np: ORAS UU Stage 3 - New Gods

[ShatteredSummers]

I think Mamo's a superb addition to UU, especially that it can check DD Salamence, Crobat, Nidoking, and Hydreigon very well.

It has Knock Off to whack Bronzong, and even has Freeze-Dry to hit Swampert and Seismitoad. Also, it's a nice Gligar and Mega-Aerodactyl killer. Mamoswine threatens all of UU's relevant Defoggers.

Ice Shard and Earthquake Calcs

Dragons, Flyings, and Mega Beedrill are all eviscerated.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 411-489 (124.1 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
No surprise there.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 187-221 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 289-343 (84.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 205-244 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 213-252 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 205-244 (61.9 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 187-221 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 151-179 (49.3 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 142-169 (53.5 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 173-204 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ofc Icicle Crash OKHOs all of the aforementioned.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 252-299 (59.5 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So none of the Defoggers are safe.

In addition, Mamoswine scores great damage against Blissey, Doublade, Florges, and Donphan.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 237-281 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 386-454 (54 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 220-259 (61.1 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 198-237 (63.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 213-252 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 330-393 (88.7 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 183-216 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 229-273 (59.6 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Freeze Dry and Knock Off calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 179-213 (52.9 - 63%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-H: 131-155 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 317-380 (78.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 270-328 (73.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 374-442 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Gets walled by

Mostly bulky waters like Suicune and Alomomola, as well as Levitating Pokemon like defensive Rotom-H and Cresselia.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 136-164 (39.5 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 140-165 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 56.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 121-144 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 177-211 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- 21.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-H: 97-116 (32 - 38.2%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 177-208 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Overall, a great Pokemon. Mamoswine is a superb Ground, Flying and Dragon killer and a big threat to all of UU's defoggers.

 

[thyme time]

when was galladite banned? just curious

 

[Master B8s]

I find mamoswine to be threatening on paper, but in practice, just scouting a bit will do just fine. In battle, earthquake and icicle crash are mandatory for strong stabs. Ice shard will be standard because priority and it's the only reason it checks DD Mence and aero. That leaves one slot for freeze dry, stone Edge and knock off. While each move can deter a switch, knock off beats bronzong, stone edge beats that oven thing, and freeze dry the bulky waters. Hell id run stealth rock and a lead set seeing that being such a threat, but underwhelming. A bit of scouting and mamoswine is a much lesser threat than on paper.
Mandibuzz: I went over in the last thread. It has room for brave bird if you really want it to check heracross, but it's not switching in. Foul play/BB/roost/Defog is an inferior set, but nonetheless can check fighting types.
Gallade: lol
Anyways: free trevenant, this thing is trash, let it find a niche in RU.

Edit: forgot the rises, hippo was inevitable, it just thrived better in OU with more things to check and less bulky waters eviolite hippopatas will save sandoge
Alakazam: big loss such a splashable mon. Gonna miss an emergency check to set up sweepers, but it is nice to not have to worry about it on the opponents team. Seems like a double edged sword to me.

 

[glock in my toyota]

Mamoswine moved from OU to UU

As threatening as this will be, base 80 speed is going to let it down in a big way. Stuff like Lucario, Heracross, Entei, and a bunch of others will outspeed and threaten it out with STAB moves. Still a monster and a real pain in the ass to switch into but I think at least for now it's going to struggle if the meta shifts offensively. Ground Ice STAB is gonna be really fun to watch though.

YABO - Not do disregard this entire point, but you have to keep in mind that Jolly Mamoswine does indeed outspeed Adamant Heracross and Lucario, both of which are common sets in UU. Jolly Mamo will be able to hit them with the respective STAB move to deal hard damage. Just pointing this out n_n!

 

[Shadestep]

Mamoswine destroys almost every mega in UU: Aerodactyl, Pidgeot, Ampharos, Beedrill. Not a lot of things can come in on Mamoswine. Gallade is just waiting to drop to BL2/RU, and Mandibuzz is a nice addition to RU (gives us another solid Defog user).

I also think our bro Hippowdon will do better in OU then in UU, as there is much less Scald-spam and water types in general.

 

[YABO]

YABO - Not do disregard this entire point, but you have to keep in mind that Jolly Mamoswine does indeed outspeed Adamant Heracross and Lucario, both of which are common sets in UU. Jolly Mamo will be able to hit them with the respective STAB move to deal hard damage. Just pointing this out n_n!

Sets change, run Jolly. Crisis averted...

 

[Schpoonman]

I fucking knew Galladite was banned...

Anyway, with a few (extremely poorly-) played games under my belt already, I can already say that Mamoswine's low speed is absolutely awful for it. I'm thinking that Mamoswine's best niche will be in dismantling balanced cores. Suicune has to run pretty much maximum bulk in order to safely take two LO Earthquakes after Stealth Rock, and the presence of Ice Shard means that Grass-types outside of Chesnaught can't switch in, while Chesnaught itself gets hamboned by Icicle Crash. That being said, bulky waters with extreme bulk like Alo and Suicune can shut Mamoswine down (well, I'll need to run a Freeze-Dry calc for Alo, but EQ actually outdamages FD without a ton of investment on Suicune), Cress can take one Knock Off and proceed to recover the damage, so super hard stall gives Mamo a lot of problems.

On the flip side, Ice/Ground is fairly abysmal defensively, and Thick Fat would be awesome if we didn't have CB Entei on every few teams, who cleanly 2HKOs and OHKOs more than half the time after Rocks with Sacred Fire, as well as the crazy amount of Fighting spam we have. I was just a little worried about Mamoswine leaving at first, but I think after a few more days we'll see Mamoswine isn't as broken as we feared. Full stall and most forms of Offense threaten him pretty significantly, leaving Mamoswine to prey on balance.

 

[Lucipurrr]

I fucking knew Galladite was banned...

Anyway, with a few (extremely poorly-) played games under my belt already, I can already say that Mamoswine's low speed is absolutely awful for it. I'm thinking that Mamoswine's best niche will be in dismantling balanced cores. Suicune has to run pretty much maximum bulk in order to safely take two LO Earthquakes after Stealth Rock, and the presence of Ice Shard means that Grass-types outside of Chesnaught can't switch in, while Chesnaught itself gets hamboned by Icicle Crash. That being said, bulky waters with extreme bulk like Alo and Suicune can shut Mamoswine down (well, I'll need to run a Freeze-Dry calc for Alo, but EQ actually outdamages FD without a ton of investment on Suicune), Cress can take one Knock Off and proceed to recover the damage, so super hard stall gives Mamo a lot of problems.

On the flip side, Ice/Ground is fairly abysmal defensively, and Thick Fat would be awesome if we didn't have CB Entei on every few teams, who cleanly 2HKOs and OHKOs more than half the time after Rocks with Sacred Fire, as well as the crazy amount of Fighting spam we have. I was just a little worried about Mamoswine leaving at first, but I think after a few more days we'll see Mamoswine isn't as broken as we feared. Full stall and most forms of Offense threaten him pretty significantly, leaving Mamoswine to prey on balance.

Pretty much the same experience I've had with Mamo, even at Max Speed. I feel like max speed kinda helps at times, but I feel you might just need to EV Creep with Mamo to get an effective return from any EV investment. I mean, he's already got STAB+High damage priority, hopefully someone comes up with a good limit to spec speed at. Anyways, like I said pretty much the same things you noticed are things I have noticed. I've been OHKO by a lot of surprised Brick Breaks/Low Kicks. Mamo is going to be a high viability Pokemon and a staple for offensive cores, but I don't believe he's breaking the tier at all.

 

[Godsend]

Maero lost one of his few good switch ins :(

 

[fatty]

I really think Mamo is going to be very good for the tier. Yes, it's powerful, but it gives offense a solid way of dealing with powerful threats such as aero and mence, where bulky waters were almost needed before. Going to be great on balanced as well, especially being one of the better offensive rockers.

 

[Patrick1088]

So, after playing with Mamo and Mandibuzz a little, here's my 2 cents...

Mandibuzz:
This bird is a great fit for most teams, but deserves special mention for Hail teams. Overcoat is such a great ability. Mandi is like the baby between Crobat and Forretress. It has the bulk and utility, along with great resists/immunities (Dark, Ghost, Ground, Grass, Psychic) that puts it in a similar situation to UU's top hazard removers. Personally, I like Sp Def since it's physical bulk is pretty good.

Mamoswine:
LO set is very good (as everybody knows and has shown calcs for), but there are still some solid checks to Mamo; Mienshao, Infernape, Heracross, Cobalion (can't switch in, but is one of the best checks with not being afraid of Ice attacks and easily outspeeds). Defensive wise, we have some checks; Slowking, M-Aggron (non-EQ switch in), Suicune, Bronzong, Ferroseed (Leech Seed + Protect it to death combined with LO damage), M-Steelix, Jellicent, Eviolite Doublade (can switch in on Ice move, take the EQ and OHKO with Gyro Ball/Iron Head albeit tighter %'s for IH), etc.. But, I honestly feel that Feraligatr is more of a threat than Mamoswine (and consequently is another offensive check with priority Aqua Jet). Mamo is a great anti-meta mon that will shake things up (M-Pidgeot, M-Aero, M-Scept, M-Beedrill, Salamence), but I don't feel that this is a case of broken checking broken. As said before, it's speed is one of the, if not THE, biggest downfall. Despite hitting hard, it's easily RK. It's STABs are good in UU where Dragons and HO reins supreme, so I think it'll be a top tier mon, but not broken to the point where you need to run dedicated hard checks and counters.

 

[YABO]

I fucking knew Galladite was banned...

Anyway, with a few (extremely poorly-) played games under my belt already, I can already say that Mamoswine's low speed is absolutely awful for it. I'm thinking that Mamoswine's best niche will be in dismantling balanced cores. Suicune has to run pretty much maximum bulk in order to safely take two LO Earthquakes after Stealth Rock, and the presence of Ice Shard means that Grass-types outside of Chesnaught can't switch in, while Chesnaught itself gets hamboned by Icicle Crash. That being said, bulky waters with extreme bulk like Alo and Suicune can shut Mamoswine down (well, I'll need to run a Freeze-Dry calc for Alo, but EQ actually outdamages FD without a ton of investment on Suicune), Cress can take one Knock Off and proceed to recover the damage, so super hard stall gives Mamo a lot of problems.

On the flip side, Ice/Ground is fairly abysmal defensively, and Thick Fat would be awesome if we didn't have CB Entei on every few teams, who cleanly 2HKOs and OHKOs more than half the time after Rocks with Sacred Fire, as well as the crazy amount of Fighting spam we have. I was just a little worried about Mamoswine leaving at first, but I think after a few more days we'll see Mamoswine isn't as broken as we feared. Full stall and most forms of Offense threaten him pretty significantly, leaving Mamoswine to prey on balance.

I was talking to one of my friends about Mamo earlier today. We came to the conclusion that Mamo will sort of polarize the metagame. Fast teams have no trouble outspeeding and OHKOing due to Mamo's garbage defensive typing. Stall can have trouble with it but ultimately, without any way to elevate its attack it faces stiff competition from other wallbreakers like Heracross who can boost up. As you said, Mamo messes up a ton of balance cores so it'll be cool to see the effect it has but my preliminary thoughts say it could be cool for the tier.

 

[Jaguar360]

Really enjoying the tier right now (I was pre-shift as well; UU is awesome). Haven't gotten around to using Mamoswine yet, it's been on nearly every team I've faced so far. It's definitely a threat, but it's manageable. I've mainly been using Pory2 to take hits from it, though all of them carry Knock Off, so it's not quite the solution. Not too hard to play around though. All the Mamos I've seen so far have been LO, though I think the lead set will work really well here. Oblvious being immune to Taunt is nice for facing the Azelf, Infernape and Aerodactyl leads and it has Icicle Spear to break the Sashes of Galv and others. Mamoswine's a welcome addition to the tier. (though I have a feeling that he'll move back up to OU in August or November)

Mandibuzz is also a nice drop. Its all-around bulk is amazing and it's pretty effective as a Defogger. STAB Foul Play is nice on it and makes it really good at beating most physical sweepers. I've been using a fully physically defensive set with U-turn in the 4th slot. U-turn really helps it to not be so passive and gives opportunities for its teammates to set up. I like it so far.

The UU usage stats were interesting. Glad that Doublade and Slurpuff moved up since I've always been advocates for them and glad that Cress moved up as well because I really hated it in RU. The drops to RU were good. Glad that Flygon and Scrafty get a chance to shine down there. The Noivern and Kingdra drops confused me at first, but then I remembered that there are so many other Dragons in UU, so they make sense. The Salamence drop from last shift probably pushed them over the line.

 

[ShatteredSummers]

That being said, bulky waters with extreme bulk like Alo and Suicune can shut Mamoswine down (well, I'll need to run a Freeze-Dry calc for Alo, but EQ actually outdamages FD without a ton of investment on Suicune), Cress can take one Knock Off and proceed to recover the damage, so super hard stall gives Mamo a lot of problems.

Suicune
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 140-165 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 56.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alomomola
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 177-211 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- 21.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 265-312 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Earthquake hits Suicune harder, but Freeze-Dry hits Alomomola for a 2HKO.

Not to say that Mamoswine has a favorable matchup against either of them:
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 270-318 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Jasper]

We came to the conclusion that Mamo will sort of polarize the metagame.

Well that would be appropriate...he is an ice type, after all.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

 

[YABO]

Well that would be appropriate...he is an ice type, after all.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

The pun was semi intentional anyways :]

 

[Wanka]

As far as mamo is concerned the real main way to check mamoswine is offensively. Don't get me wrong there are mons out there like cress cune and other fat mons that can check it as well which is why I don't think its broken but still extremely good. With a typing like ice/ground it is also more often than not going to have a tough time getting in as with mamo's really not so good bulk I don't see It finding its way in that much unless you are using something like volt turn or any momentum grabbing mons. Otherwise it will more often be gettng in after a sack. When you do get in in however, this thing can terrorize cores and offensive builds if it gets in safe. Some of its offensive checks get bopped by ice shard as well so it really pressures offensive checks to stay healthy as if they get to low ice shard can pick mons off like aero, pidgeot, the nidos, grass types like shaymin and roserade, hydreigon, heliolisk and a few more. I kind of look at mamo and see similarities to a mon like when it was in NU. Camel was tough to get in at times but when it did get in you were losing a mon 80% of the time. However camerupt blew through its defensive checks way better than mamoswine does so I can see mamo sticking around for a while.

 

[Revelation]

Okay, out of curiosity. What 'mons beat Suicune that aren't
smashed by Mamoswine?

Rotom-C, Heliolisk, Toxicroak (Jolly), Heracross does okay, Shaymin, Slowking if at full. There are plenty of options because Mamo is slow.

Thanks!
Though most of those are just checks, right?

 

[YABO]

Okay, out of curiosity. What 'mons beat Suicune that aren't
smashed by Mamoswine?

Rotom-C, Heliolisk, Toxicroak (Jolly), Heracross does okay, Shaymin, Slowking if at full. There are plenty of options because Mamo is slow.

 

[amber lamps]

You're all probabily gonna disagree with this, but I personally think mamoswine could potentially be suspect worthy.
By analyzing its checks/counters I think cresselia is probabily the most reliable counter even tho it wont really enjoy knock off. As for things like suicune or forretress they lack a 100% reliable recovery and they can also be worn down with discrete easiness and with a bit of support given. Also rotom-h is pretty good against mamo, but being weak to sr + the fact that mamo has access to stone edge isn't really a great thing. I'd like to point out that physically defensive umbreon could be an interesting way to deal with mamoswine, but it would lose against things that umb commonly checks like nido, chandelure etc, so yeah, still an inferior choice to the classic spdef set.
Well it could be surely played around and get revenge killed by a decent amount of faster mons, but so far I can't really 100% say that mamo isn't broken.

 

[Patrick1088]

You're all probabily gonna disagree with this, but I personally think mamoswine could potentially be suspect worthy.
By analyzing its checks/counters I think cresselia is probabily the most reliable counter even tho it wont really enjoy knock off. As for things like suicune or forretress they lack a 100% reliable recovery and they can also be worn down with discrete easiness and with a bit of support given. Also rotom-h is pretty good against mamo, but being weak to sr + the fact that mamo has access to stone edge isn't really a great thing. I'd like to point out that physically defensive umbreon could be an interesting way to deal with mamoswine, but it would lose against things that umb commonly checks like nido, chandelure etc, so yeah, still an inferior choice to the classic spdef set.
Well it could be surely played around and get revenge killed by a decent amount of faster mons, but so far I can't really 100% say that mamo isn't broken.

Mamo is strong, but would you say its stronger than other wallbreakers in the tier? Feraligatr and heracross are so much harder to switch into than Mamo. Gatr has that bulky water trait, while access to SD and dD and priority in aqua jet. Hera is bulky and can easily run Jolly, resists the dark/ground coverage and tank the ice shard and easily ohko with cc. Hera can play mind games with physical walls with Flame orb+ Facade, fisbing for scald burns, moxie sets, etc..

Mamo is good, but its typing and inability to boost its attack or speed (Hera can run sD or guts orb, while gatr can boost easily) really holds it back. Its much easier to check than you give it credit (Cobalion, Jolly Lucario, Infernape, Mienshao, Entei) or just some of the offensive checks. Defensive wise, you dont have to resort to phys def umbreon. Phys Def forry can almost cleanly 2hko with Gyro ball, while LO EQ is barely a 3hko. M-Aggron can easily check Mamo as long as it doesnt come in on EQ. Softer checks include Doublade, Physically defensive Tangrowth, Alomomola, etc..

Like i said before, Mamo is strong, but is he really stronger than Hera, Gatr, etc...?

 

[fatty]

yeah I don't really care as much about these "new gods", although Mamo is potent, as much as the old gods, more specifically shit like feraligatr. I kinda just started getting into the whole oras metagame, but from the matches I have had gatr just demolishes shit. Whether it's SD, DD, or I've even seen agility, every set is incredibly powerful and the sheer fact that it could be either one of those sets (as well as variations like sub) just make it a bitch to fight.

 

[YABO]

I agree with the sentiments posted above. I view Mamo, Gatr, and Hera on a sort of a continuum. The two things being measured are wallbreaking potency and ease of use. Ease of use encompasses things such as required set specialization, difficulty switching in, bulk, weakness to common types, etc. With that said, I would argue that Mamo is likely the most potent wallbreaker but it really struggles with switching in and is weak to pretty much everything in the tier. Feraligatr is probably next here in terms of wallbreaking potential but requires set up to really make an impact, lowering its ease of use. Heracross is the least effective wallbreaker but it probably the simplest to use. The three of these are roughly equivalent with the sum of these scores and as such I really don't see Mamoswine getting a suspect any time soon.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

While I'm not going to say that Mamoswine is 100% suspect worthy, I can definitely see it being potentially broken to a degree. Patrick1088, you're right in that Mamoswine has checks that can revenge kill it. However, none of those mons can really switch into Mamoswine very safely at all, and Mamoswine can easily stomp most of them on the switch so it's hard for them to get in safely without Mamoswine first killing something. Of course, Cobalion and Entei could probably switch in on a predicted Icicle Crash or Ice Shard, but the prediction argument works both ways. Using revenge killers is also not a very good argument since almost every Pokemon can be revenge killed in one way or another. Togekiss, for example, has the same Speed as Mamoswine and could be revenge killed by Heliolisk and Raikou in addition to the Nidos and more and still managed to achieve a ban despite having 5 weaknesses including one to Rocks. I know there are bulky Water-types who can avoid being 2HKOed, but let's be honest: Suicune for one thing can really only do it reliable at full HP. If it takes two EQ's, even if it does beat Mamoswine at the end, that leaves it in a position where it can be revenge killed pretty easily. It's a gamble between whether it has to go for killing or crippling Mamo and being left open to getting picked off, or using Rest and becoming more prone to being taken advantage of. It's also easier to damage Cune after it takes a round of SR damage or two. Forretress can beat Mamoswine in a One on one situation, but with Stealth Rock up and repeated switching in, Forretress will soon be put into a position where it can't check Mamoswine anymore. That brings me to a point that I really think should be acknowledged: You people need to look at this in a team situation, not one where it is going to be a one-on-one situation in every scenario. Mega Aggron can check Mamoswine at full health, and possibly one-on-one, but Mega Aggron is incredibly easy to wear down since it will be switching into a lot of shit and sustain a lot of damage in the process. As far as I'm concerned, the only things that can take on Mamoswine reliably are things like Cresselia, Porygon2, and Alomomola. Cresselia will not enjoy a potential Knock off, and even if it will beat Mamoswine 1v1 in the long run, it certainly won't enjoy losing its Leftovers because that makes it overall less effective. Porygon2 will also not enjoy a potential Knock Off either which makes it less effective as a Pokemon. Alomomola is probably a pretty safe bet against non Freeze Dry variants, but against those variants it won't enjoy taking one. Mamoswine can customize that last moveslot for its team's needs, whether it be Knock Off for being spammable and crippling several Pokemon, Freeze-Dry to nail Swampert and Mola, and more. Mamoswine boasts impressive coverage in its STABs alone which will be able to score at the very least a 3HKO on many slower Pokemon, and leave them in a position where a teammate can pick them off quite easily. Few of its revenge killers can truly get in safely.

Mamoswine also has nice utility in its luxury move, its STAB Ice Shard. This makes Mamoswine a potent Pokemon to basically ward off the prominent Salamence and Hydreigon, in addition to revenge killing Mega Pidgeot, Mega Aerodactyl, and Crobat. You could say this makes Mamoswine helpful, but this also means that Mamo isn't quite easy to force out and only makes it all the more dangerous considering many of these Pokemon are top threats.

With all that being said, I'm not 100% sure that Mamoswine is a broken Pokemon, considering it does get revenge killed and doesn't have a way to boost its power. However, considering that Crawdaunt, Togekiss, and Diggersby are all BL and were all kind of easy to revenge kill as well, I don't think "Being revenge killed" is really that convincing of an argument. What I think is Mamoswine's potentially suspect worthy quality is that it functions as an incredibly easy to use wallbreaker in the tier that few Pokemon can safely switch into without being at risk to being revenge killed by one of Mamoswine's teammates (again, always look at this in a team situation, not one where it will be 1v1 in every scenario), and possesses a luxury priority move for UU allowing it to easily pick off some of UU's most prominent offensive Pokemon.

Again, I'm not 100% sure about Mamoswine being completely suspect worthy, and I can't say this completely, and I can definitely see why one would want it to stay. But there are definitely things about Mamoswine that make it a pretty dangerous Pokemon, and I can definitely see why it could potentially be worthy of a suspect.

 

[Patrick1088]

ScraftyIsTheBest those are good points, but comparing Mamo to Diggersby and Crawdaunt is too much imo. Jolly Diggersby hits 422 attack and has access to SD and Agility, combined with QA for priority. The only things can even handle its STABs are Mismagius, Bronzong and Cresselia to an extent. Crawdaunt is in the same boat as Diggersby. Its at a slightly less attack than Mamo (120 vs. 130), but again has access to SD and DD and great STaBs in waterfall and Knock Off, access to Aqua Jet allof which is powered further by Adaptability. The only safe switch ins were literally Chesnaught and fully defensive M-Aggron.

Comparing Mamo to Togekiss iznt right either; they had @ different functions despite being the same speed tier and ParaFlinch took out all aspects of even trying to RK coupled with the great fairy/flying typing and bulk.

Jolly Hera and Jolly Mamo are probably the most relatable mons with a comparable speed tier. The only difference is Priority in Ice Shard. Barring fairys, Defensive Mence and Doublade, nothing else can safely switch into Hera safely. Defensive waters are still going to be hit hard, Stall will still struggle against both these mons.

252 Atk Life Orb Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 164-192 (40.5 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-this could be CB or Guts Orb and do even more

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 140-165 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 56.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 177-211 (33.1 - 39.5%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 207-243 (38.7 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 121-144 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 142-168 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ice Shard is mainly for dragons and weaker faster threats (M-Aero, M-Beedrill, M- Pidgeot, Mence, Hydre, etc..), but barring defensive Mence, none of them could safely switch in Hera. So, Ice Shard lets Mamo check mons that were already checks to Hera. Not much difference IMO.