Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V3 - Thread Closed (See Post #147)

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ORAS OU Sets Viability Ranking Thread V3

Approved by AM
Stolen from Recreant who stole it from Valmanway


The goal of this thread is to individually rank the viable sets of each Pokemon that has a niche in the ORAS OU environment as a community. We will try to rank every viable set, so if you think a specific set should be added, please say so. Of course, you are also welcome to comment on the rankings of the individual sets that are already posted in the thread. I will be updating often, so please discuss things freely!

Before you post keep in mind these few rules:

1. Only Pokemon that are ranked on the current viability ranking thread will be ranked here. This is not the place for new nominations; however, all Pokemon in the main thread will be ranked here, no matter how small their niche.

2. A Pokemon's sets cannot be ranked higher than the Pokemon is on the main viability thread - i.e. Choice Band Azumarill cannot be S rank here because Azu is only A+ rank there.

3. Post intelligently and try to provide justification for any nominations you make. One liners will be ignored.

All right, I think that about covers it. If anyone wants to make or give a banner, it would be much appreciated. Feel free to PM me any questions or concerns and happy posting!



All of S through A-

ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings

S Rank

Offensive Dragon Dance: S
Defensive Dragon Dance: S
Specially Based Offensive Tank: A+
Support: A+
Cotton Guard: A

Dragon Dance: S
Bulky Will-O-Wisp: A+
Swords Dance: A+
Double Dance: A

Magic Guard + Calm Mind: S
Support: S
Unaware Cleric: A+
Unaware + Calm Mind: A

A+ Rank

Choice Band: A+
Belly Drum: A+
Assault Vest: A

Swords Dance: A+
All Out Attacker: A+
Assault Vest: A-
Choice Scarf: B+

All Out Attacker: A+
Rock Polish: A+
Calm Mind: A-

Sand Rush: A+
Choice Scarf: A-
Specially Defensive/Assault Vest: B+

Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin: A+
Offensive Stealth Rock: A+
Choice Scarf: A
Substitute + Swords Dance: B+

Life Orb: A+
Substitute + Pain Split: A
Hex: A-
Choice Scarf: B+

Offensive Dragon Dance: A+
Substitute/Taunt + Dragon Dance: A+

Specially Defensive: A+
Stallbreaker: A
Fast Support: A
Choice Scarf: B+

Life Orb: A+
Choice Scarf: A
Assault Vest: A
Nasty Plot: A

Choice Specs: A+
Calm Mind: A
Choice Scarf: A
All Out Attacker: A-
Rest + Sleep Talk: B+

Offensive Stealth Rock: A+
Defensive Stealth Rock: A
Double Dance: A
Choice Scarf: A

All Out Attacker: A+
Utility Attacker: A+

All Out Attacker/Offensive Support: A+
Calm Mind: A+
Choice Scarf: A
Choice Specs: B+

Tail Glow + 3 Attacks: A+
Rain Dance + Tail Glow: A+
Calm Mind: A-

All Out Attacker: A+
Rock Polish/Agility: A
Boosting Attacker: A-

Utility: A+
Calm Mind: A-

Bulky Swords Dance: A+
Offensive Swords Dance: A+
Defog:A-

Specially Defensive: A+
Offensive Swords Dance: A+
Choice Band: B+

Prankster Utility: A+
Nasty Plot: A+
Mixed Attacker: A

Assault Vest: A+
Life Orb: A+

A Rank

Special Attacker/Revenge Killer: A

Drought Wallbreaker: A

Utility: A

Special Attacker: A

Swords Dance: A
Stallbreaker: A-
Defensive Utility: A-
Substitute + Toxic: B

Mixed Defensive: A
Specially Defensive: A

Life Orb: A
Substitute: A-
Choice Scarf: B+
Assault Vest: B+

Offensive Support: A
Defensive Support: A-
Calm Mind: B+

Calm Mind: A
Defensive Support: A-

Revenge Killer: A

Specially Defensive: A
Defensive: A

Defensive: A
Calm Mind: A
Assault Vest: B+

Defensive: A
Offensive: A-

Choice Scarf: A
Support: A
Choice Band: A-

Offensive: A
Defensive: A

Life Orb: A

A- Rank

Physical Attacker/Revenge Killer: A-

Life Orb: A-
Focus Sash: B+

Sash Leadle: A-

Baton Pass: A-
Support: B+
Offensive: B+

Bulky Dragon Dance: A-
Offensive Dragon Dance: B+

Specially Defensive: A-
Choice Scarf: B+
Offensive ParaFlinch: B+
Expert Belt: B+

Utility: A-
Dual Screens: B+

Choice Scarf: A-
Choice Specs: B+
Magnet Rise: B

Stallbreaker: A-
Utility: B+
Offensive Lure: B

Swords Dance: A-
Bulky Rain Support: A-

Calm Mind: A-
Assault Vest: A-
Choice Specs: A-


Defensive Utility: A-

Contrary Wallbreaker: A-
Substitute + Leech Seed: B

Calm Mind + 2 Attacks: A-
Rest + Sleep Talk: B+
Offensive Tank: B

Offensive Quiver Dance: A-


~~~~~~~~~~~~UPDATE ENDS HERE (8/10)~~~~~~~~~~~~

B+ Rank

Life Orb: B+
Poison Heal: B+
Focus Sash: B-


Swords Dance: B+
Choice Scarf:


Offensive Toxic Spikes: B+
Specially Defensive:
Choice Specs:


Dragon Dance: B+
Choice Band: B+
Specially Defensive: B


Swords Dance: B+

Swords Dance Wallbreaker: B+

Life Orb: B+
Choice Scarf: B


Swift Swim + Swords Dance: B+

Swift Swim + Choice Specs: B+
Swift Swim + Life Orb (Special or Mixed): B+

Life Orb: B+
Offensive Lead:

All Out Attacker/Wallbreaker: B+

Calm Mind: B+
Choice Specs:
Trick Room:

Offensive Lead:
Offensive:
Baton Pass:


Assault Vest:
Defensive:
Offensive:


Calm Mind: B+

Swift Swim Attacker: B+

Choice Scarf:
Swords Dance: B+
Offensive Lead: B
Choice Band: B


Nasty Plot: B+
Choice Scarf: B
Defensive:


Choice Band: B+
Choice Scarf: B
Expert Belt: B

B Rank

Suicide Lead: B
Offensive: B-

Offensive Pivot/Revenge Killer: B

Support: B

Swords Dance: B

Utility Defogger: B

Wallbreaker: B


Choice Scarf: B
Choice Specs: B-

Dragon Dance: B
Swords Dance: C+


Swords Dance + Substitute: B

Unaware: B

Swift Swim + Choice Specs: B

Substitute + 3 Attacks:
All Out Attacker:

Choice Band: B
Swords Dance: B
Bulky Pivot/Defog: B-


Offensive: B

Support Spinner: B

Dragon Dance: B


Defensive:
Specially Defensive:

B- Rank

Pivot: B-

Tank/Support: B-
Trick Room Setter:

Physically Defensive: B-
Belly Drum:

Life Orb + Sheer Force:
Assault Vest:


Physically Defensive: B-

TBD


Nasty Plot Stallbreaker: B-

Defensive: B-
Swords Dance:
Nasty Plot:
Mixed Attacker:

Offensive Lead:


Swords Dance + Extremespeed: B-

Choice Scarf:


Utility: B-

Choice Specs: B-
Defensive:


Pivot: B-

Swords Dance: B-

Choice Band: B-
Dragon Dance: B-
Choice Scarf: C+

C+ Rank

Wish Passer: C+

Offensive:
Specially Defensive:


Rapid Spin: C+
All Out Attacker: C+


Offensive Pivot: C+

Defensive: C+
Trick Room Setter:


Swords Dance:
Choice Band:
Choice Scarf:


Special Attacker: C+
Stallbreaker: C


Physically Defensive: C+

Utility: C+
Swift Swim + Life Orb: C+


Choice Band: C+
Choice Scarf: C


Agility: C+
Nasty Plot: C
Choice Scarf: C-


Trapper: C+

C Rank

Swords Dance: C
Mixed:

Utility Attacker: C


Support: C

Physically Defensive: C

Trapper/Revenge Killer: C


Choice Band: C

Assault Vest: C

Defensive: C

Offensive Support: C

Substitute + Roost: C


TBD

Mixed Defensive: C

Sticky Web: C

Support/Utility: C


C- Rank

Physically Defensive Tank: C-

Special Attacker: C-

Defensive: C-

Offensive Lead: C-


Wall Breaker: C-

Utility: C-

Defensive: C-
Choice Scarf: D


Glare + Dragon Tail:
Dragon Dance:
Coil:

D Rank

Choice Scarf: D
Stallbreaker: D


Shell Smash: D

Life Orb: D
Choice Band: D
Substitute + Focus Punch: D

Stored Power: D


Swords Dance: D
Dragon Dance: D


Moxie: D

Defensive: D

Life Orb Mixed: D


Assault Vest: D

Wallbreaker: D

Offensive: D

Tank: D


Utility/Support: D

Defog + Intimidate: D

Choice Specs: D
Life Orb: D

Support/Utility: D

Chlorophyll Sweeper: D

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a very low amount of viability. Their positive traits are strongly hindered by their negative traits. These Pokemon are justified for very specific roles in the meta-game for very select teams.

NOTE: This is just a list of the current E-rank pokemon. Their niches are too small to identify particular sets.


 
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I'm going to be working with AM to use this thread in tandem with the main viability ranking thread. AM will be giving me his thoughts, and I will be post them here to generate discussion. I'll edit this with his first round of comments in a little bit.

All right, so here are AM's thoughts/suggestions for some rank changes:

DDD Altaria to A+

CM Lando-I to S. Nobody prepares for it, and it can single handedly defeat anything below its speed tier barring M-Latias and Cress with this set.


Assault Vest Azumarill to A. It's actually not shit at all and underrated in this meta.

Scarf Bisharp to A-.

RP M-Diancie to A.

Scarf Chomp should be A-. It's really good.

SubSplit Gengar should be A+ since it grabs momentum really easily against certain balanced builds.

SpDef Gliscor should be A+.

Scarf Lando-T to A please. Still a solid set despite its loss in viability.

Choice Band Talonflame is like B+ honestly. More so just basic opportunity cost.

A+ for all of Thundurus sets. I can explain if need be when the time occurs but anything below A+ for Thundy is underrating it tremendously.

SpDef Exca should be like B+ honestly not A-. Scarf should be B+ as well people underestimate the shit out of and it actually has the ability to take a dump on offense without the necessity of sand support since spin is really just a supplement if you need it, not a necessity.

B for SpDef Rotom. Helps with Landorus a bit.

Calm Mind Slowbro should be A. It's actually a really underrated set right now and I use one on a stall team of mine that stops a bunch of stuff like Landorus, Latis, and Torn-T from winning games.

Support Celebi for B+. It actually can do a lot in that set. Offensive should be B+ as well - it's not bad at all.

Offensive Rain Support Politoed should be B+. It's actually nice.

Calm Mind Raikou should go to B+. Can actually clean well if timed right.


BD Chesnaught should be C+. Hype has died down pretty exploitable with all the Torn-T roaming about.

Scarf Hydreigon to B please.

Defensive Togekiss should be B- it's overrated.

Expert Belt Tini should be B+. Special variants are literally unprepared for right now. Scarf is ass, B- please.

If someone mentions AV Amoongus let them know I will more than likely dropkick them through the internet.

Life Orb Conk is as good as AV. Same rank please.

C+ on Defog Scizor. Doesn't actually have a whole lot of defensive utility with that set.

B- for Offensive Scolipede. C+ is too low.

Lol Sunny Day M-Houndoom. No offense to whoever is fond of this set but like why? You have NP already to do damage.

Defensive Sylveon is like C.


Defensive Nape should be C+ it's one of the best checks to Weavile and Bisharp around. Offensive Lead is C. SD is C+, mixed attacker I'm not exactly sure tbh I just know SD has tons of merit.

I'd put Band at C+ and Scarf at C. Band is just so absurd to switch into while Scarf is a bit easier to play around for Staraptor.

Pretty sure Band Emboar is better but eh no expert on that.


All right, so there are AM's thoughts on a bunch of stuff. To help keep discussion focused, I'm going to post a "Pokemon of Interest" tab in the OP. Discussion is not limited to these mons, but it should revolve around them mostly. I'll also consider doing some other stuff like "Underrated Set of the Week" or something to keep people interested in the thread. Feel free to post your thoughts now!
 
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DarkNostalgia

Fading in, fading out, on the edge of paradise
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think Sub+CM Keldeo should go back to S. It was the original set that pushed it to S at the start of ORAS, and with balance still the most common playstyle (correct me if I'm wrong though), I feel like it should go back to S because of its ability to tear apart balance and break its checks and counters with Scald.
 
I think you could think about ranking Banded Conkeldurr. It's a pretty cool heavy hitter that doesn't really rely on SF moves. Although I don't think it's on par with the other sets, tbh.

Edit: Remove DD Haxorus from the ranking. It's not good and the whole reason that big yellow dragon was ranked was because of the stallbreaker SD set, it's outclassed heavily by other DDers and it breaks stall a lot better than Garchomp does, and has a higher speed than Megachomp while being able to hit things like Rotom with EQ giving it far wider range with stallbreakering.
 
I think Sub+CM Keldeo should go back to S. It was the original set that pushed it to S at the start of ORAS, and with balance still the most common playstyle (correct me if I'm wrong though), I feel like it should go back to S because of its ability to tear apart balance and break its checks and counters with Scald.
The problem with SubCM Keld is that its kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. It wishes it had the immediate power of Specs or Life Orb or the speed of Scarf. Certain metagame trends aren't particularly friendly to it either. The rise of Torn-T, M-Zam, and Fairies are huge threats, and Keld's speed just isn't what it once was. Of course, that is not to say it's not still a fantastic set - I mean its still A+. It's great at exactly what you say. This is kind of a borderline case for me, and I'd be interested to see what some others have to say.

I think you could think about ranking Banded Conkeldurr. It's a pretty cool heavy hitter that doesn't really rely on SF moves. Although I don't think it's on par with the other sets, tbh.

Edit: Remove DD Haxorus from the ranking. It's not good and the whole reason that big yellow dragon was ranked was because of the stallbreaker SD set, it's outclassed heavily by other DDers and it breaks stall a lot better than Garchomp does, and has a higher speed than Megachomp while being able to hit things like Rotom with EQ giving it far wider range with stallbreakering.
Idk about Banded Conkeldurr. I'd like to see some replays or calcs if you have them. DD Haxorus was added specifically at the request of AM - my original draft did not have it listed. From my understanding, DD Haxorus performs really well against offense if it can get off a boost, though I would totally agree that it's difficult for Hax to get that free turn.

Edit: bludz SpDef Talonfalme is a huge threat to so many teams, and I absolutely agree with its rise. Keep the talk on SubCM Keldeo coming - I want to see a good discussion. Thundy is definitely an incoming change, and I'll change the name of the Latios set.
 
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bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I believe specially defensive Talonflame should be A+. It is perhaps even more difficult to deal with than Swords Dance in the current metagame.

I also agree that SubCM Keldeo should be S. It's really its best set IMO and Choice Specs should not be ranked above it. Of course they are all good and do different things but choice locked Keldeo really can be a liability at times. The ability to change moves on SubCM is just amazing, plus it's a mon that a lot of teams need to wear down and the extra longevity of leftovers is great for it

Agree with most of AM's suggested changes, especially ranking all of Thundurus' sets as A+. They are all incredibly effective and A+ worthy IMO.

Edit: I might suggest changing the name of Latios' set "All-Out Attacker" as well, since this set usually runs Defog. Maybe "Offensive Support" instead?
 
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I think you could think about ranking Banded Conkeldurr. It's a pretty cool heavy hitter that doesn't really rely on SF moves. Although I don't think it's on par with the other sets, tbh.

Edit: Remove DD Haxorus from the ranking. It's not good and the whole reason that big yellow dragon was ranked was because of the stallbreaker SD set, it's outclassed heavily by other DDers and it breaks stall a lot better than Garchomp does, and has a higher speed than Megachomp while being able to hit things like Rotom with EQ giving it far wider range with stallbreakering.
I believe that when suggesting to rank completely new sets, you should post replays to prove said set's effectiveness. Because at the moment, I'm really not convinced by CB conk, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who isn't.

DD Haxorus has some niches. Pure dragon typing is one, allowing it to set up on things like electrics much easier than some of its dragon dancing concurrents, and Mold Breaker + Poison Jab allowing it to OHKO most fairies coming off such a huge attack stat is quite the niche in itself. No real clue of where to rank it 'cause I'm not an expert but I don't think it should be unranked.
 
SubCM Keldeo for S
I agree on nominating SubCM Keldeo to rise to S as it can steamroll through Balanced and Stall teams with Substitute to block status-inducers and easily set up on passive walls that fail to do any significant damage, and given the fact that Keldeo can force switches. This is also tied with Keldeo's nice defensive typing, having seven resistances able to wall even dual STABs of certain Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Bisharp, Heatran, to name a few and use them as set-up fodder. Also, being behind Substitute eases prediction allowing you to rack up a free turn to attack or set up, being able to rack up damage on its usual switch-ins and possibly score a burn from Scald. Additionally, Substitute can also be used to scout super-effective coverage moves from opponents such as Energy Ball from Manaphy, which forces the opponent to use it for the sake of breaking Keldeo's Substitute.

Here's a replay of a battle me and SketchUp did two weeks ago showing SubCM Keldeo's effectiveness: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-226204157

Choice Band Tyranitar for A
The second thing I nominate is for Choice Band Tyranitar to rise to A. The high amount damage output allows Tyranitar to pressure Balanced and Defensive teams. In fact, it has the ability to break past shit that wall/tank it otherwise such as Clefable, Rotom-W, and Mega Slowbro; that's something that Tyranitar's other two sets can't do otherwise. Additionally, the thing that sets Band Tyranitar apart from its other sets is the fact that it's more difficult to come in on, allowing it to nail some of its usual checks, or at least weaken them with a fair amount of damage on the switch. It should be noted that due to the high damage output Band Tyranitar's Pursuit, it can even OHKO Talonflame on the switch out, and can trap bulky Psychic-types as well as getting chip damage towards Chansey. Please don't get me wrong though, Tyranitar's other sets perform different roles but I feel that Band Tyranitar should be positioned higher than its current rank, given the offensive pressure it delivers towards Balanced and Stall builds, unlike the Support (Pursuit is fairly weak without Attack investment on the Support set) and Scarf set.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Doesn't Taunt Stallbreaker Gengar and Life Orb Gengar fit under the same set? The difference is whether you run Taunt or Icy Wind as the 4th move but they are pretty much the same.
Specially Defensive Talonflame deserves A+ in my opinion and Choice Band should drop to B+. SpDef is very effective right now (if not the best set) because it switches in against a lot of stuff like Landorus and Zard-Y and it is very good at slowly wearing down defensive cores like Hippowdon + Tornadus-T.
Specially Defensive Zard-Y deserves a mention here. It has some cons SpD Talonflame doesn't have such as no Taunt, a slower Roost and the opportunity cost of being a mega but a water neutrality, more bulk in general and higher firepower are some niches over Talonlame. I've been playing a bit with it and luring in pokemon such as Mega Alt and Scarftar and cripple them for the rest of the game is awesome. B+ / A- for me
 

AM

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LCPL Champion
Anyone is free to ask a more in depth opinion in the changes I suggested in the comment below the OP but regardless I stand by them. There was some sets I asked for removal cause they were either too niche or completely pointless in the meta. Also DDance Haxorus cleans offense. I actually made a mention of when theurbandear asked for a run down of everything and that is why you see it there. Also I asked for DDD M-Altaria (Defensive Dragon Dance) to be put in A+ because Cotton Guard falls under that category as well. One of many changes was Subtoxic to A- which was like at C+ ._. when it sort of can just beat down a lot of bulky offense and offensive teams. Anyways you can tag me as to why I wanted something to go to that rank or w/e really.

Edit: Eh I'm not too keen on SubCM Keld in S buuuut Repeater's replay was some good hard evidence to prove otherwise so seems legitimate outside of my bias.
 
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I really think Mega Latios CM should be unlisted; or if this list has to follow the normal VR put it at D. There's really just no reason to use it over CM Mega Latias as far as I can see.
 

DarkNostalgia

Fading in, fading out, on the edge of paradise
is a Contributor Alumnus
CM Mega Latios kind of works as CM LO Latios, except with more bulk and a lack of recoil, at the cost of power and of course opportunity cost, so it's not really like CM Mega Latias.

Defensive Mega Latias is going to need a set ranking too, perhaps A/A-? (Talking about T-wave+Reflect Type set)
 
I am asking a few questions as this thread is likely to help with inexperienced players.

First of all,can someone explain me about the utility attacker metagross?Isn't AOA the only set?

Secondly,i'd like to know about the difference of offensive pivot and defensive pivot lando-t.

Lastly,i have never used or faced mega altataria so can anyone explain the sets for me?especially support and DDD
 
I am asking a few questions as this thread is likely to help with inexperienced players.

First of all,can someone explain me about the utility attacker metagross?Isn't AOA the only set?

Secondly,i'd like to know about the difference of offensive pivot and defensive pivot lando-t.

Lastly,i have never used or faced mega altataria so can anyone explain the sets for me?especially support and DDD
These questions would be best asked on the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I am asking a few questions as this thread is likely to help with inexperienced players.

First of all,can someone explain me about the utility attacker metagross?Isn't AOA the only set?

Secondly,i'd like to know about the difference of offensive pivot and defensive pivot lando-t.

Lastly,i have never used or faced mega altataria so can anyone explain the sets for me?especially support and DDD
Utility Mega Metagross includes Pursuit and Rock Polish sets.

Offensive Pivot Landorus-T is often Earth Plate Max Atk / Max Spe Adamant while Defensive Pivot Landorus-T is Leftovers with Max HP / Max Def Impish

For Mega Altaria Offensive Dragon Dance is Dragon Dance / Return / Earthquake / Roost or Fire Blast. Support are more defensive sets with stuff like Heal Bell. Special Attacker is just Hyper Voice / Roost / Fire Blast / filler
DDD is either a defensive spread with Dragon Dance or a Cotton Guard set
Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 96 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Heal Bell / Substitute / Earthquake
- Roost

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 12 SpD / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Roost
- Return / Facade
- Dragon Dance

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
248 HP / 108 SpD / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Roost
- Return / Facade
- Dragon Dance
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I notice Choice Scarf Gengar and LO Mix Garchomp are not listed. I know both are fairly uncommon sets but I think are effective enough to warrant ranking.

I agree Altaria's defensive DD sets should be listed as A+. And I think Heatran's Stallbreaker set should be A rank.
 
I'm not sure about SubCM Keldeo rising - I just think its checks are too prevalent and its too prepared for at the moment. It definitely fares fantastically against stall and balance, but balance teams often pack at least a couple water/fighting resists as a part of the teambuilding process. Balance also has tons of viable checks to choose from, and Keldeo can't really do anything aside from hope it can get up a Sub and/or land a burn. Talonflame, Rotom-W, Latis, Starmie, Azu, Clefable, Thundurus, Gengar, Slowbro, Torn-T, Raikou, Serperior, and Manaphy. All these mons are top 30 in usage, and any good balance team will pack two of these explicitly for SubCM Keldeo. Yeah, I get that Keld can still threaten all of these Pokemon if its gets a boost or a burn, but the second your opp sees Lefties, he's gonna send out his Keld check. SubCM Keld doesn't really perform all that well against offense either because its speed isn't all that great. I will agree that SubCM Keldeo does great against stall, but this playstyle is kinda on the decline.

It probably seems like I'm underselling SubCM Keldeo, but I just think Specs Keldeo is a more effective balance breaker. Stall is pretty much dead, so the immediate power of Specs is a much bigger selling point to me. Prediction sucks, but the power is just too great to pass up.

Repeater1947 Nice replay. A bit haxy, but it shows what SubCM Keld can do. However, I tried to imagine how Specs Keld would have done in that slot, so I ran some calcs and wrote out the results. Forgive me if this is a bit obsessive. Lol.

Turn 4: Unevolved M-Alt switches in on Keldeo
Specs Keld 2HKOs w/ Scald + Rocks damage if it lands a burn; Hydro 2HKOs after rocks; Icy Wind OHKOs
SubCM Keld is forced out after doing ~20% and hoping for burn

Turn 8: Torn-T switches in on Keldeo
Specs Icy Wind 2HKOs after rocks, and Keld outspeeds Torn-T after the speed drop. Hydro does ~60%. Scald does ~45%. Keld is forced out if it doesn't kill or go for Icy Wind.
SubCM gets behind a Sub and hopes for a Hurricane miss. Scald does ~30%, and Keld if forced out once its Sub is down.

Turn 10: Reuniclus switches in on Keldeo.
Specs Scald 2HKOs max HP Reun after Lefties recovery.
SubCM is forced out even from behind a Sub.


All right, so yeah, that might not make sense to anyone but me, but it just seems like Specs Keldeo would perform as well as if not better than SubCM in these/most scenarios. That's why I think Specs is the superior set, and why SubCM should stay A+.

Edit @ below: Not trying undersell SubCM Keld at all, and you make good points, which were confirmed by AM, so I'm kinda outranked here. Lol. Anyway, I mentioned it was a borderline case for me in my first post, so I'll move it to S. The order of the sets is still up for discussion though.
 
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Maybe it's an uncommon set, but I still think SpDef ZardY should be listed as it's a great answer to non-Rock Slide Landorus (and many other special attackers) and other threats such as Mega Scizor, Bisharp and the likes (maybe A- or B+, I'm not sure).

I also noticed that Reuniclus' TR set isn't listed too (personally, I'd say it's C+ material).
 

bludz

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My issue with that argument is that its dismissing the other upsides of SubCM - constant recovery and the ability to change moves. Specs is a powerful wallbreaker but its pretty prediction reliant and can still be dealt with by counters such as Celebi provided they aren't bopped by a coverage move. Being choice locked can also be a major liability at times.

The other thing like I said is that while Specs wallbreaks better, it doesn't stay healthy as well which is big for checking the things that Keldeo needs to check. Getting bopped by a Toxic or a T-Wave really reduces Keldeo's effectiveness and SubCM can avoid this. Also many of the mons you listed really don't deal with SubCM much better than Specs - Talonflame isn't switching into either, Clefable is only 2HKOd by Specs Hydro Pump, Rotom-W is CM fodder for the most part and pretty much everything else doesn't like getting burned regardless of the power of Scald.
 
Few quick thoughts:

Metagross - Is Rock Polish Meta under the umbrella of Utility + 3 attacks?
Diancie - Protect Diancie is probably the best Diancie set in the current meta.
Heracross - Separate Sub and SD sets for Heracross? Could possibly play different enough to merit it.
Kyurem-B - Should Kyurem-B have a Physical set and Special set? Again one of those do they play different enough things.
Terrakion - Double Dance Terrakion? That might be one too many sets at that point.
Dragonite - I'd drop Dragon Dance DNite down. Not that great and CB is much more unique in its role.
Tyrantrum - Dragon Dance Tyrantrum? I've seen more talk about that than the Scarf set.
Blastoise - Add AoA Blastoise, as that's a pretty solid set.
Infernape - Nasty Plot set for Infernape? Fire Blast / Nasty Plot / FB or CC / Grass Knot or HP Ice is pretty decent.

Tried to organize that thought dump in a top to bottom and easy to skim way. Mostly suggestions / questions about certain sets.
 
Few quick thoughts:

Metagross - Is Rock Polish Meta under the umbrella of Utility + 3 attacks?
Diancie - Protect Diancie is probably the best Diancie set in the current meta.
Heracross - Separate Sub and SD sets for Heracross? Could possibly play different enough to merit it.
Kyurem-B - Should Kyurem-B have a Physical set and Special set? Again one of those do they play different enough things.
Terrakion - Double Dance Terrakion? That might be one too many sets at that point.
Dragonite - I'd drop Dragon Dance DNite down. Not that great and CB is much more unique in its role.
Tyrantrum - Dragon Dance Tyrantrum? I've seen more talk about that than the Scarf set.
Blastoise - Add AoA Blastoise, as that's a pretty solid set.
Infernape - Nasty Plot set for Infernape? Fire Blast / Nasty Plot / FB or CC / Grass Knot or HP Ice is pretty decent.

Tried to organize that thought dump in a top to bottom and easy to skim way. Mostly suggestions / questions about certain sets.
All right. I'll try to go through these briefly in order.
Meta: Yes. It includes any utility move - RP, Hone Claws, Sub, etc.
Diancie: Protect is kinda wrapped up with AoA because Diancie really only uses Protect to mega evolve safely.
Hera: Not sure on this one.
Kyu-B: Again, not sure, but Life Orb kinda covers both physical and special sets.
Terrakion: I massacred the Terrakion sets initially. AM provided the sets and rankings for it.
Dragonite: Another one of AM's rankings.
Tyrantrum: DD Tyr seems like its outclassed by other DD'ers and its own choice sets. Scarf is actually pretty damn potent against offense.
Blas: I'll def add AoA Blastoise.
Nape: This is an interesting one because it has so many sets for a C+ ranked mon. I'll add the NP set.

Edit @ below: Okay. I'll add DD Tyrantrum.
 
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AM

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All right. I'll to go through these briefly in order.
Meta: Yes. It includes any utility move - RP, Hone Claws, Sub, etc.
Diancie: Protect is kinda wrapped up with AoA because Diancie really only uses Protect to mega evolve safely.
Hera: Not sure on this one.
Kyu-B: Again, not sure, but Life Orb kinda covers both physical and special sets.
Terrakion: I massacred the Terrakion sets initially. AM provided the sets and rankings for it.
Dragonite: Another one of AM's rankings.
Tyrantrum: DD Tyr seems like its outclassed by other DD'ers and its own choice sets. Scarf is actually pretty damn potent against offense.
Blas: I'll def add AoA Blastoise.
Nape: This is an interesting one because it has so many sets for a C+ ranked mon. I'll add the NP set.
I'd put DDance Tyrantrum in there actually. It's B- btw can explain if need be.
 

MANNAT

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There's a few things i might mention later, but you should probably add in the stallbreaker and baton pass sets for mew and take the utility set off of smeargle because it is straight outclassed by several other mons. (skarm & ferro for rocks+spikes, shuckle for SW+rocks etc.)
 

Karxrida

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AM I know I haven't played in a while because life but since when the fuck did Scarf Bisharp become a thing?
 
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