Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Kurona]

Mega Camerupt should be moved to C- or D-Rank in my opinion. Its outclassed significantly by both Charizard Y and Landorous, both of whom are faster and hit much harder. Its Speed is pretty terrible and when combined with its two significant weaknesses to Water and Ground, the amount of mons it can switch into is limited. Definitely not C-Rank material, especially when far better options such as Charizard Y and Landorus-I exist.

It's ranked where it is due to it's role on trick room teams - it is of course incredibly hard to justify over Chary and Lando in any other scenario, but being one of if not the best mega for trick room is what gives it it's current place.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

I think that Wobbuffet should rise from C+ to B-, Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

This describes Wobbuffet. In the transition to ORAS, it became better with the ability to trap and kill Mega Metagross, though Mega Sableye takes a crap on it, it can still trap and kill quite a few things. The main reason to use it over Gothitelle lies in Encore + Safeguard Shenanigans, while at the same time, it gained Custap berry to run Destiny Bond shenanigans. It also makes a decent lead if you happen to have Rapid Spin or Defog support, as it can encore an opposing lead into a hazard, then make room for an early game sweep or at least provide some momentum for you.
It also takes out the majority of all scarfers, namely, Latios, Keldeo, and several others, and can be EVed to Survive a Life Orb Bisharp Knock off, then retaliate with Counter to neuter it on the spot. With Greninja (with Dark Pulse), one of the things that made its life Miserable gone, it has gotten a little bit more viable.

 

[SaberSeven]

I'm familiar with how Tornadus-T works and I think it should rise to A+. Base 121 speed is fantastic. U-Turn + Regenerator helps with its longevity. Having problems with Chansey or some other fat mon? Knock Off says hi. You can go for a fast and powerful attacker with a Life Orb set or have it tank a few special hits with an assault vest set. Hurricane's accuracy is a turn off, but accuracy of Hurricane aside, this thing should go A+.

I tried nominating Toxicroak up from B- to B in the last thread and I'd like to try so again. Toxicroak can serve as a check to all fairies in the tier bar Mega Diancie & a Mega Altaria with a Dragon Dance under its belt as well as a check to Keldeo with its Dry Skin ability that gives it the added bonus of not getting burned. Toxicroak can also serve as a check to the following with the appropriate move (either Sucker Punch, Gunk Shot, or Drain Punch): Bisharp, Heatran, the Lati twins with a bit of prior damage, Ferrothorn, Manaphy lacking Psychic, Starmie with a bit of prior damage, Celebi lacking Psychic, Chansey, and Tyranitar (depending on whether or not it has just come in holding a choice Scarf & packing Earthquake). Below are a few relevant calcs.

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 408-484 (139.7 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 299-354 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 237-281 (79.2 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 147-174 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO (Best move that Keldeo can hit Toxicroak with)

Unfortunately for Toxicroak, bulky ground types such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Hippowdon, Gliscor and Landorus-T exist (although Toxicroak can carry Ice Punch for them) and base 85 speed isn't the best in the meta, but with the ability to serve as a fairy check as well as a Keldeo check should merit a Toxicroak rise to B.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Unfortunately for Toxicroak, bulky ground types such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Hippowdon, Gliscor and Landorus-T exist (although Toxicroak can carry Ice Punch for them) and base 85 speed isn't the best in the meta, but with the ability to serve as a fairy check as well as a Keldeo check should merit a Toxicroak rise to B.

I kinda like the idea of a four-attacks set with Ice Punch. Lando and Garchomp can't switch in without risking getting smacked, while Gliscor can live it only to take a Sucker, or you can even outspeed it. And the stuff you've listed is +0 with a neutral nature, so you don't necessarily need a Dragon Dance to wreak havoc. (It would probably help though, considering the low speed tier.)

 

[Flamer]

Been seeing recently more and more people quoting the ranking descriptions as reasoning to move a mon up or down. The problem with this is that those descriptions can be warped to suit whatever you say and have no bearing on the actual viability of mons. Instead of quoting an arbitrary line and discussing how it suits that instead compare it to the mons in the rank you want it to move to or the rank its originally in. Note That Grammar Terrorist this was directed mostly at you, Im just pointing it out because you're new and its a good thing to note in future.

 

[Dilwar]

Why is Latias ranked lower than Latios? I always viewed them as on par with each other - one for power, one for bulk. I know people generally favour the power of Latios because it gets some clean OHKOs, but Latias has some good things over it as well, such as Healing Wish and bulk at the cost of power. With its bulk it's a better check to things like Keldeo (lives 2 Specs Icy Winds), Thundurus and Landorus-I (can live Knock Off after SR unlike Latios). Just curious since they always used to be ranked together, and are like that in Ubers as well.

 

[bludz]

Here's a post by Jukain early on in the 2nd Viability Rankings Thread:

"Latias should always remain one rank behind Latios IMO and that's because it's much more exploitable than Latios. The extra bulk it has isn't all that relevant for the most part, especially considering the loss in power, and its main niche is Healing Wish, which is effective with offensive partners and is enough to give Latias a pretty solid niche over Latios, but it also means that Latias is much more strapped for moveslots and less versatile than Latios. Latios can run all kinds of sets and variants like Roost + 3 attacks with a variety of coverage options available for the third attack, Roost + Defog for a consistent Defogger and Keldeo check, and Choice Scarf to cripple defensive Pokemon with Trick and revenge kill faster foes like Mega Lopunny especially. More gimmicky, but still effective options like CM and Heal Block can even prove useful for certain teams to enhance Latios's breaking capabilities against more defensively oriented and balanced builds. Latios simply poses a much more multidimensional threat than Latias and this is enough to push it down to A Rank, especially seeing as Latias is typically even more easily taken advantage of by Pokemon like Clefable, Mega Metagross, and Heatran than Latios is."

 

[Alfalfa]

Why is Latias ranked lower than Latios? I always viewed them as on par with each other - one for power, one for bulk. I know people generally favour the power of Latios because it gets some clean OHKOs, but Latias has some good things over it as well, such as Healing Wish and bulk at the cost of power. With its bulk it's a better check to things like Keldeo (lives 2 Specs Icy Winds), Thundurus and Landorus-I (can live Knock Off after SR unlike Latios). Just curious since they always used to be ranked together, and are like that in Ubers as well.

Latias is a lot easier to take advantage of than Latios due to its lower attack power and suffering a massive opportunity cost when trying to fit in coverage to beat certain checks. In addition, Latias is not that difficult for the Pokemon it checks to prepare for, as Latias lacks the ability to pressure Pursuit users like Latios can. While Latias is a good Pokemon, it is very overloaded, and is susceptible to being taken advantage of by the opponent, hence why it is a rank below Latios.

Also, the Ubers metagame is irrevelant to OU, just something is good in Ubers does not mean that viability carries over to OU.

EDIT: For the sake of not double-posting I am going to respond to Flamer's point here.

Been seeing recently more and more people quoting the ranking descriptions as reasoning to move a mon up or down. The problem with this is that those descriptions can be warped to suit whatever you say and have no bearing on the actual viability of mons. Instead of quoting an arbitrary line and discussing how it suits that instead compare it to the mons in the rank you want it to move to or the rank its originally in. Note That Grammar Terrorist this was directed mostly at you, Im just pointing it out because you're new and its a good thing to note in future.

Using your reasoning, Wobbuffet's rise is not that unprecedented. It is a lot more suited towards fitting on ORAS teams than Alomomola and Mandibuzz, and Bronzong and Magneton's niches are much more exaggerated in a metagame that is not particularly in either of these Pokemon's favor. I personally think that its practical usability has increased with the advent of ORAS introducing it two dominant threats that both have issues with Wobbuffet in Mega Lopunny and Mega Metagross. However, I feel that people's lack of general knowledge on how to play against Wobbuffet is partly what makes it so effective in the current metagame. If you know what you are doing, you will be smart enough to prevent your opponent from taking advantage of Wobbuffet's weaknesses by attempting to force it out with Bisharp or Tyranitar. While these Pokemon are annoying for Wobbuffet to deal with, taking advantage of it is not as easy as forcing it out because most Pokemon cannot even OHKO it. In general, the metagame is a bit underprepared to deal with it, and while Wobbuffet gets worn down really easily, if you play it correctly, it will have done its job by the time it is KOd anyways, so getting worn down is not necessarily that fatal of a flaw. That being said, I do not think a rise to B- is that unprecedented.

 

[Dilwar]

Latias is a lot easier to take advantage of than Latios due to its lower attack power and suffering a massive opportunity cost when trying to fit in coverage to beat certain checks. In addition, Latias is not that difficult for the Pokemon it checks to prepare for, as Latias lacks the ability to pressure Pursuit users like Latios can. While Latias is a good Pokemon, it is very overloaded, and is susceptible to being taken advantage of by the opponent, hence why it is a rank below Latios.

Also, the Ubers metagame is irrevelant to OU, just something is good in Ubers does not mean that viability carries over to OU.

Fair enough. I know Ubers isn't relevant, just using an example showing how they're usually ranked together (they were before).

 

[Kurona]

No shoutout to Kugawattan for the new shiny banner? Sadness :(

 

[AM]

No shoutout to Kugawattan for the new shiny banner? Sadness :(

Was gonna do it when I updated a couple rank changes and other stuff. Should be tonight.

 

[FaZeBoo]

On the manaphy slate, i believe a rise is very reasonable, due to the fact that it is if not the best, easily one of the best wall/meta breakers right now. The 100 hp def and spdef helf it live hits, giving it a tail glow. when it gets one up, its almost guaranteed a kill. it also has more capabilities to sweep rather than most of the A+ mons. (exceptions- azu, mega lop, sab, bisharp, tflame, and thundurus.) However, manaphy has an ability to sweep from turn 1. maybe it wont 6-0, but with scald + 2 coverage, it does very well. its best counter is ferrothorn, which can still hit for neutral damage that can hurt on a switch.

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

and if you arent running ice beam and you are running rain, its the same roll in rain for scald.

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

overall, it does way better than 95% a mons (hippo) and it deserves the bump to A+

 

[AM]

Serperior: B+ > A-
Tornadus-T: A > A+

These were pretty clear and cut between team where there wasn't any strong disagreement to their placement so going forward with this.

Thanks to Kugawattan for the new banner, means a lot. Henry is also now back on ranking team.

Keep it rolling.

Edit: Oh and this is what I mean by small updates as opposed to slates so that's the idea.

 

[branflakes]

The biggest problem with Manaphy is that offensive sets aren't strong enough to apply immediate pressure. Although 100/100/100 defenses are impressive, offensive Manaphy doesn't have a stellar defensive typing that allows it to switch in regularly. Thus, Manaphy's usefulness is often limited to specific setup opportunities which renders it useless if the opponent has one or two solid checks. I think Manaphy's biggest strength is its versatility, which allows it to eliminate would-be checks (i.e. Ferrothorn w/ hp fire, Venu w/ psychic, opposing water types w/ energy ball), and possibly run bulky sets with its decent defenses. Different options for offensive sets allow Manaphy to be tailored to a team's needs.

So tbh idk if I agree with Manaphy rising to A+. It doesn't quite fit in with all of the other A+ mons that either hit really hard or offer better team support, but comparisons to other mons within a given rank are irrelevant. Speaking of which, I don't think it's reasonable to compare Manaphy's viability to that of Hippowdon because they're extremely different. Also hippowdon is pretty damn good at what it does lol

i would like to see more discussion on this

 

[Flamer]

EDIT: For the sake of not double-posting I am going to respond to Flamer's point here.



Using your reasoning, Wobbuffet's rise is not that unprecedented. It is a lot more suited towards fitting on ORAS teams than Alomomola and Mandibuzz, and Bronzong and Magneton's niches are much more exaggerated in a metagame that is not particularly in either of these Pokemon's favor. I personally think that its practical usability has increased with the advent of ORAS introducing it two dominant threats that both have issues with Wobbuffet in Mega Lopunny and Mega Metagross. However, I feel that people's lack of general knowledge on how to play against Wobbuffet is partly what makes it so effective in the current metagame. If you know what you are doing, you will be smart enough to prevent your opponent from taking advantage of Wobbuffet's weaknesses by attempting to force it out with Bisharp or Tyranitar. While these Pokemon are annoying for Wobbuffet to deal with, taking advantage of it is not as easy as forcing it out because most Pokemon cannot even OHKO it. In general, the metagame is a bit underprepared to deal with it, and while Wobbuffet gets worn down really easily, if you play it correctly, it will have done its job by the time it is KOd anyways, so getting worn down is not necessarily that fatal of a flaw. That being said, I do not think a rise to B- is that unprecedented.

I wasn't disagreeing with the post at all, rather I was just giving a few pointers so that i see less posts of people making unsubstantiated arguments with the ranking description as their only point. I have no experience with wobbefett but I would be opposed to any change on its ranking.

 

[Martin]

OK. The other day, I said that Blissey should be on par with/one sub rank below chansey. However, having played around with the two a little more, Blissey is simply more splashable than Chansey is and is better than the unevolved blob in the meta's current state.

• With sandstorm being such a popular and effective strategy in the format, that leftovers recovery is really helpful as it isn't worn down as easily as Chansey, and even without sandstorm the difference in longevity is noticable.
• The biggest problem with Chansey is that it kills any momentum that your team has built up, which limits its use to stall teams (and trust me when I say that HO+Chansey is far less effective than it was in the XY meta due to this). While the same is true for Blissey, this is much less prominent due to its ability to lure out threats to its team with its coverage options.
• Blissey's greater versatility when it comes to what it can run also sets it apart hugely from Chansey. Chansey needs Toxic to have any form of presence on the field. However, Blissey's ability to carry coverage (e.g. Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball etc.), which already gives it very good versatility before considering other moves, allows it to carry Thunder Wave - a tool which is far more crippling to most of its common switchins. This means that its sets are far more varied in what they can carry, and means that Blissey needs a lot more scouting for than Chansey due to the latter only needing to reveal one of its status moves aside from Toxic (or I guess Softboiled, but most wish sets carry Protect>Softboiled, making it typically a non-issue) to reveal its entire set.
• While the greater bulk is a neat asset for Chansey, its not like special attackers can touch Blissey anyway, and you shouldn't be switching/keeping either of them in on physical attacks in the first place due to their sub-par defense. Hell: off of the top of my head, the only thing of note that Chansey does that Blissey can not is avoid a 2HKO from Latios' Psyshock after rocks, and this is before considering that it may use Draco anyway, putting it at -2 SpA and hardly denting either of them anyway. If I am missing anything there, please tell me, as my memory may be failing me there.

In my opinion, having done brief text-based evaluation and hours of testing, Chansey's perks aren't really enough to justify its use over Blissey most of the time, and as a result, I feel that Blissey needs to be either on par with Chansey or one sub rank above it. Feel free to argue against me, as I want to keep an open mind, but this is just what I have personally found.

edit: I'm just gonna say this 'cause I forgot to specify ranks (and these are the ones I'd do if it were me):
Blissey-->B
Chansey-->B-/C+

 

[Clone]

^i personally wouldn't have either go below B- but I agree with everything said above. Blissey is simply better nowadays and should be at B at the very least.

 

[Martin]

^i personally wouldn't have either go below B- but I agree with everything said above. Blissey is simply better nowadays and should be at B at the very least.

IMO, Chansey should be at C+ and Blissey at B as opposed to having Chansey at B- and Blissey at B. Chansey is just so team reliant that it fits in well with stuff like Gastrodon and Bronzong better than it does with Tangrowth, Alomomola and Reuniclus IMO. Maybe that's just me tho XD

Still, it is great to see so many people agree with me about Blissey :D

 

[Srn]

OK. The other day, I said that Blissey should be on par with/one sub rank below chansey. However, having played around with the two a little more, Blissey is simply more splashable than Chansey is and is better than the unevolved blob in the meta's current state.

• With sandstorm being such a popular and effective strategy in the format, that leftovers recovery is really helpful as it isn't worn down as easily as Chansey, and even without sandstorm the difference in longevity is noticable.
• The biggest problem with Chansey is that it kills any momentum that your team has built up, which limits its use to stall teams (and trust me when I say that HO+Chansey is far less effective than it was in the XY meta due to this). While the same is true for Blissey, this is much less prominent due to its ability to lure out threats to its team with its coverage options.
• Blissey's greater versatility when it comes to what it can run also sets it apart hugely from Chansey. Chansey needs Toxic to have any form of presence on the field. However, Blissey's ability to carry coverage (e.g. Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball etc.), which already gives it very good versatility before considering other moves, allows it to carry Thunder Wave - a tool which is far more crippling to most of its common switchins. This means that its sets are far more varied in what they can carry, and means that Blissey needs a lot more scouting for than Chansey due to the latter only needing to reveal one of its status moves aside from Toxic (or I guess Softboiled, but most wish sets carry Protect>Softboiled, making it typically a non-issue) to reveal its entire set.
• While the greater bulk is a neat asset for Chansey, its not like special attackers can touch Blissey anyway, and you shouldn't be switching/keeping either of them in on physical attacks in the first place due to their sub-par defense. Hell: off of the top of my head, the only thing of note that Chansey does that Blissey can not is avoid a 2HKO from Latios' Psyshock after rocks, and this is before considering that it may use Draco anyway, putting it at -2 SpA and hardly denting either of them anyway. If I am missing anything there, please tell me, as my memory may be failing me there.

In my opinion, having done brief text-based evaluation and hours of testing, Chansey's perks aren't really enough to justify its use over Blissey most of the time, and as a result, I feel that Blissey needs to be either on par with Chansey or one sub rank above it. Feel free to argue against me, as I want to keep an open mind, but this is just what I have personally found.

edit: I'm just gonna say this 'cause I forgot to specify ranks (and these are the ones I'd do if it were me):
Blissey-->B
Chansey-->B-/C+

56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 335-395 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

^That's bad :/ But if you can cover that, then i'd agree leftovers makes a really big difference.
Anyways, i have another nom to make
Celebi to A-

Celebi is a pretty great mon. We mostly use it to pass nasty plots, and nasty pass in general is a very efficient and powerful strategy to annihilate slower builds. Grass/Psychic is a pretty fantastic defensive typing, giving u key resistances in water, fighting, and ground. It's not limited to nastypass either, it can do sub pass or even SD pass.
It can even go a full out NP+LO offensive set and that's fairly strong.
When its not baton passing, it has a myriad of support options, like status, heal bell, stealth rocks, and has reliable recovery as well.
It's also a fantastic counter to Rotom-w and we all know how much we hate that piece of shit.

That said, it's way too easy to take advantage of and prepare for. It's simply not NEARLY as influential in the tier as ferrothorn, rotom-w, latias, or tyranitar. The other pokemon in A ranking, like excadrill, starmie, slowbro, and mega venusaur, are just way more important, relevant, and threatening than celebi is.
I mean, that's just how i see things. It's dirt easy to switch into and its offensive presence is shit. Even the NP+LO sets are extremely strapped for coverage, wanting earth power to hit heatran, hp fire to hit ferro/zor, hp ice to hit dragons, and psychic to hit talon/other fighting, all while obviously needing some basic stab to actually threaten waters and grounds back.

It fits in a lot better with mega aero, jirachi, serperior, raikou, and volcorona, pokemon that aren't exactly common on teams but very good on the right teams. That's where celebi fits in. It's not exactly the first pokemon you have in mind to check when you're building a team, like excadrill, rotom-w, char-y, mega manectric, or mega gyarados are, but its something you kind of want to have covered.
Hell, celebi is a kind of pokemon that you can pretty naturally cover in general; any fire, flying, bug, ice, or steel type that can actually hurt shit basically has you covered.

I feel like this is a pretty subjective nom but I hope it makes some sense lol.

 

[Jukain]

I've been seeing a lot of stuff flying around about Blissey being better than Chansey or even on par with her, to the point of massive overexaggeration. Chansey is better than Blissey in many regards. The decrease in overall bulk actually comes into play very often, especially on the physical side. Blissey cannot deal with Mega Diancie at all as she is 2HKOed by Diamond Storm after Stealth Rock damage. Blissey cannot even take two Life Orb Fusion Bolts from specially biased Kyurem-B, leaving her unable to deal with that monster wallbreaker that Chansey is often tasked to deal with. Blissey is also often brought up as some sort of amazing Landorus counter when such is not really the case at all. She still can't deal with Knock Off + Focus Blast Landorus, which is the only variant that can beat Chansey in the first place. Some calcs to prove this point:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 286-338 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.8 - 47%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Blissey's overall lack of physical bulk really hurts her in general compared to Chansey. Chansey can actually wall Mega Aerodactyl to some effect, has no issues taking non-Life Orb boosted hits from Mamoswine, deals with the Lati twins much more reliably and effectively (Blissey can be 2HKOed by Latios's Life Orb Psyshock after Stealth Rock damage), and can actually switch into LO Analytic Starmie Psyshocks. Chansey can use many physical attackers and get off a status, Life Orb stall, or just get up Stealth Rock. Chansey is actually relatively difficult to take out on the physical side, whereas Blissey is just kinda stuck.

Blissey has pros like Leftovers recovery that makes her more difficult to wear down and potential to use offensive moves. However, outside of those two benefits, Chansey is straight-up better than Blissey in every regard imaginable. I don't think Blissey should move up further at all.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

Alfalfa

252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 410-486 (76.7 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

(Crunch has the same power as pursuit when switching out)

Yes, it isn't a guaranteed OHKO, but you're still too crippled to do anything when you switch back in; however, if you predict correctly:

252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 206-246 (38.5 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

Which means that Tyranitar is OHKOed by counter.

The things that can OHKO or scare out Wobbuffet are few and in between. Another benefit to Wobbuffet is its effectiveness in taking out Mega Gallade:

252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 260-306 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

and:
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 174-206 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
(After Wobbuffet's item is knocked off, the second Knock Off isn't going to KO Wobbuffet, meaning that you can encore Gallade into Knock Off and switch in a Terrakion to activate Justified or if you get lucky, encore said Gallade into Swords Dance; giving something a chance to set up on the Gallade.)
Ultimately, Wobbuffet doesn't require too much team support, except for Wish from Chansey/Blissey or a Healing Wish from Latias/Latios.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Clefable: A+: Stay. Being able to wall quite a few mons and be a deadly sweeper itself if not prepared for is pretty dangerous.
M-Gyarados: A+: Rise. Mega Gyarados is probably the second best DD'r in the meta after Altaria. The only really common counters are Keldeo, Azumarill, and Ferro, and because of this it has an easy time forming powerful cores. It's also crazy easy to set up.
Manaphy: A: : Stay. Manaphy isn't quite as deadly anymore simply because people prepare for it. However, it's still a deadly threat and tends to get a kill every game, and can sweep if unprepared for.
Tornadus-T: A-: Drop. This thing is pretty overrated imo. First and foremost, Hurricane miss is a total bitch. Yes, you can say "it's not an argument!" but if Focus Blast Keldeo hit every time it'd probably come pretty close to getting banned. On top of that, quite a few mons have risen that can check it; MMeta, Malaria, and Hippowdon are notable. It doesn't even beat the best Fighting-type in the tier, Mega Lopunny...
Chansey: B+: Stay. Still passive as fuck, still annoying to kill.
Mega Houndoom: B: Rise. Outspeeds and destroys Latis, as well as teams that rely on Lati@s to beat Char Y. A very underrated threat, but difficult to teambuild around, and regular Houndoom's speed blows.
Mega Pidgeot: C+: Stay. Hitting Hurricane is nice, but lack of coverage and lack of Regenerator sucks.
Mega Ampharos: C+: Rise. Very underrated mon, Agility set doesn't need much to sweep, not to mention that it's fairly bulky and can be used as a semi-reliable check to mons like Thundurus and Torn-T.
Infernape: C: Stay. It's a fairly niche mon with good coverage, but tons of competition from mons like Talonflame, Heatran, Mega Lopunny...
Scizor: B: Stay. Basically a poor man's Mega Scizor, it does similar things with the bulky set, just not as well. CB is also a neat set for doing massive damage to unsuspecting enemies.

 

[Srn]

Clefable: A+: Stay. Being able to wall quite a few mons and be a deadly sweeper itself if not prepared for is pretty dangerous.
M-Gyarados: A+: Rise. Mega Gyarados is probably the second best DD'r in the meta after Altaria. The only really common counters are Keldeo, Azumarill, and Ferro, and because of this it has an easy time forming powerful cores. It's also crazy easy to set up.
Manaphy: A: : Stay. Manaphy isn't quite as deadly anymore simply because people prepare for it. However, it's still a deadly threat and tends to get a kill every game, and can sweep if unprepared for.
Tornadus-T: A-: Drop. This thing is pretty overrated imo. First and foremost, Hurricane miss is a total bitch. Yes, you can say "it's not an argument!" but if Focus Blast Keldeo hit every time it'd probably come pretty close to getting banned. On top of that, quite a few mons have risen that can check it; MMeta, Malaria, and Hippowdon are notable. It doesn't even beat the best Fighting-type in the tier, Mega Lopunny...
Chansey: B+: Stay. Still passive as fuck, still annoying to kill.
Mega Houndoom: B: Rise. Outspeeds and destroys Latis, as well as teams that rely on Lati@s to beat Char Y. A very underrated threat, but difficult to teambuild around, and regular Houndoom's speed blows.
Mega Pidgeot: C+: Stay. Hitting Hurricane is nice, but lack of coverage and lack of Regenerator sucks.
Mega Ampharos: C+: Rise. Very underrated mon, Agility set doesn't need much to sweep, not to mention that it's fairly bulky and can be used as a semi-reliable check to mons like Thundurus and Torn-T.
Infernape: C: Stay. It's a fairly niche mon with good coverage, but tons of competition from mons like Talonflame, Heatran, Mega Lopunny...
Scizor: B: Stay. Basically a poor man's Mega Scizor, it does similar things with the bulky set, just not as well. CB is also a neat set for doing massive damage to unsuspecting enemies.

I'd say nape should rise cuz defensive nape is really cool mon that can beat zard-y, bisharp, mega scizor, and weavile all in one slot, which is really really sweet for specific teams.

Cb zor is also sometimes the best check for both mega altaria and mega diancie for offensive teams, which is really valuable, as if you can't run mega metagross then you're probably gonna have a hard time effectively checking them. Also a nice pivot in general to get free switches into frail shit.

Torn-t is definitely not an A- mon, its A imo. The amount of shit AV can soft-check is absolutely fantastic for balance, and very nice in general. Yeah, hurricane misses alot, but you honestly don't use hurricane as much as I thought. I tested this thing a fair bit and 70% of the time its either just knocking off or u-turning. It's a great pivot and shud stay in A; not any higher.

Everything else I agree with.

 

[thesecondbest]

I'd say nape should rise cuz defensive nape is really cool mon that can beat zard-y, bisharp, mega scizor, and weavile all in one slot, which is really really sweet for specific teams.

Cb zor is also sometimes the best check for both mega altaria and mega diancie for offensive teams, which is really valuable, as if you can't run mega metagross then you're probably gonna have a hard time effectively checking them. Also a nice pivot in general to get free switches into frail shit.

Torn-t is definitely not an A- mon, its A imo. The amount of shit AV can soft-check is absolutely fantastic for balance, and very nice in general. Yeah, hurricane misses alot, but you honestly don't use hurricane as much as I thought. I tested this thing a fair bit and 70% of the time its either just knocking off or u-turning. It's a great pivot and shud stay in A; not any higher.

Everything else I agree with.

nape doesnt always beat zard y, what if they run air slash? But i agree with torn t in a/a+. scizor the problem is they just switch out, preserve their mega, and you always click bp/uturn. It's too predictable and bp isnt that strong anymore. i would definitely not rise it

 

[firehusky]

Except Zard Y never runs air slash because it's redundant coverage.