Exactly what it should mean. Counters are usually Stall mons with high Special/Physical Bulk. Ghoul King was surprised they were.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
- Status
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
Sorry, didn't think you meant that literally, I thought you were implying something else because I didn't think you'd be dense enough not to understand what everyone in this thread has been saying. Of course the only counters are stallmons. That's what Ghoul King was saying. There's obviously no offensive threats that can pack nearly enough bulk to counter a mon like Aero. Yet you keep on going around insinuating that the only reason the council bans stuff is because it wrecks stall, yet literally the only thing that can counter Mega Aerodactyl is stall. Banning Mega Aerodactyl would benefit Offense / Hyper Offense much more than it would benefit stall, which can already somewhat handle it.
And what offensive Pokemon can handle Shell Smash Meloetta with Coverage / Boomburst / Psystrike and 252 HP or for that matter a Specs variant?
Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, Aero M is definitely up there. It's the council's decision whether they want to push it over the edge.
I simply feel like banning Offensive mons too much takes out the fun factor. When all is said and done, everyone loves sweeping. TEG already discussed with me about this. I don't think he'll be acting on it though.
Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, Aero M is definitely up there. It's the council's decision whether they want to push it over the edge.
I simply feel like banning Offensive mons too much takes out the fun factor. When all is said and done, everyone loves sweeping. TEG already discussed with me about this. I don't think he'll be acting on it though.
EV
Banned deucer.
There's a difference between keeping a style in check and destroying a playstyle. FakeSpeed does not invalidate HO but it does prevent a lot of frail threats from setting up until the coast is clear. Or, bulkier setup like Kyurem-B just sets up anyway. Mega Aero, however, destroys anything slower than it not named bulky-Steel-with-Gyro-Ball.
"Everyone loves sweeping" is a false statement. A lot of people love sweeping, not everyone. I prefer to counter threats and dismantle the opponent's team. I usually do not accomplish this with one single Pokemon.
About Meloetta: Normal / Psychic / Coverage is bad. You're always walled by something--Sableye/Aegislash if you have Fighting Judgment, Heatran/Ferrothorn/Empoleon if you have Fairy Judgment, Tyranitar if you have Shadow Ball, Heatran again if you have Fire Judgment. You're better off giving her Psystrike (for Chansey), Dazzling Gleam, and Ground or Fighting Judgment (depends on if you want to hit Ttar or Heatran harder). If you go with Fighting you're still walled by Aegislash and no matter what Sableye can still Topsy/Sleep you first. Unlike with MAero, Sableye switches into Melo as it smashes. It risks eating a Head Smash, Dragon Ascent, or a well-timed Taunt coming into MAero.
That's the difference between a threat like Aero and Melo. One can spam STAB willy-nilly while the other depends on coverage because both its STABs have something immune to them.
... don't shift definitions like that. I never said counter. You said counter. I said check. That is the only term I used. Yes a counter is almost always a stallmon or at least a potential stallmon, since a counter is supposed to be able to switch in as many times as it takes and that demands bulk and healing (Or invulnerability to literally everything that can be done by the thing it is countering, but this is rarely a possibility), but a check only needs to be able to switch in once and force out or kill the thing it checks to qualify.
And the only things that conform to this definition when it comes to Mega Aerodactyl are stallmons, and in most cases only barely. And my point about Sableye was that you are assuming a third of the team is stallmons to check -not counter, check- a single Pokemon. That doesn't set alarm bells ringing in your head?
An offensive team isn't actually that bothered by Meloetta because it simply cannot Shell Smash in safety against an offensively slanted team -whatever is in front of it will do damage, and then a Fakespeeder will take it down if the thing in front of it doesn't manage to kill it. Stall teams and to a lesser extent slow, bulky offense teams hate Meloetta because it is considerably more likely that it will find an opportunity to switch in and Shell Smash in complete safety (Including that Substitute variants can have enough HP that the Substitute survives a Seismic Toss) and from there overpower your checks or counters. (Assuming no Unaware/the Unaware Pokemon is too weakened to survive even an unboosted hit) A straight offense/Hyper Offense team might lose a Pokemon in the process, which isn't a good thing, but will almost certainly kill Meloetta before it can do more than that.
Last edited:
I don't know about you, but I find unbalanced metagames very unfun. Its no fun for anyone if sweepers are so powerful they destroy whole teams with little effort. Mega Dactyl's high speed and normal resist basically forces any HO team to run bullet punch/water shuriken just to not be swept by Mega Aero. Bulky Offense/Balanced/Stall has to run less then optimal shit like Bronzong. That is whats not fun. Mega Aero makes the tier less fun, not the other way around.
gengar | petaya berry
levitate | 4 hp / 252 spa / 252 spe | timid
substitute | pain split | shadow ball | focus blast
You know how I am, with my cool, innovative sets B). I'd like to present to you a Pokemon of major annoyance to the opponent's team during later in the match. Petaya Berry, for those who are unaware, raises the users Special Attack once at an HP of 1/4 or below. Gengar has an insanely high Special Attack stat of 130 already, but Life Orb just wasn't cutting it! Pain Split, Substitute, and Petaya Berry make for a combination that troubles both Stall and Offense alike. Shadow Ball / Focus Blast is optimal coverage, no need for Sludge Bomb. Kind of gimmicky, but very useful should you pull it off! Here's a replay where Gengar cleans up the opposing team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-229406932
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Since petaya provides basically a specs boost, I have to ask: What does this gain over regular LO Gengar in terms of power? What kills does this get that standard LO doesn't? And tbh unless there are several mons, it may not be worth it to get down to such a low hp in order to gain that firepower. Not saying its a bad set, but it might be a little outclassed by Lo gengar in practice.
gengar | petaya berry
levitate | 4 hp / 252 spa / 252 spe | timid
substitute | pain split | shadow ball | focus blast
You know how I am, with my cool, innovative sets B). I'd like to present to you a Pokemon of major annoyance to the opponent's team during later in the match. Petaya Berry, for those who are unaware, raises the users Special Attack once at an HP of 1/4 or below. Gengar has an insanely high Special Attack stat of 130 already, but Life Orb just wasn't cutting it! Pain Split, Substitute, and Petaya Berry make for a combination that troubles both Stall and Offense alike. Shadow Ball / Focus Blast is optimal coverage, no need for Sludge Bomb. Kind of gimmicky, but very useful should you pull it off! Here's a replay where Gengar cleans up the opposing team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-229406932
EV
Banned deucer.
OK the votes are in!
Mega Aerodactyl, 5 ban / 0 dnb
"It has very few counters, basically some physically defensive steels and that's it. It outspeeds everything and has insane power with dragon ascent, let alone nuke button head smash. You can choose to run taunt instead of earthquake if you want, and that allows you to much more easily beat landorus-t, although dragon ascent+head smash always 2hkos it after rocks anyway. It also resists common forms of priority, namely fakespeed." -from convo, which sums it up nicely
The combination of nuke/wallbreaker+stallbreaker+150 Speed+resistance to FakeSpeed is all too much. The fossil is back in the ground.
The Immortal
Mega Aerodactyl, 5 ban / 0 dnb
"It has very few counters, basically some physically defensive steels and that's it. It outspeeds everything and has insane power with dragon ascent, let alone nuke button head smash. You can choose to run taunt instead of earthquake if you want, and that allows you to much more easily beat landorus-t, although dragon ascent+head smash always 2hkos it after rocks anyway. It also resists common forms of priority, namely fakespeed." -from convo, which sums it up nicely
The combination of nuke/wallbreaker+stallbreaker+150 Speed+resistance to FakeSpeed is all too much. The fossil is back in the ground.
The Immortal
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
what the fucking derp lmao.
Has Gyarados-Mega as a stallbreaker been fully explored in the post-Diggersby meta? I feel with moldy, roost, dragon dance, and good coverage, it is a big time threat to all playstyles. Regular Gyarados can abuse flying stabs too, and with less powerful priority floating around it can be deadly against balance.
you have to make sure to be in blade form when it hits since DD uses the SpA of the pokemon currently in the users spot
That makes sense. Thanks.
EV
Banned deucer.
An interesting thing happened earlier in the STABmons daily. I gave someone a team I made and then watched him play in the tour. He came up against an opponent using Mega Sableye and exploited a pretty interesting tactic I hadn't considered. I call it thesecondbest Parting Shot Method.
Bisharp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
The way it works is quite simple. Use Parting Shot against the Magic Bounce user to give yourself a +3 Boost to Attack while phazing them out. Should something like Quagsire come in (which kept happening) just Parting Shot again to get out and bring in your special attacker (in this case it was Mega Sceptile). Against Mega Sableye, the Sableye can do nothing while you keep getting Defiant boosts against it. When you're ready (+6), Adamant Knock Off has a 50% chance to OHKO, otherwise Iron Head or Gear Grind will always OHKO.
It pairs well with Sucker Punch and Pursuit to trap Espeon, which will either Judgment or flee since it won't setup unless it predicts Sucker Punch and even then it has to outplay the predicts afterward.
You can beat Mega Diancie with this strategy also. If it's still a regular Diancie it will flee, giving you a free Parting Shot for momentum, and if it stays in you get the boosts on the mega's Magic Bounce. If it's already mega and your sash is intact, you win with any Steel attack if it uses Earth Power.
Just don't have it out against a Sableye pre-mega since it will WOW or Dark Void. Otherwise it's a pretty cool way to handle all three common Bouncers in STABmons.
Bisharp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
The way it works is quite simple. Use Parting Shot against the Magic Bounce user to give yourself a +3 Boost to Attack while phazing them out. Should something like Quagsire come in (which kept happening) just Parting Shot again to get out and bring in your special attacker (in this case it was Mega Sceptile). Against Mega Sableye, the Sableye can do nothing while you keep getting Defiant boosts against it. When you're ready (+6), Adamant Knock Off has a 50% chance to OHKO, otherwise Iron Head or Gear Grind will always OHKO.
It pairs well with Sucker Punch and Pursuit to trap Espeon, which will either Judgment or flee since it won't setup unless it predicts Sucker Punch and even then it has to outplay the predicts afterward.
You can beat Mega Diancie with this strategy also. If it's still a regular Diancie it will flee, giving you a free Parting Shot for momentum, and if it stays in you get the boosts on the mega's Magic Bounce. If it's already mega and your sash is intact, you win with any Steel attack if it uses Earth Power.
Just don't have it out against a Sableye pre-mega since it will WOW or Dark Void. Otherwise it's a pretty cool way to handle all three common Bouncers in STABmons.
EV
Banned deucer.
Yeah Mega Sceptile can also beat Greninja, probably the best offensive threat right now considering it beats the other S-rank mons no sweat.
I realize Pyroar doesn't see much use, but this set has won me a few matches.
Pyroar Focus sash
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252Atk / 252SpAtk / 4Spe
Naughty Nature
-Shell Smash
-Boomburst
-V-create
-Extreme Speed
V-create with its 180 base power makes up for Pyroar's lack of attack. I chose it over blue flare to get the possible ohko on Chansey at +2. Most people expect a special attacker, so I normally set-up on the switch to Chansey (or whatever else is meant to check/counter the special set). Then its attack continues to increase with each ko. Boomburst can deal with things that don't mind taking a v-create (such as Quagsire or physically defensive Clefable). The main problem for any Pyroar is Heatran, but that's what the rest of the team is for!
Here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Pyroar V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 315-372 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Pyroar V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 561-660 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pyroar V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
What this has over Talonflame is the ability to hit physical walls with boomburst, surprise factor (because not many expect physical Pyroar), moxie, and stab extreme speed. Feel free to criticize the evs (or anything else). I may post replays later.
Pyroar Focus sash
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252Atk / 252SpAtk / 4Spe
Naughty Nature
-Shell Smash
-Boomburst
-V-create
-Extreme Speed
V-create with its 180 base power makes up for Pyroar's lack of attack. I chose it over blue flare to get the possible ohko on Chansey at +2. Most people expect a special attacker, so I normally set-up on the switch to Chansey (or whatever else is meant to check/counter the special set). Then its attack continues to increase with each ko. Boomburst can deal with things that don't mind taking a v-create (such as Quagsire or physically defensive Clefable). The main problem for any Pyroar is Heatran, but that's what the rest of the team is for!
Here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Pyroar V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 315-372 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Pyroar V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 561-660 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pyroar V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
What this has over Talonflame is the ability to hit physical walls with boomburst, surprise factor (because not many expect physical Pyroar), moxie, and stab extreme speed. Feel free to criticize the evs (or anything else). I may post replays later.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
gdi I have been using this in genmons with thundurus and was going to try it but somebody beat me to it :(An interesting thing happened earlier in the STABmons daily. I gave someone a team I made and then watched him play in the tour. He came up against an opponent using Mega Sableye and exploited a pretty interesting tactic I hadn't considered. I call it thesecondbest Parting Shot Method.
Bisharp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
The way it works is quite simple. Use Parting Shot against the Magic Bounce user to give yourself a +3 Boost to Attack while phazing them out. Should something like Quagsire come in (which kept happening) just Parting Shot again to get out and bring in your special attacker (in this case it was Mega Sceptile). Against Mega Sableye, the Sableye can do nothing while you keep getting Defiant boosts against it. When you're ready (+6), Adamant Knock Off has a 50% chance to OHKO, otherwise Iron Head or Gear Grind will always OHKO.
It pairs well with Sucker Punch and Pursuit to trap Espeon, which will either Judgment or flee since it won't setup unless it predicts Sucker Punch and even then it has to outplay the predicts afterward.
You can beat Mega Diancie with this strategy also. If it's still a regular Diancie it will flee, giving you a free Parting Shot for momentum, and if it stays in you get the boosts on the mega's Magic Bounce. If it's already mega and your sash is intact, you win with any Steel attack if it uses Earth Power.
Just don't have it out against a Sableye pre-mega since it will WOW or Dark Void. Otherwise it's a pretty cool way to handle all three common Bouncers in STABmons.
This is actually a really good set that will sweep easily, because with magic bounce it forces the opponent to switch, wasting their turn if they are slow. If you are at +3 and mispredict, however, you automatically lose that boost, so it can be a bit of a letdown if you don't play it right.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
yeah, it works a lot better if they only have sableye and then the rest offense, or if it's diancie. quagsire kinda shuts it down. :(
Shell Smash + Extremespeed + Crabhammer + Baton Pass Bibarel with Simple HURTS.
Especially if you Baton Pass it to a White Herb Cloyster. That is what I run.
Abhishek Potdar (Bibarel) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Crabhammer
- ExtremeSpeed
Then you have A Beedrill Which Hurts like SHIT.
Im gonna Poke you (Beedrill) (M) @ Beedrillite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Megahorn
- Gunk Shot
- Heal Order
And finally this Guy. if you want it , you can simply Replace the White herb with a Sash.(Nothing for roxx)
This guy even outspeeds Talonflames with Water Shuriken, with a +1 Priority, as you have already Baton Passed it from the Bibarel.
Futuristic Twat (Cloyster) (F) @ White Herb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Shard
Prankster Spore? Its Underrated, but useful.
Good night, dawg. (Whimsicott) (F) Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Tailwind
- Spiky Shield
- Leech Seed/Aromatherapy/Stun Spore/Grassy Terrain
Thats it for today. Ill think up more and post tommorow.
Especially if you Baton Pass it to a White Herb Cloyster. That is what I run.
Abhishek Potdar (Bibarel) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Crabhammer
- ExtremeSpeed
Then you have A Beedrill Which Hurts like SHIT.
Im gonna Poke you (Beedrill) (M) @ Beedrillite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Megahorn
- Gunk Shot
- Heal Order
And finally this Guy. if you want it , you can simply Replace the White herb with a Sash.(Nothing for roxx)
This guy even outspeeds Talonflames with Water Shuriken, with a +1 Priority, as you have already Baton Passed it from the Bibarel.
Futuristic Twat (Cloyster) (F) @ White Herb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Shard
Prankster Spore? Its Underrated, but useful.
Good night, dawg. (Whimsicott) (F) Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Tailwind
- Spiky Shield
- Leech Seed/Aromatherapy/Stun Spore/Grassy Terrain
Thats it for today. Ill think up more and post tommorow.
Last edited:
Beedril Mega is certainly one of the underrated threats of STABmons. But it doesn't have the bulk to either set up or heal. I'd say Protect or U-Turn / Megahorn / Gunk Shot / Drill Run (For Heatran) would be a good moveset.Then you have A Beedrill Which Hurts like SHIT.
Im gonna Poke you (Beedrill) (M) @ Beedrillite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Megahorn
- Gunk Shot
- Heal Order
Bibarel is okay, but that Mega Beedrill set lacks Protect, so i'm amazed you even get the chance to set up. Mega Beedrill is just too frail for Coil/Heal Order. I agree with DinaIsha, U-Turn is a better idea. Also Tailwind in singles has never been considered that good. 4 Turns is too short. Not even sure why Grass Terrrain is slashed. Also Encore is one of the main reasons to run Whimsicott, as it can lock a sweeper into setting up. The Cloyster set would be good, but its 100% reliant on being pased shell smash. Perhaps Memento on Whismicott to help ensure a Smash Pass from Bibarel? Although the strategy is vulnerable to Unaware.Shell Smash + Extremespeed + Crabhammer + Baton Pass Bibarel with Simple HURTS.
Especially if you Baton Pass it to a White Herb Cloyster. That is what I run.
Abhishek Potdar (Bibarel) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Crabhammer
- ExtremeSpeed
Then you have A Beedrill Which Hurts like SHIT.
Im gonna Poke you (Beedrill) (M) @ Beedrillite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Megahorn
- Gunk Shot
- Heal Order
And finally this Guy. if you want it , you can simply Replace the White herb with a Sash.(Nothing for roxx)
This guy even outspeeds Talonflames with Water Shuriken, with a +1 Priority, as you have already Baton Passed it from the Bibarel.
Futuristic Twat (Cloyster) (F) @ White Herb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Shard
Prankster Spore? Its Underrated, but useful.
Good night, dawg. (Whimsicott) (F) Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Tailwind
- Spiky Shield
- Leech Seed/Aromatherapy/Stun Spore/Grassy Terrain
Thats it for today. Ill think up more and post tommorow.
- Status