nobody calls you that man!! having different opinions doesn't make anybody a noob!!
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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
- Status
As someone who never posts in Ubers at all, generally a good idea would be to play the meta a bit more, watch high-quality replays and lurk the forums more to get a better understanding of the metagame and what makes something good or bad on a team. Don't get down about this; everyone starts somewhere. I'm the person who thought Gale Wings should be Uber when I first joined.
Sebberball
formerly BoXeD
Yay, ubers VR post #2
I say Greninja B- --->B/B+
Greninja, other than being one of my favorites, is a great ubers mon' whether it be for utility, or whether you need a reliable cleaner, Greninja is your man-frog-thing-ninja, it can be used as a hazard setter, having access to Toxic Spikes and Spikes, it even gets U-Turn, along with a few other mentions. But with it being a spikes setter, it can allow people to get some poison on a Pokemon, or some damage on a Pokemon, since Greninja has a few things it can counter, it is a great counter to Pokemon that threaten the S rank Pokemon, like Ice types for Megamence, Fighting types for Arceus (it gets extrasensory!) or grass types for Kyogre, because it has ice beam, And last but not least, Kyogre-P for Groudon, it has stab grass knot AND HP grass, so I believe that Greninja can be B/B+
I say Greninja B- --->B/B+
Greninja, other than being one of my favorites, is a great ubers mon' whether it be for utility, or whether you need a reliable cleaner, Greninja is your man-frog-thing-ninja, it can be used as a hazard setter, having access to Toxic Spikes and Spikes, it even gets U-Turn, along with a few other mentions. But with it being a spikes setter, it can allow people to get some poison on a Pokemon, or some damage on a Pokemon, since Greninja has a few things it can counter, it is a great counter to Pokemon that threaten the S rank Pokemon, like Ice types for Megamence, Fighting types for Arceus (it gets extrasensory!) or grass types for Kyogre, because it has ice beam, And last but not least, Kyogre-P for Groudon, it has stab grass knot AND HP grass, so I believe that Greninja can be B/B+
Something important to consider regarding any S-rank moves is that moving one sub-rank in S-rank is a much bigger movement than, say, from A- to A. It means that the Pokémon defines the metagame on a more considerable level. This brings me to my next point: Mega Salamence is bar none the best Mega Evolution in Ubers, but do all of its traits make it as much of a metagame definer as Primal Groudon? Several things to keep in mind are:
1. How Mega Salamence influences the metagame. If some Pokémon start running specific moves just to have a better chance at beating Mega Salamence (for example, Primal Groudon running Dragon Pulse to hit Mega Salamence on its SDef and Arceus-Normal running Stone Edge to hit it SE), then that is an ambivalent argument: one could say this adaptation is purely because of Mega Salamence being such a dominant threat, but others could claim it is simply spontaneous tier adaptation to Mega Salamence's presence.
2. To what degree Mega Salamence defines the metagame. This ties in with the previous argument of tier adaptation: threats start to run specific moves to more easily beat the dragon, so the argument can be made that Mega Salamence's presence is threatening enough to force other Pokémon to adapt. I'd say that's pretty meta-defining and one of many reasons why it is S in the first place.
3. Comparing its influence to other metagame definers. The Pokémon we should compare Mega Salamence to are obviously its fellow S-rankers Arceus-Normal and Xerneas, as well as the King of Ubers itself, Primal Groudon. Use the previous two arguments along with this one and compare how strong Mega Salamence's grasp on the metagame is compared to these other three Pokémon. Of course, the focus of this argument should pertain to the main point - whether or not Mega Salamence is good enough to stand in S+ alongside Primal Groudon - so comparing to Primal Groudon is the main goal here.
Thus, the central question to ask ourselves is: Are Mega Salamence's overall traits and influence on the metagame great enough as Primal Groudon's? If they overall are, then Mega Salamence obviously deserves S+; if not, then it should just stay where it is.
1. How Mega Salamence influences the metagame. If some Pokémon start running specific moves just to have a better chance at beating Mega Salamence (for example, Primal Groudon running Dragon Pulse to hit Mega Salamence on its SDef and Arceus-Normal running Stone Edge to hit it SE), then that is an ambivalent argument: one could say this adaptation is purely because of Mega Salamence being such a dominant threat, but others could claim it is simply spontaneous tier adaptation to Mega Salamence's presence.
2. To what degree Mega Salamence defines the metagame. This ties in with the previous argument of tier adaptation: threats start to run specific moves to more easily beat the dragon, so the argument can be made that Mega Salamence's presence is threatening enough to force other Pokémon to adapt. I'd say that's pretty meta-defining and one of many reasons why it is S in the first place.
3. Comparing its influence to other metagame definers. The Pokémon we should compare Mega Salamence to are obviously its fellow S-rankers Arceus-Normal and Xerneas, as well as the King of Ubers itself, Primal Groudon. Use the previous two arguments along with this one and compare how strong Mega Salamence's grasp on the metagame is compared to these other three Pokémon. Of course, the focus of this argument should pertain to the main point - whether or not Mega Salamence is good enough to stand in S+ alongside Primal Groudon - so comparing to Primal Groudon is the main goal here.
Thus, the central question to ask ourselves is: Are Mega Salamence's overall traits and influence on the metagame great enough as Primal Groudon's? If they overall are, then Mega Salamence obviously deserves S+; if not, then it should just stay where it is.
Here's a quote from firebird on why it's not D from the old thread. To be fair it's much better then deo-d and fightceus but not much higher then C ranks like Dragceus and steelceus.
EDIT: why is gira-a still C+? It's setup bait to so many dangerous things I'm questioning why it's C+.
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1) I don't think Salamence is forcing specific moves on certain Pokemon. You might see an Ice Beam (Ghost/Normal) Arceus or two but that's still a relatively rare case and it's more about specific case adaptation than centralization (such as needing a Salamence answer than isn't Wobb bait w/ Ice Beam Ghostceus)
2) This one's a bit hard to answer because some of Mence's power is tied to other mons being so good at removing its checks. Take Primal Groudon, for instance. Its presence deters the use of Pokemon like Electric Arceus and Zekrom which could've worked as decent checks. In fact, a lot of Salamence's checks are rendered relatively unusable in the Ubers environment (Mega Aggron, porygon2, Zapdos, Mega Slowbro, Bronzong, Mamoswine (I actually don't know if Mamo is viable or not)). In turn we get a relatively short list of: Lugia, certain formes of specialized bulky Arceus, Rock Arceus, Shuca Dialga, Shuca TTar, and Skarmory as perhaps our only viable checks and there are pretty significant costs to each one, which makes Salamence feel overpowered.
3) Salamence IMO does not define the metagame any more than Xerneas does. Maybe slightly more than EKiller, definitely not at the same level as PDon. Xerneas, like Mence, forces several answers as it's a sweeper that simply cannot be revenged (bar Bullet Punch from a few barely viable mons). Both Pokemon are capable of supporting as well. Mence is easier to immediately take down with its SR weakness and the fact that you can actually OHKO it, but Xerneas lacks recovery and only gets to do its sweeping attempt once. When comparing to Primal Groudon, Salamence does not have the same impact: Primal Groudon renders a number of Pokemon unviable (including the previously notorious Gothitelle and the metagame-defining Scarf Kyogre), shifts the metagame towards more Ground-type usage due to it being its sole weakness, provides a tremendous support to sweepers like Salamence and Xerneas thanks to how complementary its typing is to theirs, and of course being splashable on virtually every team. Salamence lacks that kind of splashability and does not affect other Pokemon's viability to the same extent, and its sweeping ability is really nothing new when titans like EKiller and Xerneas exist already.
With that in mind I firmly oppose to Salamence being in S+.
And really, S is already a super strong tier.
2) This one's a bit hard to answer because some of Mence's power is tied to other mons being so good at removing its checks. Take Primal Groudon, for instance. Its presence deters the use of Pokemon like Electric Arceus and Zekrom which could've worked as decent checks. In fact, a lot of Salamence's checks are rendered relatively unusable in the Ubers environment (Mega Aggron, porygon2, Zapdos, Mega Slowbro, Bronzong, Mamoswine (I actually don't know if Mamo is viable or not)). In turn we get a relatively short list of: Lugia, certain formes of specialized bulky Arceus, Rock Arceus, Shuca Dialga, Shuca TTar, and Skarmory as perhaps our only viable checks and there are pretty significant costs to each one, which makes Salamence feel overpowered.
3) Salamence IMO does not define the metagame any more than Xerneas does. Maybe slightly more than EKiller, definitely not at the same level as PDon. Xerneas, like Mence, forces several answers as it's a sweeper that simply cannot be revenged (bar Bullet Punch from a few barely viable mons). Both Pokemon are capable of supporting as well. Mence is easier to immediately take down with its SR weakness and the fact that you can actually OHKO it, but Xerneas lacks recovery and only gets to do its sweeping attempt once. When comparing to Primal Groudon, Salamence does not have the same impact: Primal Groudon renders a number of Pokemon unviable (including the previously notorious Gothitelle and the metagame-defining Scarf Kyogre), shifts the metagame towards more Ground-type usage due to it being its sole weakness, provides a tremendous support to sweepers like Salamence and Xerneas thanks to how complementary its typing is to theirs, and of course being splashable on virtually every team. Salamence lacks that kind of splashability and does not affect other Pokemon's viability to the same extent, and its sweeping ability is really nothing new when titans like EKiller and Xerneas exist already.
With that in mind I firmly oppose to Salamence being in S+.
And really, S is already a super strong tier.
I'm with you, man. I honestly have no idea what Giratina-A is still doing there, when Lugia does its job as a dedicated wall better thanks to recovery, higher Speed and ability to at least semi-reliably take on the top threats of the metagame? On top of that, there's Giratina-O who's a great Defogger and Spinblocker with good tanking potential and reliably strong offenses. I really don't know what this thing does compared to the other Great Wall or its counterpart... Drop Giratina-A to C or even C-.
Alright, that's definitely an interesting insight. I've gotten some very clear anti-move arguments, so that's already one side of the spectrum. Right now I'm personally against moving Mega Salamence up, since it simply isn't on Primal Groudon's level and I fully agree S is already super high. Already high enough for a monster like Mega Salamence.
Even with my limited experience in Ubers I can tell you that the last half of this post is greatly flawed. Despite having an incredible ability in Protean, please do not use Greninja as an offensive Pokémon in Ubers. Even factoring in STAB it simply is not up to par with the level of offensive power here, and I can't really see it scoring any KOs any time soon aside from an Ice Beam on megamence (and even then that's assuming it's not sub or +1 speed). It's only niche in ubers is as a hazard setter; if it didn't have that it wouldn't be ranked, plain and simple. If you want an offensive threat, use just about anything else in the tier.
Giratina-A is a good Extreme Killer check and checks Salamence better than Lugia because of Will-O-Wisp and Dragon Tail. Unlike Lugia, Giratina is not useless when it gets poisoned and is not Stealth Rock weak.
Please explain how Giratina, a wall without recovery, isn't useless when statused, contrary to Lugia, a Pokémon with recovery. Both of these Pokémon are utterly plagued by Toxic, as both have poor offensive presence. Additionally, Lugia gets Dragon Tail as well, should it want to retain phazing capacities without being prevented from phazing by Taunt; speaking of which, both of these Pokémon equally despise being Taunted. Indeed, Giratina-A has no SR weakness, but Lugia is relatively fast for a defensive Pokémon at base 110 Speed and has access to Roost. It also has a large opportunity cost compared to its Origin Forme, who provides superior utility as a spinblocker and has much better offensive prowess, while still possessing good overall bulk.
I posted this to defend gira-a in the old thread:
Giratina-A should remain in C+. It is one of most reliable Primal Groudon counter. Primal Groudon 3hkos at BEST with aids blades/dragon claw, and Giratina just dragon tails it away. Giratina-A should be used in a hazard heavy team, however some will point out that Gira-o is usually better in this type of teams anyways. The distinction between Gira-o/Gira-a phazing sets is the fact that Giratina-A's pressure combined with Rest stall is usually more than enough to stallbreak opposing stall team by pp stalling. This is a niche that is suitable for C+ IMO.
Giratina-A should remain in C+. It is one of most reliable Primal Groudon counter. Primal Groudon 3hkos at BEST with aids blades/dragon claw, and Giratina just dragon tails it away. Giratina-A should be used in a hazard heavy team, however some will point out that Gira-o is usually better in this type of teams anyways. The distinction between Gira-o/Gira-a phazing sets is the fact that Giratina-A's pressure combined with Rest stall is usually more than enough to stallbreak opposing stall team by pp stalling. This is a niche that is suitable for C+ IMO.
Would be rather wary of calling it a counter. A few concerns:
1) Swords Dance PDon will still hurt, and you can't burn it. If it Dances on the switch prepare to take 70% minimum from aids blades. That's gonna leave Giratina in kill range for a lot of things, such as Mence's Double Edge, and Giratina will often have difficulties finding room to Rest off that damage against teams that typically have SD+ RP Primal Groudon. Better make that one time checking count.
2) Defensive PDon can speed creep Giratina-A and outphaze it. In that event Giratina can do nothing but Rest, unless you can find a slot for Defog.
1) Swords Dance PDon will still hurt, and you can't burn it. If it Dances on the switch prepare to take 70% minimum from aids blades. That's gonna leave Giratina in kill range for a lot of things, such as Mence's Double Edge, and Giratina will often have difficulties finding room to Rest off that damage against teams that typically have SD+ RP Primal Groudon. Better make that one time checking count.
2) Defensive PDon can speed creep Giratina-A and outphaze it. In that event Giratina can do nothing but Rest, unless you can find a slot for Defog.
fair enough about point 1, tho nothing really takes it well. sleeping phaze always outspeed defensive pdon. that's why i'm defending it for C+ rank- it's a pretty shitty mon, just not as shitty as other mons in even lower ranks.
btw: only viable gira-a set IMO is the double phazing resstalk set. defog/status is pretty much always outclassed by gira-o.
All Giratina run Rest so Giratina doesn't mind status. That makes Giratina a good status absorber while it still threaten physical sweepers with Dragon Tail and Will-O-Wisp. And when Stealth Rock is up, Lugia loses Multiscale so it loses to Stone Edge Arceus, Mega Salamance and Rayquaza, while Giratina can still check them.
About the Origin Forme, almost no one uses Rapid Spin in Ubers, I rather think the opportunity cost is no Levitate to check Primal Groudon better and no room for Defog. Giatina-O has good offensive presence, but because of no leftovers, Giratina-O acts as an only one time check for physical threats.
So that's why I think Giratina and should stay in C+.
Im a little late on this update, but it doesn't matter - nothing moved! If you want to see the last time a mon actually moved around, see the last update.
Change List:
Nothing!
Not Changed:
Mega Salamence S >>>> S+: If you need any info as to why it didn't move up, read back a page - there were many excellent posts that detail the reasoning behind Salamence's position.
Giratina: Its still good at doing the usual Giratina stuff (tanking stuff, phasing, spreading status and just sitting there) as support Primal Groudon only does like 30% with Blades and it can switch into Ho-Oh comfortably.
As for discussion points, everything is open. Next update will be next Monday.
Change List:
Nothing!
Not Changed:
Mega Salamence S >>>> S+: If you need any info as to why it didn't move up, read back a page - there were many excellent posts that detail the reasoning behind Salamence's position.
Giratina: Its still good at doing the usual Giratina stuff (tanking stuff, phasing, spreading status and just sitting there) as support Primal Groudon only does like 30% with Blades and it can switch into Ho-Oh comfortably.
As for discussion points, everything is open. Next update will be next Monday.
Is it Dice who actually decides the viability rankings or the Ubers community lol.
Why is Latias/Latios in S- Rank.Weak to pursuit trapping(Ttar,Aegislash),Weak to priority(Yveltal/Giratina/Ekiller),Makes an average at most synergy with Groudon since both take Ice Beam from Ogre.Need to pray your opponent doesn't have dragon tail to switch it in on Groudon. I mean with all those flaws it's just an ok defogger(Latias) since it can't switch in on some dons/Ttars(most common SR users), An average sweeper(Latios) weak to all sorts of priority. So I really can't understand their place in the "S" category at all.
I'm not saying they are bad Mons,Actually they have some great utility with firepower and great bulk combined in one Pokemon but A/A+ would be more than enough for those 2 specially Latios.
Darkrai's place is in the S/S- rank category.Any Player who is good at team building is aware about how much this Mon restricts team building in general.
It's horribly damaging to the balanced archetype.Since if it gets lucky ONCE with a flinch or ho oh waking up first turn It's good game directly.
Why is Latias/Latios in S- Rank.Weak to pursuit trapping(Ttar,Aegislash),Weak to priority(Yveltal/Giratina/Ekiller),Makes an average at most synergy with Groudon since both take Ice Beam from Ogre.Need to pray your opponent doesn't have dragon tail to switch it in on Groudon. I mean with all those flaws it's just an ok defogger(Latias) since it can't switch in on some dons/Ttars(most common SR users), An average sweeper(Latios) weak to all sorts of priority. So I really can't understand their place in the "S" category at all.
I'm not saying they are bad Mons,Actually they have some great utility with firepower and great bulk combined in one Pokemon but A/A+ would be more than enough for those 2 specially Latios.
Darkrai's place is in the S/S- rank category.Any Player who is good at team building is aware about how much this Mon restricts team building in general.
It's horribly damaging to the balanced archetype.Since if it gets lucky ONCE with a flinch or ho oh waking up first turn It's good game directly.
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Mega Gengar -> back to S rank
It's a pokemon that unless plyaed in spectacularly poor fashion ensures at the very worst a KO and if played well it can dismantle entire teams. Before ORAS there was almost no reason not to consider it for a teamslot, even with the competition of the other megas, but now that Mega Salamence exists one may argue that its opportunity cost has significantly increased. While I don't deny this, it should be noted that the metagame is now overprepared to deal with Mega Salamence with dedicated checks such as Lugia, several Arceus formes with Ice Beam and even niche stuff like Solrock, all of which are very vulnerable to Mega Gengar. Overall Mega Gengar is a threat that has a huge impact in battles and greatly affects teambuilding, and as such it's deserving of S rank.
Mega Sableye -> drop to B+ rank or lower
It's just not bulky enough for ubers. Its typing isn't bad, but its resistances/immunities are fairly useless, has an awful fairy weakness and lacks resistances to the dominant offensive types in ubers (ground, fire, ice, water, dragon, dark and flying) so pretty much any decent offensive threat can easily 2HKO it. It's a free switch-in for the likes of Primal Groudon and Ho-oh and Klefki can do a number to it with Dazzling Gleam/Play Rough so Mega Sableye isn't exactly good at detering its Spikes.
Mega Aerodactyl -> drop to C rank or lower
What is Mega Aerodactyl doing in B rank? I find hard to believe that it has the same viability as Kyurem-W, Zekrom and Aegislash. Opportunity cost alone should make it drop into the C ranks, and even then it's just not that powerful considering its offensive options are mediocre at best and it can't hold boosting items. I'd take Mega Mawile and Mega Lucario over Mega Aerodactyl any day.
It's a pokemon that unless plyaed in spectacularly poor fashion ensures at the very worst a KO and if played well it can dismantle entire teams. Before ORAS there was almost no reason not to consider it for a teamslot, even with the competition of the other megas, but now that Mega Salamence exists one may argue that its opportunity cost has significantly increased. While I don't deny this, it should be noted that the metagame is now overprepared to deal with Mega Salamence with dedicated checks such as Lugia, several Arceus formes with Ice Beam and even niche stuff like Solrock, all of which are very vulnerable to Mega Gengar. Overall Mega Gengar is a threat that has a huge impact in battles and greatly affects teambuilding, and as such it's deserving of S rank.
Mega Sableye -> drop to B+ rank or lower
It's just not bulky enough for ubers. Its typing isn't bad, but its resistances/immunities are fairly useless, has an awful fairy weakness and lacks resistances to the dominant offensive types in ubers (ground, fire, ice, water, dragon, dark and flying) so pretty much any decent offensive threat can easily 2HKO it. It's a free switch-in for the likes of Primal Groudon and Ho-oh and Klefki can do a number to it with Dazzling Gleam/Play Rough so Mega Sableye isn't exactly good at detering its Spikes.
Mega Aerodactyl -> drop to C rank or lower
What is Mega Aerodactyl doing in B rank? I find hard to believe that it has the same viability as Kyurem-W, Zekrom and Aegislash. Opportunity cost alone should make it drop into the C ranks, and even then it's just not that powerful considering its offensive options are mediocre at best and it can't hold boosting items. I'd take Mega Mawile and Mega Lucario over Mega Aerodactyl any day.
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Agreed with Lord Outrage that Latias and Latios should drop to A+, for the reasons he stated. During SPL I was almost always happy to see a Lati on the opposing team, given how easily offense breaks by them and defensively-oriented teams wall them with a simple Steel-type, of which there are many good ones to choose from (GL fitting HP Fire in the Defog / CM slot!)
I'm not a huge fan of Mega Sableye, but calling it a free switchin for Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh is not accurate when Sableye can use either Toxic or Foul Play to nail them. Also, Sableye is a better switchin to Klefki than you give it credit for. Klefki does not 2HKO Sableye with Play Rough or Flash Cannon and Dazzling Gleam is a horrible move on it because when checking GeoXern, it often does not put Xerneas into KO range for the rest of your team unless you have a Genesect / Lucario / really powerful wallbreaker waiting in the wings. You also fail to mention that common hazard setters, such as Ferrothorn and some Deo-S, are completely walled by it. Even if Deo-S carries Skill Swap, it's still only getting one hazard up in the lead slot so long you have Foul Play.
How is a Normal immunity useless by the way? Sableye is a hard check for both Extreme Killer and Mega Kangaskhan. The Psychic immunity helps check shit like Mega Mewtwo X, which is still very good. You are absolutely correct that Sableye's overall physical bulk is not great (thank CHRIST, an overpowered Magic Bounce user would not be fun at all). There's no question that certain teams can overwhelm it, like the sample team variant with SD Groundceus over EKiller and Rayquaza over Darkrai. But Magic Bounce + the ability to check a variety of physical attackers warrants A- IMO.
I'm not a huge fan of Mega Sableye, but calling it a free switchin for Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh is not accurate when Sableye can use either Toxic or Foul Play to nail them. Also, Sableye is a better switchin to Klefki than you give it credit for. Klefki does not 2HKO Sableye with Play Rough or Flash Cannon and Dazzling Gleam is a horrible move on it because when checking GeoXern, it often does not put Xerneas into KO range for the rest of your team unless you have a Genesect / Lucario / really powerful wallbreaker waiting in the wings. You also fail to mention that common hazard setters, such as Ferrothorn and some Deo-S, are completely walled by it. Even if Deo-S carries Skill Swap, it's still only getting one hazard up in the lead slot so long you have Foul Play.
How is a Normal immunity useless by the way? Sableye is a hard check for both Extreme Killer and Mega Kangaskhan. The Psychic immunity helps check shit like Mega Mewtwo X, which is still very good. You are absolutely correct that Sableye's overall physical bulk is not great (thank CHRIST, an overpowered Magic Bounce user would not be fun at all). There's no question that certain teams can overwhelm it, like the sample team variant with SD Groundceus over EKiller and Rayquaza over Darkrai. But Magic Bounce + the ability to check a variety of physical attackers warrants A- IMO.
I actually personally think that Latios should probably be a sub-rank lower than latias. For the niche's of the latis (defogging, soft checking both primals, beating most cm arcs), Latias does do them better than Latios due to the extra bulk both physically and specially that she gets. Latios does hit harder, but given that they are both checked by the same things, I personally dont believe it is much of a stretch to say that latias>Latios in this metagame.
yeah one of the things latios has got going for him is the cm set as opposed to a defog one. latias is often preferred on balanced as it's a better check to groudon and does better vs ogre as well. on offensive teams where you want to/need to fit a lati healing wish can often be an invaluable asset essentially granting e.g mmence another chance to shine (whether or not skymin is better fit for this role is another discussion). that leaves latios on more offensively oriented balance teams and on the select teams where you want a strong wallbreaker that also checks ogre (and check-check pdon). but most importantly, on teams where you don't need or already have defog. this is the big opportunity cost of cm latios, even though the set itself is very deadly. because latios hits quite a bit harder than latias (especially when running modest) it can wear down checks more easily opening up holes for something else to put in work (think klefki, ttar etc) and smash holes in most stall teams without a ferro. then again cm latias wins vs cm ghosteus that switch in whereas latios doesn't =[
is latios worse than latias? I don't really think so. is latios often harder to justify as a result of latias' prowess being more useful more often? I set so many parameters that I can't answer a anything but yes. I wouldn't oppose latias in a+ and latios in a tbh.
is latios worse than latias? I don't really think so. is latios often harder to justify as a result of latias' prowess being more useful more often? I set so many parameters that I can't answer a anything but yes. I wouldn't oppose latias in a+ and latios in a tbh.
Mega Sableye definitely not a B+ mon and should stay where it is. It can anti-lead Deo-S almost 100% of the time (unless you run into a mental herb skill swap one which I never have) between magic bounce and taunt, it can check Ekiller (and doesn't have to worry about stone edge like yveltal does) as well as a bunch of other threats including the mega mewtwos, defensive yveltal, and Mega-Kang, and doesn't have much that can switch into taunt due to how set-up heavy this meta-game is. If it runs metal burst, it can beat two of it's common switch-ins (Ho-oh and PDon) if it foul plays on the switch. Even though stall is rarer now, it beats Ferro, Lugia, Blissey, Arc-W and many other stall mons giving you free turns to set up/wall-break with another mon.
I'd also like to nominate Yveltal for A>>>>>> A+
This is a bit of a difficult nomination since I think that the whole A+ rank needs to be redone (ie. move Latis down, move M-Gar and Darkrai up like others have said), but Yveltal has so many good sets that it can use and it's difficult to predict so I wanted to at least start some discussion.
Its defensive set has taunt, which renders many common switch-ins less useful for a couple turns, has a strong as hell foul play that can OHKO Ekiller after rocks or LO damage or even without those if it chooses to run dread plate/black glasses, hell its defensive set can even run Charti berry in order to lure SE Ekiller and dispatch of it as well as weaken offensive PDon in a pinch. Defensive Yveltal is also one the of the best, if not the best, Arceus-Ghost checks in the game.
It breaks balance cores with its LO set due to Dark pulse hitting hard and oblivion wing providing longevity and damage in the form of a reasonably strong flying STAB. Along with sucker punch, it's a great revenge killer.
It can even run a bulky specs set of 192 HP, 252 SpA, 64 Spe with dark pulse/oblivion wing/heat wave/sleep talk to break even further (2HKOs Xern/EKiller, PDon without hazards and doesn't even have to run much speed in order to outspeed geomancy variants before geo so it can invest in bulk), it can 2HKO Darkrai with any combination of moves from sleep talk, take two rounds of bad dreams damage, and live a +2 sludge bomb, it can lure out klefki and smash it with a heat wave, paving the way for a sweep with a variety of mons such as geoxern, Ekiller, Sd Rayquaza, etc. Its scarf set is more niche but still works well with M-Gengar and can tear teams apart with its help.
I dunno, Yveltal just seems much stronger and more versatile than any other A-Rank mon, it can find ways to lure and smack its most common checks, Klefki and Xerneas, and it doesn't seem right to stick it with mons such as MMY, Dialga, and Gira-O.
I'd also like to nominate Yveltal for A>>>>>> A+
This is a bit of a difficult nomination since I think that the whole A+ rank needs to be redone (ie. move Latis down, move M-Gar and Darkrai up like others have said), but Yveltal has so many good sets that it can use and it's difficult to predict so I wanted to at least start some discussion.
Its defensive set has taunt, which renders many common switch-ins less useful for a couple turns, has a strong as hell foul play that can OHKO Ekiller after rocks or LO damage or even without those if it chooses to run dread plate/black glasses, hell its defensive set can even run Charti berry in order to lure SE Ekiller and dispatch of it as well as weaken offensive PDon in a pinch. Defensive Yveltal is also one the of the best, if not the best, Arceus-Ghost checks in the game.
It breaks balance cores with its LO set due to Dark pulse hitting hard and oblivion wing providing longevity and damage in the form of a reasonably strong flying STAB. Along with sucker punch, it's a great revenge killer.
It can even run a bulky specs set of 192 HP, 252 SpA, 64 Spe with dark pulse/oblivion wing/heat wave/sleep talk to break even further (2HKOs Xern/EKiller, PDon without hazards and doesn't even have to run much speed in order to outspeed geomancy variants before geo so it can invest in bulk), it can 2HKO Darkrai with any combination of moves from sleep talk, take two rounds of bad dreams damage, and live a +2 sludge bomb, it can lure out klefki and smash it with a heat wave, paving the way for a sweep with a variety of mons such as geoxern, Ekiller, Sd Rayquaza, etc. Its scarf set is more niche but still works well with M-Gengar and can tear teams apart with its help.
I dunno, Yveltal just seems much stronger and more versatile than any other A-Rank mon, it can find ways to lure and smack its most common checks, Klefki and Xerneas, and it doesn't seem right to stick it with mons such as MMY, Dialga, and Gira-O.
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Dilwar
Hi
Agreed with everything Lord Outrage said. Latis are pretty overrated, I think people are just overjoyed by the fact Soul Dew is finally back and we got some cool Defoggers, but yeah for the reasons he and Sweep stated, they're more worthy of A+.
However I disagree with Darkrai to S, as by definition of this rank a Pokemon must be able to sport versatility in being able to run both offensive and defensive sets. Versatility is what truly separates great Pokemon from the good. Darkrai has no defensive capability and is rather one dimensional. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't stop it being an absolutely massive threat that's extremely difficult to reliably check, but this should be the reason why it's A+ in the first place - the best among the good. A+ is still a very solid rank. If Darkrai wants to go S, it needs to be able to offer defensive utility. I personally do see it as big a threat as some of those in S rank, solely due to the sheer offensive pressure it exerts, but unless we change the definition of said ranks, then it's not really worth of S.
TL;DR - Latis to A+. Darkrai's offensive capability is worthy of S rank, but its lack of defensive utility holds it back from being this rank.
However I disagree with Darkrai to S, as by definition of this rank a Pokemon must be able to sport versatility in being able to run both offensive and defensive sets. Versatility is what truly separates great Pokemon from the good. Darkrai has no defensive capability and is rather one dimensional. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't stop it being an absolutely massive threat that's extremely difficult to reliably check, but this should be the reason why it's A+ in the first place - the best among the good. A+ is still a very solid rank. If Darkrai wants to go S, it needs to be able to offer defensive utility. I personally do see it as big a threat as some of those in S rank, solely due to the sheer offensive pressure it exerts, but unless we change the definition of said ranks, then it's not really worth of S.
TL;DR - Latis to A+. Darkrai's offensive capability is worthy of S rank, but its lack of defensive utility holds it back from being this rank.
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Mega gar back to S/-
No clue why this thing dropped but in the current meta with shit tons of massive mons to deal with mega mence (arc forms, lugia, etc) is beneficial for it to do its role which was unavailable at the beginning of oras, and the reemergence on stall/balanced increases its ability significantly.
No clue why this thing dropped but in the current meta with shit tons of massive mons to deal with mega mence (arc forms, lugia, etc) is beneficial for it to do its role which was unavailable at the beginning of oras, and the reemergence on stall/balanced increases its ability significantly.
There are more to defensive ability than just bulk..... Mega gar was S rank due to its ability to freely remove one mon with minimal repercussion which in itself is defensive utility, darkrai performs a similar role but to a lesser degree since gengar chooses what it removes whereS darkrai only gets to remove an opponent chosen mon though at this point it's fodder (sleep talk is a god awful move and unreliable as shit). That qualifies as defensive utility in my eyes.
the defensive utility darkrai provides mostly consists of checking all cm arcs with void+np. yeah it can sleep a mon often, by that is offensive rather than defensive because you aim to directly take advatge of it. what megagar does in terms of defensive synergy is.. checking arc formes, doing well vs stall builds (with mgar being relatively uncommon I think, and I'm one of the few, that you can sometimes justify not running pursuit if it makes your team work out better but thats a testament to mgar's viability I guess..), and suiciding vs things it out speeds, mainly ekiller. protect is very good for this reason as you can guarantee a lati/ray1/w.e getting trapped and always revenging ekiller. you can often use it to great effects dgmw, but I still think it can be pretty hard to justify sometimes as you constantly have to ask yourself if running mence isn't more 'worth' it. you then also face the problem of getting mgar in vs a mon you want to trap which can be problematic on types of offensive-but-slightly-less-offensive teams you use it on.
what people don't seem to realise imo is when they say "you can always suicide something" is that this is a slight issue in itself. pdon, latis, ogre and such being common is a big annoyance for the sp00k because you have to db those outright as stabs/focus blast just don't do enough. this is why it ran rampage in xy, it had am easier time actually killing stuff. the oras mons really don't do it any favors, bulky offensive teams (without cm arcs as opposed to xy!) are the 'downfall' of mgar. I don't really see how an offensively lacklustre mon that is forced to force trades, yet checks ekiller traps bothersome latis and does well vs stall really deserves s-.
most support for this likely comes from the fact that s- has some mons it doesn't deserve but that means we should move those down and not mgar up.. especially with latis moved to a+ (maybe even latios to a omg) I think it fits in well with the bunch. klefki is still a+ =[ what a good lamemmon. if latis move down it wouldn't nonsensical to move it to a mid maybe!
I also think some leftovers from the heavily dice influenced rankings should get fixed like aero in b mid when it shouldn't be more than b- or probably even c+ because realistically there are very few teams it can fulfil its niche on. I get that aeroforry is ebbic, but still b- imo. I like ttar too but I don't really at all agree with it in a-. its no where near as defining as other a- mons and can be lacklustre in practice because it hits like a wet bagal. trapping latis, checking krai and ghosteus well are big defensive roles for sure and meanwhile shitbags like deo-s are also in a- =[ so idk. I'd say it fits a bit better in b+ but not 100% sold
edit: yeah looked at the thread again and aero is just as much of a good nichemon as the rest of b- so it should go there imo.
what people don't seem to realise imo is when they say "you can always suicide something" is that this is a slight issue in itself. pdon, latis, ogre and such being common is a big annoyance for the sp00k because you have to db those outright as stabs/focus blast just don't do enough. this is why it ran rampage in xy, it had am easier time actually killing stuff. the oras mons really don't do it any favors, bulky offensive teams (without cm arcs as opposed to xy!) are the 'downfall' of mgar. I don't really see how an offensively lacklustre mon that is forced to force trades, yet checks ekiller traps bothersome latis and does well vs stall really deserves s-.
most support for this likely comes from the fact that s- has some mons it doesn't deserve but that means we should move those down and not mgar up.. especially with latis moved to a+ (maybe even latios to a omg) I think it fits in well with the bunch. klefki is still a+ =[ what a good lamemmon. if latis move down it wouldn't nonsensical to move it to a mid maybe!
I also think some leftovers from the heavily dice influenced rankings should get fixed like aero in b mid when it shouldn't be more than b- or probably even c+ because realistically there are very few teams it can fulfil its niche on. I get that aeroforry is ebbic, but still b- imo. I like ttar too but I don't really at all agree with it in a-. its no where near as defining as other a- mons and can be lacklustre in practice because it hits like a wet bagal. trapping latis, checking krai and ghosteus well are big defensive roles for sure and meanwhile shitbags like deo-s are also in a- =[ so idk. I'd say it fits a bit better in b+ but not 100% sold
edit: yeah looked at the thread again and aero is just as much of a good nichemon as the rest of b- so it should go there imo.
Dilwar
Hi
Seems I haven't fully understood what defensive utility is. I always looked at it as, effectively removing said mon via putting them to sleep is more offensive utility as it can allow others to have fun, but after some good points Haruno and Apple made (specifically beating CM Arc Forms), I guess it can qualify both ways. In short, I guess Darkrai does offer a little defensive utility. If this is truly the case then a rise to S- is sensible.
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