np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

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Aegislash is pretty ridiculous imo. Its King's Shield allows him to tank stuff like EQ's from Choice Scarf Lando, Hydro Pump Specs Keldeo, etc. and then retaliate back with SB dealing a fair amount of 60% or more (and let's not forget about shadow sneak too).
The only counter that I have found so far is M-Lopunny but even she can't do much against the sub-toxic set/automotize. It has a lot of opportunities to set up and play those 50/50 games so I would vote for ban.
 

Taylor

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With M-Lopunny, you have to settle for a second move on capable of hitting Aegislash with Scrappy because you cannot afford to risk HJK into Kings Shield, dropping your attack by two stages and losing 50% of your health all for missing your target. You don't want to use Fire Punch, so I wouldn't say Lopunny, unless you specifically adjust its more common sets to suit dealing with Aegislash, is getting very far against those wielding Kings Shield.

Aegislash is a game-changer, and can win games just as impressive as it does keep you from losing. Its versatile and competitive players realize it can send certain threats down a dead-end road with no room to reverse. Its ability to switch from defense to attack and back to defense again is kind of like having two Pokemon in one team slot, without any real drawback whatsoever.

Interestingly someone did say Aegislash wraps the metagame around itself; I don't think that's the case. I just feel where the team is built around Aegislash and focusing on its biggest assets as a pivot, core, and sweeper, games usually wind down to who played their Aegislash the smartest. It's not like back in DP where everyone and their mother used Garchomp and whoever was more intelligent in playnig with their landshark, won the game. The reason I say this is because you don't feel like you have to include Aegislash in all your competitive teams. There are Mega evolutions now and a whole new array of power creeps and strategies to play with, and more to follow in the future, Aegislash unique typing and ability keeps playstyles like HO from trucking through the metagame like there's no hope to defend yourself.

So yes, it helps to run defensive Aegislash on a bulkier, more sturdy team with more thought behind the wheel. It is also underrated as a sweeper (I'm talking Weakness Policy + Swords Dance sets), so you can sweep with that high base attack/satk with satisfying results. Is it absolutely necessary to play Aegislash on every team? No, and if it were, sometimes you have to take a look back at the tier as a whole and figure out why people heavily rely on Aegislash so much
 

zbr

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not going to try and sway your opinion but i'll try to point out what i feel is wrong with these statements you've made.
Got the requirement and I'll vote for unban.
[:
I reject every single pro-ban argument that has been made. In particular:
-50/50's are never real 50/50's because most f the time it's painfully obvious when Aegi is either going to switch out or use KS rather than attacking.
wrong. it's never going to be painfully obvious unless you are the master of clairvoyance because you can't just say "aegi will always be preserved throughout the game". if aegi has done it's job, then there is also the chance that your opp chooses to sack it. either way, the 5050 is always there because of different players and their playstyles.
Remember when some people found Charizard broken because it has 2 mega evos? People have learned that all you need to do is pay attanetion to team preview to guess which one it's going to be (i.e. if the opponent has Tyranitar then it's guaranteed to be Yzard).
wrong again. zard y doesn't need ttar support. it appreciates it. zard x can easily fit onto a team with ttar as well because of both mons being flexible. also. zard x was also on the verge of getting suspected close to the end of xy but was successfully tamed down because of the impressive omnipresence of thundy-i during late xy. you can't just use team preview to your advantage anymore. team preview helps a lot but doesn't solve all our problems (otherwise we wouldn't have to deal with aegi coming back again).
Same deal applies with Aegislash and the rest of the team: if it's obvious that spooky sword is the only thing standing between a sweep and something it checks, your opponent won't risk losing it.
wrong again my fren. you are painting a picture as if the entire meta is filled with spooky swords that are made to sweep. not true. yes there are definitely certain risks involving aegislash vs counter but there is no true counter to aegi because it is capable of splashing a variety of sets on and they can be played on any archtype of teams. HO doesn't mean it has to run SD aegi. it can easily run crumbler, or even sub tox aegi and even then it will still put in work for the team. the idea behind aegi is that you're forcing the game into a series of "who best plays their aegi". if that's a healthy metagame then why are we proposing to ban things when we can easily just release uber mons and let them centralise the metagame to the point where it is a series of games of "who best plays said mon"? is that a healthy metagame?
Speaking of which...
-the whole "blanket check" deal. Let me state it clearly: a pivot is a blanket check and a blanket check is a pivot. That's Aegislash's role. That's why it's being proposed for an unban to begin with. It makes a lot of things less viable? So do Rotom-W, Lando-T, Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor and the plethora of absurdly splashable pivots in the tier. Remove one of them and suddenly a bunch of stuff becomes more usable. Having a boner for Mega Gardevoir or Mega Heracross is not an excuse for not allowing Aeiglash in OU.
wrong again. aegi has no "particular" role it must fill. (i.e would be m-meta has the role of wallbreaker/sweeper and it cannot fulfill any other roles i.e subtox effectively) it is flexible and has the potential to use it's movepool/ability and typing to fulfill all sorts of roles it is given and it can do it effectively. want to run a stallbreaker? LO/Plate aegi for you. want to run stall/pivot-oriented? here's subtox. want to run sweeping set? here is SD. want to break on both ends? here's mixed. oh? so you like to be a gimmicky little boy? here is custap dbond, magrise, wp autonomize, sub 3 attacks, etc. now, we wouldn't have a problem if aegi wasn't so consistent at running all of it's sets. even the gimmicky sets are decent because it has typing to make it happen as well as the potential mind games that can be played. (remember ks is not a must on all aegi sets). next, aegi is a blanket check. sure, blanket checking is something that pivots are capable of doing. but the level of blanket checking that aegi provides is unlike any other. otherwise, like you said, we wouldn't even be testing it. the idea isn't that m-gard and m-hera are currenly less viable because of aegi (viability of other mons was never a main reason for you to consider banning/unbanning certain threats). however, keep in mind that aegi is pretty much costless in the current metagame. it not only has the potential to boost every archtype via it's support (being conscious support or unconscious support) it also turns the metagame into a series of "aegi + 2 aegi checks + 3 filler" mirror matches. remember pre-bank rotom-w? now amplify the checking ability of pre-bank wash by ten times and you get oras aegi. centralization just makes for a really bad metagame in general and going by your logic, we may as well put giratina o back in ou.
I found Aegislash to be more of an A+ thank S rank mon to be honest as ORAS is a lot more unforgiving to it than XY was.
true, which is why we don't need more threats like aegislash back in the tier who is capable of single handedly taking on a plethora of roles.
It no longer carries stall by itself because threats like Garchomp are more common and new ones like Mega Lopunny exist, it's slow and it has an extreme vulnerability to status so it's not *that* good of a pivot for balanced and HO teams (don't give me the "every pokemon hastes status" crap because plenty of OU mons like Gliscor and Celebi don't give a crap about it).
it being slow helps it a lot in its role as a pivot considering that a pivot's role is meant to absorb. sure it's vulnerable to status but that does make it bad? with m-lop it's the whole 5050 syndrome again considering sacred sword still bops m-lop.
Also, even though I admit it's subjective, it's a fun pokemon to use with so many unique traits that it never gets the chance to employ in ubers because its only good role there is being a Xerneas check. Pretty much like Kyurem-B got its chance to shine in OU after it's unban, I believe Aegislash deserves it too.
aegislash is hella fun. but does it benefit the metagame on a large scale? if our aim is to have it as "a reliable and all-round check to many of the aforementioned threats (such as Mega-Metagross, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Gardevoir and so on.), thus giving some stability to a tier that's currently heavily influenced by the match up component of the game." then putting it back into the metagame seems like a very good idea. however, this doesn't reduce the matchup component and just makes the tier even more centralising than it should be.
 
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Martin

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I reject every single pro-ban argument that has been made. In particular:
-50/50's are never real 50/50's because most f the time it's painfully obvious when Aegi is either going to switch out or use KS rather than attacking. Remember when some people found Charizard broken because it has 2 mega evos? People have learned that all you need to do is pay attanetion to team preview to guess which one it's going to be (i.e. if the opponent has Tyranitar then it's guaranteed to be Yzard). Same deal applies with Aegislash and the rest of the team: if it's obvious that spooky sword is the only thing standing between a sweep and something it checks, your opponent won't risk losing it.
You seem to be missing the point. A Charizard being X or Y is not a 50:50, and it isn't as simple as "look at team preview to see what zard it is" because a very common strategy with Charizard is to bluff its set using the team preview, allowing you to lure out and ko/cripple things, for example luring out Raikou/Manectric who are expecting Y, only to have them get bopped by an EQ from X. In addition, idk where you're getting that bullsh*t that if T-Tar is on the team it is guaranteed to by Y-Zard as ZardX+Tyranitar are capable of very effectively covering one anothers checks. Aegi forces excessive 50:50s. While it is certainly not the best argument, it is certainly something that needs to be considered. Before you say "just ban KS to get rid of them then", that is still ignoring the main problem with Aegi in the first place, and that is the fact that it amplifies a lot of the stuff which is already broken/on the verge of becoming broken, making the whole intention of this suspect test null. Also, ZANBAKUResh covered the whole "it is predictable" thing for me, but if I need to I will shut the argument of Aegi being predictable down later.
Speaking of which...
-the whole "blanket check" deal. Let me state it clearly: a pivot is a blanket check and a blanket check is a pivot. That's Aegislash's role. That's why it's being proposed for an unban to begin with. It makes a lot of things less viable? So do Rotom-W, Lando-T, Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor and the plethora of absurdly splashable pivots in the tier. Remove one of them and suddenly a bunch of stuff becomes more usable. Having a boner for Mega Gardevoir or Mega Heracross is not an excuse for not allowing Aeiglash in OU.
There are two things that you don't seem to understand here. 1: Aegislash isn't necessarily going to be a pivot. If anything, it is a rather poor pivot due to its lack of a VoltTurning move, meaning that it can't score momentum with a slow Volt Switch/U-turn or heal with Regenerator. Aegislash can fill a large number of roles from a wallbreaker to a stallbreaker to a staller to a sweeper (assuming max speed). However, a pivot is easily one of its weaker roles. 2: A pivot is not a blanket check, and it makes me lol to think about where you got that bull from. A pivot is something which you can use to gain momentum or to lure out a move to get a safe switch into something else. These tend to work best if they have some kind of way of maintaining momentum by voltturning, allowing them to have a backup plan if your opponent doesn't do what you expected them to do, and they need some kind of reliable recovery to function effectively. Aegislash has neither of them. It just checks a handful of A+/S rank mons and cripples the vast majority of A- downwards. Not only does this reduce diversity, but it isn't even checking the right things. It is just amplifying the already broken sh*t like Landorus. I don't see what you seem to have in your head, but you need to get whatever it is out of it because whatever it is isn't what either a pivot or Aegislash is.
I found Aegislash to be more of an A+ thank S rank mon to be honest as ORAS is a lot more unforgiving to it than XY was. It no longer carries stall by itself because threats like Garchomp are more common and new ones like Mega Lopunny exist, it's slow and it has an extreme vulnerability to status so it's not *that* good of a pivot for balanced and HO teams (don't give me the "every pokemon hastes status" crap because plenty of OU mons like Gliscor and Celebi don't give a crap about it).
Um.... what? Firstly, Aegislash is still an easy S rank 'mon because you are effectively at a disadvantage if you don't use it simply due to how splashable and versatile it is. In addition, it can still carry stall itself as SubToxic is still as ridiculous as it was in XY. While not every pokemon hates status, the fact is that the vast majority do, and idk where you got the idea that Celebi doesn't give a f*ck about it as status is a great way of forcing it to switch, which it does not want to do a lot of the time due to its vulnerability to common moves like U-Turn, Knock Off, Ice Beam and Fire Blast. The fact of the matter is this: using a vulnerability to status as an argument for keeping Aegislash shows just how little you understand what the f*ck the problem with the sword is and how little you understand the effect of staus on the vast majority of pokemon.
Also, even though I admit it's subjective, it's a fun pokemon to use with so many unique traits that it never gets the chance to employ in ubers because its only good role there is being a Xerneas check. Pretty much like Kyurem-B got its chance to shine in OU after it's unban, I believe Aegislash deserves it too.
WHAT THE F*CK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH OU??? Something being complete garbage in ubers is really not an excuse for putting it down. The reason KyuB was suspected for OU back in gen 5 was because its physical movepool was atrocious to the point of leaving it well balanced in OU. Also the fact that you feel that Aegislash "deserves a chance to shine" is completely ignorant of the fact that it has already had its chance to shine in OU, and it has proved itself too overcentralising and that it is counterproductive to a balanced metagame simply due to it amplifying the stuff that is already unhealthy while crippling an insane number of slightly more niche pokemon and crippling the vast majority of other glues that exist.[/quote]
 

napty

Banned deucer.
I almost got the 2700COIL required and I will vote for the unban.

This thing isn't broken at all. People who say it is broken are just using their old team in the OU suspect ladder, including their EQless Metagross, their Shadowballless Gardevoir or their EQless Heracross. But hell, if they would use a team which would fit to this metagame, they would see that Aegislash isn't that big of an issue. If Garchomp was banned from OU and suddenly retested, people would say it is broken while they would just need to put Ice Punch on this and Ice Punch on that. That's the same with Aegislash. Like QueenOfHax said, "So do Rotom-W, Lando-T, Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor and the plethora of absurdly splashable pivots in the tier. Remove one of them and suddenly a bunch of stuff becomes more usable."

The Aegislash metagame is by far funnier than the boring previous one. You guys should play (with a team built for this meta) rather than staying here debating about how your team are not prepared for it. And you would see that Aegislash is actually far from being broken.
 

MZ

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I almost got the 2700COIL required and I will vote for the unban.

This thing isn't broken at all. People who say it is broken are just using their old team in the OU suspect ladder, including their EQless Metagross, their Shadowballless Gardevoir or their EQless Heracross. But hell, if they would use a team which would fit to this metagame, they would see that Aegislash isn't that big of an issue. If Garchomp was banned from OU and suddenly retested, people would say it is broken while they would just need to put Ice Punch on this and Ice Punch on that. That's the same with Aegislash. Like QueenOfHax said, "So do Rotom-W, Lando-T, Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor and the plethora of absurdly splashable pivots in the tier. Remove one of them and suddenly a bunch of stuff becomes more usable."

The Aegislash metagame is by far funnier than the boring previous one. You guys should play (with a team built for this meta) rather than staying here debating about how your team are not prepared for it. And you would see that Aegislash is actually far from being broken.
Actually nobody is saying it's broken. They're saying it's overcentralizing, far too splashable, can have a wide variety of drawback free sets, and has can be thrown on any and every team, plus that it doesn't check the broken things as much as the things that make the meta healthy. And lmao rotom and Gliscor and those guys aren't nearly as splashable or effective or versatile
 
Eh, I wouldn't say rotom and gliscor aren't as versatile or splashable. Gliscor does has the opportunity cost of synergizing poorly with lando and garchomp, two defensive and offensive pokemon teams really enjoy having, but he is still capable of running multiple sets, such as sub staller, baton pass, protect, knock off, etc. while also being a literal pain to take down if he's saved for the late game and his checks are gone.

Rotom's shenanigans are pretty versatile too. While I was on the lower ladder my stall team pretty much lost to a trick scarf rotom wash that also had will-o-wisp on the same set. He doesn't really have too many counters since volt switch is a thing and nothing wants to take a will-o-wisp since the only pokemon capable of taking it are pink blobs, magic guard, and fire types.. the formers surprised by trick scarf (which I know isn't a normal thing on the ladder..) and the later incapable of taking hydro pump. He just lacks recovery and a good offensive movepool. Chesto resto can be annoying and unexpected too, and the random thunder waves I've had certainly weren't pleasant either (thunder wave rotom isn't that uncommon in the 1300-1400 elo IME...)

I guess you could say they're not as devastating and versatile in a utility aspect, but there is no denying stuff that is splashable, like heatran, if it left the OU tier it would have just as big of an impact as removing aegislash, with talonflame, volcarona, serperior, InsertAnyFireTypeAndFairyForcedToRunGroundAndFightingCoverageHere becoming much more dominant than they already are.

To add to MikeDawg's post, Wide Guard only works for the turn that it is in effect, making it effectively a worse Protect.
But unlike king's shield and protect, it's spammable and can be used without a chance of fail. You can literally PP stall choice locked EQ users.
 
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Freeroamer

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I almost got the 2700COIL required and I will vote for the unban.

This thing isn't broken at all. People who say it is broken are just using their old team in the OU suspect ladder, including their EQless Metagross, their Shadowballless Gardevoir or their EQless Heracross. But hell, if they would use a team which would fit to this metagame, they would see that Aegislash isn't that big of an issue. If Garchomp was banned from OU and suddenly retested, people would say it is broken while they would just need to put Ice Punch on this and Ice Punch on that. That's the same with Aegislash. Like QueenOfHax said, "So do Rotom-W, Lando-T, Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor and the plethora of absurdly splashable pivots in the tier. Remove one of them and suddenly a bunch of stuff becomes more usable."

The Aegislash metagame is by far funnier than the boring previous one. You guys should play (with a team built for this meta) rather than staying here debating about how your team are not prepared for it. And you would see that Aegislash is actually far from being broken.
This blanket check comparison is getting out of hand. First things first, Aegislash is much much more splashable than any of the checks you've mentioned thanks to its incredible variety of sets and roles, allowing it to fit in almost any playstyle or team with ease, and in many cases, the team would simply be an inferior build if it didn't use Aegislash, because of how much it brings. The majority of checks you mentioned only really fit on balanced teams, as they are either not durable enough to fit on stall or slow the team down on offense, allowing the opponent to regain control.

Secondly, those blanket checks you've mentioned don't make pokemon unviable in the way Aegi does, for example 4 of the checks you used in your argument check Garchomp, is it unusable? I think not. Whereas things that simply don't have a way to get past Aegislash or are forced to drop a significant part of their moveset and therefore declining their niche become inferior choices in every way to the point where they are absolutely not worth using, because right from the teambuilder you're putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage by using them. It literally warps the metagame around itself in deciding what's hot and what's not, a great example of this is the rise of Mega Lopunny. It was already a strong OU threat, but now thanks to the fact it can beat Aegislash better than most, and a lot of its checks are considered unviable(consider bulky Psychics and Fairies) thanks to guess who, it's frankly incredible in this metagame and if Aegi stays, I would think it'd certainly be the first suspect of that metagame, already it's been called broken in this thread by notable posters.

Lastly, to finish off this blanket check comparison, those checks you've mentioned have nowhere near the unpredictability Aegislash does, to the point where it has very few true counters. Lando-T will almost always be answered by Slowbro and Skarm for example, Rotom-W will struggle to achieve much vs teams with bulky Grass types such as Venusaur and Celebi, Heatran intensely dislikes Water types like Starmie and Keldeo etc. etc. Yeah some of these mons might have ways around them(Power Herb Tran for example) but it's usually at significant cost to their overall utility and what they bring to a team that it's rare. Aegi doesn't have either of these issues, until you've completely scouted out the set or seen a defining move(Swords Dance for example) you have no idea how you're going to deal with it without potentially sacrificing team members. The best part is, thanks to how incredible Ghost STAB is, Aegislash is often very customisable to its teams needs and capable of doing huge work even if the intended targets of its coverage don't turn up. The comparison between Aegislash and other blanket checks of the tier are shaky at best, honestly.
 

MZ

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Eh, I wouldn't say rotom and gliscor aren't as versatile or splashable. Gliscor does has the opportunity cost of synergizing poorly with lando and garchomp, two defensive and offensive pokemon teams really enjoy having, but he is still capable of running multiple sets, such as sub staller, baton pass, protect, knock off, etc. while also being a literal pain to take down if he's saved for the late game and his checks are gone.

Rotom's shenanigans are pretty versatile too. While I was on the lower ladder my stall team pretty much lost to a trick scarf rotom wash that also had will-o-wisp on the same set. He doesn't really have too many counters since volt switch is a thing and nothing wants to take a will-o-wisp since the only pokemon capable of taking it are pink blobs, magic guard, and fire types.. the formers surprised by trick scarf (which I know isn't a normal thing on the ladder..) and the later incapable of taking hydro pump. He just lacks recovery and a good offensive movepool. Chesto resto can be annoying and unexpected too, and the random thunder waves I've had certainly weren't pleasant either (thunder wave rotom isn't that uncommon in the 1300-1400 elo IME...)

I guess you could say they're not as devastating and versatile in a utility aspect, but there is no denying stuff that is splashable, like heatran, if it left the OU tier it would have just as big of an impact as removing aegislash, with talonflame, volcarona, serperior, InsertAnyFireTypeAndFairyForcedToRunGroundAndFightingCoverageHere becoming much more dominant than they already are.



But unlike king's shield and protect, it's spammable and can be used without a chance of fail. You can literally PP stall choice locked EQ users.
rotom and gliscor don't fit on every team archetype and they don't have a stupid amount of sets that are all good and retain the original purpose of using them (trick scarf rotom sacrifices bulk whereas fast aegislash still checks everything you want it to and is good for the same reason other sets are good)
 
But unlike king's shield and protect, it's spammable and can be used without a chance of fail. You can literally PP stall choice locked EQ users.
The point of magnet rise is not to PP stall it is to lure and catch traditional checks off guard, forcing them to either switch out or sac. It is no different in concept than magnet rise klefki, only you don't have prankster but do carry more offensive presence to force switches nonetheless.

Of course you'll still be vulnerable to other coverage moves but that is besides the point since you are more interested in ground type moves which have a better distribution and less type specific, not very many things get lava plume etc. I would say it carries more impact in tournaments or high ladder play wherein people are always looking to catch their opponent off guard with unexpected lures.
 
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I almost got the 2700COIL required and I will vote for the unban.

This thing isn't broken at all. People who say it is broken are just using their old team in the OU suspect ladder, including their EQless Metagross, their Shadowballless Gardevoir or their EQless Heracross. But hell, if they would use a team which would fit to this metagame, they would see that Aegislash isn't that big of an issue. If Garchomp was banned from OU and suddenly retested, people would say it is broken while they would just need to put Ice Punch on this and Ice Punch on that. That's the same with Aegislash. Like QueenOfHax said, "So do Rotom-W, Lando-T, Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor and the plethora of absurdly splashable pivots in the tier. Remove one of them and suddenly a bunch of stuff becomes more usable."

The Aegislash metagame is by far funnier than the boring previous one. You guys should play (with a team built for this meta) rather than staying here debating about how your team are not prepared for it. And you would see that Aegislash is actually far from being broken.
I'm not exactly a talented teambuilder or battler, so maybe I'm dead wrong here. But if people have to use teams that "fit to this metagame", when the only difference between this metagame and the "old" OU is Aegislash, then doesn't that just prove that it's overcentralizing?
 
Lol i can't believe some people compared aegis to rotom and lando. Yes there blanket checks but thats where comparisons end. Aegis not only blanket checks half the meta (more like counter) aegis through its presence alone makes 2 types unviable outside of 1 or 2 exceptions while forcing other mons to use coverage moves that are trash otherwise. something no other blanket check does. Rotom and lando also regardless of set always have some hard counters that can deal with them where as aegis can beat or atleast take chunks out of its supposed checks. Please tell me again how these pivots compare because they dont.

Aegis thanks to its typing, stats and movepool has no true counters so please stop saying it does even hard checks like lopunny, gliscor, mandibuzz and bisharp can all lose. Aegis literally wraps the meta around itself and stagnates the game. People can scream match up at me all they want but aegis is a lazy answer and making 2 types (fighters and psychics) liabilities just by existing is not healthy for the game
 
Lol i can't believe some people compared aegis to rotom and lando. Yes there blanket checks but thats where comparisons end. Aegis not only blanket checks half the meta (more like counter) aegis through its presence alone makes 2 types unviable outside of 1 or 2 exceptions while forcing other mons to use coverage moves that are trash otherwise. something no other blanket check does. Rotom and lando also regardless of set always have some hard counters that can deal with them where as aegis can beat or atleast take chunks out of its supposed checks. Please tell me again how these pivots compare because they dont.

Aegis thanks to its typing, stats and movepool has no true counters so please stop saying it does even hard checks like lopunny, gliscor, mandibuzz and bisharp can all lose. Aegis literally wraps the meta around itself and stagnates the game. People can scream match up at me all they want but aegis is a lazy answer and making 2 types (fighters and psychics) liabilities just by existing is not healthy for the game
I really find this as over exaggerating the overcentralization. There is no evidence on the suspect ladder that psychics become unviable in OU due to aegislash's presence in the metagame (lmao, aegi counters everything with access to shadow ball, status, and knock off?). Saying they're completely unusable is like saying volcarona is completely unusable because heatran and talonflame exist. Gardevoir is useless cause scizor exist. Chansey and blissey are completely unviable because gothitelle exist. Charizard X is completely unviable because heatran forces it to run EQ. This is all simply theorymoning and untrue on the suspect ladder that aegislash is overcentralizing when the evidence suggest it is not other than the few similar looking teams on the upper ladder (which HO teams were similar looking anyway with metagross). Latias and latios have a harder time doing their roles as defoggers, but their jobs are still being done, and latias can come out late game were a healing wish is needed. Pursuit support for zard Y I'm still not convinced with tyranitar and bisharp being far better in this role while also supporting a team with hazards. The ONLY change in this metagame is lopunny becoming more potent than before due to the synergy aegislash teams lack to handle the bunny, but personally I just find this as an opportunity cost to using aegislash, and will eventually make players be more careful with team building with aegislash.

Having no true counters doesn't mean broken or overcentralizing either. Does lando-T have counters when it can run double setup and u-turn out? Or how about heatran which can run air balloon, scarf, lures like powerherb solarbeam, and cripple sweepers like keldeo with toxic? Rotom isn't like aegislash, end of story, we realized that, the only point I was addressing was that rotom is less predictable and more slappable on a team than somebody pointed out, being capable of crippling teams with unorthodox sets like random trick-scarf or thunder wave.
 
not sure weather you actually read what i typed but I'll bite

im not over-exadurating the disappearance of types. It happened in XY with the disapprence of every psychic bar gothitelle and is again happening now with lopunnies dominance in suspect ladder proving me right. People are even starting to call for her to be suspected and you know why. Because aegis again make her checks fairies, psychics and prioty using fighting types into liabilities. At the preview screen and can allow aegis to freely switch in everytime pretty much letting lopunny have free reign. Lopunny is a pokemon nobody in there right mind would ask to be suspected were it not for aegisslash.

Need another example Lando I its checks are basically limited to psychics whom are again forced out of the game by aegis. See a trend? Are we gonna suspect every pokemon aegis makes better just to balance the sword? again it proves just how centralising it is and i refuse to go down such a path just to fix supposed match up issues.

No other pivot or blanket check in the game does what aegis can do and again lando, talon, rotom are all poor comparisons because each have hard counters and lose something if they try to beat them hence they lack the meta warping properties of the sword. I'll make it simple gardevoir is never forced to take hp rock to beat talonflame but loses automatically to aegis if it lacks shadowball even if your team has a hard check because aegis will just switch in for free everytime otherwise and fire off an attack. See the difference in pivoting prowess yet?

Anyway im going out now so its my last post on this for day.
 

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I'm not exactly a talented teambuilder or battler, so maybe I'm dead wrong here. But if people have to use teams that "fit to this metagame", when the only difference between this metagame and the "old" OU is Aegislash, then doesn't that just prove that it's overcentralizing?
The metagame is supposed to evolve. We can't say adapting to aegi/ is bad. Like napty says, "If Garchomp was banned from OU and suddenly retested, people would say it is broken while they would just need to put Ice Punch on this and Ice Punch on that." The metagame adapts to what's in it. If we ban diancie and then bring it back, people will say "oh, now all teams need a scizor or ferro, and it can start running hp fire omg how de we beat this thing it's so hard to switch into ;(" Except aegi/ isnt as threatening because it's slower (although granted, diance is a mega)
im not over-exadurating the disappearance of types. It happened in XY with the disapprence of every psychic bar gothitelle and is again happening now with lopunnies dominance in suspect ladder proving me right. People are even starting to call for her to be suspected and you know why. Because aegis again make her checks fairies, psychics and prioty using fighting types into liabilities. At the preview screen and can allow aegis to freely switch in everytime pretty much letting lopunny have free reign. Lopunny is a pokemon nobody in there right mind would ask to be suspected were it not for aegisslash.

Need another example Lando I its checks are basically limited to psychics whom are again forced out of the game by aegis. See a trend? Are we gonna suspect every pokemon aegis makes better just to balance the sword? again it proves just how centralising it is and i refuse to go down such a path just to fix supposed match up issues.

No other pivot or blanket check in the game does what aegis can do and again lando, talon, rotom are all poor comparisons because each have hard counters and lose something if they try to beat them hence they lack the meta warping properties of the sword. I'll make it simple gardevoir is never forced to take hp rock to beat talonflame but loses automatically to aegis if it lacks shadowball even if your team has a hard check because aegis will just switch in for free everytime otherwise and fire off an attack. See the difference in pivoting prowess yet?
Wow, psychics disappear because people use lopunny? dang, thats genius. Also loppuny is so overrated, it doesnt necessarily beat aegi/ unless it has encore. otherwise you get the minus 2 or switch out on aegi/ neither of which sounds too nice. And people aren't going to stay in again and take the -2 hjk. No, your opponent can switch. So loppuny doesn't even beat aegi/ without encore. so this is a really stupid argument.

If lando's check are limited to psychics you can run knock off. Lando is threateing without aegi/ support, and bisharp is a better pursuit trapper overall. People are crying out for a lando suspect regardless, it has nothing to do with aegi/.

lando has no hard counters besides cresselia, talon can set up easily and can beat its supposed counters with natural gift op. Rotom has so many different sets it can run. All of these are just as threatening as aegi/ is. and your last sentence doesnt make much sense. No gards run hp rock, but many run shadow ball, not just to beat aegi/ but because they tend to have an extra moveslot regardless. and why can talonflame not fire off an attack in that scenario? talon even gets u turn, making the role of a pivot easier to fill. See the flaws in your arguments yet?

This blanket check comparison is getting out of hand. First things first, Aegislash is much much more splashable than any of the checks you've mentioned thanks to its incredible variety of sets and roles, allowing it to fit in almost any playstyle or team with ease, and in many cases, the team would simply be an inferior build if it didn't use Aegislash, because of how much it brings. The majority of checks you mentioned only really fit on balanced teams, as they are either not durable enough to fit on stall or slow the team down on offense, allowing the opponent to regain control.

Secondly, those blanket checks you've mentioned don't make pokemon unviable in the way Aegi does, for example 4 of the checks you used in your argument check Garchomp, is it unusable? I think not. Whereas things that simply don't have a way to get past Aegislash or are forced to drop a significant part of their moveset and therefore declining their niche become inferior choices in every way to the point where they are absolutely not worth using, because right from the teambuilder you're putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage by using them. It literally warps the metagame around itself in deciding what's hot and what's not, a great example of this is the rise of Mega Lopunny. It was already a strong OU threat, but now thanks to the fact it can beat Aegislash better than most, and a lot of its checks are considered unviable(consider bulky Psychics and Fairies) thanks to guess who, it's frankly incredible in this metagame and if Aegi stays, I would think it'd certainly be the first suspect of that metagame, already it's been called broken in this thread by notable posters.

Lastly, to finish off this blanket check comparison, those checks you've mentioned have nowhere near the unpredictability Aegislash does, to the point where it has very few true counters. Lando-T will almost always be answered by Slowbro and Skarm for example, Rotom-W will struggle to achieve much vs teams with bulky Grass types such as Venusaur and Celebi, Heatran intensely dislikes Water types like Starmie and Keldeo etc. etc. Yeah some of these mons might have ways around them(Power Herb Tran for example) but it's usually at significant cost to their overall utility and what they bring to a team that it's rare. Aegi doesn't have either of these issues, until you've completely scouted out the set or seen a defining move(Swords Dance for example) you have no idea how you're going to deal with it without potentially sacrificing team members. The best part is, thanks to how incredible Ghost STAB is, Aegislash is often very customisable to its teams needs and capable of doing huge work even if the intended targets of its coverage don't turn up. The comparison between Aegislash and other blanket checks of the tier are shaky at best, honestly.
i already talked about why loppuny is not broken, but let's see why fairies and psychics are still usable.
Oh, that's right. You can switch out on aegi/. GENIUS! You say how chomp is still usable in the current tier, well psychics and fairies will still be good in the aegi/ metagame. You give no reasoning as to why they wont.
Rotom, lando, clef, tran, and gliscor all have so many roles. Want me to list them? Clefable and gliscor in particular have a shit ton of viable sets, and even heatran can run stuff like magma trapper or spdef. Does that make it broken? aegi/ can run similar sets to heatran, and i think that is a great comparison. Neither one is broken. So you rejecting that comparison doesn't have much ground, but I've rambled long enough regardless.
 

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The metagame is supposed to evolve. We can't say adapting to aegi/ is bad. Like napty says, "If Garchomp was banned from OU and suddenly retested, people would say it is broken while they would just need to put Ice Punch on this and Ice Punch on that." The metagame adapts to what's in it. If we ban diancie and then bring it back, people will say "oh, now all teams need a scizor or ferro, and it can start running hp fire omg how de we beat this thing it's so hard to switch into ;(" Except aegi/ isnt as threatening because it's slower (although granted, diance is a mega)

Wow, psychics disappear because people use lopunny? dang, thats genius. Also loppuny is so overrated, it doesnt necessarily beat aegi/ unless it has encore. otherwise you get the minus 2 or switch out on aegi/ neither of which sounds too nice. And people aren't going to stay in again and take the -2 hjk. No, your opponent can switch. So loppuny doesn't even beat aegi/ without encore. so this is a really stupid argument.

If lando's check are limited to psychics you can run knock off. Lando is threateing without aegi/ support, and bisharp is a better pursuit trapper overall. People are crying out for a lando suspect regardless, it has nothing to do with aegi/.

lando has no hard counters besides cresselia, talon can set up easily and can beat its supposed counters with natural gift op. Rotom has so many different sets it can run. All of these are just as threatening as aegi/ is. and your last sentence doesnt make much sense. No gards run hp rock, but many run shadow ball, not just to beat aegi/ but because they tend to have an extra moveslot regardless. and why can talonflame not fire off an attack in that scenario? talon even gets u turn, making the role of a pivot easier to fill. See the flaws in your arguments yet?


i already talked about why loppuny is not broken, but let's see why fairies and psychics are still usable.
Oh, that's right. You can switch out on aegi/. GENIUS! You say how chomp is still usable in the current tier, well psychics and fairies will still be good in the aegi/ metagame. You give no reasoning as to why they wont.
Rotom, lando, clef, tran, and gliscor all have so many roles. Want me to list them? Clefable and gliscor in particular have a shit ton of viable sets, and even heatran can run stuff like magma trapper or spdef. Does that make it broken? aegi/ can run similar sets to heatran, and i think that is a great comparison. Neither one is broken. So you rejecting that comparison doesn't have much ground, but I've rambled long enough regardless.
But people aren't too worried about giving the likes of Rotom and Lando-T free turns by switching out of them, in comparison to Aegislash(which was the basis to my post). If you look at the last paragraph, I detail exactly why you wouldn't want pokemon Aegislash can come in for free on, because it's literally impossible to switch into until you know the whole set, such is it's capacity for running lures. Now I'd never say you must run a team full of pokemon that Aegi can't come in on, but the viability of pokemon it does beat 1v1 or have favourable switchins against have drastically declined, I'm sure you would agree. I could go even further and say as a bulky Psychic type, you're very liable to being Pursuit trapped by Aegi, meaning even switching out is a fruitless endeavour. It's this decline in viability for these pokemon that have helped Lopunny become the threat it is right now, because it simply feasts on the common builds of teams trying to cope with Aegislash in addition with the rest of the metagame, but there are very very few pokemon that can deal with this combination, such is the way that they destroy each other's checks. There are slight similarities some of these pokemon might share, but anyone with an understanding of using and playing against Aegislash can see that as a whole package, it's simply not comparable to these other blanket checks.
 
Wow, psychics disappear because people use lopunny? dang, thats genius. Also loppuny is so overrated, it doesnt necessarily beat aegi/ unless it has encore. otherwise you get the minus 2 or switch out on aegi/ neither of which sounds too nice. And people aren't going to stay in again and take the -2 hjk. No, your opponent can switch. So loppuny doesn't even beat aegi/ without encore. so this is a really stupid argument.
Going to assume you meant People use Lopunny because Psychics disappear with Aegislash around. And the problem isn't just whether or not Lpunny checks Aegislash, it's the fact that with Aegislash around to either beat or just force out her checks, Lopunny runs trains over everything else, hence the talks of "Aegislash + 2 Aegi Checks + 3 filler" team template, with Lopunny being under filler and still offering a soft Aegi check.

If lando's check are limited to psychics you can run knock off. Lando is threateing without aegi/ support, and bisharp is a better pursuit trapper overall. People are crying out for a lando suspect regardless, it has nothing to do with aegi/.
Running Knock Off means Lando doesn't have the 3-move coverage he needs to pull off his boosting (RP/CM sets). And if Landorus is already dangerous enough to consider suspecting him, why not do that before bringing down something that creates a clearly mutual beneficial partnership that can break teams so easily.

And yes, Bisharp might be better as a Pursuit trapper, depending on how you define better in said context, but Aegislash does a whole lot else (defensive synergy, wallbreaking with his STABs) on top of still being a sufficient Pursuit trapper. By your logic, why would I run Skarmory when Hippowdon takes hits better as a tank (Physical or Mixed)? Because Skarmory offers other things that can make it fit better on my team, and in Aegislash's case, he fits better on almost any team than a substitute.

lando has no hard counters besides cresselia, talon can set up easily and can beat its supposed counters with natural gift op. Rotom has so many different sets it can run. All of these are just as threatening as aegi/ is. and your last sentence doesnt make much sense. No gards run hp rock, but many run shadow ball, not just to beat aegi/ but because they tend to have an extra moveslot regardless. and why can talonflame not fire off an attack in that scenario? talon even gets u turn, making the role of a pivot easier to fill. See the flaws in your arguments yet?
- You yourself just said Landorus has no hard counters, so not sure why you suddenly are using it as a sarcastic example against the Pro-Ban side.
- Talonflame still has a decent number of hard stops, and Natural Gift sets tend to be Lures since losing both its item and a moveslot is a notable hit to Talonflame's effectiveness against the Metagame on the whole.
- Exactly how many sets does Rotom have? I only know Phys, SpD, and Trick Scarf. And unlike Aegislash, who checks most of the same things and just puts in active work differently, a Scarf Rotom-W isn't going to check most of the things Phys Defensive Rotom-W checks.

Barring that, not sure where you get that all 3 of these are "as threatening as Aegi is", considering, for starters, you can't even throw them onto any team archetype and just expect them to work regardless of set (Landorus-I is outclassed defensively by Therian, Talonflame can't quite have utility and offensive presence at the same time, and Rotom is way too slow for offense). Aegislash goes on a team, it WILL put in work, it's just a matter of how you want it to.

Gardevoir doesn't run HP Rock because she's a Wallbreaker, and Talonflame is not a wall, so beating him ain't her job. However, being unable to beat a powerful defensive mon in a core IS something a Wallbreaker needs to be ready to do, hence Shadow Ball. And please explain to me what the hell Gardevoir is running Shadow Ball for besides Aegislash? Just because she has the free moveslot doesn't mean that it's put to good use for Shadow Ball over Taunt or WoW for the couple stall mons she can't just break through manually. Ghost isn't particularly good coverage because, like Dragon, it doesn't hit many types for SE damage, hence why you mostly see it as a STAB option because STAB power means you can afford neutral damage. There's one or two exceptions, like Alakazam, but that's because he can't break opposing Psychic types, which Gardevoir has little trouble with using Pixilate Hyper Voice. She is giving up that moveslot that covers literally nothing more for her besides Aegislash. At the very least Ground coverage in EQ for most Pokemon hits their STAB resists super-effectively.

Pivoting also requires Talonflame to take a hit coming in and be able to pressure the opponent into switching out. While he can do the former, the latter isn't easy with meh Bulk and a SR weakness. Come back to me when Talonflame has 60/150/150 bulk and 13 resists/immunities to go with that U-Turn.

Not seeing the flaws in their argument, but seeing them in yours.

i already talked about why loppuny is not broken, but let's see why fairies and psychics are still usable.
Oh, that's right. You can switch out on aegi/. GENIUS! You say how chomp is still usable in the current tier, well psychics and fairies will still be good in the aegi/ metagame. You give no reasoning as to why they wont.
Congratulations, you saved your Fairy/Psychic by switching. Nevermind that

A) Forcing them to switch is probably what Aegislash was trying to accomplish
B) Aegislash has a free turn to either Shadow Ball, boost on SD, put up a Sub, Toxic the switch in, etc.

The reason Aegislash eradicates Fairies and Psychics from the ladder isn't solely for killing them, but because in trying to switch them out, he gets a free turn, something you do not want to give to a mon that Versatile and powerful.

Rotom, lando, clef, tran, and gliscor all have so many roles. Want me to list them? Clefable and gliscor in particular have a shit ton of viable sets, and even heatran can run stuff like magma trapper or spdef. Does that make it broken? aegi/ can run similar sets to heatran, and i think that is a great comparison. Neither one is broken. So you rejecting that comparison doesn't have much ground, but I've rambled long enough regardless.
Clefable and Gliscor run different sets, but they don't ultimately change their role/effectiveness too significantly: Clefable still lacks offensive presence without boosting: whether it's Magic Guard or Unaware, or Cleric, it's not hitting too hard naturally. Gliscor is a tank and Stallbreaker, but retains vulnerability to powerful special attackers even on the special sets and just a bit of moveslot trouble with coverage on the SD set.

Heatran has roles, but similarly almost always has his own issues, namely his speed, decent number of weaknesses for his resistances, lack of recovery, and ultimate inability to break somethings like Bulky Waters without using very specific sets like Power Herb Solarbeam. Most of the traits I listed apply to Aegislash, except the last one: Aegislash's multiple sets let it beat more things, but it already handles a ridiculous number of Pokemon just by virtue of being Aegislash.
 
pika pal to be fair some of the coverage to hit aegis is also used to hit jirachi and metagross. For example shadowball on sylveon and gardevoir. Or EQ on terrakion or MegaPinsir, but overall your points still stand.
Indeed, some Pokemon run these options already for certain things, but lacking them makes less effective against these opponent, rather than outright ineffective.

For example, Terrakion hits Metagross a bit harder with Earthquake, but CC hits 180 BP thanks to STAB, so only slightly weaker and usually still managing the 2HKO. Pinsir tends to be a SD booster anyway, and while less dangerous, Close Combat still does decent damage to Gross, if not exactly force out levels.
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 105-124 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Sylveon is a bit of a different case than Gardevoir. Sylveon's wallbreaker sets are usually picking Hyper Voice the majority of the time, so its coverage is only for things that don't take massive damage from its main STAB. Gardevoir achieves almost perfect coverage using Hyper Voice/Psyshock/Focus Blast, and has good utility options for the 4th set over Shadow Ball, whereas Sylveon doesn't have much to use that slot for anyway.

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 123-145 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 169-199 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's still more damage than Metagross ideally wants on the switch.

Jirachi is chosen specifically because Gardevoir is countered, and ironically enough it's lack of extreme influence is a benefit because Gardevoir won't usually want to give up Utility for Jirachi, who is rarer than Aegislash on the whole.
 
Talonflame and Rotom aren't near the same level as Aegislash, what are you on about?
First of all:

Having no true counters doesn't mean broken or overcentralizing either. Does lando-T have counters when it can run double setup and u-turn out? Or how about heatran which can run air balloon, scarf, lures like powerherb solarbeam, and cripple sweepers like keldeo with toxic? Rotom isn't like aegislash, end of story, we realized that, the only point I was addressing was that rotom is less predictable and more slappable on a team than somebody pointed out, being capable of crippling teams with unorthodox sets like random trick-scarf or thunder wave.
Second of all: When did I say talonflame is like aegislash? Like really.. when? I said talonflame is checked entirely by heatran, that is all.

Talonflame=hawlucha
Heatran=aegislash

Hawlucha is checked by aegislash the same way talonflame is checked if not hard countered by heatran.. people are basically saying hawlucha will be completely unusable with aegislash's presence, when it's checked just as hard as talonflame is to heatran, and that doesn't make talonflame suddenly unusable either.
 
To be honest I think this suspect could go either way because Aegi is breathing life into the OU metagame,but I've already seen how this thing plays in ORAS OU.Although I think Mega Alt and Meta finally recieved the check they so greatly needed,I believe Aegi isn't the answer like the drugs that come with few pros but a long list of cons that will end up causing more harm than good in an unsolvable OU meta. Megas like Mega Gallade,Gardevoir,and Mega Slowbro will be overshadowed.

Aegislash has seemingly already caused a large shift in the usage of pokemon,seeing more of Char Y and Diggersby. People are literally running counter-teams to stop one pokemon. This has to prove Aegislash shouldn't belong back into a metagame where it was so feared and broken. If Aegislash was to return I would the expect the OU metagame to decline even more so then it had with the unbalanced meta ORAS as supplied.BAN
 
First of all:



Second of all: When did I say talonflame is like aegislash? Like really.. when? I said talonflame is checked entirely by heatran, that is all.

Talonflame=hawlucha
Heatran=aegislash

Hawlucha is checked by aegislash the same way talonflame is checked if not hard countered by heatran.. people are basically saying hawlucha will be completely unusable with aegislash's presence, when it's checked just as hard as talonflame is to heatran, and that doesn't make talonflame suddenly unusable either.
The difference between heatran and aegi is that heatran doesn't overcentralize the metagame and can't fit on to any team. Aegislash on the contrary can and does.
 
The difference between heatran and aegi is that heatran doesn't overcentralize the metagame and can't fit on to any team. Aegislash on the contrary can and does.
Not quite. Heatran actually does fit into a wide variety of teams and playstyles and does centralize the metagame to an extent. HOWEVER, Heatran actually has hard counters. Things like bulky waters, Keldeo, EQ zard-x, Gliscor, most other EQ and fighting STAB users (barring lava plume burn), Zard-Y, Conkeldurr, EQ Megasaur, and certain sets of the lati twins can easily swap into heatran and threaten it out.

Now how many things can swap into aegi and threaten him out period, let alone easily? I've seen mandi, mega pidgot, m-zard-y, and maybe bisharp and m-lop if you're lucky.
 

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Not quite. Heatran actually does fit into a wide variety of teams and playstyles and does centralize the metagame to an extent. HOWEVER, Heatran actually has hard counters. Things like bulky waters, Keldeo, EQ zard-x, Gliscor, most other EQ and fighting STAB users (barring lava plume burn), Zard-Y, Conkeldurr, EQ Megasaur, and certain sets of the lati twins can easily swap into heatran and threaten it out.

Now how many things can swap into aegi and threaten him out period, let alone easily? I've seen mandi, mega pidgot, m-zard-y, and maybe bisharp and m-lop if you're lucky.
Adding onto that, none of those are even counters, as Sacred Sword and head smash can bop those on the switchin (head smash is surprisingly good). Like, the closest you have to a counter is probably spdef Gliscor I believe, although air balloon SD is an issue
 
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