ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[dice]

re: gengar

i don't know what meta shift actually happened to necessitate a rise in ranking of this pokemon? there have always been a couple of stall teams lurking around in oras. regardless, i've said it before and i'll say it again: this pokemon is just so goddamn hard to justify. i have never seen or made a gengar team which impressed me in oras, primarily because it's a worse salamence in almost every way. not only is gengar hella 4mss prone, but it can hardly check anything! imo as of now subhypno is gengar's best set-- perish trap seems helllllllllllllllaaaaaa matchup oriented and at least subhypno can effectively threaten all archetypes while still being able to check ekiller to an extent (you just have to hypno early). vs the stereotypical balance and offense, gengar has almost no reliable things to trap.... unless you hope they have a support arceus that can't immediately threaten it.... meh. i will not budge on my own personal judgment that this poke shouldn't move up.

re: sableye

it may not have the defenses, but it has the typing. a fucking hard check to deoxys-s, ekiller, soft mewtwo check, and overall solid poke for any stall or balance? yes please. it can even afford to run dual status, metal burst, fake out, or even sucker punch if you're trying to be cute. magic bounce is just such a fantastic ability, and it has pretty good typing to abuse it. the psychological advantage it gives you over your opponent, as they'll be wary of using dark void, toxic, etc. is quite nice. this poke is def a- worthy.

re: aerodactyl

it's more viable than literally every pokemon in b-. it has a defined niche on offense and it's pretty unexplored in general-- i think it could possibly fit on some type of balance with pursuit as well, not just aeroforre. i don't want to see it moved down especially when my team is one of the more common offenses seen in upl.

re: lati@s

they're both comparable and have their pros and cons so they should just be grouped together-- i mostly use latios since i feel the need to outpower kyogre with psyshock is important. i'm not sure how much it caught on, but i started running modest latios during spl and it's definitely the way to go w/ it. if you think lati@s is overrated, use a non defog modest set and you will probably change your mind. the splashability of this pokemon and the way it practically necessitates a steel-type on almost every team manifests its threatening nature-- no other dragon in the tier forces teams to use steels fwiw; they are either subpar or are checked by other types. lati@s is just on so many teams for such a good reason: it compresses several things into one team slot and can do dmg. ya, klefki and tyranitar can be gay and it gives darkrai a free switch after the opponent sacks something, but, from my perspective, a lot of latios teams poorly utilize it. mega sableye is one of the best partners to lati@s just because it means the opponent's klefki is effectively useless. similarly, pokemon like band ho-oh can lure out tyranitar for more standard balanced teams. just because lati@s get hard walled by a select few pokemon using a support set doesn't mean they should be relegated.

 

[Jibaku]

[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> hmm
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> should we re-allow chansey talks
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> in the viability thread
[19:26] * dice (dice@MG.ITS.JIBBBBBBBERRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.XD) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> now that mega gengar is no longer S
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> and goth is dead
[19:26] <&Sweep> sure

Long live Chansey

 

[Lord Outrage]

dice
1)I agree with you on sableye to A-.
2)About Gengar you messed up things m8. I don't get the point of constantly bringing in Mence the way we are doing it when we talk about Gengar.Take a look at this set:
Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Destiny Bond
Perish sub protect is great vs stall no need to explain.
Protect/Dbond Good vs Extremekiller and all Arceus forms so good vs offense.
Can kill down Ho-oh on balance or an arceus form to open up for a sweep of a teammate.
Unlike you are saying,This mon has great utility against every single archetype.I would go for S-.
3)About Latios if you just wanna lick its ass you are free lol.But I stayted the reasons already about why lati twins should drop to A.

 

[dice]

ok

 

[dice]

jibaku you're not funny stop stealth editing my posts >:(

 

[shrang]

[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> hmm
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> should we re-allow chansey talks
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> in the viability thread
[19:26] * dice (dice@MG.ITS.JIBBBBBBBERRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.XD) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> now that mega gengar is no longer S
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> and goth is dead
[19:26] <&Sweep> sure

Long live Chansey

If I cut out the bolded part, it looks like dice left in disgust :P

 

[QueenOfHax]

[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> hmm
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> should we re-allow chansey talks
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> in the viability thread
[19:26] * dice (dice@MG.ITS.JIBBBBBBBERRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.XD) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> now that mega gengar is no longer S
[19:26] <&JibaNOTHERE> and goth is dead
[19:26] <&Sweep> sure

Long live Chansey

Yeah no. You're a couple of months too late for that. During the Mega Salamence craze I was advocating a Chansey rise because Mega Gengar's usage had sunk (so Chansey was almost as viable as Blissey, if not more) and you guys were like "lolno", but now that things are starting to revert to their original state Chansey is once again unviable and you're supporting it?

 

[Dilwar]

Chansey vs Blissey debate. Classic.

There's not much to say when comparing these mons. Blissey is able to escape Mega Gengar, or if running Lefties can somewhat threaten Gengar as it can 1v1 it due to its higher Special Attack which lets it run moves like Ice Beam (which also hits things like Mence). Chansey is stuck with Seismic Toss so it's helpless against Gengar. However, Chansey possesses greater bulk, especially on the physical side. Due to Mega Gengar's low usage, Chansey is therefore a better wall roughly 90% of the time. Whether the 10% risk of coming across a Gengar outweighs the benefit of the other 90% is just a matter of opinion tbh - it is simply a player's choice when teambuilding (see - KILL OPTIC KILL and other ladderers like Loughborough). To put it short, Blissey boasts more offensive presence and the ability to escape or 1v1 Gengar, but Chansey has greater bulk with a source of reliable damage output in Seismic Toss to make up for a lower offensive presence. If anything, I think being a better wall in the majority of games should at the very least push Chansey out of the disrespectful D rank, because it's not that far behind Blissey in terms of viability.

I'm not too sure though how much that higher physical bulk matters, because I'm pretty sure physical attackers in the Ubers tier break Chansey anyway. Players who use Chansey can fill more on this.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

chansey for c mid, and no higher. you guys can get hyped over ebbic bulk, but blissey still basically outclasses chansey is most ways... the phys bulk can help it take a physical hit maybe once and get a toxic of, but in that case you are so low that switching out when rocks are up means chansey can't check the special attacker it's supposed to check next time. ok so let me put it like this:

scenario 1: shed shell bliss vs chansey. only viable chansey moveset: softboiled wish toxic seismic toss/heal bell. okay so we start of with a 4mss. you want softboiled ALWAYS. without it, it's so easy to let chansey take a bit of damage, go to a physical attacker (mence, pdon etc), and then lose a turn vs that mon because you can't switch out... after all, you're at low hp and one double switch+rocks up means your chansey at too low hp. on the turns you want to stay in you can't because you give them a free turn, and because of this keeping chansey healthy is ridiculously hard and youcant do anything about it because the mon is so goddamn passive... hence why softboiled is used; you can switch after that (note this introduces a theme in bad stall builds: "I switch to x when y comes in and can wall a with b" aka passive and linear. borat refers to this (albeit in gsc) as fail stall). you can forgo wish but then the rest of the team is just gonna get outpressured as opposed to chansey so I don't see the point.. this leaves you with 4mss that makes it question her spot on stall. to use chansey you have to spam recovery, meaning.. you can't use chansey. bliss has a hard time running snatch here, chansey needs it less so gains wish.

tldt: this is a shed blissey that loses to stag, but can sometimes afford to toxic. checks xern a bit better, takes random weak-hits.(still loses to cm arc dark btw, it gets pp stalled .__.) this is chansey's most positive comparison.

scenario 2. lefties bliss vs chansey. lol lefties bliss outclasses chansey. you can 100% afford to run one recovery move because of the passive lefties recovery. this helps massively with not getting out-doubled meaning you won't just lose with a hazard up. blissey is actually bulkier in practice because of this. yeah you can't tank the odd weak physical hit, but at least you have a mon that you can use. most importantly, you aren't set up bait vs mence meaning blissey is way less passive as they wouldn't want to risk their maybe biggest asset vs your team. you can also suicide gengar (if you face it) at some point. snatch is also a neat little move allowing you to beat cm arc dark and especially xerneas. oh and what about cm kyogre even maybe? wait... blissey doing BETTER vs special attackers? what is this madness?

leftovers blissey outclasses chansey for like 90%. chansey isn't very good, in fact it's pretty bad. it deserves c-mid, c+ is a long shot and the last thing this atrociously mediocre blob deserves is anything higher. c mid

 

[bsu]

I'm not too sure though how much that higher physical bulk matters, because I'm pretty sure physical attackers in the Ubers tier break Chansey anyway. Players who use Chansey can fill more on this.

^
back when i was still pretty good at XY ubers my main balanced team had a chansey on it, and with that team i managed to peak #1 on the ladder during a mega gengar infested meta lol. but in regards to this, its extra phys bulk isn't like super obviously better, but it does let it simply last a bit longer in general, and can serve as a defensive groudon check/use it to heal up the team occasionally or get a toxic off on the banded ho-oh switch. it can also stall out ho-ohs sacred fires a bit better than blissey, as well as cause ho-oh to take more damage form brave bird as a result of it being able to survive a few more. also alternatively, i used it a lot to bait in mega gengar, since they know for sure if they catch chansey its gg for the blob, so there's that aspect. Also i think chansey can check/counter xerneas better than blissey just due to the increased bulk lol

but ya i don't use chansey or blissey anymore so i cant say much in terms of oras with all the new threats of Pgroudon and mega mence

 

[Nayrz]

Time for the week's update! This woulda been up yesterday when i said it would but you can never find the mods to run it by when you need em. There's a couple of notable changes this week.

Change List:

Latios: S- >>> A - While they are typically cornerstones of teams, offense breaks them rather easily, while more defensive teams with Tyranitar or a bulky Steel type also give Latis little room to breathe. They usually Defog and are forced out next turn meaning they can't reliably pull off what their offensive capabilities can allow them to do. Latios also lacks the more defensive capabilities that Latias does, and is harder to work around as a result. Stronger Psyshocks do help it out though.

Latias: S- >>> A+ - See above. Latias sits a rank above Latios purely because its defensive capabilities enable it to be a more reliable defogger.

Darkrai: A+ >>> S- - This mon is an absolute terror offensively that demands an answer on every team and forces mindgames just by being there. One misplay, misprediction or bad sleep roll vs a Darkrai is enough to lose you the game. While S rank claims to be for mons that can do both defensive things and offensive things, Darkrai's ability to sleep the majority of the metagame (Most Arceus can't sweep unless something is already asleep!) and hit whatever it wants with coverage (Thunder, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb) makes up for the typical "can it switch into things" when considering defensive utility.

Mega Aerodactyl: B >>> B- - While Aerodactyl's abilities for offensive teams are neat, so far it has proven to only be one dimensional by working alongside Forretress. It doesn't really fit on a lot of teams solely on its own merits, and is dropping as a result.

Chansey: Blacklisted >>> C (Note that if Gengar does move up next week this thing is going back to blacklist) Chansey is fairly outclassed by Blissey for a number of reasons and is easier to wear down. See this post for a great description as to why Blissey tends to work better for teams. The only reason this is being ranked again is due to the noticeable drop of Shadow Tag.

Not Changed:

Mega Gengar (A+ to S-) I'm gonna leave this one up for a focused discussion point, as it still remains to be seen that Gengar's utility has become more useful to the point of moving to S rank.

Mega Sableye (A- to B+) This thing is a godsend for balance/stall teams thanks to Magic Bounce and decent physical bulk, allowing it to soft check a bunch of physical attackers and own most hazard setters. Gonna need to see some stronger arguments before this goes anywhere.

Discussion Points:

Mega Gengar: Has Gengar's presence in the metagame increased enough to merit a rise to S-?

 

[Lord Outrage]

Well as I said a bit above, Mega Gengar is helpful against all archetypes from HO to hard stall and can kill all Arceus forms besides ghost who can escape .It also team up with a couple of threats and make (Kinda)broken cores so yeah definitely S material for me even if its less popular than in xy.

 

[ボーイ]

What are the chances of Gengar trapping a Chansey? Probably the amount of Chanseys that don't carry skill swap. I mean lets face it skill swap Chansey's pretty gimmicky, but you gotta face the truth here; Chansey has to be viable.

 

[Aberforth]

Chansey doesn't "have" to be viable, nor does Crawdaunt or a whole slew of other mons. Chansey is barely viable as it is, and is almost completely outclassed by Blissey, and claiming skill swap as a reason for Chansey to be viable is stretching the term "viable" beyond belief. Also, skill swap Chansey still gets trapped by Gengar, unless it skill swaps on the switch, which it wont always be able to do because it needs to recover off the damage that it took from rocks + attack.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

What are the chances of Gengar trapping a Chansey? Probably the amount of Chanseys that don't carry skill swap. I mean lets face it skill swap Chansey's pretty gimmicky, but you gotta face the truth here; Chansey has to be viable.

Skill swap chansey? That sounds like a shed shell blissey with a wasted moveslot!

 

[ボーイ]

So much for my stand of defense. The minute I make a good point about Chansey, I get a flamer on my ass out of fair debate. Chansey is viable, its bulkier than Blissey, and there is a way around Shadow Tag. If you don't like what I just said don't talk to me. Someone else will pick up my reasons eventually and translate it into a much favorable tone of your comfort.

 

[AM]

So much for my stand of defense. The minute I make a good point about Chansey, I get a flamer on my ass out of fair debate. Chansey is viable, its bulkier than Blissey, and there is a way around Shadow Tag. If you don't like what I just said don't talk to me. Someone else will pick up my reasons eventually and translate it into a much favorable tone of your comfort.

Lol dude stop being a baby it's not even that big of a deal you obviously haven't even steppe foot in another ranking thread if you think this was remotely offensive and or offputting, the replies to you that is. You can't expect to make a point about it that's practically moot about the viability of said Pokemon then expect not to get a counter argument for it. Instead of waiting to ride the comment of another person how about you make some more legitimate points on your own? At least then we can sit back and not see you ride the inevitable bandwagon that appears on these ranking threads and will help you get better at proving your point. Lol I don't like what you said but I'm still going to talk to you cause if that's what offends you, two replies that weren't even borderline bad, I don't even know where to begin. Also I wouldn't use Chansey simply cause it sucks. Whatever niche is had goes out the window when you realize the power levels of the tier at this point.

 

[Sweep]

Yeah this is the Internet, the mods will clean up salt as we see fit but you really cannot get offended by comments as innocuous as the one ApplePieFTW made (a user with no track record of evildoing whatsoever).

Chansey isn't bad because of the increased power levels of ORAS Ubers; it still walls shit like Xerneas and CM Arceus very well. In fact, it's better at walling killer deer in ORAS because they hardly ever carry Substitute anymore. Chansey is bad because it's easy to pivot around, is set-up bait vs. any Substitute, Refresh, or Taunt user vs offense, and gives defensive teams tons of room to maneuver with Defog / Wishes / Heal Bell. Yes, Chansey can use Heal Bell itself, but unlike something like tank Xerneas, it has no way to threaten anything with relevant direct damage. This SEVERELY hampers Chansey late-game, as EKiller / Refresh Mega Mence / etc. can dictate to it.


Can we please get rid of S- rank? It looks really sloppy IMO and I don't think I've ever seen a viability ranking use it before (nor have I seen S+ but Primal Groudon is obviously a special case). I propose we move Darkrai / Ho-Oh etc down to A+, Arceus-Ground / Mega Gengar etc. down to A, and so on and so forth. The one caveat is that I'm fine with Ditto remaining in C- instead of dropping to D rank with Fightceus and Deoxys-D, neither of which are viable in this metagame. I hate Ditto but it's better than Deoxys-D :/. D rank and E rank would remain unchanged, besides Fightceus and Deoxys-D dropping. IDK, this isn't a huge deal but I feel removing the "S-" rank would make the viability list more aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Lord Outrage]

Well about the Chansey/Blissey Debate I feel Chansey totally has a niche assuming you have answers on your team to Mega Gengar.
And to people saying it's completely Outclassed by Blissey not at all.
I used Chansey on some bulky builds of mine for a couple of reason I will state now:
1)The way better physical bulk that can really help deal with weaknesses on you teams.
For Example, Everybody knows the offensive Yveltal set(U-turn/Sucker Punch/Dark Pulse/Oblivion Wing) and the Giratina-O classic set with Dragon tail.
Check out those calcs:
48 Atk Life Orb Yveltal U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 114-135 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
48 Atk Life Orb Yveltal U-turn vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 170-201 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
100+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Dragon Tail vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 144-171 (22.4 - 26.6%) -- 22.5% chance to 4HKO
100+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 216-255 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
You can't even switch Blissey on a physical attack that is base 60 from an average attack stat mon. Chansey gets way more opportunities to switch in with minimal damage.
2)Almost no knock off in ubers so you don't risk losing your item to a random knock off slapped somewhere on you opponent's team like in ou.
3)Chansey can aroma in emergencies vs physically offensive juggernauts Unlike Blissey who will die before.
Like just look at this
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Amazing.
So yeah Blissey is probably the best out of the 2 but chansey is definitely viable and fits better on some teams and can help more in some situations.
Like you can't even imagine how much shed shell blissey is shaky.It has to recover everytime it comes in.

 

[Nayrz]

Alright....fine. You guys have endlessly nagged me about it in multiple places, and im removing S- rank. This probably means a bunch of shit is gonna be in weird places so im gonna ask that people give their thoughts on where things should go.

Removed - S- Rank

Changed A+ and A rank to compensate, full change list is here:

Arceus-Ghost: S- >> A+
Darkrai: S- >> A+
Ho-Oh: S- >> A+
Primal Kyogre: S- >> A+
Arceus-Ground: A+ >> A
Mega Gengar: A+ >> A
Klefki: A+ >> A
Latias: A+ >> A
Dialga: A >> A-
Giratina-O: A >> A-
Latios: Stays A
Lugia: A >> A-
Mewtwo + Mewtwo Y: A >> A-
Yveltal: A >> A-

<Fireburn> just move a few things and ask for opinions on the rest
Everything moves down one, besides Latios who stays in A. A- is currently very inflated, and the removal of S- and changes to A+/A is gonna cause a ripple effect on the lower tiers, so i'm gonna have to get opinions of where everything else that looks questionable should go, so i want to hear your thoughts on:

All the current A- mons, what moves down?
Everything in B and C rank, do they move down too?
Do we need an E rank (or rename d to e and have another above it) to better move these mons down?

 

[mertyville]

I think E rank is unnessecary since D rank already represents the pokemon that are Uber by default but wouldn't be listed otherwise.
At most I could see a D+ ranking or D- to differenciate the level of barely viable mons and maybe move most things down by one ranking to remove inflation.

 

[Magcargo]

I think having an E-rank wold be fine. D-rank is meant for niche mons that can only fit onto a handful of teams in most other VR threads and a seperate e rank is created for useless mons that are only ranked because they are in that tier via usage or banning [aka most of the current D rank mons] so changing d rank to e rank and putting some of the more niche mons that are currently ranked in the new d rank doesnt seem like a bad idea.

 

[Sweep]

I meant move everything down, including A- to B+, B+ to B, and so forth. Does that sound alright?

Latios staying A is fine with me.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

I actually think the current ranks work rather well if we move ttar, msab and arceus rock (maybe one or two more things) down to b+ and then a few b+ mons to b-mid.

 

[Lord Outrage]

The problem I can see is the huge difference between the mons that could be dropped from A- and the mons in B+.Like you can't put Darkceus,Giratina O or a mewtwo form with Foretress/Arceus fairy/Genesect that's not correct.