np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

[Ununhexium]

Why do we need to test something so bad?

The meta is great at the moment and not at all redundant in the Pokemon you see. There are a ton of viable play styles and mons like dodmen pointed out that are great and underused (seriously Stoutland is good)

 

[YABO]

Can we try something out?
Sun, rain, BL

If its bad we can ban but lets at least try

Ya forreal dude, if you're pining for something to use so badly go through the analyses for older gens and steal sets from there. For example, I made a team yesterday with Substitute Endeavor Mega Swampert and today I made a team around Calm Mind Absol. There are ways to spice up your experience aside from introducing a retest, especially when the meta is in a healthy state at the moment.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

I kinda agree and disagree with suspects right now.

On one hand, the metagame is very balanced. The only pokemon that have even been kinda spoken upon as broken is Aerodactyl (and kinda atr but that was bc hype) and theres many ways to play. Ruining such an ideal metagame is a seemingly impossible thought.

However, an established goal (iirc) of any metagame is to have the BL be as small as possible within reason isn't it? UU's BL surely isn't as small as it could be, as not all BLs are insanely overpowered. A good example of this happening is the reworking of ADV UU's Banlist that was discussed in RoA not too long ago, which significantly dropped the size iirc.

I'm personally indifferent on the subject, but it would seem making BLs small is just something tiers (if they don't, should) seek to accomplish if possible.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Well I dont think I am desperate for a change I just thought it could be fun for a day or two. I make gimick teams all the time and tried out curse restalk flareon 2 days ago. Im not bored just... spoiled i guess

 

[kokoloko]

people are BORED, good enough reason to do stupid shit with the meta imo.

that said, FREE VICTINI

 

[UU ALL DAY]

ppl are saying uu is balanced and fun, but it gets boring really quickly lol. ppl aren't accepting a power creep :(

isn't it better to retest something, ie victini, and ban it again if it's too broken rather than just bitch and moan and not even retest because we are all too busy theorymoning? sigh, i never thought i would say this but i miss koko as tier leader :[

 

[Saria]

First thing is that boredom is a really terrible reason to unban / ban anything. Wasting 3+ weeks on a "fun" suspect and vote because a small minority say they are bored is just dumb. The old system that everyone whined about could make things faster, but then you have 3/4 of the playerbase complaining about not being allowed to participate, how "boring" that is, and how biased the council is.

If you really want something banned / unbanned, making multiple one line post with 0 content isn't helping you at all, that's just obnoxious. Make a decent argument and explain your reasoning, so we can actually discuss things.

Nothing has been done lately because the metagame is fairly balanced, Aerodactyl has been UU since the beginning and there haven't been many complaints about it, and the only new "suspectable" Pokemon, Feraligatr, was fairly new and it definitely isn't ruining the metagame, so we didn't want to rush things needlessly. Additionally, with Aegislash unban and tier changes around the corner, the UU metagame might look really different soon, so unbanning / banning something right now would be far from ideal.

 

[newfren]

I kinda agree and disagree with suspects right now.

On one hand, the metagame is very balanced. The only pokemon that have even been kinda spoken upon as broken is Aerodactyl (and kinda atr but that was bc hype) and theres many ways to play. Ruining such an ideal metagame is a seemingly impossible thought.

However, an established goal (iirc) of any metagame is to have the BL be as small as possible within reason isn't it? UU's BL surely isn't as small as it could be, as not all BLs are insanely overpowered. A good example of this happening is the reworking of ADV UU's Banlist that was discussed in RoA not too long ago, which significantly dropped the size iirc.

I'm personally indifferent on the subject, but it would seem making BLs small is just something tiers (if they don't, should) seek to accomplish if possible.

UU's established goal at the start of the generation was the have a balanced tier over minimizing the amount of pokemon in BL - I don't see any retests that would be acceptable with this goal.

 

[Nysyr]

Guess I'll put down a quick 2/5ths a Nickle.

I never really had a problem with Victini when he was in the meta. Psychic/Fire does have great resists to some of the more common attacking types, however is is Liable to pursuit trapping/sucker punch and rock weakness is never a good thing. The biggest problem at the time was the Life Orb mixed set, which would bop the common switch-ins. This set still had counters, and typically had a very short lifespan especially if you were facing a stall team. I think it's important to note as well that against stall having 8 PP main damage moves does not bode well like when a Suicune is switching into a V-create after a protect. GG 3/8PP.

Generally what Victini does REALLY well is absolutely destroy unprepared teams, which I find to be a great thing personally lol. Unfortunately Facing a Victini with an offensive team generally mounted to trading down mons every other turn via forcing 'Tini out after it killed something, and coming back in to revenge.

Really, if its not the Life Orb set its no problem. In that regards, if you were gonna get smashed by a Life Orb Victini set, you'd get get smashed by a NP Ape set.

 

[YABO]

Guess I'll put down a quick 2/5ths a Nickle.

I never really had a problem with Victini when he was in the meta. Psychic/Fire does have great resists to some of the more common attacking types, however is is Liable to pursuit trapping/sucker punch and rock weakness is never a good thing. The biggest problem at the time was the Life Orb mixed set, which would bop the common switch-ins. This set still had counters, and typically had a very short lifespan especially if you were facing a stall team. I think it's important to note as well that against stall having 8 PP main damage moves does not bode well like when a Suicune is switching into a V-create after a protect. GG 3/8PP.

Generally what Victini does REALLY well is absolutely destroy unprepared teams, which I find to be a great thing personally lol. Unfortunately Facing a Victini with an offensive team generally mounted to trading down mons every other turn via forcing 'Tini out after it killed something, and coming back in to revenge.

Really, if its not the Life Orb set its no problem. In that regards, if you were gonna get smashed by a Life Orb Victini set, you'd get get smashed by a NP Ape set.

Ape doesn't have base 100 defensive stats and an arguably better defensive typing.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

While I agree with Hikari on what he said, Aegi suspect will not affect us. The mon is ridiculously overcentralizing and has more of a pro ban bandwagon than it did in XY if it doesnt get banned I would be very surprised. That being said getting mandibuzz could actually be really nice for stopping offensive threats like mence and certain gatr sets through foul play and another defogger is always good. Cant wait to see how it does in UU

 

[ChinChinLives]

I'm calling it Mandibuzz will not do well because of how passive it is, A bird that gets easily beat by Heracross will not suffice.

 

[Godsend]

I'm calling it Mandibuzz will not do well because of how passive it is, A bird that gets easily beat by Heracross will not suffice.

It's a bulky pivoting defogger with reliable recovery. There are other things to beat Hera, which you'll have room for on your team with how many slots this thing can effectively fill.

 

[Patrick1088]

I'm calling it Mandibuzz will not do well because of how passive it is, A bird that gets easily beat by Heracross will not suffice.

I hate those types of bjrds, too...

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 244-288 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 420-496 (112.6 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 192-228 (48.8 - 58%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 380-448 (122.1 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Barring intimidate phys def mence, no birds can switch into Hera...

0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 460-544 (152.8 - 180.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Foul Play/BB/Roost/Defog pretty straight forward imo. At least Mandibuzz doesnt become set up fodder like Crobat against Doublade.

 

[Kink]

in general, the meta is stable. there are a few kinks that need kneading, but aside from that there's not much in terms of hasty suspect testing... which I think is a great thing.

for now, I'd say the best thing to do is post your well thought out ideas about the current state in the meta, and find time to participate in other relevant discussions like Viability Ranking, which could definitely use input from the very same voices who discuss Pokemon that won't be tested in the near future :P

 

[ChinChinLives]

I don't mean like switchin-switchin I mean like in a 1v1 mandibuzz can't beat heracross unless it runs Brave Bird, which means it can't run foul play meaning it's setup fodder to mence, gatr, etc

 

[Master B8s]

I don't mean like switchin-switchin I mean like in a 1v1 mandibuzz can't beat heracross unless it runs Brave Bird, which means it can't run foul play meaning it's setup fodder to mence, gatr, etc

To be fair, mandibuzz can get away with running BB/Foul Play/Roost/Defog. It's not that strapped for move slots, this set just makes it a little more fit to balance. It wants to run taunt/toxic/whirlwind, but it can still reliably check physical sweepers and heracross with this set, though the utility is missed.

 

[Talpr0ne]

The problem with Mandibuzz is that unlike other Flying types such as Crobat or Salamence she can't switch into CB Heracross STABs unless she hasn't taken any prior damage at all, and even then she risks that small chance of getting 2hkoed from full.

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 199-235 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not what I would call a reliable check, let alone a counter.

 

[Godsend]

The problem with Mandibuzz is that unlike other Flying types such as Crobat or Salamence she can't switch into CB Heracross STABs unless she hasn't taken any prior damage at all, and even then she risks that small chance of getting 2hkoed from full.

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 199-235 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not what I would call a reliable check, let alone a counter.

Nobody is saying it's going to counter Hera. Saying it can't do something it's not meant to, and then using that to call it bad is plain falicious.

 

[Choice Banned]

About Mandibuzz being bad due to being beaten by Hera, first of all, is untrue, as Master B8s said, it can afford to run BB, and even if it was beaten by Heracross, you shouldn't try to beat every relevant mon in the metagame, as everything has checks and counters.

 

[Patrick1088]

The problem with Mandibuzz is that unlike other Flying types such as Crobat or Salamence she can't switch into CB Heracross STABs unless she hasn't taken any prior damage at all, and even then she risks that small chance of getting 2hkoed from full.

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 199-235 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not what I would call a reliable check, let alone a counter.

You can easily run a fairy to counter Hera (it's really not that hard to counter IMO). Crobat and Mence still have to be careful of SE, so they're only checks to Hera. Hera in general is hard to switch into since it can hit hard with the appropriate move. It's more easily checked by a plethora of mons. But, if your team doesn't have a fighting resist (or reliable fighting check), then that typing will give you trouble regardless.

But, overall I think Mandibuzz will be a great mon in the meta if it drops. I think it's immunity to weather and spore moves will give it a niche that Crobat (unless you run sleep talk CB set...) and Mence can't fulfill. It's not as crippled by Knock Off (rising of Krook) as say Crobat or Mence, while it has the ability to be a dedicated Phys wall, Sp Def Wall or mixed wall. Here are some relevant calcs that are very impressive IMO;

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 190-224 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-->Mandi can use Knock Off as an option to weaken Queen significantly.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 146-172 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This only does 93.5% MAX. That second calc allows Mandi can even Roost off damage and beating Queen 1v1.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 250-296 (59.1 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 201-237 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 274-324 (64.7 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (add in LO damage and mence is pretty much done)

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 236-278 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 178-211 (57.2 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are few mons in UU that can take these boosted hits, even SE hits. Knock Off/Foul Play gives it great utility along with Defog. I think that alone will give it a viability ranking similar to Umbreon or higher, easily. Definitely better than Donphan IMO...

 

[Wanka]

You can easily run a fairy to counter Hera (it's really not that hard to counter IMO). Crobat and Mence still have to be careful of SE, so they're only checks to Hera. Hera in general is hard to switch into since it can hit hard with the appropriate move. It's more easily checked by a plethora of mons. But, if your team doesn't have a fighting resist (or reliable fighting check), then that typing will give you trouble regardless.

But, overall I think Mandibuzz will be a great mon in the meta if it drops. I think it's immunity to weather and spore moves will give it a niche that Crobat (unless you run sleep talk CB set...) and Mence can't fulfill. It's not as crippled by Knock Off (rising of Krook) as say Crobat or Mence, while it has the ability to be a dedicated Phys wall, Sp Def Wall or mixed wall. Here are some relevant calcs that are very impressive IMO;

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 190-224 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-->Mandi can use Knock Off as an option to weaken Queen significantly.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 146-172 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This only does 93.5% MAX. That second calc allows Mandi can even Roost off damage and beating Queen 1v1.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 250-296 (59.1 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 201-237 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 274-324 (64.7 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (add in LO damage and mence is pretty much done)

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 236-278 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 178-211 (57.2 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are few mons in UU that can take these boosted hits, even SE hits. Knock Off/Foul Play gives it great utility along with Defog. I think that alone will give it a viability ranking similar to Umbreon or higher, easily. Definitely better than Donphan IMO...

Dude I understand what you are saying and I do agree mandibuzz will be good if it drops but your calcs are all over the place. You have max spD calcs and max physD calcs, choose one set dog mandibuzz doesnt have 1000 evs.

 

[Patrick1088]

Dude I understand what you are saying and I do agree mandibuzz will be good if it drops but your calcs are all over the place. You have max spD calcs and max physD calcs, choose one set dog mandibuzz doesnt have 1000 evs.

Im showing how versatile it can be. Obviously i wasnt showing it can be 252/252/252. I said before in my post that it can be physicallyvdefensive, specially defensive or a mixed wall. My calcs showed how it fares versus the most powerful attackers in UU from both ends of the spectrum. The ability to split the phys and specially defensive as you wish lets it resemble a wall like P2, witbout being reliant on Eviolite for bulk.

 

[Wanka]

Im showing how versatile it can be. Obviously i wasnt showing it can be 252/252/252. I said before in my post that it can be physicallyvdefensive, specially defensive or a mixed wall. My calcs showed how it fares versus the most powerful attackers in UU from both ends of the spectrum. The ability to split the phys and specially defensive as you wish lets it resemble a wall like P2, witbout being reliant on Eviolite for bulk.

all fair points

 

[xMarth]

So finally got around to compiling some replays of praising the sun. It plays really similarly to rain in that its very match up dependent. Sun has a lot of trouble with stall and really dislikes priority. If anyone is looking for a different play style then i would definitely recommend trying Sun.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-224836043
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-228147099
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-228149174
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-228153324
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-228155040
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-228156182
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-228157448
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-228159143

Just a sample of some matches in the 1500-1600 range on the ladder.