CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 10 - Moveset Discussion

[tehy]

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

not to like, beat y'all over the head with it, but I feel this bears repeating; both sets should take advantage of each other's existence.

i'm not at all a fan of cro for this reason; cro sets are like 'o my DD stopper can't win? well lemme just go to my cro stopper which prolly works at +2 as well), it has some limited purchase against teams where electrics are the only checks to CM but I feel that ultimately, teams can just assume the more threatening variant and make a course correction if wrong without being punished that much, which hurts this concept pretty immensely.

the discussion sets:

Ginganinja: doesn't go far enough IMO. I like it but meh

Taunt: i respect the both of you enough that maybe you did this just to show that taunt is a problem, mad props if so. if not, they're good sets but i don't think we want to go in those directions (taunt DD is actually semi-ok but it allows aim's set which is the major problem, and taunt dd is kind of a problem too i guess)

Also ; reflect type is pretty sweet. this may be a way to go

that said here's mine:

Alakazam @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Scald
- Flash Cannon / Giga Drain
- Calm Mind

here's the skinny:

firstly, offensive presence and bulk, letting you pose a threat to offensive teams; sub on the (dd counter) switch-in and fire away scalds (or CM up behind a sub). Since you've got a sub up, switching to (beefy physical threat) as you CM isn't that big of a deal. Against stall, nothing really 1v1s it (assuming Flash Cannon for the moment), and while it gets worn down, life is hard like that; good against stall but not shattering it either is the hope here.

Flash Cannon is just a general strong stab and is mostly for M-alt and unaware / MG CM clefable, i guess damaging boosting celebi is nice as well. Giga Drain is to tell Keldeo to go to hell, which is nice since it's such a hard counter to use otherwise but pretty meh outside of this single role.

DD: I like Wild Charge, knock off also cool but not as much. to be honest DD is more about the fourth slot, the two counter-busters i've seen are fine at surprising counters but kinda meh at sweeping so, meh.

 

[capefeather]

Taunt DD: I think that this set will be rather underpowered. It misses so much KOing capability from not holding a Life Orb (see: the damage calculations in the stat submission thread) that it has to bank on setting up multiple times. The set as listed also has Play Rough, throwing an unnecessary variable into the problem being presented (of Taunt DD possibly doing Taunt CM's job better). I think that it's counterproductive to approach this as, "Anything that possibly deviates from offensive DD and CM is anti-concept." If we're concerned about DD outclassing CM because of the existence of Taunt, we should also look at the possibility of DD outclassing CM because of the nonexistence of Taunt.

Taunt special attacker: Going off of what I said above, a set like this should only be a problem if it turns out to be better than all CM sets or all DD sets. I'm sure that this set will see some use, but I don't see it outclassing the boosting sets.

Not really sure what to think about SubCM or offensive DD's coverage options at the moment.

 

[Alfalfa]

Snobalt would you mind explaining to me why Taunt was removed on my CM set? Taunt limits a lot of the Calm Mind set's biggest hurdles, such as CroBro, Ferrothorn, and Chansey, giving it an easier time against Pokemon that would otherwise give it a hard time. I do not think Refresh is that necessary because our CAP is already quite resistant to most forms of status, except Paralysis, to which very few defensive Pokemon carry, and can easily be scouted for. Would you mind re-iterating why Taunt was replaced with Refresh?

 

[Empress]

Snobalt would you mind explaining to me why Taunt was removed on my CM set? Taunt limits a lot of the Calm Mind set's biggest hurdles, such as CroBro, Ferrothorn, and Chansey, giving it an easier time against Pokemon that would otherwise give it a hard time. I do not think Refresh is that necessary because our CAP is already quite resistant to most forms of status, except Paralysis, to which very few defensive Pokemon carry, and can easily be scouted for. Would you mind re-iterating why Taunt was replaced with Refresh?

Taunt isn't out of the picture. It's been crossed out for the time being because it needs more discussion; though Bughouse and capefeather make strong cases for why Taunt is necessary to stallbreak, I've been getting a large amount of opposition to the move as well, considering it screws with our checks and counters significantly (see: nyttyn's post in the Counters Discussion). Basically, Taunt is pending and at this rate it may go to a poll at the end of this process.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Movepool Submission
Name: Mono STAB DD Offense
Move 1: Iron Head
Move 2: Icicle Crash
Move 3: Wild Charge
Move 4: Dragon Dance
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 20 HP/252 ATK/28 DEF/208 Speed
Nature: Jolly
Item: Leftovers

• So this set aims to take advantage of good super effective coverage. We have the Classic bolt-beam combination of Electric+Ice neutral coverage with targeted Iron Head to improve super effective coverage.
• Lefties are here to offset the HP loss on Wild Charge.
• 208 Speed and Jolly gets us past Scarf Lando.
• Maximum ATK because we don't actually kill anything otherwise
• The defensive spread has 48 EVs left to use, so I distributed them with the intent to keep his health divisible by 8 for Leftovers, though if you're using the King's Rock, having the whole 48 in DEF is better.
• The only Pokemon with a resistance to our entire spectrum is Magnezone, which should counter the DD set anyway by the decision we made in counter discussion.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Movepool Submission

Name: DD + 3 Attacks
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Crabhammer
move 3: Iron Head / Wild Charge
move 4: Blaze Kick
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Splash Plate / Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Dragon Dance is pretty self-explanatory. It boosts Attack and Speed so that CAP 20 can sweep late-game. Our Ability (Water Veil) and bulk allow CAP20 to set up Dragon Dances on Pokemon that would otherwise be able to cripple it with Burn or knock it out with strong Physical moves.

Crabhammer is the best Physical Water-type attack in the game, and is imperative for the DD set to distinguish itself from other Water-type sweepers. With Splash Plate as its item, CAP 20 can knock out Thundurus without a boost after Stealth Rock, Raikou after a boost, and still lose to Magnezone even after boosting once. It allows us to definitively defeat bulky Grounds that could otherwise threaten massive damage while maintaining our threatlist.

Iron Head is reliable secondary STAB, although I wouldn't be shocked to see this replaced with something like Wild Charge to aid against Mega Slowbro and Azumarill. In fact, without Electric coverage, it will be difficult for DD CAP20 to reliably defeat Azumarill like our threatlist indicates it should.

Blaze Kick is the perfect fourth coverage move for CAP20. It allows the CAP to get past Physical walls that would otherwise jeopardize its viability while setting it apart from other sweepers like Mega Gyarados. It allows CAP20 to defeat Ferrothorn and still lose to Magnezone after a boost unless CAP20 is running Life Orb. It helps CAP20 defeat Mega Scizor while still giving it hard counters in Rotom-W and Zapdos. Blaze Kick is not enough for CAP20 to defeat Mega Metagross, who still KOs the CAP with Hammer Arm. It can't OHKO Skarmory, who still phazes us.

 

[Phione]

Movepool Submission
Name: Mono STAB DD Offense
Move 1: Iron Head
Move 2: Icicle Crash
Move 3: Wild Charge
Move 4: Dragon Dance
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 20 HP/252 ATK/28 DEF/208 Speed
Nature: Jolly
Item: Leftovers/King's Rock

• We have two choices for items, depending whether you want to take advantage of the high-flinch chance inherent of Iron Head+Icicle Crash, or whether you want Lefties to offset the HP loss on Wild Charge.

King's Rock does not add flinch chances to moves that already have said chance.

 

[NumberCruncher]

King's Rock does not add flinch chances to moves that already have said chance.

Sorry, you're correct. It has been fixed.

 

[tehy]

as i just said on irc : let's discuss all the DD coverage options, and which is best. I think we've had enough initial sets that it may be time to discuss this

Icicle Crash
Wild Charge
Blaze Kick
Knock Off
Play Rough
Zen Headbutt
Sky Uppercut
Seed Bomb
Bounce
(Taunt?)

i guess there's also the 2 move 1 stabs to talk about ; those being

Iron Head + Wild Charge + Icicle Crash

Waterfall + (second slash) Wild Charge + Icicle Crash

Waterfall + Play Rough + Taunt

Waterfall + Zen Headbutt + Blaze Kick

Iron Head / Waterfall + Bounce + Seed Bomb

(not crediting people because this took long enough as it is)

(anti-keldeo moves)
As i posted earlier I rather like Seed Bomb ; Wild Charge is cool to break through a lot of bulky waters, hurt Mandibuzz and Skarmory (both being ok checks to us), though recoil is a killer. Seed Bomb does have fringe benefits (emphasis on fringe) for the water/grounds that annoy cap otherwise. Play Rough is cool for also mandibuzz, i guess, though it's more of a neutral coverage alongside taunt and doesn't do too much otherwise (conkeldurr, i guess), it does hit Mega Altaria as well, overall more of a move i'd like alongside another coverage move (which again, admittedly was the idea). Zen Headbutt, super meh, i guess Conkeldurr, as well as M-venu, it's my least favorite otherwise. Bounce seems very meh although i guess drill peck is always an option; in fact, i prefer flying coverage to psychic coverage pretty strongly.

Outside of this not a big fan of blaze kick, i feel like the stuff it hits doesn't want to switch into CM that often, icicle crash likewise.

i've made my feelings on taunt clear

well you all should discuss this stuff too so get to it

 

[DougJustDoug]

Agreed we really need to settle on the key DD sets. We don't want slashitis on sets, so we need to narrow things down a bit. The previous post does a good job of cataloging a lot of what has already been suggested. Let's get some comments on various ways to consolidate/eliminate sets.

 

[Korski]

I like Wild Charge and Ice Punch/Icicle Crash as coverage for the DD set; they work well in combination and with either STAB, and Wild Charge works very well in combination with both STABs. Water/Steel/Electric is great, Water/Ice/Electric is great, Steel/Ice/Electric is okay, and they all have pros and cons compared to one another but are all viable enough to create unpredictability. What’s more, neither of these two coverage moves can provide an adequate 2-move attacking set that has room for Taunt, Substitute, or Recover, which I think cannot be said for things like Play Rough or [Fighting move]. I’m on the fence with Knock Off; I can see its positives, but I am undecided about what sort of avenues outside of sweeping that move could create. With Wild Charge, Seed Bomb seems a bit superfluous, but it is so similar in intent that I don’t have any feelings about whether it’s in the movepool or not. I cannot get behind Blaze Kick, Zen Headbutt, or Bounce, as the former neglects the separation of counters too much and the latter two are so specific they’d only by used if nothing else was available. IMO none of them should make it into the movepool if Ice, Electric and Grass are included. Here’s how I see the Dragon Dance set playing out:

Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Heavy Slam
Move 3: Iron Head / Ice Punch
Move 4: Wild Charge / Seed Bomb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: whatever gets settled on
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb

Basically, you run an anti-Water move in the fourth slot, and then either both STABs or one STAB + Ice Punch to do like a BoltBeam thing. I put Ice Punch on there instead of Icicle Crash because it wouldn’t have to be shoehorned into the movepool as hard and does pretty much everything Icicle Crash does except guarantee the OHKO on defensive Landorus-T w/SR. I mean, that’s a decent difference, but I wouldn’t say it’s necessary in a world where Gyarados can get away with Ice Fang. In reality, I predict that the dual-STABs + anti-Water-move set will be the dominant one, but so long as we don’t give the CAP any distracting coverage choices outside of these three move types, there should be enough options to maintain a healthy level of unpredictability without going into Energy Ball Jellicent territory.

Oh, speaking of Heavy Slam, I’d like to bring it up for discussion as a plausible slash alongside Iron Head or as a primary STAB alongside two coverage moves. I know it’s not a restricted move, but we have it within our power to make it competitively advantageous as a physical STAB. Since this Pokemon is visibly large and we could very reasonably have it weigh between 500 and 800 lbs. by Pokemon standards, there is a distinct possibility of the move being competitively relevant. In short, Heavy Slam offers a generous power boost in most cases that lets the DD set cover the sort of ground we want to cover with the Steel STAB (like OHKOing max/max Unaware Clefable and Choice Band Azumarill) without interfering with the Threats list. I ran some damage calculations using a +1 Jolly LO CAP20 and Hariyama (559.5 lbs) as a base.

calcs if you want

I’ll start with the upsides:

Heavy Slam vs. Serperior (100 BP): guaranteed OHKO

Iron Head: 82 - 97%; 63% chance to OHKO w/SR​

vs. Latios (100): guaranteed OHKO

Iron Head: 91 - 107%; 44% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO w/SR​

vs. Mega Lopunny (120): guaranteed OHKO

Iron Head: 88 - 104%; 19% chance to OHKO; 63% chance to OHKO w/SR​

vs. Gothitelle (120): guaranteed OHKO

Iron Head: 85 - 100%; 6% chance to OHKO, 81% chance to OHKO w/SR​

vs. 252/252+ Clefable (120): guaranteed OHKO

Iron Head: 67 - 80%; guaranteed 2HKO​

vs. Latias (120): guaranteed OHKO

Iron Head: 77 - 92%; 31% chance to OHKO w/SR​

vs. Mandibuzz (120): 62 - 73%; guaranteed 2HKO

Wild Charge: 62 - 73%; guaranteed 2HKO
Iron Head: 41 - 49%; guaranteed 3HKO, guaranteed 2HKO w/SR​

vs. Chansey (120): 70 - 83%; guaranteed 2HKO

Iron Head: 47 - 55%; 70% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed 2HKO w/SR​

vs. Azumarill (120): guaranteed OHKO

Iron Head: 75 - 88%; guaranteed 2HKO​

vs. 252/108+ Celebi / Mew (120): 69 - 81%; guaranteed 2HKO

Iron Head: 46 - 54%; 53% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed 2HKO w/SR​

These are all the OU-relevant Pokemon where the combination of Waterfall / Heavy Slam is stronger than Waterfall / Iron Head (mons that are OHKO’d by Iron Head or that resist both types are not listed). The first thing to notice is that Serperior, Latios, Mega Lopunny, Gothitelle, and Latias can no longer hope for a lucky damage roll and are cleanly OHKO’d, regardless of Stealth Rock. The second is that Unaware Clefable and Azumarill are both cleanly OHKO’d when Iron Head could only 2HKO. The third thing to notice is the significant increase in damage on Mandibuzz, Chansey, and Celebi/Mew, guaranteeing 2HKOs on all three and inching up close to a OHKO on Mandibuzz w/SR down (also notice how the damage from Heavy Slam is the same as from Wild Charge on Mandibuzz). Now for the downsides:

Heavy Slam vs. Mild/Lonely Kyurem-B (40 BP): 62 - 74%; guaranteed 2HKO

Iron Head: guaranteed OHKO​

vs. Dragonite (40): 37 - 43%; 95% chance to 2HKO w/SR

Iron Head: 73 - 86%; 81% chance to OHKO w/SR​

vs. Mega Venusaur (40): 20 - 24%; 22% chance to 4HKO w/SR

Iron Head: 39 - 46%; 27% chance to 2HKO w/SR​

vs. Chesnaught (60): 28 - 33%; guaranteed 4HKO w/SR

Iron Head: 37 - 44%; guaranteed 3HKO​

These are the only four OU-relevant Pokemon I could find where the combination of Waterfall / Heavy Slam was weaker than Waterfall / Iron Head. Despite the measly 40 BP, Heavy Slam still comes perilously close to OHKO-with-Stealth-Rock range on Kyurem-B, meaning any prior damage could functionally eliminate the drop in base power (although losing the guaranteed OHKO from Iron Head is a major drawback). Dragonite cannot be 2HKO’d by Heavy Slam if Multiscale is intact, and even still, Iron Head gets a reliable OHKO w/SR and a guaranteed 2HKO through Multiscale. Defensive Mega Venusaur is probably the biggest winner here, as it can shrug off Heavy Slam when normally it could reasonably fear being 2HKO’d by Iron Head if it’s not at full health. Finally, Chesnaught performs well against both moves, so the difference is not very significant there.

The way I see it, Heavy Slam has the potential to be a pro-concept application of the Crabhammer argument (let’s give it something stronger so it can be stronger). The difference is that it is not simply an across-the-board power boost and that its primary targets (Lati@s, Clefable, and Azumarill) are things we’ve wanted to be more confident in taking down all along.

 

[NumberCruncher]

So discussing the options we have for DD set:

Icicle Crash
Pros: It hits DD Dragon types that wouldn't hesitate to take an neutral attack to get set-up over top of us, and makes us less weak to Ferrothorn. It also works in conjunction with Wild Charge to give us good format coverage.
Cons: It's yet another move that does absolutely nothing against Water types and Steel types, which are the main weakness of this CAP in general.

Wild Charge
Pros: It's actually super effective against Water types, so that's out of the way. It also hits Defensive Flying types that aren't Ground, so that's a boon as well. It also combos well with Icicle Crash.
Cons: Unless it is being used with Icicle Crash, it opens up several holes in our offensive plan as far as neutral coverage goes. It's also has very little super effective coverage, only being good against Waters and a few Flyings. The recoil is also pretty nasty and can cut a sweep short

Blaze Kick
Pros: It absolutely destroys all of our Steel counters. It also hits Grass types, so that's a plus too.
Cons: Again, another move bad against Water. Also, it's actually pretty poor against anything that isn't Steel type. Then again, Steel is a large enough problem for CAP that it is worth considering.

Knock Off
Pros: The strongest move on the list in terms of straight Power, Knock off not only busts items up, but hits for a staggering 130 base Power. It also hits neutrally against a significant portion of the metagame, making it highly spammable.
Cons: It's arguable this might be too good a move for CAP. Blind Knock Off is rarely going to be a bad course of action, and even once CAP gives itself away as a DD set, its counters aren't going to want to have their items taken away.

Play Rough
Pros: It hit Fighting types, Mandibuzz, and Mega Sableye(Iron Head already covers the important Ice types). It also has reasonable neutral coverage, much like Knock Off.
Cons: Not many, honestly. It's a pretty solid move that isn't particularly busted.

Zen Headbutt
Pros: Most of the same ones listed before, but instead of hitting Dark hard, it doesn't hit Dark, which means Mega-Eye and Mandibuzz have to be answered with the CM set, which is reasonably pro-concept. It's not pro-concept enough that I would say not to have Play Rough as an option, but it's worth considering. Definitely don't add this if Play Rough is already in the movepool. It also hits the poison types in the format, which aren't highly prevalant, but it's still nice to have.
Cons: Like above, not really many.

Sky Uppercut
Pros: Another answer to Steel types, which is a plus as stated before. It's also good against Lopunny and hits Dark types like Bisharp and T-Tar harder than our STAB does.
Cons: When I say this is good against Steel types, I mean that it's good against a few Steel types. More Steel types than you would think in OU actually aren't weak to this move. It;s still really good against several non-Steel options, so it's worth considering.

Seed Bomb
Pros: It takes down every non-Steel counter to CAP, as well as most non-Steel checks. It hits for a significant amount and unlike Wild Charge, it doesn't need to take recoil to do this.
Cons: This is another move that might be too strong to be on CAP. It's better than Wild Charge in almost every way, and that's problematic. I'd almost argue that Wood Hammer is almost more balanced on CAP so that it absolutely has to take damage in order to hit a Water type with the DD set. Of course, the power on that move is also too ridiculous for CAP. Really, Grass coverage might not be doable.

Bounce
Pros: Much like the Zen Headbutt and Play Rough above, this one also takes down Fighting types.
Cons: Unlike Zen Headbutt and Play Rough though, this is where the pros end. Unless you've decided that Celebi really wants to take Iron Heads to the dome (Spoilers: it doesn't), there's no reason to have this as coverage. It's also poor against Rotom-W, which is problematic. It also give the opponent a free switch-in, which is even worse. Drill Peck is better, but even that's a bit nonsensical an add when you take into account that Zen Headbutt and Play Rough both hit at least as hard, have relevant effects, and are better situated against the meta.

Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Heavy Slam
Move 3: Iron Head / Ice Punch
Move 4: Wild Charge / Seed Bomb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: whatever gets settled on
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb

I actually like the Heavy Slam idea. I think we definitely should give more thought into that.

 

[jas61292]

I'd like to talk a bit about the DD set, and what options I think are good and bad. First, I think there are two super important things to keep in mind with this Pokemon:

1) Counters are key. I have seen a few posts mentioning moves and how they beat our counters as if doing so is a good thing. That is just wrong. Counters are selected because we need to be beaten by things. Now, the way the counters discussion ended, we don't have a real definitive list of what we want as counters. Even so, if you are going to talk about beating certain Pokemon who can counter us, it has to be in a context that acknowledges other Pokemon that can fill that role, otherwise we are on the wrong track.

2) Remember the concept. We are not here to make an ultimate CM and DD user. We are here to make an acceptable user of CM and DD that is notable because of the radically different counters of the two sets. As such, trying to deal with too much with either set is a bad thing. We should desire to be stopped by some of the same things that stop other DD and CM users, or else we risk being good due only to the sets, and not due to the unpredictability.

In accordance with the first point, I think it is important that we stay away from coverage moves that cover massive amounts of possible threats at once. The key offender in this case would be Fire moves. Our TL mentioned at the end of the threats discussion that ground moves wouln't be an option because they let us get by both Metagross and Magnezone, two key checks. Fire coverage does the exact same thing, while also threatening Ferrothorn and Skarmory, two Pokemon that I personally believe are good checks to have for a physical set in accordance with my second point above.

Also drawing from my second point, I think we should definitely avoid any moves that incentivize 2 move coverage. With respect to what has been suggested already, this means I think we should avoid the Play Rough/Taunt sets that have been suggested. Sets like this are the kind of set that attempt to differentiate us too much from the standard type of set we are trying to make. We don't want to be the unique stallbreaking DD user. We want to be a decent quality normal DD user. Now, this is not to say that either Taunt of Play Rough alone are bad, but that if the combination of the moves would incentivize something unusual for this role, I think we should avoid it, making the CAP have to sacrifice something to become more unique.

Finally, I want to state opposition to the move Crabhammer. Compared to waterfall, this move is a simple power boost, which we have no real need for. All it would really be doing is giving us an option that similar Pokemon do not posses, and as our goal is not to be better than similar Pokemon, this is rather counterproductive. Furthermore, for a DD set, the 20% finch chance of Waterfall is often quite helpful.

 

[Empress]

Loving the ramping up of discussion. After looking this over, I think Korski, DLC, and NumberCruncher (eat your heart out IRC frequenters) have hit the nail on the head in terms of DD + 3 Attacks for the most part. I'll update the tentative set to look like this:

Name: Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Heavy Slam
Move 3: Iron Head Heavy Slam / Ice Punch
Move 4: Wild Charge / Seed Bomb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb

Korski's idea of Heavy Slam was definitely a surprise, but he backed it up well so I think we should use it over Iron Head if we're to make this mon heavy.
EDIT: Err... scratch this. Despite the good discussion on IRC about Heavy Slam, I kinda jumped the gun on it. We're still proceeding with just Iron Head.

The moves I'd like to see some discussion on are Blaze Kick, Play Rough, and Knock Off. On one hand, they allow us to muscle past plenty of Pokemon that we wouldn't be able to before. Unfortunately, some of us have expressed concern that these moves could potentially be borked on CAP 20. Blaze Kick screws with our checks and counters big time, Play Rough has such good coverage that it leaves us with a free moveslot on DD (slightly less of a problem, but still something to note), and Knock Off is generically good and screws with our C&Cs by crippling them of their items, which I do not believe is necessarily the right avenue for this CAP to be sweeping. I'm leaning heavily towards saying no to Knock Off, partly towards no to Blaze Kick, and on the fence about Play Rough. Discuss away.

EDIT: Slightly ninja'd by jas61292; be sure to read what he said.

 

[Bughouse]

Heavy Slam is hardly some coup. It hits things like Azumarill and Latias harder (assuming an appropriately high weight) but can be easily tailored so that it's a tradeoff with Iron Head, where Iron Head hits things like Chesnaught or Kyurem-B harder. I see no reason not to allow it alongside Iron Head as long as the weight is in the ~500 lb range (Lapras is 485 :] )

I think Seed Bomb is absolutely a no. There is absolutely no reason for DD CAP to be easily denting Rotom-W. Wild Charge and Play Rough at least don't also hit Rotom-W in their goal of hitting Keldeo, etc. But CAP 20 really only needs one of these moves and Wild Charge feels like the right one. Why? I think if CAP 20 wants to be beating Kyurem-B, it should need Steel STAB. I'm also concerned that Waterfall/Play Rough together is really solid 2 move coverage and that CAP might be able to easily pull off a more supportive move (recovery). DD should overwhelmingly be 3 attacks. Wild Charge at least ensures that by not hitting Dragons or Grasses at all, CAP still needs something alongside Water/Electric if it wants those 2.

Blaze Kick I've already said no to. Anything that directly destroys Ferrothorn is a bad idea. It should be a solid check to DD 3 attacks as long as it is carrying Power Whip. Knock Off is more borderline here, as it cripples Ferrothorn and makes it easier for CAP 20 to sweep later in the match. It also might see use on CM Knock Off, like Clefable does sometimes. It's very good and can help both sets, but I'm undecided on if it's too good.


tl;dr
Heavy Slam Yes
Wild Charge Yes

Play Rough No
Seed Bomb No
Blaze Kick No

Knock Off ??

 

[Cretacerus]

There hasn't been much discussion on defensive boosting moves during the Concept Assessment, since they are only feasible in conjunction to a primary boosting option, and we wanted to keep the project focused during the process. So now that we have a fairly good view on the end result, it might be a good time to look back and consider whether we would like to add a third, complementary boosting move to the mix. Defensive boosting would certainly provide benefits for our concept in further diversifying checks and increasing unpredictability between the sets. However, the question is whether an additional boosting approach could perhaps effect the balance between our two primary sets a bit too much.

Moveset Submission
Name: CM Cotton Guard
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Cotton Guard
Ability: Heatproof / Aqua Veil
Item: Leftovers

• CM, Scald and Recover are the primary options, and the main tools of the set
• Cotton Guard handles many physical revenge killers which threaten the other sets, such as Keldeo, Garchomp, Excadrill, Swampert, Conkeldurr and Breelom. I also helps against other universally problematic Pokemon such as Kyurem-B, Mega Metagross, Mega Gyarados, Landorus and Gliscor. The set forgoes stallbreaking potential in order to better deal with offensive responses, something CAP looks quite susceptible to so far (DD can't cover all of them including the threats above).
• The potential defense boost gives this set lots of flexibility with EVs and nature. CAP can opt to invest more heavily into its Special Defense in order to handle Electric type checks better.
• Heatproof provides CAP with additional set-up opportunities, but protection from passive damage through Aqua Veil can be useful in the long run.

EDIT: The CM Reflect Type looks quite interesting so far, even though it's benefits are probably not consistently useful enough to see wide usage. An alternative option over Reflect Type on the set could perhaps be Magnet Rise, which addresses a different set of checks and helps against revenge killing. It works extremely well with our typing, though the limited duration time keeps it balanced.

 

[Albacore]

Hold on a minute, can we not discuss Wild Charge and Seed Bomb and the fact that they are both terrible ideas on this CAP? Seed Bomb more so than Wild Charge, but still, being able to threaten Water Types is something we really want to avoid on the DD set since that removes one of the CM set's key advanatges over it and gives DD a massive edge as a result (DD naturally has a big edge over CM since it's a lot harder to check due to the Speed boost, and there needs to be a way to limit it so that it doesn't become the best set by a large margin, making it walled by defensive Water types being a very good way to do that)

I'm opposed to Blaze Kick becuase I feel like CM and only CM should beat Ferrothorn, but I don't really think it's as bad as SE coverage on water types since it only targets a couple of Pokemon, and it does admittely help against Celebi which loses to CM and which we therefore would want DD to beat.

Knock Off I don't like since not only does it help the DD set break past Slowbro and other defensive answers that rely on Leftovers to handle it, but also makes a pure utility set of Scald, Knock Off, Recover and Toxic more viable, which we generally want to avoid.

I like Play Rough since it targets very specific Pokemon (MGyarados, Lopunny and Keldeo), all of which are solid answers to the CM set and help differentiate the two sets even further, and it doesn't enable the CAP beat stuff the CM set beats in return. I can see how the great neutral coverage with Waterfall can be seen as a problem, since that lets it run 2-move coverage more easily, but it doesn't explicitly mess up the C&C list unless we give it Taunt, and if we do give it Taunt then DD will probably use that no matter what coverage it gets, since it beats some of its its best checks (can even run monoattacking with recovery), so I believe Taunt is the real culprit here. I personally don't find DD/Waterfall/Play Rough/Recover to be anti-concept given that the 2 best DDers in OU, XZard and MAltaria, are this good specifically because they run recovery. And I don't think this set will be too good and overshadow DD since it still has its fair share of resists within the OU tier and and decently physically bulky Pokemon which can hit it relatively hard. And the fact that this set beats Toxic Slowbro and Alomomola kinda concerns me, but that's true of any set that runs recover+DD. And I'm not actually sure we can force the DD set to run 3 move coverage regardless given how much recovery is an advantage for a sweeper, especially one which relies on its bulk to set up. DD+STABs+Recovery isn't actually a bad set and while it's not quite as good as with Play Rough over Iron Head, Play Rough only enables it to hit a couple things more (Keldeo and Mega Gyadados specifically), both of which are relatively easy to weaken given thair lack of reliable recoveryand the fact that Gyarados is pre-mega weak to SR and post mega it and Keldeo are very vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, and MGyarados isn't that common anyway. So I can defenitely see people running this set, it's only slightly less good than Play Rough and has a few perks over it like hitting Grass types like Venusaur and Celebi harder. So though I have my concerns about Play Rough, I still want to see it on this CAP becuase it has a bunch of positives, and the problems it encourages will still probably be present even if we don't give it to the CAP.

 

[mphallor]

Addressing the discussion about moves that beat water types, while Wild Charge might be stealing Calm Mind's role on the surface, in reality it doesn't affect our matchups with OU water types that much. Just looking at the A rank or higher water types in the OU viability rankings:
Keldeo: Outspeeds and defeats Calm Mind no matter what. Dragon Dance is the only set with a chance against this, so might as well give it the coverage to win.

Azumarill: Heavy Slam is practically just as strong as Wild Charge here, so it doesn't really matter.

Gyarados: This is a Pokemon Calm Mind could potentially beat depending on when it gets the Scald burn. Overall, it's probably a good thing for one of the sets to beat it reliably.

Manaphy: The CM vs Tail Glow battle depends on when each mon starts boosting, but overall the speed of Tail Glow boosting as well as neutral coverage with Energy Ball are probably going to let Manaphy beat the Calm Mind set most times.

Rotom-W: +1 Wild Charge doesn't even 2HKO. Defensive Rotom will still be a counter to Dragon Dance, while Calm Mind can probably set up so long as Rotom isn't already in on it, which is exactly what we want.

Slowbro: This is definitely something Calm Mind beats that we are now giving Dragon Dance the opportunity to beat as well. Admittedly, collateral damage.

Starmie: +1 Heavy Slam almost OHKOs offensive Starmie after rocks, and can certainly do it after a little prior damage. Defensive Starmie is 2HKOd, but can't do anything back thanks to Water Veil, so DD would beat this with or without Wild Charge. The advantage is just reliability.

Politoed: Once again, Cap's STABs pick up the 2HKO and Politoed can't do anything meaningful back. the only difference is CAP would be taking recoil damage instead of one turn of Scald and two life orb hits.

So to summarize, a lot of water types Calm Mind can set up on are already beaten by Dragon Dance even without Wild Charge. And this is actually a good thing for us since both sets trying to setup on the same mons will make it harder to guess what set it is when Cap does come in.
Secondly, Wild Charge lets DD beat several Water types Calm Mind either loses to, or struggles against, with the only collateral damage being that Slowbro goes from countering DD to being setup fodder for both sets.
Lastly, Rotom-W (one of the most common Pokemon in OU) is still a counter to DD, while giving Calm Mind an extra turn of boosting if Rotom switches in on the first Calm Mind. Seed Bomb matches up almost identically to Wild Charge against water types, with Rotom being the only (albeit, very important) exception. This is why Wild Charge isn't as problematic as Seed Bomb; Seed Bomb will let DD get past one of the Pokemon that should want to come in on the Dragon Dance set.

tl;dr Wild Charge is good, Seed Bomb is bad.

 

[nyttyn]

Some comments:

• Please don't make assumptions about Heavy Slam's BP at this point in time. Consider it 40 BP, as it functionally is 40 BP until the end of CAP20.
• For this reason, Iron Head should be the primary slash if we require a steel type move on any physical set. If you want to argue for more BP, Meteor Mash exists.
• Bounce is a bad move. Please use Drill Peck instead if you want to argue for physical flying coverage.
• There is nothing wrong with the existence of a Stall Breaking set, and it should be added to the lists of movesets if we do allow taunt, as it will exist regardless of if we list it or not. Arguably though, taunt is too good.
• Furthermore, do not be worried about the existence of non-setup sets. We have access to Dragon Dance, and the holy grail of typing for Calm Mind with enough stats and a great enough ability to back it up - the setup sets will be the best, and there is nothing wrong with non-setup sets existing - though, they should not outshine our set-up set, no nothing crazy like u-turn, healing wish, defog, or parting shot.
• Lopunny gets dunked by Waterfall already, meaning Play Rough hitting Mega Lopunny is pointless to mention.
• Play Rough, on that note, plays havoc with our C&C list - it dunks Conkeldurr, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Garchomp, Mandibuzz, on top of providing fantastic neutral coverage with Waterfall.
• pls no fire coverage. Jas and bughouse, the user formerly known as srk1214 have both gone over why this is a bad idea, but i'm just restating it.
• cotton guard would be stupid on a calm mind set with access to recover and scald AND this typing. pls no to cotton guard we don't need a mon that auto wins against any team lacking taunt.
• I'd like to see more discussion on Wild Charge/electric coverage, as user Albacore has brought up some very good points against it,

 

[NumberCruncher]

Okay, at this point I'm going to actually bring back up the concept, since everybody here seems to have forgotten it.

Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in "completely different checks and counters". While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Note the fact it say "Different" counters. We don't want the best mon against the DD set to be the best mon against the CM set. Having Conk sit on our face healing while we stare at it impotently is anti-concept. Watching Keldeo switch in on our set-up turn and being forced out immediately is anti-concept. There's a reason that in the entire Stat Submission thread, nearly everybody started out with the calc against Lando-T. If both sets have an insanely predictable flaw that can always be exploited, people will exploit that weakness. There's no unpredictability when the best answer is the same in any case that comes up.

That being said, both sets do need answers. If the checks and counters get divided up Ferrothorn for DD and everything else for CM, nobody's going to play Calm Mind (Looking at you, Seed Bomb).

This also applies to the CM set. CM has gotten little to any discussion, and what few sets have been discussed are nearly always bare bones. I think the only half decent ones we've gotten are Elite Lord Sigma and hendrix's submissions, and even those aren't at the level of the DD sets we've been throwing around. The only coverage moves that have thus far been given to CAP on the CM side are Giga Drain, Freeze Dry, Ice Beam, and Shadow Ball, and none of them have even been considered for approval. Remember, CAP's 103/95/65 are pretty painfully substandard for a CM sweeper. It gets an insane amount of momentum from having Water/Steel typing, but that's not going to salvage it if he has a terrible movepool. I think we really do need to start looking at what we can do to elevate the CM set.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I'm going to have to agree on Number Cruncher's stance on Calm Mind here, and I think it might be a good idea to discuss coverage for that as well as the DD set. Obviously, Calm Mind and Scald are given moves, so its kinda situation of picking 2 moves out of:

Recover
Rest + Sleep Talk
Taunt
Giga Drain (Maybe, not sure)
Flash Cannon
Substitute
Freeze-Dry

 

[mphallor]

One move that could be potentially useful for the Calm Mind set is Vacuum Wave. Even after six boosts (which a good opponent is unlikely to ever allow) the move is still fairly weak, as evidenced by the calcs below.

+6 0 SpA Cap Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 119-141 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 0 SpA Cap Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 66-78 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+6 0 SpA Cap Vacuum Wave vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 240-284 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 0 SpA Cap Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The reason it would be useful however is because currently a lot of things that beat the Calm Mind set are able to do so no matter what health they're at. Even if Keldeo/Landorus/Metagross only has 1 HP left, it can still outspeed and kill CM sets. This will make it extremely difficult for CM to do its job in practice, since the opponent can play their Calm Mind Cap check recklessly all game and still be able to beat it when it matters. Our Dragon Dance set on the other hand (as well as virtually every good sweeper) can muscle past most of its checks if a team mate has sufficiently weakened them. Not allowing CM Cap to do the same could potentially make it ineffective in practice. By giving it Vacuum Wave, the opponent is at least forced to keep their CM check at a decent health so that it isn't picked off during a late game sweep. In the context of an actual moveset, Vacuum Wave would probably look like this:

Moveset Submission

Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover/Giga Drain
Move 4: Vacuum Wave
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold

• Calm Mind is to boost SpA and SpD
• Scald is the primary STAB and has a good burn chance
• Recover is the primary option in the third slot as it allows Cap to reliably heal itself and provides greater recovery. Giga Drain is a secondary option that can make boosting more difficult, but allows Cap to fit some form of recovery and an extra coverage move. It also makes Cap slightly less susceptible to Taunt users when at low HP
• Vacuum Wave is so Cap can pick off some of its checks that outspeed it. Don't overestimate its power, as even at +6 the move is still fairly weak (in fact, a super effective Vacuum Wave is weaker than a neutral Scald). The primary purpose is to finish off Keldeo, Landorus-T, Metagross, and other fast checks after Cap's team mates have already weakened them.

Even though Vacuum Wave is intended for beating things that are supposed to check Cap, I just want to emphasize how little damage it actually does. I personally wouldn't consider this "messing with our checks and counters" so much as it is just relieving pressure from Calm Mind Cap's team mates (and making the CM set more viable by extension).

 

[ginganinja]

Even though Vacuum Wave is intended for beating things that are supposed to check Cap, I just want to emphasize how little damage it actually does.

Thats nice sweetie, but if your opponent lets you get up to +6 so you can KO with Vacuum Wave before switching in his revenge killer, then hes prolly shit.

 

[Deck Knight]

Of the moves that Calm Mind could use for coverage, Freeze-Dry is by far the most interesting one because of its ability to crush both opposing Bulky Waters and the standard Ice-weak targets in a single move-slot. It hits Rotom-W hard, annihilates Water/Grounds and Gyarados on the switch (before Mega-Evolving). Combined with Recover, the CM/Scald/Freeze-Dry/Recover Set would be very threatening offensively and would be a great way to break it out from Dragon Dance by having it be explicitly offensively threatening to bulky waters rather than just win through attrition.

With that in mind if Dragon Dance has Drill Peck it is equipped to reliably deal with Conkeldurr, Keldeo, Amoonguss, Venusaur, and Celebi, all of whom are much more threatening to CM sets that don't run Freeze-Dry (and Conk, Venu, and Celebi because they are special invested or Ice neutral don't care as much).

There is one more move I would like to mention: Megahorn. What does Megahorn do for us? Well, for one it has a great power/accuracy/pp rating, and it hits a lot of things for neutral damage. Crucially though, Fighting and Flying types resist it, which synergizes well with our STABs and proposed coverage. Megahorn OHKO's Mega Gyarados if it M-Evolves after SR damage w/ only LO (assume +0 because of Intimidate). Megahorn has a chance to 2HKO Ferrothorn at +1 w/ LO and a layer of spikes, so it doesn't really (because of Protect) come close to that unless it gets to +2. Megahorn can 2HKO Rotom-W and Mega Slowbro at +1 w/ LO as well. So clearly, Megahorn is dangerous at +1, but really needs the boost, or great prediction skills to break through an opponent. Naturally, Megahorn can hit the aforementioned Grass/Poison types for solid neutral damage, and obliterates Celebi and the Latis, with minimal other effects on our C+C list. Either way, it's not borked vs our C+C list, is fairly reliable at 120/85 BP/Acc.

I think a combination of Freeze-Dry for CM, and Drill Peck + Megahorn for DD options would lend both sets a lot of offensive pressure while still letting them counter significantly different opponents. The only Pokemon that really lose out to both are Mega Gyarados and Mega Slowbro, and I don't see how that is bad really when they are potentially competing with CAP for the slot of DD Water type and CM Water type respectively.

EDIT:

Reviewing the goals for the OP:
By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Right now we have DD + 3 Attacks and Defensive Calm Mind under review.

So for DD+3 Attacks:

Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Name: Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Iron Head
Move 3: Iron Head / Icicle Crash / Megahorn
Move 4: Wild Charge / Drill Peck
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb

The purpose of the set being two decently powered moves in the top slots, followed by explicit coverage in the final slot. On balance this would work well because Keldeo is weak to Move 4 while Rotom-W blunts or outright resists it. Rotom-W doesn't resist either Megahorn or Wild Charge, and so those moves, either in combination or separately form the basis of the DD + 3 Attacks set. Icicle Crash isn't as strong a Iron Head or Megahorn, but combines exceptionally well with Wild Charge.

Even if Wild Charge is removed, if that is the opinion of the Movepool Leader / TL, the remainder of the listed options for this set can fill in the gap, without giving our CAP either too little or too much coverage. I would argue against removing Wild Charge though, because it prevents CM CAP from becoming a counter to DD CAP, which keeps an equilibrium between the sets.

Which brings me to CM. Admittedly this set is designed around Defense, but lets give it a whirl:

Defensive Calm Mind
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Freeze-Dry / Refresh / Taunt?
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers

The niche of this set is dependent on the 4th move. Flash Cannon removes Clefable, Freeze-Dry dominates opposing Bulky Waters and further scares off many Ground-types. Taunt is its own separate matter I won't address here. With Freeze-Dry in the picture, Refresh seems an inferior option to just running a Resttalk set with Heatproof.

Taken in combination, with or without Wild Charge CM handles the threat of Bulky Waters at significantly less risk, while Dragon Dance poses an immediate threat to more opponents based on coverage. Ground types can take advantage of Wild Charge with a free switchin and threaten CAP out with STAB EQ. Ultimately I think the combination of DD's threat level with Calm Mind's higher durability and ability to address more effectively Ferrothorn and Water/Ground Pokemon, the concept is ultimately achieved.

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to agree with the above posters in that CAP20 needs some good coverage/movepool options on the CM set to prevent the CM set being overshadowed by the DD set, which is why I'd like to suggest Future Sight as a possible coverage option on CAP20. Future Sight has the great advantage of not directly dealing with our universal threatlist or the CM specific threats that we should aim to keep, but it also prevents these threats from setting up on CAP20 - while it is true that CAP20 should be forced out by Keldeo, Breloom, and other threats to the CM set, this should not turn CAP20 into set-up bait for SubCM Keldeo, and Future Sight would give us a good coverage option on the CM+3 Attacks Set, although it is unlikely to find its way onto the Defensive CM set or the Cro-CM set, if these sets are implemented.