Introducing the OU (no Mega) Ladder

[Martin]

Stall is still viable. The only real change is that it loses Magic Bounce, which just means that it is a little more susceptible to hazards and status than before.

Also spike-stacking stall is WAY more viable now, which pushes Forry's viability up due to its access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, SR and Rapid Spin to preserve your own hazards while removing other players' hazards. Also, with it having SO much choice in its hazard use, it means that a it can run different moves depending on what else is on the team. I personally like running it alongside Ferrothorn as Forry can set up T-Spikes+another hazard, and then Ferro just sets the remaining one. Just make sure to carry a Heatran or something to absorb fire-type moves XD

 

[ryan]

this ladder is Very Competitive™

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ounomega-225884091

(also I'd do a viability thread if people are interested)

 

[AM]

Yeah people were interested. Celticpride is gonna put together a viability ranking so expect that in the coming days.

 

[MANNAT]

Is the support smooth rock set still one of the best sets for TTar, or is an offensive set better in this meta?

 

[UnicornDemon2]

So, if Aegislash is unbanned on the standard ladder, will he be unbanned here as well? From what I've gathered, the main arguments in favor for unbanning Aegislash in OU are that, even though he would likely be centralizing, his presence is a net gain for the metagame due to the fact that he reduces the influence of team match-up by checking a lot of hard-hitting and difficult to prepare for megas like M-Metagross, M-Gardevoir, etc. However, this ladder obviously doesn't have all those hard-hitting megas -> so Aegislash wouldn't really be lessening issues with team match-up. I mean, he checks a few dangerous Pokemon like Latios and Clefable, but these Pokemon are already waaayyy easier to prepare for than Aegislash would be.

This is largely speculation of course, but I imagine trying to counter Aegislash on this ladder would be difficult impossible. It can lure out and kill off a lot of its checks with totally viable moves such as Sacred Sword (Bisharp, Heatran), HP Ice (Lando, Gliscor), or Sub-toxic (Mandibuzz, Hippowdon). With those stats, typing, and move-pool, he's able to run a lot of really great sets -> tank + leftovers; max speed, life orb, 4 attacks wall-breaker; sub-toxic; swords dance; pursuit trapper; etc. I don't think this ladder would gain anything positive from adding Aegislash.

There's also King's Shield 50/50s, which are pure tomfoolery and turn many situations into a guess fest. I suppose Bisharp forces 33/33/34s too, as you try to predict sucker punch vs pursuit vs knock off. Although Bisharp is just overall easier to deal with due to worse defenses, physical only (easier to predict), and a slightly inferior STAB combo.

 

[Taylor]

To maximize its offensive potential to its absolute fullest, Aegislash is easier to easy to kill in one hit with STAB and the right super effective move. I just feel its unique ability to become the focal point of your team, no matter your playstyle or whether you're running /stall/standard/etc. In a no-mega environment I would be really curious to see how well Aegislash features without the focus being soley dealing with Megas and their creepy power stats there to keep your Aegislash in the game. It's actually good to draw out your opponent's Aegislash early so they can't hold it back until the perfect opportunity arises. So without Mega evolutions to keep your Aegislash busy, you have room to experiment with more creative sets and use all of its different assets it possesses as a very game-changing 'mon which can flip the game on its head.

So yeah, no mega ladder would certanily see Aegislash quickly rise to the top of the metagame as one of its most popular threats.

 

[Martin]

Aegislash would probably just flat-out break the no-mega meta tbh. It amplifies the best pokemon in the format (i.e. Landorus) and it takes a load of otherwise top-tier threats such as Jirachi and makes them rlly bad. If it does get unbanned from regular OU (not likely seeing how consistently the anti-ban arguments are being shut down by various users in the thread) it shouldn't be unbanned here as its overcentralisation is just further amplified, and the surge of Knock Off really wouldn't be enough to stop it being unhealthy.

 

[That Weirdd Guy]

I have to agree with gamer boy and UnicornDemon2, Aegislash would make an already borderline broken pokemon like Landorus better, and would make Bisharp even more common. I feel as though Aegislash is being suspected to test whether or not the current OU metagame can be more balanced by checking most of the new megas that have been leading to the problems that the OU tier has been having. In this meta however Aegislash would act more as a centralizing threat that would warp this metagame in a very unnecessary manner. Given that, I really would not like to see Aegislash in this meta, if it is brought back into OU. I feel this way because Aegislash would discourage creativity in this already young metagame. In my opinion Aeigislash would stunt this metagame's growth because of its versatility, splashability, centralization, etc.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Tagging haunter because still haven't heard if Aegislash is banned in regular ou would it be banned in this meta? I would prefer no, not because I think it would be broken, but because we have no data on its effects and results of another tier should not effect this tier.

Also how would threats go about being suspected for this tier? (Mainly thinking a bisharp or landorous test)

 

[Enki]

The metagame tests the effect of the Mega Evolutions in the ou tier, so if by chance Aegislash returns to ou it would be unbanned here too, same goes if for example Landorus-Incarnate will get banned to ubers, it won't be useable here too.

 

[haunter]

Tagging haunter because still haven't heard if Aegislash is banned in regular ou would it be banned in this meta? I would prefer no, not because I think it would be broken, but because we have no data on its effects and results of another tier should not effect this tier.

Also how would threats go about being suspected for this tier? (Mainly thinking a bisharp or landorous test)

We're not running suspect tests for this ladder. If someone can make a good case as to why Bisharp or Landorus should be banned, we can ban them with no formalities. Ideally an informal vote from let's say the first 50 or so people on the ladder.

 

[p2]

Bisharp is great in this and centralising to an extent, but it's definitely not banworthy. There are an abundance of fighting types available to use and a lot of them can easily handle Bisharp even at +2, it's difficult to switch into but the tier can easily handle it, there are plenty of available answers and a lot of them have gotten better since there are no megas holding them back, ie Chesnaught or Terrakion.

Landorus, on the other hand, despite having peaked at #1 on the ladder I have ran into an extremely low amount of Landorus-I on the ladder so I have little experience with facing it, but I don't think it's banworthy right now because it's common offensive answers have gotten so much better, see Azumarill, Weavile, Mamo, Torn-T. All of these are fairly splashable on balance / offensive teams while Stall teams still have Cresselia to handle Lando.

 

[MANNAT]

The metagame is honestly really balanced right now, and I don't think anything needs a suspect. Every mon that we thought was broken before in regular OU were either megas or their main checks are good enough for them to not be a problem, and nothing has become so good that we need to ban it.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Bisharp is great in this and centralising to an extent, but it's definitely not banworthy. There are an abundance of fighting types available to use and a lot of them can easily handle Bisharp even at +2, it's difficult to switch into but the tier can easily handle it, there are plenty of available answers and a lot of them have gotten better since there are no megas holding them back, ie Chesnaught or Terrakion.

Landorus, on the other hand, despite having peaked at #1 on the ladder I have ran into an extremely low amount of Landorus-I on the ladder so I have little experience with facing it, but I don't think it's banworthy right now because it's common offensive answers have gotten so much better, see Azumarill, Weavile, Mamo, Torn-T. All of these are fairly splashable on balance / offensive teams while Stall teams still have Cresselia to handle Lando.

Yes there are several things to revenge lando: Mamo, weavile azumarill, starmie, keldeo. Yet its switch ins are quite limited. Off the top of my head i can only think of Torn-T, cresselia, skarmory, gyarados, Thundurus, Lati@S, Blissey, rotom-w. The lati@s and cresselia are limited by Knock off spam. Anything else risks getting bopped by hp ice or earthpower. Not to mention two other cover moves.

In exchange 101 speed tier is so much better now and its lost as checks:
MegaMetagross, Mega Aero, MegaSceptile, MegaDiancie, MegaGallade, Pidgeot, Beedrill, lopunny, ZardY, Pinsir, Manetric. Yes not all of them receive that much use.

Ie quite a few megas to check it in exchange some things that can handle it already in ou become slightly more used is what you would think.
Regular OU
4 | Rotom-Wash | 13.91302%
10 | Azumarill | 10.84621%
15 | Keldeo | 9.31088%
19 | Starmie | 8.24932%
44 | Mamoswine | 4.00895%
50 | Weavile | 3.50340%
62 | Tornadus-Therian | 2.51349%

NoMegaOU
8 | Rotom-Wash | 10.11310%
7 | Azumarill | 10.34004%
20 | Starmie | 6.80548%
26 | Keldeo | 5.70502%
27 | Weavile | 5.53693%
28 | Mamoswine | 5.37432%
113 | Tornadus-Therian | 1.38805%

In reality most of the checks receive lower usage and only weavile and mamo receive higher usage.
Yes bulkier teams have options to handle it, but they are limited by knock off spam and and pursuit.
Faster teams can revenge it, but mons that can safely switch in are limited.

What is really hurt is balance which has very few answers to it.

 

[RonaldMcdonald]

I think it's been mentioned before but hazard stacking is particularly good in this meta-game and I've been using this hazard stacking core of Chesnaught and offensive Heatran on the ladder with great success:

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Synthesis
- Spikes
- Hammer Arm
- Seed Bomb

The 60 speed EV's allow Chesnaught to out-speed standard Belly Drum Azumarill though the standard 252 HP 252+ Defense impish spread can be run if your team handles Azumarill well as it gives Chesnaught more bulk. Chesnaught is the only consistent defensive check to Crawdaunt in the no-mega metagame and is also the best Bisharp check that exists and can set spikes on things it walls relatively easily. Hammer arm and synthesis are used over drain punch and leech seed because too many ko's are missed with drain punch and the speed drop usually doesn't matter. Synthesis is a much more reliable method of recovery than leech seed and drain punch and even though the amount of recovery is halved in sand chesnaught beats hippowdon, excadrill, and Tyranitar one on one and can also be an asset against rain teams as it is one of the few mons in no-mega that can wall kabutops.

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock

Heatran and Chesnaught cover each other's weaknesses extremely well (Chesnaught + Heatran is the closest thing to the VenuTran core in no-mega with regular Venusaur not having the defenses of its mega counterpart) with Heatran covering Chesnaught's ice, fairy, fire, flying, and psychic weaknesses with Chesnaught covering Heatran's water and ground weaknesses as well as walling most fighting types that threaten Heatran out. The spread is the standard leadtran spread with enough speed to outrun most stealth rock setters (Defensive Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Tank Garchomp, Tyranitar etc.) and taunt them while running max special attack investment so Heatran can punish switch ins like Offensive Starmie (Seriously takes a wallop after Fire Blast and Stealth rock). The moves can be changed with a more accurate fire move such as flamethrower or lava plume replaced with fire blast. Flash cannon can be replaced with toxic to punish walls or even Ancient Power to beat Talonflame more consistently though I prefer Flash Cannon to beat clefable and hit Azumarill, Latios, and others that resist Fire Blast on the switch hard. A standard Specially Defensive Tran can work and form a nice defensive core for balanced and stall teams (stall is still viable in this meta just rarely seen) but I prefer this set on hazard stacking and more offensive teams because it's a much better hazard setter than the standard Specially Defensive Heatran and hits a whole lot harder at the expense of bulk.


Good partners to the core include wall-breakers that appreciate spike support as well as other pokemon with more speed that give offensive pressure. Offensive Starmie gives the core a spinner and something with speed as well as analytic to punish switch-ins. On more defensive teams or teams that need more consistent stealth rock removal bulky Starmie also partners well with this core.

 

[SketchUp]

Cool set (/ core) I have been playing with:

Gyarados @ Power Herb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 120 HP / 236 Atk / 8 Def / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Bounce

Power Herb has some important niches which are beating Spiky Shield Chesnaught without needing Taunt (so you have room for EQ or Sub) beating Celebi who can be annoying with Sub / BP against Bounce and pokemon such as Azumarill and Manaphy who love to use the turn of bounce to set up a TG or BD. With this EV spread you outspeed everything up to base 110 at +1, as well as a -1 Lati@s (Keldeo Icy Wind) at +0. 236 Attack with an Adamant nature guarantees the OHKO on Azumarill after rocks with a +2 Bounce and 120 HP without SpD investment lets you survive 2 Timid Sludge Waves from Landorus.
This set has some very consistent switchins, Rotom-W being the most obvious one. An offensive grass type like Serperior is an obvious choice as a teammate but Electric Types are great partners too, as they do not only break bulky waters, but also kill Skarmory, Talonflame and Garchomp. Thundurus gets a special mention here because it can also get past Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B and Excadrill. It can even run a Grass Knot lure set to get rid of Quagsire! Gyarados can break bulky ground types to help Thundurus and surprise Celebi / Amoonguss with Power Herb Bounce who also annoy Thundurus.

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Hidden Power Ice

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast

 

[Funbot28]

Is this ladder going to remain permanent?

 

[Clone]

Is this ladder going to remain permanent?

yes

 

[420LegitShucks]

How do you think the meta will run without Megas? Megas are a staple in XY/ORAS, and without them, it leaves room for Pokemon such as Thundurus-T and Landorus-T to become OP. This tier should not exist. (Plz don't ban me this is only the first post I've ever made.)

 

[p2]

How do you think the meta will run without Megas? Megas are a staple in XY/ORAS, and without them, it leaves room for Pokemon such as Thundurus-T and Landorus-T to become OP. This tier should not exist. (Plz don't ban me this is only the first post I've ever made.)

Not really. Landorus-T is really manageable without megas and to be fair, Thundurus-T isn't really that much of a relevant threat.

The meta is fairly balanced right now, the only thing that could be a problem is Landorus-I since the speed creep has been knocked down a lot without megas and its pretty difficult to switch into and you need to make fairly shaky plays to make sure it doesn't destroy your team, but that's something that will be dealt with if its deemed too broken.

 

[Tramuntana]

The viability ranking of the no mega tier is on? because i like to see the starting points before discussing them

 

[LeoLancaster]

The viability ranking of the no mega tier is on? because i like to see the starting points before discussing them

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-no-mega-viability-ranking-thread-check-post-63.3536150/

 

[Martin]

Those rankings are based around standard, so there is a lot of stuff that should prolly be ranked slightly higher due to the speed creep not being that much of an issue anymore.

 

[420LegitShucks]

Not really. Landorus-T is really manageable without megas and to be fair, Thundurus-T isn't really that much of a relevant threat.

The meta is fairly balanced right now, the only thing that could be a problem is Landorus-I since the speed creep has been knocked down a lot without megas and its pretty difficult to switch into and you need to make fairly shaky plays to make sure it doesn't destroy your team, but that's something that will be dealt with if its deemed too broken.

Landorus-I has the exact same speed tier as Thundurus-T. Landorus-I simply gets destroyed by HP Ice and Thundurus-T can use as as Nasty Plot fodder. Landorus-I in no way compares to anything I posted. Landorus-T Intimidates it and kills it with HP Ice while another Pokemon can enjoy having it gone. Gothitelle will be broken as the power that the Megas have are gone, so its 70/95/110 defenses can take over and trap anything it wants due to Shadow Tag. Drop a Choice item on any Pokemon that doesn't appreciate it, and kill anything you want. Gothitelle without Megas is basically Mega Gengar all over again. None of the Pokemon I listed can beat Gothitelle. This tier will now revolve around bulky Pokemon. It's unbalanced.

 

[Red King]

Landorus-I has the exact same speed tier as Thundurus-T. Landorus-I simply gets destroyed by HP Ice and Thundurus-T can use as as Nasty Plot fodder. Landorus-I in no way compares to anything I posted. Landorus-T Intimidates it and kills it with HP Ice while another Pokemon can enjoy having it gone. Gothitelle will be broken as the power that the Megas have are gone, so its 70/95/110 defenses can take over and trap anything it wants due to Shadow Tag. Drop a Choice item on any Pokemon that doesn't appreciate it, and kill anything you want. Gothitelle without Megas is basically Mega Gengar all over again. None of the Pokemon I listed can beat Gothitelle. This tier will now revolve around bulky Pokemon. It's unbalanced.

Well for one, Landorus Incarnate is better than ever, which makes a very good case not to run slower teams in this meta. Seriously with knock off spam, and pokemon like manaphy and landorus i in the meta bulky teams have their work cut out for them, which brings me to another point. Goth is about as bad as it's always been on ladder. I wouldn't go jumping around calling it the "New mega gengar" as goth is still complete shit as pokemon in general, it's only saving grace being shadowtag.

Regardless of what happens to the suspect test in normal OU, Landorus I should be banned from OU no mega. With the megas gone, Speed creep has drastically lowered reducing the amount of pokemon that can contend with this monster. It's power is well documented and absurd, making fully grounded teams almost a joke lest they are obliterated by earth power. It's movepool is vast and be used to deal with almost all of it's counters baring cress, as mega latias is now gone. 4 attacks rock slide sets with pursuit support is incredibly hard to face while using slower teams of any sort. It's also bulky enough to make it disturbingly hard to revenge kill.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and then landorus OHKOs with sludge wave. It's also immune to paralysis making rock polish sweeps not concerned about thundurus or klefki. it's 101 speed tier is now golden thanks to the massive lowering of speed creep. it has no trouble eating both offensive and defensive teams with it's various sets. This thing is such a destructive versatile force in this tier that drives the opportunity cost of not using it through the roof, not to mention forcing teams to run multiple checks unless they want to be matchup'd by an hp ice, rock slide or knock off set. It's completely unhealthy for this meta on a level far above that of normal OU, and it's being suspected there. You can actually justify quickbanning this thing as it adds nothing good to the tier but unhealthy centralization.

Edit: we should honestly quickban this thing.