allowed, its just that its hard to be creative when you have to run specific counters which cant all fit on one team.
That is just it... do we necessarily run specific counters for all these threats or can many of them be played around to a healthy enough degree, at least I feel that way with MAlt/MLop/MDiancie (since these are the only new threats so to speak). I say this because as we've seen with each generation there are just an increasing number of mons we cannot outright counter, by merit of diversity in sets or coverage.

This is where I feel the match up is exaggerated, we may not be able to cover all threats but certainly there is a degree enough of freedom to actually play around them (that is why they remained in the first place).

Creativity is a bit hard to gauge when I see a bunch of it in the tournaments, just look at the SPL, and the viability rankings. Even then the problem isn't creativity but whether you can build good teams, which are two different thing, that aren't prone to an overwhelming degree of disadvantage simply by merit of its nature. I can't exactly say it is entirely team match up when my issue stems from very specific and consistent threats.

Which is where I question another aspect is necessarily dealing with said threat compromising the nature of your team? This is where I see creativity as being relevant in so much that are the available tools to deal with threats in line with the sort of team you are building? I think back on the previous gen where many advocated for a ban on Reiunculus for necessitating some offense to stall teams - though as we've seen you can still remain stall with offensive pressure. Another example would be stall teams adopting the use of Bulky Mega Scizor to deal with their weakness to MGarde.

That also brings the second issue to pass

A little diversity is healthy, a lot creates matchup issues. I still feel that Aegi solves that problem without absolutely destroying the tier.
Does he actually introduce healthy diversity? Looking at the released suspect tours information for one I'm not sure I consider such a high usage necessarily diversifying the tier. Also just looking at the suspect tours replays and stats and personally at least the statistics and teams there feel more like a step back in that regard, as we see teams clearly derived from the Aegis meta that as we can see can be salvaged and put to work. Since there is notable collateral damage in the mons that rose to fill in his gaps, and as noted we just made already popular mons even more popular since their actual counters lessened in usage by collateral.

Moreover, Aegis is generally still considered a check for most part with many of the new megas, not a counter, meaning if they are threatening to a play style they remain threatening because a check requires proper playing around.

Even then it doesn't solve the issue of a certain playstyle being overwhelmed by very specific mons since you are leaving them with either only one option to plug up the problem or leaving it up to luck that certain threats decreased in usage. Neither of those I feel actually address the problem, as I feel that is more banking on luck that people aren't as likely to use X mon since Aegis became popular. If anything that still leaves you match up based, since said threat still exists and in the off chance you encounter it and you're not carrying Aegis well... or a proper check... I find that more being complacent than actually improving.
 
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Reymedy

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Edit by haunter: removed the off-topic/ranting part.

Now, I'm gonna explain my vision over what's going on in this tier, even if I already explained it a bit as I voted last suspect.
No decison, from now on, will be easy to take. There will be casualties.
We reached a point in Pokémon's history, where the metagame is simply TOO CROWDED. Try to think about it, as it's very simple to grasp : As generations keep coming, Pokémons are copulating and multiplying their numbers like crazy. One thing didn't change though : We still have 6 slots when we open our builder.
At some point, we'll crash into a wall, as it's getting harder and harder to deal with the myriad of new, very good, yet not necessarly overpowered, Pokémons.
Now, I can already hear people replying to that "but, maybe a Pokémon can check more Pokémons than before, making the building still possible". I agree to an extent, but it doesn't make my statement wrong. I think with XY (and already with BW), our tier was on verge of breaking up. Surely, way more Pokémons can be checked than before, but right now in OU, a builder is not able to virtually deal with most of the niche threats.
Stuff like Altaria DD with a specific coverage option, a boosting Talonflame, Volcarona with either Roost or a random coverage move, Azumarill BD Knock Off, Manaphy with god knows what, Unaware CM Clefable, Lopunny with Encore or Power-up-punch or whatever, a very fast Bisharp SD, Jolly CharX with either EQ or Flare Blitz, Diancie with a mixed set and a random coverage move, GyaradosM with Taunt or Substitute, Substitute FlincHachi, Lati@sM CM or some gay Twave shit, MetagrossM with HP Fire (you're still hoping you don't meet that right?), DD TyranitarM (you all forgot about this one too), Landorus with 4 moves you'll have to figure out as you lose your team members, SD RP or Substitute LandorusT etc
etc
etc.

I could go on for hours, there are so many niche threats, the guy who tries to cover them all is a fool. Because that's simply not possible. By a long shot at that.
Right now, the most sucessful strategy in OU IMO, is to build a very generic defensive core attempting most of the obvious threats, and pair it with a niche win condition without necessarly preparing it too too much (not commit). The point being, you want to delay the other's guy win condition as much as possible (hazards are very good for that, paired with phazing, that's why Hippo + Tornadus + Spikes is so good, you cover a lot of stuff, but not in depth), while hoping that your own win condition has a shot at winning. I think my game in semis of the Suspect tour showcases it pretty well. My answer to CM Clefable was my own QD Volcarona (so basically, I was not very prepared, neither was my opponent for that matter). However, I got to choose when I could engage this CM war due to phazing and offensive pressure (which is a very big + for me). Even though my opponent managed to be way luckier than me here, I still could manage to win due to me having simply MORE win conditions at hand (ones that were faring better than his, luckily). So much more that I literally threw them into a wall till the wall breaks.

Basically, it's impossible to prepare for everything that is niche. That's why you need to have a niche win condition, and hope your opponent won't be ready. The more unic threats you can fit inside the team, the better it will be. At the same time, you want a defensive core that your opponent will need to weaken, a defensive core that will buy you as much time as possible.
Since you can't cover the threats, you need to "out-threat" your opponent (which, don't be confused, doesn't mean that HO is the ultimate best option). We need to rethink the building, it's not about covering things, it's about bringing what your opponent won't be ready for.


Now, about Aegislash.
I don't agree. It doesn't relieve much pressure out of your shoulders as builder. Sure you can slap Aegislash onto any team, basically it'll always do its work. Did I switch my Aegislash into DiancieM and MetagrossM ? Yes I did, and both times I ate an EQ/EarthPower and thought to myself "well, obviously, they're very ready for this". It won't change anything in terms of "easing" the building. Just like Giratina, as trolly as it was, the conclusion is the same : simply another threat to account for when building.
And what a threat, on the suspect I literally could not deal with the SD versions. My teams were not hitting as hard as needed most of the time, so I'd just predict an incoming Shadow Ball most of the time, and click [X] as the Aegislash SDs up. It's so damn hard to deal with a freaking stab Shadow Ball coming from a 150 SPA, like what are you thinking when you bring this in OU. And on top of that you have to deal with some Weakness Policy shit with SD... sigh.
This was for the ladder.

For the tournament, I didn't meet that many Aegislashes, because I think the people simply don't care as much and played sometimes with teams not even prepared for the ruleset of the tournament. The three last players I faced were not even using it IIRC. I did use it though, I used it every single game. Was it something decisive ? Not really, most of the time it's a good punching bag, but it's such a relief when you think "I can just switch to Aegislash and fire off a Shadow Ball". Oh yea, I probably won that last game because I trap'd a threat with Pursuit Aegislash. Ha, Pursuit Aegislash, who predicts that right?
All in all, it's something very safe, that applies pressure onto your building more than it takes it off, and it's versatile at will = Too good, and not healthy. You want this out.


About the argument of banning KS, I don't buy it. I don't see the point of making an exception here. We could have done such things by the past, and we didn't. Plus is that even needed ? I don't see what is the purpose of Aegislash in the tier, at all. Sweepers will simply adapt and carry a ground move more often, LopunnyM will become more played than MetagrossM and that's it. You turned the tables around, that's about it. The number of threats won't diminish, quite the contrary.

So yea, basically, nothing will be retardly OP from now on, but hopefully voters/council will be able to see behind this fact, and think about what is going on, as a whole.

Voting Ban, obviously.
 
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Edit by haunter: removed the off-topic/ranting part.

Now, I'm gonna explain my vision over what's going on in this tier, even if I already explained it a bit as I voted last suspect.
No decison, from now on, will be easy to take. There will be casualties.
We reached a point in Pokémon's history, where the metagame is simply TOO CROWDED.

It's impossible to prepare for everything that is niche. That's why you need to have a niche win condition, and hope your opponent won't be ready. The more unic threats you can fit inside the team, the better it will be. At the same time, you want a defensive core that your opponent will need to weaken, a defensive core that will buy you as much time as possible.
Since you can't cover the threats, you need to "out-threat" your opponent (which, don't be confused, doesn't mean that HO is the ultimate best option). We need to rethink the building, it's not about covering things, it's about bringing what your opponent won't be ready for.


Now, about Aegislash.
I don't agree. It doesn't relieve much pressure out of your shoulders as builder. Sure you can slap Aegislash onto any team, basically it'll always do its work. Did I switch my Aegislash into DiancieM and MetagrossM ? Yes I did, and both times I ate an EQ/EarthPower and thought to myself "well, obviously, they're very ready for this". It won't change anything in terms of "easing" the building. Just like Giratina, as trolly as it was, the conclusion is the same : simply another threat to account for when building.
And what a threat, on the suspect I literally could not deal with the SD versions. My teams were not hitting as hard as needed most of the time, so I'd just predict an incoming Shadow Ball most of the time, and click [X] as the Aegislash SDs up. It's so damn hard to deal with a freaking stab Shadow Ball coming from a 150 SPA, like what are you thinking when you bring this in OU. And on top of that you have to deal with some Weakness Policy shit with SD... sigh.
This was for the ladder.

So yea, basically, nothing will be retardly OP from now on, but hopefully voters/council will be able to see behind this fact, and think about what is going on, as a whole.
I just want to point out something, Reymedy: the tiers, on their origins, were intended for everyone to be able to use their favorites.
That's why we keep that usage-based tier lists (in my opinion absurd, as this system keeps some unviable mons above the tiers they should be simply because many incompetent players keep using them where they shouldn't, flygon being the most obvious one, as even the UU viability ranking points it out). If we ban half the tier simply because they are too many threats because of that tier system, we are adressing the problem the wrong way. Maybe it's time to revise how we make the tiers, and how we should make teams.
In addition, if we send all that stuff on the Uber tier, and considering that many are actually not really useful there, mostly because of the primigenies screwing up with the equillibrium (and before you do the typical shitty response, remember everyone: since the creation of AG, Ubers IS NOT "JUST A BANLIST" ANYMORE, anyone who brings that stupid comment again should get a deleted post).

I propose an alternative, for a detailed explanation, look at this thread:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/personal-idea-to-try-to-fix-the-too-many-pókemon-around-problem.3536702/

EDIT: i have split the comment on a new thread, this is not a good place to start reconsidering the tiers, Reymedy. (to any auth seeing this, if creating a new thread without express permit is not allowed, i created it simply because i do not want to turn this into the OT of the forum, thanks for the attention and sorry for the thread).
 
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MZ

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once you put a solid argument to back up your claims, i will extend this, with other 50/50s: in addition to the obvious tyranitar scarf crunch+pursuit against something slower or bisharp's (or anyone's) sucker punch+pursuit combo is a 50/50 for any dark-weak mon unlucky enough to be on the field, there are others.
I really hate picking apart these posts, but what do you mean a solid argument? The point was to pick apart your 50/50 talk which you apparently haven't been able to respond to well. If you want to know what I think about Aegislash, it makes the good things still good and a lot of lower things quite a bit worse and, while it's close, I'm just barely leaning towards banning it for just being over centralizing. But that's not the point of this post tight now.

Consider this: in-KO-range-of-X-move (insert pokemon with priority move and either reliable recovery or a strong stab move, let's say a weakened to about 35% health scizor) in the front of a mon with that X move and more speed but who gets eliminated by the priority move (let's say mamoswine with EQ). (insert boosting sweeper here in late game (charizardX for example)) vs a mon who can both get KOed by his attacks and KO it(let's say excadrill). if that are not 50/50s, i do not know what they are.
I can't understand this situation. Scizor vs Mamoswine sure, but then how does Excadrill come into this and how would it outspeed and kill a DD Zard X? Anyway, that situation is a 50/50. I get that. The point that people are making about Aegislash is that it causes excessive 50/50s by virtue of king's shield and, to an extent, the extreme variety of possible sets. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, you've ignored the argument here that Aegislash causes too many of these uncompetitive situations.

adn it IS possible to win the "50/50" the majority of the time by simply considering what is more dangerous to you.
No, it's not. Because maybe they know what's more dangerous for you and predict accordingly. Let's say you're going to switch out your 40% Talonflame vs Aegislash because you don't want to risk your win con to mind games. Then the Aegislash player can predict that and hit the incoming Excadrill with a sacred sword. But honestly, the fact that you think you can win a 50/50 the majority of the time kind of proves that you don't exactly know what you're talking about. Can you predict a coin flip most of the time? Because that's what a 50/50 is, and since you've admitted that the situation is a 50/50, then I guess you're psychic?

In aegislash's case, let the booster a chance to boost and sweep or give it a chance to kill you is the guess, if the aegi team still has a counter/check for the booster, it will likely use KS, if it has lost it already, it will NEVER let it boost for free.
Or they predict you to predict this. Or they can predict you to predict them to predict it etc. etc.

second, you even readed my post? IT IS NEVER A COINFLIP. The aegi player, if he is worth his salt, will NOT use randomly KS, nor it will use it repeteadly (in which case then IS a 50/50 due to the repeated use=exponential accuracy drop of any protect clones) unless he has no other option
If he doesn't randomly use it, then either you're a god at predictions and know when he will every time or you have to make a genius prediction each and every turn, where losing one seriously impacts your chances of winning. This is why King's Shield is excessively uncompetitive although not ban worthy in my opinion. So I guess thanks for proving my point? I mean you don't have to agree with me, but you can't just outplay a coin flip like you've been suggesting. That implies that one person has better odds in a 50/50.
 
I really hate picking apart these posts, but what do you mean a solid argument? The point was to pick apart your 50/50 talk which you apparently haven't been able to respond to well. If you want to know what I think about Aegislash, it makes the good things still good and a lot of lower things quite a bit worse and, while it's close, I'm just barely leaning towards banning it for just being over centralizing. But that's not the point of this post tight now.


I can't understand this situation. Scizor vs Mamoswine sure, but then how does Excadrill come into this and how would it outspeed and kill a DD Zard X? Anyway, that situation is a 50/50. I get that. The point that people are making about Aegislash is that it causes excessive 50/50s by virtue of king's shield and, to an extent, the extreme variety of possible sets. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, you've ignored the argument here that Aegislash causes too many of these uncompetitive situations.


No, it's not. Because maybe they know what's more dangerous for you and predict accordingly. Let's say you're going to switch out your 40% Talonflame vs Aegislash because you don't want to risk your win con to mind games. Then the Aegislash player can predict that and hit the incoming Excadrill with a sacred sword. But honestly, the fact that you think you can win a 50/50 the majority of the time kind of proves that you don't exactly know what you're talking about. Can you predict a coin flip most of the time? Because that's what a 50/50 is, and since you've admitted that the situation is a 50/50, then I guess you're psychic?


Or they predict you to predict this. Or they can predict you to predict them to predict it etc. etc.


If he doesn't randomly use it, then either you're a god at predictions and know when he will every time or you have to make a genius prediction each and every turn, where losing one seriously impacts your chances of winning. This is why King's Shield is excessively uncompetitive although not ban worthy in my opinion. So I guess thanks for proving my point? I mean you don't have to agree with me, but you can't just outplay a coin flip like you've been suggesting. That implies that one person has better odds in a 50/50.
To be honest, you are exaggerating the uncompetitive factor of King's Shield a bit: there is a decent amount of opportunity cost when using King's Shield, and a smart player will be able to take advantage of an opponent using King's Shield. However, the point that Aegislash has the advantage when the opponent switches out is still true, as most of Aegislash's checks have difficulties switching into it in fear of getting screwed over by a particular Aegislash variant.
 

MZ

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To be honest, you are exaggerating the uncompetitive factor of King's Shield a bit: there is a decent amount of opportunity cost when using King's Shield, and a smart player will be able to take advantage of an opponent using King's Shield. However, the point that Aegislash has the advantage when the opponent switches out is still true, as most of Aegislash's checks have difficulties switching into it in fear of getting screwed over by a particular Aegislash variant.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's broken and it has its downsides. However it's also impossible to have an advantage in a 50/50, which was all I was trying to point out. Tbh I've mostly been playing with no KS Aegis because the free moveslot is also really good and aegis still does most of his broken things
 
n how does Excadrill come into this and how would it outspeed and kill a DD Zard X?
you did not understand: charizardX with no boosts is on the field, excadrill is too. if chari DDces, it destroys your team cause it's lategame. but if he attacks and you loose exca, you loose a critical mon of your team and win nothing. that is a 50/50, right? but it's obvious that when compared the possible consequences of one choose (loosing excadrill) to the possible consequences of the other (loosing the battle entirely), it is obvious what the exca player will choose.

and if he "predicts you predicting that you blablabla" then congrats for the aegi player but it nearly lost his team by doing that. like the exca situation above, the sweep possibility is just so dangerous you get basically no choice and try to prevent the setup.

and thanks alfalfa for understanding the main point.


and it is incredibly easy for me to take advantage of the 50/50s of the offensive set. all you need is a bulky sweeper with recovery. the defensive set is not a very good idea to setup on itunless your name is scizor or bulky altaria with heal bell but it is a lot easier to wall itself
 
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