Ladder Balanced Hackmons

[lordmagecar]

Hm... I know that I'm not good at team building.

First, allow me to explain some things.

Erazor's Shed Shell was because he's the main switch-in from Ovah. She Shell Smashes, Ingrains and passes the baton, leaving Erazor with the boosts, Substitute and Ingrain. Thus, he can't be forced out by Whirlwind, which is a really annoying thing to deal with.

Skipper's actually won me a match. He's surprisingly bulky, I'm sure Water Shuriken does more damage overall than Aqua Jet, and he hits like a truck. Even without boosts, he one-shot a Mega Diancie with Water Shuriken, so don't underestimate the Roid Rage Mudskipper.

I actually didn't want to put Toxic on Kyou-sama at first. I'm super-paranoid about Magic Bounce, but I felt like I needed to put something there.

Giegue is another product of Magic Bounce hatred. Since status moves get deflected, I went with Inferno and Zap Cannon. They're guaranteed to cause status afflictions, but since they're damaging moves, they can't be reflected. I couldn't think of other moves to make use of No Guard, though, not as MMY anyway.

I actually haven't seen Topsy-Turvy at all. As for Kaguya's moves... well, I have Kyou-sama, and he's the status-causer. I don't know what to put on Kaguya, since she's practically useless for offense. Anything I can think of would be redundant with Kyou-sama, and he'd be better at it.

I thought Substitute made you immune to taunting? I know it makes you immune to Mean Look. In any case, Blissey was the only Pokémon I could think of that had enough health to survive whatever the enemy's throwing at it while buffing itself. As for Ingrain, well, the first version of Ovah was constantly interrupted by Whirlwind, so I wanted to just not deal with that.

As far as I can figure, a Hackmons setup needs to look something like this: Bouncer, Sweeper, Wall, Support. I do have more questions, though.

First: Is weather at all worth it? It seems like Skipper could possibly make use of it with Aqua Jet, and Giegue with Inferno, but I really don't know.

Second: Is it even possible to be ready for everything with just six Pokémon? If Spiky Shield doesn't work, then I can't deal with Sturdinja at all. People have said Pursuit, but it seems like a waste of a move slot if it's only going to be used on one Pokémon, and I really don't like how weak Pursuit is. If I prepare for Shedinja, then I neglect other things because it's not a guarantee that the cicada shell will be on the enemy team. Case in point, I've played quite a few BH battles, and I've only faced two Shedinjas.

Third: Should I even bother trying to increase my stats? Whirlwind is all over the place, so it seems like I may as well just load up with damaging moves. It feels like a waste if I use Shell Smash and then get whirlwinded.

Weather isn't that good, only mon weather is good on is Pdon thanks to desolate land v-create.

You need to at least be prepared for the most common mons in the meta; pdon, pogre, mray, chansey, shedinja, mgar, etc.

Baton pass is a good move, but don't pass stats with it. Use it for pivoting. Whirlwind isn't that common, but imposter is. Only set up with imposterproof mons, like pogre, mgar, and hoopa-u.

 

[Rumors]

Weather is good, but it's nowhere near Gen V good, but I've run both Rain and Sand teams successfully. It's not an easy archetype to utilize in BH since building for gaining momentum is pretty much essential. Having an answer to the ORAS weather abilities is mandatory since they shut down weather teams hard, especially if they directly counter your weather (aka Desolate Lands vs a rain team). Desolate Lands and Primordial Sea are good too though, not only for covering immunities, but also for some one-off weather abusers on your team without jacking with the rest of it.

Set-up works in BH, but you can't do it willy nilly. You have to scout for checks and counters to your set-up and focus on crippling or eliminating them before setting up. This isn't a "click Shell Smash and sweep" meta, at least at higher ranks. Set-up sweeping here, IMO, is best for cleaning up. Sometimes you can get in on something you counter and use the turn for a free set-up to smash something hard, but it's rare you'll be able to set-up early in a match and do much with it.

Also, unlike lordmagecar, Baton Passing stats is a viable strategy. Unaware or Prankster + Heart Swap + Baton Pass is one of several checks to set-up sweeping. You can also build a team around Baton Pass (not easy by the way) and it'll work. I speak from experience there, having taken a Baton Pass team to tournaments and winning the matches it was in.

 

[Voyd211]

So I said "screw it" to Baton Pass and offensive stat boosts on the new team.

http://pastebin.com/AU6axNY7

Erazor: I've ditched Substitute and Stored Power. After all, his stats aren't going to go up, so may as well go offensive. That said, he does have Sacred Fire in case of Sturdinja.

Skipper: As fun as Skill Link is, I said goodbye to it. Instead, yet more raw power, with Tough Claws and a Life Orb to boost this guy's power. There's not a freak around who can eat these moves and come back for seconds.

Kyou-sama: The only difference is that I've replaced Toxic with Leech Seed. Easier to get rid of.

Giegue: And then we go into straight ridiculousness. He's now equipped with Protean, and like Erazor, he's built to blast.

Kaguya: She's the only one worth building up stats for. Thus, she's now equipped with Cosmic Power to boost her defenses and Recover to keep her health up. She's also going to be outrunning most of what she meets, and all those stat boosts fuel Stored Power.

EggBomb: Ovah's received a name change and a new focus: Hazards. Once her job is finished, she goes BOOM.

Hopefully I'm not doing anything too terribly stupid.

 

[lordmagecar]

Weather is good, but it's nowhere near Gen V good, but I've run both Rain and Sand teams successfully. It's not an easy archetype to utilize in BH since building for gaining momentum is pretty much essential. Having an answer to the ORAS weather abilities is mandatory since they shut down weather teams hard, especially if they directly counter your weather (aka Desolate Lands vs a rain team). Desolate Lands and Primordial Sea are good too though, not only for covering immunities, but also for some one-off weather abusers on your team without jacking with the rest of it.

Set-up works in BH, but you can't do it willy nilly. You have to scout for checks and counters to your set-up and focus on crippling or eliminating them before setting up. This isn't a "click Shell Smash and sweep" meta, at least at higher ranks. Set-up sweeping here, IMO, is best for cleaning up. Sometimes you can get in on something you counter and use the turn for a free set-up to smash something hard, but it's rare you'll be able to set-up early in a match and do much with it.

Also, unlike lordmagecar, Baton Passing stats is a viable strategy. Unaware or Prankster + Heart Swap + Baton Pass is one of several checks to set-up sweeping. You can also build a team around Baton Pass (not easy by the way) and it'll work. I speak from experience there, having taken a Baton Pass team to tournaments and winning the matches it was in.

Yes, but you need an entire team based around it to avoid getting destoryed by chansey. It is viable, but much better for pivoting.

 

[Rumors]

Voyd211

Hidden for neatness

You really don't need both Psystrike and Hyperspace Hole on Hoopa. I say pick one or the other.

On Swampert, Aqua Jet is kinda meh since, even with STAB, it does less damage than unboosted Extreme Speed. And actually, looking at your set, I say you might be better going for Sheer Force. That'd negate the Life Orb recoil and you could use moves like Icicle Crash, Waterfall, and Diamond Storm, increasing Swampert's damage output and longevity. Not sure if either 1k Ground move is boosted by Sheer Force.

Giratina looks fine on paper. I'd need more than a cursory glance to examine team synergy to see if it's the optimum pick, but at a glance it looks fine. Though consider maybe shifting some of your EV investment into physical for Fakespeed. It's a personal preference to be sure though.

For Mewtwo, Bolt Strike is physical, which you're not invested in, so swap it out for a special attack. Sadly, special Electric is a little lacking, but if you're trying to hit Kyogre, Seed Flare works wonders. Even with Kyo-P's special bulk, it doesn't appreciate the -2 drops. Also, if you don't mind risking an Imposter grabbing a hold of your set and acc haxing you, Night Daze over Dark Pulse. Also also, if you do care about Imposters, consider adjusting your coverage so that there's a gaping hole that keeps one of your teammates safe so they can switch in and force the Imposter out.

If you're going for an Unaware Cress sweeper, which while maybe not the best thing for Cress though it can certainly work, consider investing your defenses into physical bulk and running Quiver Dance over Stored Power + Agility. This makes you a bit vulnerable to hard hitting V-Creates, but Giratina can sponge those easily and it lets you spend a moveslot on coverage for Dark-types, such as Aura Sphere or Secret Sword, or for something to piss off Imposters.

For Blissey, Explosion is... not going to do anything. For example: (8 Atk Blissey Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 90-106 (25.4 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO) And Ytwo is pretty frail physically by BH standards. And in general, suicide hazard setters don't work in BH because of the very common presence of Defog. You set your hazards, you die, they Defog, you no longer have hazards for the rest of the match. If you want a Prankster, consider something like Recover(or your preferred clone) / Parting Shot / Topsy-Turvy / Destiny Bond. Though this means you lose hazards, but you could just plop Stealth Rocks down on Hoopa over one of its two Psychic moves and use it when you're confident the opponent will switch out.


Though I should ask, what's your goals with the team? What sort of strategy are you pursuing? Knowing those answers will help your team building a lot and help us help you make your team better.

For an example of how useful knowing those answers are, try looking at my RMT in my signature. I built that team with the goal of controlling momentum and denying it to the opponent with the general strategy of wearing the opponent down before cleaning up with a set-up sweeper once they were unable to defend against it. All of my picks reflect that strategy.

Yes, but you need an entire team based around it to avoid getting destoryed by chansey. It is viable, but much better for pivoting.

But... I do have an entire team built around it. Granted, that's an old iteration of it since I don't have any modern replays.

 

[Voyd211]

Basically, I want to hit the enemy as hard as I can before they stop me. The defensive/utility roles are there mostly because Hackmons requires you to have them or you will die horribly.

Also, either I work really really fast or people just take a long time to answer. The team's already been modified three times since my post.

http://pastebin.com/jCYguisZ

 

[rortik]

So.. I'm going to completely ignore the two ongoing arguments that we've already had a bunch of times. I'd just like to reiterate that a draw command will solve quite a bit of problems which otherwise would require drastic measures.

Now I'm going to bring up another argument: Moody. If you've played top-ladder BH, you've met this guy who uses a Moody Hoopa-U with Sub/KS and Stored Power/Hyperspace Fury. Now, it's of probably preposterous to say this is broken, yes? Well, it's not broken as such.

One, it's based on luck. Two, it's Imposter proof. Three, it's easy to abuse. All it needs is a couple of turns with the right boosts and you're losing at least half your team to it. I was able to defeat him both the time I faced him, but only because he had no Mold Breaker Pursuit. So if you remove Shedinja, Moody becomes coinflips to decide the victory of even a very good team.

Thoughts?

I've seen a few of these.

I'm not super high on the ladder, but I was watching my gf battle and she fought the guy you're speaking of. She beat him too, but the thing got a couple lucky boosts and slaughtered half her team before it was taken out.

I hate this thing for the same reason I hate chatter: It's luck based. Like you said.

Personally I think it should be banned for the same reasons chatter was.


On another note, I'm getting increasingly tired of Thousand Arrows. I'd like to know how people feel about this move. I think we have bigger problems (like Moody and endless battles), but this move is causing Primal Groudon to be nigh unwallable, bar Giratina and weird stuff like Prim Sea Ferrothorn.

 

[CactusCacti]

Basically, I want to hit the enemy as hard as I can before they stop me. The defensive/utility roles are there mostly because Hackmons requires you to have them or you will die horribly.

Also, either I work really really fast or people just take a long time to answer. The team's already been modified three times since my post.

http://pastebin.com/jCYguisZ

You're getting there!
Few tips and comments;
-Switch transform to fake out or final gambit or Lunar dance or parting shot, if your imposter did not trigger, transform isn't going to do anything either as currently your imposter cannot deal damage to dishmish substitute or illusion, with fake out you can reveal illusion mons even tho they are pretty rare nowdays, final gambit allows you to do a emergency kill foe's imposter as imposter cannot imposter impostered mons, neither can transform. Lunar dance can help you recover one of your earlier mons back to full, considering you're runing wish, parting shot also works. It's bit silly to run both, wish and soft boiled, but you can tweak it as it goes, imposter mon rarely does much outside its impostering role, so it doesn't always matter that much, it's still good to have some support chances incase of sub or foe's imposters tho.
-Considering you have magic bounce registeel and groudon now, you could consider giving giratina furcoat instead of magic bounce; This would allow it to wall your own groudon incase it gets impostered and it would give your giratina a lot more survivability and ability to fight back against some -ate users.
-MMY is pretty solid, magmastorm can be used over blue flare if you want a secondary way to nail shedinja, but this is up to your own preferences as magma storm still has less accuracy and than blue flare. You can also tweak the move set accordingly as you go, just try learn what you want to hit and what threatens your team, Currently if you're positive about your ability to predict, your mmy can deal with things pretty nicely.
-Groudon-Primal is pretty good and nails some threats like primal kyogre nicely, incase you need extra power instead of survivability, you can also try tinted lens on it(this would however have to be played more carefully and would hinder your ability to deal with kyogre so tread lightly), but this set is already pretty good as desolate land does have nice use for nailing groudons weakness. However, if you want to be a meanie, you can also run water absord as mold breakers rarely have water moves nowdays, and water absord allows you to fake tinted lens set that is common and also nail kyogres even better as they might try to use water move on you which means they get bolt striked, tho this is up to your own preferences. But if you want to make sure water moves dont ever hit you and power up the v-create, keep desolate land.

 

[lordmagecar]

Voyd211



But... I do have an entire team built around it. Granted, that's an old iteration of it since I don't have any modern replays.

What I meant is that, in voyd's old team, he only had one stat passer, and he didn't have enough support for it to be anything but a liability. I do not question the abilty of baton pass; it is very capable of defeating chansey with taunt/entrainment, subsitute, and multitype arceus.

 

[Rumors]

On another note, I'm getting increasingly tired of Thousand Arrows. I'd like to know how people feel about this move. I think we have bigger problems (like Moody and endless battles), but this move is causing Primal Groudon to be nigh unwallable, bar Giratina and weird stuff like Prim Sea Ferrothorn.

I've become less and less of a fan of 1k Arrows since ORAS gave us Pdon and its ridiculous attack stat, although the fact it also limits some otherwise viable Pokemon, like Ho-Oh, from the tier also annoys me. However, I'm doubtful it's broken enough to warrant any sort of suspect, as much as I'd like to not have it around.

What I meant is that, in voyd's old team, he only had one stat passer, and he didn't have enough support for it to be anything but a liability. I do not question the abilty of baton pass; it is very capable of defeating chansey with taunt/entrainment, subsitute, and multitype arceus.

Okay, I misunderstood you then, apologies. Though I will argue from experience that Unaware/Prankster with Heart Swap and Baton Pass is not only hilarious, but also effective and often forfeit inducing.

 

[xJownage]

Today is the day you all shall bow down to the dewgong gods. The Dewgong challenge has been completed twice.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-226351108
[url]http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-226348633[/URL]

Everyone worship Dewgong.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Today is the day you all shall bow down to the dewgong gods. The Dewgong challenge has been completed twice.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-226351108
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-226348633

Everyone worship Dewgong.

I did it too:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-226355009
He rage quit but I woulda won anyway

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Uber Long post go go go go go

In-Depth Arguments

-Pokemon Bans in BH are a very sensitive topic, and for good reason. Its usually the ability/move that breaks the mon, not the Pokemon itself. Yet i Primal-Groudon is a exception. Simply put, Primal Groudon is broken because it is a high usage threat, that can run highly versatile sets, and places an unreasonable burden on the opponent to check it. Essentially the mere presence of Primal-Groudon puts the opponent at a disadvantage at teambuilder.

-Unlike several other "borderline threats" such as Rayquaza-Mega, Primal-Groudon can break any of its "counters" with merely its two powerful STABS. V-Create/Thousand Arrows/ Precipice Blades is enough to break even Fur Coat Giratina, V-Create/Thousand Arrows alone has perfect netural coverage on the whole tier. Groudon can utilize Tinted Lens/Adaptability/Mold Breaker/Desolate Land to insane effect. Tinted Lens gives Primal Groudon a 180 BP move with no resists and no immunities barring abilities. As you can imagine, only Fur Coat Giratina/Slowbro dares switch in. Same with Adaptablity. Desolate Land patches Groudon's terrible 4x weakness, leaving it with only 1 weakness, and boosts V-Create to near Tinted Lens levels. Mold Breaker rounds out the 4 by killing Fur Coat and Shed.

-Now you may be asking, how does this make Groudon different from any other pokemon? Rayquaza can run protean/aerliate/Gale Wings and coverage to beat all all of its so called counters too! Well you are correct. But the huge difference between Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza is pretty simple, Rayquaza is busted because his abilities make him so good. Tbh protean Mega Ray is not the best abuser, its optimal abilities are Aerialate and Gale Wings. Rayquaza is utterly reliant on these abilities to give him busted priority stabs. Therefore Mega Rayquaza isn't the problem. Take away the previously mentioned abilities from Groudon and you still have a Pokemon with perfect neutral coverage in his STAB moves alone and high bulk capable of tanking all the priority revenge killing in the world.

-Groudon does have some flaws, it isn't the "perfect" or "unbeatable" pokemon. But its the closest we have ever seen to one. It has a 4x Weakness to Water, but this is easily patched by Desolate Land, which just happens to make his V-Create powerful enough to 2hko Mega Bro and Giratina. His low speed? how bout Choice Scarf. Normally Choice items are shit in bh. Name a threat and there about 99 reasons why it shouldn't run a choice item. MMx/MMy prefer to be able to hit with all of their coverage. Rayquaza is either mixed or set up. Kyogre is defensive/PH set up. Mega Gengar wants Spooky Plate etc. Granted there are some reasons to run Choice items in BH. MMy with Choice Scarf can beat Deo-A with a broken Sash if your team needs that. But the drawbacks of Choice items are Groudon are slim. Choice Scarf Adamant outspeeds Mega Mewtwo Y, and either you hit TArrows, which has zero relevant resists,(Fuck Swadloon Deathly ♛The King ), V-Create is the best move for a hit and run threat, and U-Turn gives momentum. Choice Bands put any wall your opponent may have found down very quickly. Simply put, Choice items are barely have any drawbacks to Groudon.

To Summerize my main points:
- Primal Groudon has the best Offensive typing in the game, Its STABs are the best in the game because of highest bp, or a complete lack of relevant resists.
-Primal Groudon is an extremely powerful Pokemon that already puts tremendous pressure on the metagame without abilities/items to put it over the top.
- Said abilities demolish its two counters that do not rely on abilities to counter the Don himself. (180 BP STAB move with no resists, and its draw back only forces it out against offense threats)
- Its Few flaws are patched quite well by Desolate Land and Choice Scarf.

In my opinion, the BH Community should ban Primal Groudon from the Metagame for the duration of Generation 6, for the many reasons stated above. I welcome discussion as always.

Calcs

252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-308 (52 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-309 (52 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO (SO CLOSE)
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Mega Slowbro: 97-114 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 194-228 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 410-484 (116.8 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There are other calcs, but these are the most relevant to my arguments

Bring it on Haters.

 

[E4 Flint]

I would just like to point out that the way Kingslayer has put forward his argument about his idea to ban DonPrimal is pretty much the best way to lay out the rationale behind a proposed ban. It is clear, with proper reasoning, and pretty much irrefutable evidence with the reasons clearly stated. I also know that you have actually experimented and shown results on the ladder for your claims. So kudos for writing out properly instead of just spouting baseless points or attacking people as have been done for other proposed ban ideas.

As for your content, you are right in that pokemon bans are sensitive, and I personally feel uncomfortable about banning a pokemon because it can be a slippery slope and also because it goes against Balanced Hackmons' original ideal of having few bans to get rid of all outliers and form a (relatively) balanced metagame. However, I really don't have any real counterpoint to your points other than, possibly a fur coat gira + primordial sea grass type can theoretically take on almost all groudon primals (which I don't think is even completely true because you are just limiting yourself to your main stabs as you said for one, and there are very likely other sets out there, and sacredfire/desolate/prankster/magPull can always be used, and finally as you mentioned, not many want to be forced to use swadloon along with gira). It does seem to be that PDon has a legitimate problem.

The only defense really is that, I have noticed that the effectiveness of PDon pretty much exponentially increases the more you have. It doesn't seem so hard to manage a single Don or even two, but more of a problem with scaling. Would a solution where you are limited to a single don (or species) solve your problem rather than the outright ban of a pokemon? Is that a viable solution for BH? BH has already received a lot of flak for being too limiting and I don't know if we should add another clause on for a single mon. Having said that, a "don clause", even in theory sounds a bit ridiculous but those are really the options, other than just leaving it alone, or complex banning abilities on it (which I also don't like the sound of). BH in general has opted for a more general fitting ruleset than rules for specific things (even assist, when an option for banning it only on DonPrimal only was discussed).

Also I think it is pretty clear that the problem is deeper than Thousand Arrows, so a solution that just bans thousand arrows on don, or entirely should not be considered imo.

 

[MAMP]

Speaking of, I have a core with Primal Groudon that I've been meaning to post about for a while, but never got around to:

TWAS BUT A RUSE (Groudon-Primal) @ Choice Band
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Thousand Arrows
- U-turn / Extremespeed / Anti-shed
- Trick / Extremespeed / Anti-shed

mahou shoujo (Diancie-Mega) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- U-turn / coverage / whatever

(these probably arent optimal ev's, feel free to tweak them)

Illusion Groudon is an excellent partner for Pixilate Diancie, as it is able to lure in Diancie's counters with Illusion, and almost all of them are OHKO'd by Thousand Arrows or V-Create. Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 666-786 (182.9 - 215.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 476-564 (138.3 - 163.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 820-966 (116.6 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 410-483 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Land's Wrath vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 410-486 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Land's Wrath vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 666-786 (205.5 - 242.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In addition to Groudon being able to lure and KO Diancie's counters, Diancie also puts a lot of pressure on Giratina and Chansey, two of the best answers to Groudon. Here are a few replays of the core in action:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-219303765
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-223630504

(why do i only have 2 replays of this ive been using it for months :////////)

 

[Rumors]

I'm not sure where I stand on Pdon since, as said, banning mons is a pretty touchy subject in BH. (And bans in general are anyway.) And my play time on the ladder hasn't been the highest the past couple of months. Though I can definitely see problems.

Part of it is that Primal Groudon, and a few others, are among very few 700+ BST Pokemon. Most of our Pokemon are in the 600s range, frequently 680. Meanwhile, Groudon sits at 770. Now, it's not the only one to do this, but we only have six Pokemon who break the 700 range: Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Arceus, and Mewtwo twice. (Kyurem hits 700, but that doesn't break 700.) Out of these, Mewtwos are on the frail side and have a pretty bad defensive typing in the tier thanks to Spooky Judgement and Gen VI Knock Off. Arceus's evenly distributed stats makes it sort of a jack of all trades Pokemon that doesn't really excel at any role. Plus it's Normal, which is kind of an overall eh typing outside some gimmicks, like PH Facade Gigas. Rayquaza is horribly weak to ice, which is a particularly big deal thanks to Refrigerate, and its STABs are both walled by common Steel types. Kyogre is horrendously powerful, but it's mono-Water STAB is resisted by common Dragon types and is, well, it's not bad at all defensively, but not amazing either. Groudon, meanwhile, has an excellent offensive and defensive typing, which makes it stand out a quite a bit, what having only two weaknesses, some decent resistances, and beyond fantastic STAB coverage.

That typing is also a source of the other major problem. Groudon is one of the hardest hitting physical attackers in the game, beaten only by Mega-Heracross and Mega-Mewtwo-X. And it's also a Fire-type. Why is this important? Well, ignoring STAB V-Create (and STAB Flare Blitz for a Magic Guard set), it's immune to burns. Mewtwo-X and Rayquaza-M hit incredibly hard physically, but you can just burn them and be done with it. Groudon though? Nope, you have to tank that stuff. And good physical tanks are hard to come by in this meta, especially since there isn't a physical equivalent to the Assault Vest.

Now those two are Pokemon specific, but we also have another problem Flint mentioned. Aka, Thousand Arrows. Is it the sole problem? I don't know, but if memory serves right, before 1k Arrows, Ground was just a decent attacking type in the tier. Earthquake is a fantastic move, but the Flying-type immunity kinda killed its viability hard. But these days, in comes Thousand Arrows and that immunity is gone and Ground's offensive utility skyrocketed. TA is so good that you're probably better using it over Precipice Blades, a move that's even stronger than Earthquake was (also accuracy, but that's besides the point). Heck, TA is weaker than EQ, but it's still preferred except for anti-Imposter stuff. Without TA, Groudon-P's STAB coverage is hurt considerably since Flying types become better, Levitate becomes useful again, and stuff like Flash Fire Skarmory would be immune to both STABs. Suddenly, Groudon's STABs are wallable without any risk of damage without TA.


Is that enough for me to say Pdon is broken? I don't know yet, they're just observations. Maybe it's Pdon, maybe it's 1k Arrows, maybe it's nothing.

...also, don't we have a suspect thread for this?

I would just like to point out that the way Kingslayer has put forward his argument about his idea to ban DonPrimal is pretty much the best way to lay out the rationale behind a proposed ban. It is clear, with proper reasoning, and pretty much irrefutable evidence with the reasons clearly stated. I also know that you have actually experimented and shown results on the ladder for your claims. So kudos for writing out properly instead of just spouting baseless points or attacking people as have been done for other proposed ban ideas.

Also, this.

 

[CactusCacti]

To be completely honest, my opinion on this has stayed the same ever since the assist ban;
Thousand Arrows is a extremely big key factor on what makes groudon-P so damn good, as it is a mon that gets 180 atk stab on it hitting everything neutrally, and that wasnt it hit neutrally, gets super effectivly hit by its secondary stab.
If thousand arrows did not excist, we could have lot more viability for certain mons and abilities that really got hindered by it such as heatran and levitate. Even skarmory could finally get a proper niche

I've had this thing noticed ever since the move came out; Groudon and physical proteans tend to improve their damage output dramaticly against balanced and offensive teams just by slapping thousand arrows on their moveset as pretty much nothing that is tailored to be defensivly bulky that switches in enjoys taking STAB neutral hit that cannot really be avoided.
Groudon would take a gigantic nerf without thousand arrows and hell you could even argue that assist would not need to stay banned if thousand arrows was banned (but lets not argue about that this time)
Granted, groudon-p alone doesnt just spam t-arrows, the v-create option also hurts a lot and is the main selling point of groudon-p currently, as it is pretty hard to live.

But without thousand arrows, groudon-p would certainly be lot more easier to handle.

 

[Lcass4919]

View attachment 41004
Uber Long post go go go go go

In-Depth Arguments

-Pokemon Bans in BH are a very sensitive topic, and for good reason. Its usually the ability/move that breaks the mon, not the Pokemon itself. Yet i Primal-Groudon is a exception. Simply put, Primal Groudon is broken because it is a high usage threat, that can run highly versatile sets, and places an unreasonable burden on the opponent to check it. Essentially the mere presence of Primal-Groudon puts the opponent at a disadvantage at teambuilder.

-Unlike several other "borderline threats" such as Rayquaza-Mega, Primal-Groudon can break any of its "counters" with merely its two powerful STABS. V-Create/Thousand Arrows/ Precipice Blades is enough to break even Fur Coat Giratina, V-Create/Thousand Arrows alone has perfect netural coverage on the whole tier. Groudon can utilize Tinted Lens/Adaptability/Mold Breaker/Desolate Land to insane effect. Tinted Lens gives Primal Groudon a 180 BP move with no resists and no immunities barring abilities. As you can imagine, only Fur Coat Giratina/Slowbro dares switch in. Same with Adaptablity. Desolate Land patches Groudon's terrible 4x weakness, leaving it with only 1 weakness, and boosts V-Create to near Tinted Lens levels. Mold Breaker rounds out the 4 by killing Fur Coat and Shed.

-Now you may be asking, how does this make Groudon different from any other pokemon? Rayquaza can run protean/aerliate/Gale Wings and coverage to beat all all of its so called counters too! Well you are correct. But the huge difference between Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza is pretty simple, Rayquaza is busted because his abilities make him so good. Tbh protean Mega Ray is not the best abuser, its optimal abilities are Aerialate and Gale Wings. Rayquaza is utterly reliant on these abilities to give him busted priority stabs. Therefore Mega Rayquaza isn't the problem. Take away the previously mentioned abilities from Groudon and you still have a Pokemon with perfect neutral coverage in his STAB moves alone and high bulk capable of tanking all the priority revenge killing in the world.

-Groudon does have some flaws, it isn't the "perfect" or "unbeatable" pokemon. But its the closest we have ever seen to one. It has a 4x Weakness to Water, but this is easily patched by Desolate Land, which just happens to make his V-Create powerful enough to 2hko Mega Bro and Giratina. His low speed? how bout Choice Scarf. Normally Choice items are shit in bh. Name a threat and there about 99 reasons why it shouldn't run a choice item. MMx/MMy prefer to be able to hit with all of their coverage. Rayquaza is either mixed or set up. Kyogre is defensive/PH set up. Mega Gengar wants Spooky Plate etc. Granted there are some reasons to run Choice items in BH. MMy with Choice Scarf can beat Deo-A with a broken Sash if your team needs that. But the drawbacks of Choice items are Groudon are slim. Choice Scarf Adamant outspeeds Mega Mewtwo Y, and either you hit TArrows, which has zero relevant resists,(Fuck Swadloon Deathly ♛The King ), V-Create is the best move for a hit and run threat, and U-Turn gives momentum. Choice Bands put any wall your opponent may have found down very quickly. Simply put, Choice items are barely have any drawbacks to Groudon.

To Summerize my main points:
- Primal Groudon has the best Offensive typing in the game, Its STABs are the best in the game because of highest bp, or a complete lack of relevant resists.
-Primal Groudon is an extremely powerful Pokemon that already puts tremendous pressure on the metagame without abilities/items to put it over the top.
- Said abilities demolish its two counters that do not rely on abilities to counter the Don himself. (180 BP STAB move with no resists, and its draw back only forces it out against offense threats)
- Its Few flaws are patched quite well by Desolate Land and Choice Scarf.

In my opinion, the BH Community should ban Primal Groudon from the Metagame for the duration of Generation 6, for the many reasons stated above. I welcome discussion as always.

Calcs

252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-308 (52 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-309 (52 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO (SO CLOSE)
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Mega Slowbro: 97-114 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 194-228 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 410-484 (116.8 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There are other calcs, but these are the most relevant to my arguments

Bring it on Haters.

lmao deathly uses swadloon too?! :o gdi i thought i was being innovative :<

 

[motherlove]

To be completely honest, my opinion on this has stayed the same ever since the assist ban;
Thousand Arrows is a extremely big key factor on what makes groudon-P so damn good, as it is a mon that gets 180 atk stab on it hitting everything neutrally, and that wasnt it hit neutrally, gets super effectivly hit by its secondary stab.
If thousand arrows did not excist, we could have lot more viability for certain mons and abilities that really got hindered by it such as heatran and levitate. Even skarmory could finally get a proper niche

I've had this thing noticed ever since the move came out; Groudon and physical proteans tend to improve their damage output dramaticly against balanced and offensive teams just by slapping thousand arrows on their moveset as pretty much nothing that is tailored to be defensivly bulky that switches in enjoys taking STAB neutral hit that cannot really be avoided.
Groudon would take a gigantic nerf without thousand arrows and hell you could even argue that assist would not need to stay banned if thousand arrows was banned (but lets not argue about that this time)
Granted, groudon-p alone doesnt just spam t-arrows, the v-create option also hurts a lot and is the main selling point of groudon-p currently, as it is pretty hard to live.

But without thousand arrows, groudon-p would certainly be lot more easier to handle.

Bringing the prima sea mega ray with hurricane as my new groudon counter.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 240-283 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Heavy Rain: 204-241 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesn't even sound bad.

But yeah, Thousand arrows completely breaks the way gf balanced out the ground type. And pokemons like heatran or ho-oh could become a lot more viable if it wasn't for this one move.

 

[Lcass4919]

i still feel like megas/primals should be megastone/orb/acent only. way too many mega evolutions have brought ridiculous power especially with the EV limit, and although we still HAVE powerhouses like kyurem and whatnot, we at least have a bunch that dont completely decimate the tier, and generally would make the meta at least somewhat more healthy. this is perhaps the one method of nerfing the sheer power/fraility bh has brought that could even remotely HOPE to fix the problem without complex banning pokemon/abilities until it is somewhat stable. i get people are still addicted to megas, and cant imagine a meta without them, but even at the beginning when we didn't HAVE the megas to use in this gen, it felt so much better then it does now. it actually convinced me to take laddering seriously. but now i just don't bother, because i can literally run a team of 6 deoxys, and eventually power through 99% of the tier. or run completely 50/50 reliant sets and clearly come out as the victor, instead of at least having a chance to redeem myself via chansey or something. i feel like removing the megas will at least promote some balance, rather then just having a team of ray/don/ogre and eventually win because nothing can handle the gem trio. thousand arrows is annoying...but its not like thats what makes don broken. v-create easily dismembers them. seriously though, i feel like its time to close the door for megas. and instead of trying to weaken the meta, we instead weaken the POWER of the meta. it wont be banning anything outrageous like a pokemon(no offense kingslayer, personally id prefer banning the 5 powerhouses, but verb wont do that, its too far fetched for what BH is.) while also having a nice idea on what a tier without megas(without their stones) would look like...it would be a nice change of scenery that might eventually stick to people.

now, will removing them "fix" the meta? possibly not as much as i hope it will... but it still will help! it won't make it any worse either, considering audino is the ONLY mentionable poke in that group that even gets used as a wall for the powerhouses. to be honest. i don't get why i keep asking. because obviously nobody agrees. im just saying, as a avid user, and a user who holds NO grudge on primals/megas, i actually feel like they have overstayed their welcome now. and if people don't agree...then oh well lmao, i tried.

 

[DinaIsha]

Sorry for the brief post, but I could agree with the Thousand Arrows ban, since it takes away the need to predict. But banning PDon because of V Create is funny as hell.

 

[Rumors]

Lcass4919 I do and don't agree with you. Some of the megas and all of the primals are certainly clear, dominant powerhouses, including all of the legendary megas but also including a few non-legendaries (such as Gengar). But most megas aren't broken or overpowered, such as Manectric, Sceptile, Houndoom, and Absol. Or some are just straight-up outclassed by things that already exist, like regular Kyogre outclasses Mega Blastoise in nearly every way and then Suicune outclasses it in the one niche it has over Kyogre.

So, I dunno if that'd be a good move because restricting all megas to stones would cause us to lose a good chunk of Pokemon who'd otherwise become viable and also have much more fair stats. On the other hand, banning certain Pokemon to stones and not others seems weird and complicated unless we just straight-up banned the Pokemon in question.



Somewhat related, and more in general, I still think it'd be better to have a Hackmons meta that starts with the OU ban list, with a couple of unbans (like Greninja) and a couple of extra bans (like Slaking and Simple and Tail Glow). But that'd at best have to be applied to a new gen or, more likely and more preferably, be it's own meta. (Which would sort of turn CH into Hackmons AG, BH into Hackmons Ubers, and then the new thing into Hackmons OU.) Though I doubt this'll ever happen since I don't see the mods accepting a new hackmons meta.

 

[CactusCacti]

i still feel like megas/primals should be megastone/orb/acent only. way too many mega evolutions have brought ridiculous power especially with the EV limit, and although we still HAVE powerhouses like kyurem and whatnot, we at least have a bunch that dont completely decimate the tier, and generally would make the meta at least somewhat more healthy. this is perhaps the one method of nerfing the sheer power/fraility bh has brought that could even remotely HOPE to fix the problem without complex banning pokemon/abilities until it is somewhat stable. i get people are still addicted to megas, and cant imagine a meta without them, but even at the beginning when we didn't HAVE the megas to use in this gen, it felt so much better then it does now. it actually convinced me to take laddering seriously. but now i just don't bother, because i can literally run a team of 6 deoxys, and eventually power through 99% of the tier. or run completely 50/50 reliant sets and clearly come out as the victor, instead of at least having a chance to redeem myself via chansey or something. i feel like removing the megas will at least promote some balance, rather then just having a team of ray/don/ogre and eventually win because nothing can handle the gem trio. thousand arrows is annoying...but its not like thats what makes don broken. v-create easily dismembers them. seriously though, i feel like its time to close the door for megas. and instead of trying to weaken the meta, we instead weaken the POWER of the meta. it wont be banning anything outrageous like a pokemon(no offense kingslayer, personally id prefer banning the 5 powerhouses, but verb wont do that, its too far fetched for what BH is.) while also having a nice idea on what a tier without megas(without their stones) would look like...it would be a nice change of scenery that might eventually stick to people.

now, will removing them "fix" the meta? possibly not as much as i hope it will... but it still will help! it won't make it any worse either, considering audino is the ONLY mentionable poke in that group that even gets used as a wall for the powerhouses. to be honest. i don't get why i keep asking. because obviously nobody agrees. im just saying, as a avid user, and a user who holds NO grudge on primals/megas, i actually feel like they have overstayed their welcome now. and if people don't agree...then oh well lmao, i tried.

You know I kinda agree and kinda don't.
While as it's true that megas, specially the big 5, are extremely strong and pretty much currently nail the tier as it is, banning all the megas would kinda feel lame.
Currently as it is, most of the OU level megas (aka those that start below 600BST alone) tend to pretty much buff themselves up to similiar level of excisting ubers, but with a ton of more flaviour and variety with their stats and typings.

It would pretty much stagnantise things as the viability would once more, drop to using the ubers and few selected special cases (like chansey, gengar and sheddy) like in gen 5, when you think about it, the variety and what is good to run back in gen 5 was surpisingly small, as it currently is, due of megas, there's lot more variety in the meta than just ubers tier.

To be honest, I'd rather look at the BST for the basis of limiting the use of the megas/primals than just roll it on the megas alone.
All the mons in the big five break 770 BST line and that alone tells something when the suppoused god of pokemons has 720.

Basicly, if mon reaches 750+ BST it should be limited somehow cause really, in the current frailty levels, having superior stats in everything really puts on weight for the meta.

 

[Lcass4919]

You know I kinda agree and kinda don't.
While as it's true that megas, specially the big 5, are extremely strong and pretty much currently nail the tier as it is, banning all the megas would kinda feel lame.
Currently as it is, most of the OU level megas (aka those that start below 600BST alone) tend to pretty much buff themselves up to similiar level of excisting ubers, but with a ton of more flaviour and variety with their stats and typings.

It would pretty much stagnantise things as the viability would once more, drop to using the ubers and few selected special cases (like chansey, gengar and sheddy) like in gen 5, when you think about it, the variety and what is good to run back in gen 5 was surpisingly small, as it currently is, due of megas, there's lot more variety in the meta than just ubers tier.

To be honest, I'd rather look at the BST for the basis of limiting the use of the megas/primals than just roll it on the megas alone.
All the mons in the big five break 770 BST line and that alone tells something when the suppoused god of pokemons has 720.

Basicly, if mon reaches 750+ BST it should be limited somehow cause really, in the current frailty levels, having superior stats in everything really puts on weight for the meta.

Lcass4919 I do and don't agree with you. Some of the megas and all of the primals are certainly clear, dominant powerhouses, including all of the legendary megas but also including a few non-legendaries (such as Gengar). But most megas aren't broken or overpowered, such as Manectric, Sceptile, Houndoom, and Absol. Or some are just straight-up outclassed by things that already exist, like regular Kyogre outclasses Mega Blastoise in nearly every way and then Suicune outclasses it in the one niche it has over Kyogre.

So, I dunno if that'd be a good move because restricting all megas to stones would cause us to lose a good chunk of Pokemon who'd otherwise become viable and also have much more fair stats. On the other hand, banning certain Pokemon to stones and not others seems weird and complicated unless we just straight-up banned the Pokemon in question.



Somewhat related, and more in general, I still think it'd be better to have a Hackmons meta that starts with the OU ban list, with a couple of unbans (like Greninja) and a couple of extra bans (like Slaking and Simple and Tail Glow). But that'd at best have to be applied to a new gen or, more likely and more preferably, be it's own meta. (Which would sort of turn CH into Hackmons AG, BH into Hackmons Ubers, and then the new thing into Hackmons OU.) Though I doubt this'll ever happen since I don't see the mods accepting a new hackmons meta.

i agree with both of you guys dont get me wrong, im just saying, its the ONLY way of banning them next to actually banning them. obviously if verb decides to start banning mons it would be amazing and im totally for getting rid of the "5 powerhouses", but to my knowledge, thats not happening,and banning all megas would be the "next possible solution" thats quick, effective, and solves some huge problems.

 

[Esprite]

I thought of a hilarious PDon (lure?) set:
Desolation (Groudon-Primal) @ Normal Gem
Ability: Simple
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Fire Punch
- Thousand Arrows
- Explosion
Nobody will see it coming.