Metagame np: Stage 6 - The Boys Are Back

[HJAD]

/me is .mad

now to start off this complete shitstorm that is going to end up being my post i'd like to say something. Some of you may find this post to be me just being mad after my loss today and trying to get something banned. If you think this, I say good on you, you're right, something did make me angry today and I plan on doing something about it. If you think that my post is just gonna be super bias and just me complaining then go ahead and stop reading and save yourself from the wall of text that is about to come forth.

For anyone that doesn't already know i'm talking about Suspecting SmashPass.

Now the idea of suspecting SmashPass is by no means a new subject. It's been brought up before and the idea never really gained any traction, mainly I believe because the people that brought it up weren't bringing it up for the right reasons. The users that brought it up before talked about how outright broken SmashPass was, when in reality that isn't the case at all. SmashPass has its counters and ways to beat it, the real reason that smashpass should be at least suspected is due to how stupidly uncompetitve and matchup-based it is. The fact is that if you dont have Haze, or a phasing move, you are put at such a severe disadvantage right from team preview, so much so that 9 times out of 10 the smashpass player wins. While there is some room for the non-smashpasser to play around, SmashPass puts the opposing player at such a large initial disadvantage that the opposing player must be absolutely perfect, and even then if the SmashPass player knows what they are doing it won't matter anyways. SmashPass has also been losing a lot of its counters since the end of XY. Dragalge and Qwilfish leaving, Magneton joining the tier and the gain of Sucker Punch into Huntail are all factors that contribute to SmashPass getting better since the end of XY. With Qwil and Drag gone, the only viable haze users i can think of as of now are Cryogonal and Mantine, the former dies to Huntail Waterfall and the latter is declining in usage since the ban of Typhlosion and Mantine in favour of Pelipper which has reliable recovery as well as acts as a better check to fighting types. Adding Sucker Punch to Huntail was a huge boost as it allows Huntail to get by former checks like Rotom and other fast choice scarfers. Magneton's drop is another great advantage because it is now one of the best recipients to SmashPass due to it's great bulk, power, and Dual STAB Coverage. It also synergizes extremely well with Xatu which is the ideal recipient. Now you may be thinking that the Fletchinder drop is really anti-SmashPass because it can't be outsped and can revenge things with priority Acrobatics. Well thats not really the case because Fletchinder can't beat common SmashPass recipients like Kangaskhan, Magneton and Xatu 1v1 and it cant even come in on Huntail without risking taking a Waterfall while doing under half unboosted to 252/0 Huntail without screens. Smashpass also has all the great recipients that call NU their home like Magneton, Kangaskhan, Samurott, Torterra, Xatu etc.

Even with all this stuff that has made SmashPass even better since ORAS, I still believe that its not its not broken in the truest sense of the word. I believe that the reason SmashPass should be suspected is due to it's intensely uncompetitive nature and how extremely matchup-based it makes this game. Thanks to atomicllamas for finding a thread that talks about uncompetitiveness in general here. I find that when I think about SmashPass, I believe that it can be considered "uncompetitive" is because it takes control of how the game is played and the game's events from the moment that you lay eyes on your opponent's team. The game goes from, "how do I set up my win condition and wear down my opponent's team to where I can win" to "how do I prevent Huntail from passing". In games against teams that lack SmashPass counters, it forces the opposing player to make really risky and aggressive plays, just to keep from straight losing to it. The fact that running this specific playstyle can put you at such a large advantage that if forces you to play a certain way just screams uncompetitive to me.

I think that the main reason SmashPass has been shot down for suspect is because of how truly uncommon it is. I find it astounding that the ladder isn't infested with SmashPass teams due to how incredibly easy it is to get wins with. I feel that this is more of a product of the NU community and how we've already sort of "tabooed" it. I just implore everyone to remember that usage does not equal viability. Just because people aren't using SmashPass frequently, doesn't mean that it's unhealthy for the tier when it is being used. This is similar in a sense, to the other former QuickPass abuser in NU: Combusken (although at a much larger scale) in the sense that CombuskenPass was not very common at all early on in NU Alpha. Even after people found out about Combusken and how cancerous it really was, it wasn't really as commonplace as one would expect to find for such an unfair, matchup based strategy. I'm going to go a little off the wall here and make an irl comparison that I believe might hold some weight here. Pretty much everyone on this site lives in a 1st or 2nd world country and lives a relatively comfortable lifestyle compared to how the world is in some countries. We are lucky enough to not be concerned with issues like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger, however we do acknowledge their existence in our world. Now in no way, am I comparing how incredibly awful stuff like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger to an uncompetitive strategy in Pokemon, the point i'm simply trying to make is that because these things don't affect us in our everyday lives, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. People forget about things that they aren't exposed to, it's the nature of how things go. Friends grow apart if they don't see each other a lot. Why do you think subjects in school are so hard after each grade even though people are in school for 10 months of the year? Because we take the summer and aren't exposed to school work which in turn, makes it so hard to remember what the hell we learned last year. I propose that we suspect SmashPass now in order to finally resolve this once and for all instead of letting it sit and fester for longer than it needs to.

I'm gonna end this long ass post by reminding people that we agreed earlier as a tier to more open suspect testing in order to try and keep the tier as fun and as competitive as possible. By continuing to sit back and not even consider a suspect to SmashPass, we are doing the exact opposite of that. If the community really doesn't see SmashPass as uncompetitive then it's done and over with, at least we don't have to keep bringing it up every couple months until someone else realizes how dumb this strategy is. haha what even are AP exams fuck that i have to write an essay about pokemon.

/me is .lessmad and .stillbad

tl;dr: SmashPass is too uncompetitive and too matchup based to be healthy for the tier. It has gotten better since the beginning of ORAS and just because it's uncommon doesn't mean that it doesn't still exist. Suspect it pl0x

now, I'm not gonna try and take credibility away from this post, I think SmashPass is stupid and broken as much as the next guy and I would fully support a suspect / ban test here. However I would like to highlight some of your points which are at least dodgy to say the least.

With a lot of your post, I feel you speak from your heart than from your head, by no means is this a bad thing, but it means you might exemplify a situation maybe unfairly.

"when in reality that isn't the case at all. SmashPass has its counters and ways to beat it, the real reason that smashpass should be at least suspected is due to how stupidly uncompetitve and matchup-based it is. "
Here is a quote from your post, now, I'm gonna argue that the exact same thing can be argued with. If you have a hyper offense team, or a team with no priority, or a team with grass/water resists, aren't you gonna lose 10/10 times to sun/rain?
The answer is yes, and the same point is what you bring about with SmashPass, the fact that at how matchup based the game becomes. Weather teams are also matchup based, if you have a good matchup with sun/rain 9/10 times you win. Now, yeah, I might get flack for bringing up weather, which my many of you would be considered competitively unviable, doesn't see tonnes of usage (like SmashPass) and I feel like a similar things are happening between the two.

You talk about how SmashPass is "tabooed" and look down upon as a play style, which results in its low usage, in reality, its the same thing with weather, every gets a big hullabaloo when they see a rain/sun team and they see they don't have a good matchup. Other times, you find you have many devices at your presence to stop the weather, so your happy. The exact Same thing can be said for SmashPass.

Its also funny how you talk about: "Now in no way, am I comparing how incredibly awful stuff like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger to an uncompetitive strategy in Pokemon, the point i'm simply trying to make is that because these things don't affect us in our everyday lives,"
The amount of times I have been called "AIDS" or a "douchebag" or a "twat" for bringing a weather team is unbelievable. Weather is something that everyone has to prepare for, and the exact same thing can be said with SmashPass, e.g. bringing a power sucker puncher, keep offensive pressure on the Uxie before it gets screens, setting up in tandem with Uxie so that when it mementos you still have a +2 or +4 bp move to hurt the xatu, or it can be as single as bringing common priority to a match. I know, if I was playing a liepard, or anything with encore that would be hella annoying. Especially to SmashPass. So when I see, people get annoyed when they lose to SmashPass, (or even weather for that matter) its simple because you didn't prepare, if you do prepare, you don't lose, simple as that. Remember NULT, when Teddeh played I'm Bi...Sharp in the finals? He knew Bisharp was gonna bring rain what did he do? Prepare for it. His team wasn't bad vs the rest of meta and beat bisharp.

Its all about preparation. When you build a team you have to factor in all play styles, if you don't prepare for one you are going to be at a disadvantage when you play it.

Don't take any offense from this, I'm just trying to compare weather to SmashPass because when you look closer, they are very similar play styles and won't be a problem if you prepare from them suitably :]

Still all for a SmashPass suspect

 

[Sir Azelf]

Lanturn is your best bet for both of them n_n
for pyroar, it's easily worn down by hazards but it is a very good core breaker and not a lot of people prepare for the coverage it has, your best bet is a pokemon like lanturn, hariyama, mantine and for magneton just use stunfisk, lanturn or even spdef quag if you can fit it on your team.

The problem with that is that both have HP Grass, so Stunfisk, Lanturn and Quagsire just dont cut it vs mag, especially against Analytic. Hariyama, Mantine and Lanturn all get massacred by Specs Hyper Voice from Pyroar. I guess Mantine does ok but its SR weak which is shaky imo especially when its role is a defogger and it cant switch into some of the most common rock setters in the tier leads to a recipe for disaster. :(

 

[Teddeh]

The problem with that is that both have HP Grass, so Stunfisk, Lanturn and Quagsire just dont cut it vs mag, especially against Analytic. Hariyama, Mantine and Lanturn all get massacred by Specs Hyper Voice from Pyroar. I guess Mantine does ok but its SR weak which is shaky imo especially when its role is a defogger and it cant switch into some of the most common rock setters in the tier leads to a recipe for disaster. :(

magneton runs hp ground over grass, however it doesn't stop the fact that magneton usually uses specs for power or the analytic boost, by which lanturn can live a hit and then make a switch accordingly. Just by having lanturn on your team, your opponent doesn't want to click its main stabs since they are resisted and hence nullifies the potential damage magneton can cause, not to mention its easily outsped by a lot of common threats in this tier. hyper voice is a 3 hit ko on all of the three that i mentioned and usually pyroar can't switch in on most things during games. Along with this, it's easily worn down with hazards and revenge killed by top tier threats such as sneasel, tauros and archeops which are on nearly every team.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The problem with that is that both have HP Grass, so Stunfisk, Lanturn and Quagsire just dont cut it vs mag, especially against Analytic. Hariyama, Mantine and Lanturn all get massacred by Specs Hyper Voice from Pyroar. I guess Mantine does ok but its SR weak which is shaky imo especially when its role is a defogger and it cant switch into some of the most common rock setters in the tier leads to a recipe for disaster. :(

Munchlax hard walls both Magneton and Pyroar. But you'd need to run RestTalk with EQ and Return/Body Slam otherwise Magneton will just spam Flash Cannon and hope for SpDef drops. Not that EQ is bad of course, but Whirlwind is nice to have.

And yeah Lanturn is a garbage check to either of them:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Grass/Ground vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 180-214 (44.8 - 53.3%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 174-205 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Same with Hariyama:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 192-226 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 163-193 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

But you know it was to be expected that Magneton was going to dominate the tier. So we have to adapt our teams until it leaves the tier again. Same with Pyroar and Magmortar. Just run really fast hyper offense, forget about balanced teams and you'll be fine.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

now, I'm not gonna try and take credibility away from this post, I think SmashPass is stupid and broken as much as the next guy and I would fully support a suspect / ban test here. However I would like to highlight some of your points which are at least dodgy to say the least.

With a lot of your post, I feel you speak from your heart than from your head, by no means is this a bad thing, but it means you might exemplify a situation maybe unfairly.

"when in reality that isn't the case at all. SmashPass has its counters and ways to beat it, the real reason that smashpass should be at least suspected is due to how stupidly uncompetitve and matchup-based it is. "
Here is a quote from your post, now, I'm gonna argue that the exact same thing can be argued with. If you have a hyper offense team, or a team with no priority, or a team with grass/water resists, aren't you gonna lose 10/10 times to sun/rain?
The answer is yes, and the same point is what you bring about with SmashPass, the fact that at how matchup based the game becomes. Weather teams are also matchup based, if you have a good matchup with sun/rain 9/10 times you win. Now, yeah, I might get flack for bringing up weather, which my many of you would be considered competitively unviable, doesn't see tonnes of usage (like SmashPass) and I feel like a similar things are happening between the two.

You talk about how SmashPass is "tabooed" and look down upon as a play style, which results in its low usage, in reality, its the same thing with weather, every gets a big hullabaloo when they see a rain/sun team and they see they don't have a good matchup. Other times, you find you have many devices at your presence to stop the weather, so your happy. The exact Same thing can be said for SmashPass.

Its also funny how you talk about: "Now in no way, am I comparing how incredibly awful stuff like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger to an uncompetitive strategy in Pokemon, the point i'm simply trying to make is that because these things don't affect us in our everyday lives,"
The amount of times I have been called "AIDS" or a "douchebag" or a "twat" for bringing a weather team is unbelievable. Weather is something that everyone has to prepare for, and the exact same thing can be said with SmashPass, e.g. bringing a power sucker puncher, keep offensive pressure on the Uxie before it gets screens, setting up in tandem with Uxie so that when it mementos you still have a +2 or +4 bp move to hurt the xatu, or it can be as single as bringing common priority to a match. I know, if I was playing a liepard, or anything with encore that would be hella annoying. Especially to SmashPass. So when I see, people get annoyed when they lose to SmashPass, (or even weather for that matter) its simple because you didn't prepare, if you do prepare, you don't lose, simple as that. Remember NULT, when Teddeh played I'm Bi...Sharp in the finals? He knew Bisharp was gonna bring rain what did he do? Prepare for it. His team wasn't bad vs the rest of meta and beat bisharp.

Its all about preparation. When you build a team you have to factor in all play styles, if you don't prepare for one you are going to be at a disadvantage when you play it.

Don't take any offense from this, I'm just trying to compare weather to SmashPass because when you look closer, they are very similar play styles and won't be a problem if you prepare from them suitably :]

Still all for a SmashPass suspect

I disagree, I think Can-Eh-Dian's logic is perfectly fine.

There are a few differences between SmashPass and ordinary playstyles, so you can't just argue that it's an ordinary playstyle you have to cater to.

First, the way you "counter" Smashpass is by using specific movesets and/or Pokemon that don't just fit onto any team. You'll have to cater Whirlwind Pokemon, Haze Pokemon that aren't weak to the Smashpasser's coverage moves. Not a lot of teams can even accommodate one of these stops to SmashPass, since a) I don't think you would call Haze Cryogonal common or good enough to fit onto almost every team, and b) they're really limited and specific anyway. It's different from having a Water resist or a Fire resist, because every single team needs one of these or they'll just lose every match anyway. There's one of the differences between SmashPass and ordinary playstyles: you can prepare for hyper offense by including a few fast Pokemon, you can prepare for sun by having a mixture of something like a fat tank and some priority or even Lilligant, but to prepare for Smashpass you'll need this one specific moveset, which I wouldn't say is reasonable to expect on every team.

Second, the other main problem Can was trying to highlight was the lack of counterplay against Smashpass. Against ordinary playstyles, if you happen to have a bad matchup, you can still eke out a win if you play well (assuming your team isn't absolute shit). On the other hand Smashpass has very little counterplay; you'll probably need to make ridiculously difficult double switches into a sleep or Taunt Pokemon, or predict well with your Prankster Encore, and the control is largely in the Smashpass player's hands given that he can choose when to send in his Smashpasser. Not to mention if you lack one of those shakier checks to Smashpass, you'll be unable to beat it at all because of how easy it is to set up behind screens + Memento.

-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gorebyss through Light Screen: 186-220 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gorebyss through Reflect: 150-177 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO (this isn't even with Memento o_o)

I have won against rain and sun teams before without having to prepare a specific Pokemon to stop it, and I can't say the same for Smashpass because I have to play perfectly in that case to get around this.

And in turn, this makes Smashpass extremely easy to play with. As long as the opponent doesn't have one of the counters to Smashpass, there is very little the opponent can do to stop the strategy from being executed.

 

[Ares]

Scorp you forgot an important calc:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Wacan Berry Xatu through Light Screen: 153-180 (47.6 - 56%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-231365310
the replay that started all of this.

I wouldn't mind seeing smashpass go. Its p easy against most teams: Set up rocks, setup screens, memento, smash, pass, win.

 

[Disjunction]

now, I'm not gonna try and take credibility away from this post, I think SmashPass is stupid and broken as much as the next guy and I would fully support a suspect / ban test here. However I would like to highlight some of your points which are at least dodgy to say the least.

With a lot of your post, I feel you speak from your heart than from your head, by no means is this a bad thing, but it means you might exemplify a situation maybe unfairly.

"when in reality that isn't the case at all. SmashPass has its counters and ways to beat it, the real reason that smashpass should be at least suspected is due to how stupidly uncompetitve and matchup-based it is. "
Here is a quote from your post, now, I'm gonna argue that the exact same thing can be argued with. If you have a hyper offense team, or a team with no priority, or a team with grass/water resists, aren't you gonna lose 10/10 times to sun/rain?
The answer is yes, and the same point is what you bring about with SmashPass, the fact that at how matchup based the game becomes. Weather teams are also matchup based, if you have a good matchup with sun/rain 9/10 times you win. Now, yeah, I might get flack for bringing up weather, which my many of you would be considered competitively unviable, doesn't see tonnes of usage (like SmashPass) and I feel like a similar things are happening between the two.

You talk about how SmashPass is "tabooed" and look down upon as a play style, which results in its low usage, in reality, its the same thing with weather, every gets a big hullabaloo when they see a rain/sun team and they see they don't have a good matchup. Other times, you find you have many devices at your presence to stop the weather, so your happy. The exact Same thing can be said for SmashPass.

Its also funny how you talk about: "Now in no way, am I comparing how incredibly awful stuff like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger to an uncompetitive strategy in Pokemon, the point i'm simply trying to make is that because these things don't affect us in our everyday lives,"
The amount of times I have been called "AIDS" or a "douchebag" or a "twat" for bringing a weather team is unbelievable. Weather is something that everyone has to prepare for, and the exact same thing can be said with SmashPass, e.g. bringing a power sucker puncher, keep offensive pressure on the Uxie before it gets screens, setting up in tandem with Uxie so that when it mementos you still have a +2 or +4 bp move to hurt the xatu, or it can be as single as bringing common priority to a match. I know, if I was playing a liepard, or anything with encore that would be hella annoying. Especially to SmashPass. So when I see, people get annoyed when they lose to SmashPass, (or even weather for that matter) its simple because you didn't prepare, if you do prepare, you don't lose, simple as that. Remember NULT, when Teddeh played I'm Bi...Sharp in the finals? He knew Bisharp was gonna bring rain what did he do? Prepare for it. His team wasn't bad vs the rest of meta and beat bisharp.

Its all about preparation. When you build a team you have to factor in all play styles, if you don't prepare for one you are going to be at a disadvantage when you play it.

Don't take any offense from this, I'm just trying to compare weather to SmashPass because when you look closer, they are very similar play styles and won't be a problem if you prepare from them suitably :]

Still all for a SmashPass suspect

If there were good ways of preparing for SmashPass that could fit on a team while filling other very useful roles then I doubt there would be any issues. However, there are no solid answers to SmashPass outside of Haze Quagsire, Haze Mantine, and I guess "playing offensively" with Taunt users which shouldn't be used as an argument because of the validity of the prediction argument. For the former two, they are only used to counter SmashPass and are bad otherwise seeing as Haze Mantine beats nothing else and Quagsire should beat most any set up sweeper regardless of Haze. Fast Scarfmons don't even do the trick anymore because of Huntail's Sucker Punch. Priority is iffy because of Huntail's bulk. There are no priority users in the game that can switch in and threaten Huntail at +2. Offensive pressure on Huntail is fine, but Huntail only needs one turn to set up. If it's a well made team, you should have some bulky threats in the back to Baton Pass into to take on whatever COULD threaten Huntail.

And, for the record, I hate weather too, which I'm sure most people aren't surprised about. Weather is another very similar playstyle that makes matches formulaic, boring, and beyond challenging and it's only gotten worse with the drop of Kabutops. Speaking directly to HJAD here, but do you know how many people I've heard say "Wow, thanks to whoever put that Rain team in the Sample Teams! Sure made reqs easy!" Weather takes a very low amount of skill to use. It's important to know when to set up weather and when not to, but that's about all you have for any "skill based" thinking with weather. You have three to four mons with incredible offensive pressure, perfect neutral coverage, and the ability to outspeed the entirety of your opponent's team (barring base 95+ scarfers which are all bad except for Jynx) for AT LEAST 16 turns of the entire battle. Having a Water resist is cute, sure, but none of the Water resists in the tier right now beat any of the Rain abusers (I'm not making myself weak to every other team that runs Magnets and running Ferroseed.) You're right when you said SmashPass and Weather are comparable, because they are comparable in how they dictate the game by forcing players to rely on iffy, aggressive switches either to prevent that one turn that will end the game or in an attempt to stall out more rain turns. I'm not calling for a weather suspect right now, but it's very similar to SmashPass and worth discussing in the future imo.

Also ily HJAD bby just trying to remove what I see is awful from the meta. Please stop using rain too q.q

 

[Evan.]

now, I'm not gonna try and take credibility away from this post, I think SmashPass is stupid and broken as much as the next guy and I would fully support a suspect / ban test here. However I would like to highlight some of your points which are at least dodgy to say the least.

With a lot of your post, I feel you speak from your heart than from your head, by no means is this a bad thing, but it means you might exemplify a situation maybe unfairly.

"when in reality that isn't the case at all. SmashPass has its counters and ways to beat it, the real reason that smashpass should be at least suspected is due to how stupidly uncompetitve and matchup-based it is. "
Here is a quote from your post, now, I'm gonna argue that the exact same thing can be argued with. If you have a hyper offense team, or a team with no priority, or a team with grass/water resists, aren't you gonna lose 10/10 times to sun/rain?
The answer is yes, and the same point is what you bring about with SmashPass, the fact that at how matchup based the game becomes. Weather teams are also matchup based, if you have a good matchup with sun/rain 9/10 times you win. Now, yeah, I might get flack for bringing up weather, which my many of you would be considered competitively unviable, doesn't see tonnes of usage (like SmashPass) and I feel like a similar things are happening between the two.

You talk about how SmashPass is "tabooed" and look down upon as a play style, which results in its low usage, in reality, its the same thing with weather, every gets a big hullabaloo when they see a rain/sun team and they see they don't have a good matchup. Other times, you find you have many devices at your presence to stop the weather, so your happy. The exact Same thing can be said for SmashPass.

Its also funny how you talk about: "Now in no way, am I comparing how incredibly awful stuff like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger to an uncompetitive strategy in Pokemon, the point i'm simply trying to make is that because these things don't affect us in our everyday lives,"
The amount of times I have been called "AIDS" or a "douchebag" or a "twat" for bringing a weather team is unbelievable. Weather is something that everyone has to prepare for, and the exact same thing can be said with SmashPass, e.g. bringing a power sucker puncher, keep offensive pressure on the Uxie before it gets screens, setting up in tandem with Uxie so that when it mementos you still have a +2 or +4 bp move to hurt the xatu, or it can be as single as bringing common priority to a match. I know, if I was playing a liepard, or anything with encore that would be hella annoying. Especially to SmashPass. So when I see, people get annoyed when they lose to SmashPass, (or even weather for that matter) its simple because you didn't prepare, if you do prepare, you don't lose, simple as that. Remember NULT, when Teddeh played I'm Bi...Sharp in the finals? He knew Bisharp was gonna bring rain what did he do? Prepare for it. His team wasn't bad vs the rest of meta and beat bisharp.

Its all about preparation. When you build a team you have to factor in all play styles, if you don't prepare for one you are going to be at a disadvantage when you play it.

Don't take any offense from this, I'm just trying to compare weather to SmashPass because when you look closer, they are very similar play styles and won't be a problem if you prepare from them suitably :]

Still all for a SmashPass suspect

I mean weather is pretty matchup based, but nowhere near as bad as SmashPass is. I think that Scorps post sums up my feelings perfectly. The fact that you can actually counterplay against weather teams and win, even when you dont have a great matchup is what separates the two. Weather is nowhere near as formulaic and as easy to play with as SmashPass is, and i think you over exaggerate how easy it is to win, especially against good players. I think that the SPL replay between The Goomy and Blastral is a really good example of this. Goomy brought rain and even though he ended up winning, it was still a great game that came down to which cacturne set Blast had brought. Do you honestly think that if Goomy had brought SmashPass the gamd would have been that close, or even that entertaining?

You also completely missed the point of me mentioning aids and stuff which tells me that you really didnt read the post and that you're just calling me out for the sake of calling me out, especially since you agree with the premise of my post. If you want to call my post out and call my points "dodgy" i'd suggest reading the whole thing through next time >.>

 

[HJAD]

I mean weather is pretty matchup based, but nowhere near as bad as SmashPass is. I think that Scorps post sums up my feelings perfectly. The fact that you can actually counterplay against weather teams and win, even when you dont have a great matchup is what separates the two. Weather is nowhere near as formulaic and as easy to play with as SmashPass is, and i think you over exaggerate how easy it is to win, especially against good players. I think that the SPL replay between The Goomy and Blastral is a really good example of this. Goomy brought rain and even though he ended up winning, it was still a great game that came down to which cacturne set Blast had brought. Do you honestly think that if Goomy had brought SmashPass the gamd would have been that close, or even that entertaining?

You also completely missed the point of me mentioning aids and stuff which tells me that you really didnt read the post and that you're just calling me out for the sake of calling me out, especially since you agree with the premise of my post. If you want to call my post out and call my points "dodgy" i'd suggest reading the whole thing through next time >.>

You used aids, malaria as a reference to SmashPass. You referenced how SmashPass might not be common, but its still there and still a problem. I completely agree with this point.

However, one can similarly bring about the same point for weather, which is what i was bringing up in my post.

for the sake of fairness I'm trying to counter argument, don't shoot the messenger. You have to admit, SmashPass and weather are about both as mindless as each other, right?

 

[Orphic]

iplaytennislol and others:

I completely take back what I said about Kabutops, some of my points still stand but I completely underestimated it's abilities. As the metagame has started to take shape so that each team runs at least one, mostly 2+ Fletchinder/Magneton checks, Kabutops can take advantage of a lot of these and do a lot of damage on its own with the very nice Water/Rock coverage. Examples that are common: Stunfisk which gets OHKO'd by Kabutops, Lanturn when cannot switch in on a Stone Edge and live the second one most of the time. Regirock and other obvious rock types are bopped easily by Kabutops, meaning Rhydon's reign of terror hasn't quite materialized, also because of Magneton, but mainly because Kabutops brings Aqua Jet which means no matter how fast your Rhydon is, you can't outrun Kabutops. Once we add on Rapid Spin to this, Kabutops definitely deserves a high ranking as the whole way we set up our teams defensively is changing as we speak.

How I've been dealing with Kabutops (and having a lot of fun too):

Cacturne @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Sucker Punch
- Destiny Bond

Does Kabutops outspeed? Yes. Does Kabutops OHKO with Stone Edge? It would! Does the Kabutops user think they can outspeed and OHKO me? YES! Anyway this has been working as a good Kabutops lure, and if your sash is broken, Sucker Punch allows you to wear it down a bit more for something to revenge kill it.

I'd also like if we could all hype about this thing just a little bit more please, I still don't feel, despite everyone's best efforts, it's getting the recognition it deserves:

Sneasel @ Life Orb/Choice Band/Eviolite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick/Pursuit/Swords Dance

With rotom growing in popularity (it deals with all the drops effectively, bar Specs Magneton, but can handle the other sets), even more reason to use Sneasel since you don't have Seismitoad to check it! Anyway I'm short on time and am not going to tell you guys things you already know about Sneasel and why to use it, just do okay, you will see results immediately.

 

[Aasgier]

Poliwrath counters Kabutops and is a check to weakened Magneton. If you go physical, make sure to run Brick Break and/or Earthquake! Also make sure you outrun Specs Magneton, as well as that you have an Electric immunity that tempts it into using its Steel move (Piloswine, Golem, Rhydon).

 

[honchkrow]

Poliwrath counters Kabutops and is a check to weakened Magneton. If you go physical, make sure to run Brick Break and/or Earthquake! Also make sure you outrun Specs Magneton, as well as that you have an Electric immunity that tempts it into using its Steel move (Piloswine, Golem, Rhydon).

In order to outrun magneton you have to run near max speed. At that point you aren't a check to kabutops.

 

[Punchshroom]

Pretty sure Poliwrath can function as a Kabutops counter / check regardless of its investment, but if you're going for an offensive Poliwrath physical isn't going to be worth it; special Wrath has moves with higher BP (which equates to better power since its offensive stats do not differ by much), and you even get a nice bonus in priority STAB Vacuum Wave.

Now onto the main subject in a SmashPass suspect or even quickban....I can see it happening. SmashPass has only gotten even better in this meta due to the introduction of Magneton which is like one of the best SmashPass recipients in the tier, but of course Magneton alone is only part of the deadly equation.

While weather can be tricky to deal with, there are Pokemon universally good against weather, such as Kangaskhan, Fletchinder, Scarf Aurorus (even Chlorophyll Lilligant against Sun), etc. , which can find space on teams, and even having a mon that can check one of the weather sweepers (ex: Gourgeist for Kabutops, Garbodor for Sawsbuck...) can give the defending player a significant edge, due to the fact that weather teams are on a timer and that they usually overlap types, which can be taken advantage of.

Against SmashPass, all bets are off; one misplay or wrong switch can be all that is needed for the game to end right there, and decent SmashPass teams don't usually just fizzle out and die once their SmashPasser(s) bites the dust. Yes, I said SmashPasser(s), because SmashPass players can easily try fitting both of them on the same team. What's that, synergy issues? Don't need that where they're going, because they have ~3 teammates to pass to that can cover for them, one of which being Magneton which singlehandedly covers all their weaknesses :/ But I still haven't even delved into the real issue yet! Like Can-Eh-Dian and scorp said, there is next to no counterplay against SmashPass, which leaves extremely little room for error. There are some solid stops to SmashPass (and some very shaky ones, like switch an Intimidate user in on the Smash to get rid of White Herb first), however the SmashPass player has ways to adapt to these countermeasures, usually with minimal cost. Already we've seen Xatu being implemented to prevent phasing, and Huntail's Sucker Punch smacking Choice Scarfers, but for those of you running Haze Mantine, what would you do if the Gorebyss suddenly pulls out a +2 HP Electric and fries you on the spot? What if Liepard switches into a direct attack or worse, it turns out the SmashPasser is Mental Herb and one of their teammates is carrying the White Herb instead (the majority of sweepers on SmashPass teams can most certainly drop their boosting item for White Herb, Kangaskhan being a good example)? Needless to say that Haze Cryogonal stands no chance against Huntail. And of course, the SmashPass player definitely has the luxury of running both SmashPassers, making it even more difficult to "prepare for". The defender stands a lot more to lose against the rest of the tier when preparing 'reliable stops' against SmashPass.

SmashPass is a playstyle that capitalizes on the matchup issue to a noticeably unhealthy degree due to its relative simplicity combined with the minimal responses available in the tier, and overall isn't a beneficial aspect to the metagame.

Edit: Nebuchadnezzar yeah I think I forgot to imply that in my post, but indeed, the mindgames as to determining which one is the SmashPasser only puts even more pressure on the defender to make the right counterplay.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Punchshroom While I agree with everything you're saying it's worth noting that due to the Baton Pass Clause you can't carry two SmashPassers. You can carry both and have one not have Baton Pass (creating more mind games), but you can't have both of them capable of pulling off a Smashpass.

 

[Winter's Howl]

Munchlax hard walls both Magneton and Pyroar. But you'd need to run RestTalk with EQ and Return/Body Slam otherwise Magneton will just spam Flash Cannon and hope for SpDef drops. Not that EQ is bad of course, but Whirlwind is nice to have.

And yeah Lanturn is a garbage check to either of them:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Grass/Ground vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 180-214 (44.8 - 53.3%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 174-205 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Same with Hariyama:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 192-226 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 163-193 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

But you know it was to be expected that Magneton was going to dominate the tier. So we have to adapt our teams until it leaves the tier again. Same with Pyroar and Magmortar. Just run really fast hyper offense, forget about balanced teams and you'll be fine.

How is Lanturn a "garbage" check to Magneton? You do realize that is a Choice Specs Modest SE hit from a mon with 372 special attack?

Just by having lanturn on your team, your opponent doesn't want to click its main stabs since they are resisted and hence nullifies the potential damage magneton can cause

Did you even read this point? For this scenario to play out the way you want, you have to predict Lanturn coming in. Many a mon in the tier can take advantage of a mispredicted HP Ground, and more than likely take out Magneton as the result of one wrong move. Or, if you do happen to switch Lanturn in, you can then just switch out to the proper answer for a choice locked Magneton.

Another thing about your post. Did you really promote the invalidation of an entire playing style? Hopefully you are joking. That is the literal definition of imbalance. Not that Magneton actually invalidates balance as you are suggesting. Yes, it makes things difficult, but balance is nowhere near extinct. I think your argument was done as soon as you started making points like that. One last thing for you to chew on. I brought some of my own calcs to the party.

0 SpA Lanturn Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 184-220 (76 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What Magneton wants to eat this up? Not yours. GG. I'm Out.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Well that last point was more of a joke than anything you're right. My argument was more that it's kind of silly that we have to resort to mons like Lanturn, Stunfisk or Munchlax if we don't want Magneton to wreck our team. And the first two don't even have recovery and are very weak to status, while all three hate entry hazards which are plentiful atm. And the first two don't like eating an HP Ground. Well it's either that or making sure your whole team is faster and/or doesn't give it a free hit, like I said. Or you can resort to the shaky "let's predict around it" argument.

And to be fair I was mild with my calcs, I didn't even factor in Analytic :p I know it's Choice Specs Modest with 372 (not 383, that would be base 125), but to be frank; that's just what we're having to deal with here. I don't like it either trust me, but Magneton is just that fricking strong. And honestly your last calc is dissapointing, that's x4 SE against a mon without any investment, no Eviolite and 50/70 bulk. And why would you even run HP Ground to begin with, it only hits Magneton which you wall if it doesn't click HP Ground, and if it does you can't stay in to use it either. Waste of a moveslot.

 

[Winter's Howl]

Well that last point was more of a joke than anything you're right. My argument was more that it's kind of silly that we have to resort to mons like Lanturn, Stunfisk or Munchlax if we don't want Magneton to wreck our team. And the first two don't even have recovery and are very weak to status, while all three hate entry hazards which are plentiful atm. And the first two don't like eating an HP Ground. Well it's either that or making sure your whole team is faster and/or doesn't give it a free hit, like I said. Or you can resort to the shaky "let's predict around it" argument.

And to be fair I was mild with my calcs, I didn't even factor in Analytic :p I know it's Choice Specs Modest with 372 (not 383, that would be base 125), but to be frank; that's just what we're having to deal with here. I don't like it either trust me, but Magneton is just that fricking strong. And honestly your last calc is dissapointing, that's x4 SE against a mon without any investment, no Eviolite and 50/70 bulk. And why would you even run HP Ground to begin with, it only hits Magneton which you wall if it doesn't click HP Ground, and if it does you can't stay in to use it either. Waste of a moveslot.

Hello? Magneton does not like entry hazards either. Spikes literally tear up its metallic frame, making it more and more revengeable by a larger number of threats each time it switches in. And a number of popular checks in NU don't have recovery. That is partly what makes them NU. Yes, I originally got Magneton's Modest SpAtk number wrong, I was looking at a number of stats at that moment. But it did not actually matter, for that stat is still very powerful.

And honestly your last calc is dissapointing, that's x4 SE against a mon without any investment, no Eviolite and 50/70 bulk. And why would you even run HP Ground to begin with, it only hits Magneton which you wall if it doesn't click HP Ground, and if it does you can't stay in to use it either. Waste of a moveslot.

How is this disappointing? This is an uninvested non STAB hit coming from a base 76 SpAtk. That is not bad at all. Just because something does not OHKO does not make it a waste of a slot. This only improves Lanturn's stability as a Magneton check. If you take the time to explore the vast forums, and happen across some NU RMTs, you will notice a growing trend in uninvested mons running things like HP Ground. HP Ground Ferroseed has surfaced as one such example. None of these OHKO Magneton, but they bring enough pressure to keep Magneton from having its way with teams, as you have again suggested. As in the previous post, I will provide you with some calculations to look at.

0 SpA Ferroseed Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 88-104 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 86-102 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO

Funny thing to note is that mons that carry no investment on said moves beat Magneton before Magneton can take down these "garbage checks".

If you do not think HP Ground Ferroseed has merit, I actually discovered it on the most recent #1 peak stall RMT, by KJ Corp.

 

[Teddeh]

I don't understand how the hell you can consider lanturn a garbage mon? this mon has been amazing ever since oras came out. Stopping volt switch whilst adding utility to your team with heal bell and pivoting with volt switch is amazing.
Secondly; you act as if magneton comes in on everything and gets to fire off hits from turn 1? there's a thing called building with mons that are faster than base 70 with the ability to kill magneton? eq is common af coverage on almost every physical attacker that isn't named garbodor, as well as fire pokemon such as pyroar or magmortar? also, just by having stunfisk or lanturn on your team, you stop that player clicking volt switch since you have such a "safe" switch in, which allows you to gain momentum and to take advantage of the fact they have a magneton on their team.
Lastly; no one runs mixed defenses yama, you need rocks up to have a good chance of 2 hit ko'ing lanturn with a SPECS pyroar... life orb pyroar is the best set since you don't have to make predictions, combined with the fact that hazards are there to wear pyroar down and the fact that there are a lot of physical attackers in this tier that take advantage of the fact pyroar only hits base 106 and is piss weak, it allows unnecessary pressure to your team. (sneasel, tauros, archeops)

 

[Deeerpz]

I don't understand how the hell you can consider lanturn a garbage mon? this mon has been amazing ever since oras came out. Stopping volt switch whilst adding utility to your team with heal bell and pivoting with volt switch is amazing.

Seriously, in pretty much every team I build, there's a point where I consider adding Lanturn just because the typing is good defensively, slow volt turns are a blessing in loads of teams and the ability to run many sets that include options like T-Wave, Toxic, Heal Bell, Lefties, Assault Vest and other stuff. it's just a really versatile mon.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Hello? Magneton does not like entry hazards either. Spikes literally tear up its metallic frame, making it more and more revengeable by a larger number of threats each time it switches in. And a number of popular checks in NU don't have recovery. That is partly what makes them NU. Yes, I originally got Magneton's Modest SpAtk number wrong, I was looking at a number of stats at that moment. But it did not actually matter, for that stat is still very powerful.



How is this disappointing? This is an uninvested non STAB hit coming from a base 76 SpAtk. That is not bad at all. Just because something does not OHKO does not make it a waste of a slot. This only improves Lanturn's stability as a Magneton check. If you take the time to explore the vast forums, and happen across some NU RMTs, you will notice a growing trend in uninvested mons running things like HP Ground. HP Ground Ferroseed has surfaced as one such example. None of these OHKO Magneton, but they bring enough pressure to keep Magneton from having its way with teams, as you have again suggested. As in the previous post, I will provide you with some calculations to look at.

0 SpA Ferroseed Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 88-104 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 86-102 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO

Funny thing to note is that mons that carry no investment on said moves beat Magneton before Magneton can take down these "garbage checks".

If you do not think HP Ground Ferroseed has merit, I actually discovered it on the most recent #1 peak stall RMT, by KJ Corp.

You're suggesting that people run HP Ground on mons like Lanturn and Ferroseed just to beat Magneton. Do you legitimately not see anything wrong with that? The word overcentralizing comes to mind although in reality, what choice do people have. Thanks for reinforcing my argument though. Keep in mind I'm not calling for a suspect or anything, just pointing out Magnetons dominant position in the current metagame.

And for the people that can't read, I said that Lanturn was garbage as a check to Pyroar/Magneton. Not that Lanturn was garbage itself as a mon. Any mon that is 2HKO'd after Rocks by a common coverage move or flatout a main STAB move is not a reliable check. Even if it's Life Orb Pyroar; your Lanturn can switch in once and gets 2HKO'd the next time it comes in because it lacks any form of recovery. That one prediction with Magneton can cut your Lanturns lifespan in half, leaving it crippled for the rest of the match since it's supposed to be walling stuff. Can't do that with less than 50% health. Just saying. But the thing is that Magneton/Pyroar are so strong that you really have no choice but to run stuff like Lanturn because what else is out there? Munchlax is considered a bad gimmick by people, Lanturn is at least a good mon in general. Or like Teddeh and I have mentioned, use faster mons with Earthquake like Tauros or Archeops on every team.

 

[Winter's Howl]

You're suggesting that people run HP Ground on mons like Lanturn and Ferroseed just to beat Magneton. Do you legitimately not see anything wrong with that? The word overcentralizing comes to mind although in reality, what choice do people have. Thanks for reinforcing my argument though. Keep in mind I'm not calling for a suspect or anything, just pointing out Magnetons dominant position in the current metagame.

And for the people that can't read, I said that Lanturn was garbage as a check to Pyroar/Magneton. Not that Lanturn was garbage itself as a mon. Any mon that is 2HKO'd after Rocks by a common coverage move or flatout a main STAB move is not a reliable check. Even if it's Life Orb Pyroar; your Lanturn can switch in once and gets 2HKO'd the next time it comes in because it lacks any form of recovery. That one prediction with Magneton can cut your Lanturns lifespan in half, leaving it crippled for the rest of the match since it's supposed to be walling stuff. Can't do that with less than 50% health. Just saying. But the thing is that Magneton/Pyroar are so strong that you really have no choice but to run stuff like Lanturn because what else is out there? Munchlax is considered a bad gimmick by people, Lanturn is at least a good mon in general. Or like Teddeh and I have mentioned, use faster mons with Earthquake like Tauros or Archeops on every team.

I should not even respond to this, for there is no reason to. You literally jumped ship on the original argument, because your side was sinking. I don't see what you are thanking me for, I can't reinforce something that never existed. Teddeh and I have addressed literally every point you have made in this post. But to satisfy the demands of an np thread discussion, I will revisit these topics once more.

you need rocks up to have a good chance of 2 hit ko'ing lanturn with a SPECS pyroar... life orb pyroar is the best set since you don't have to make predictions, combined with the fact that hazards are there to wear pyroar down and the fact that there are a lot of physical attackers in this tier that take advantage of the fact pyroar only hits base 106 and is piss weak, it allows unnecessary pressure to your team. (sneasel, tauros, archeops)

As referenced in this post, Pyroar does not get as many chances to nab the 3HKO on Lanturn as you are suggesting. A weakness to hazards and common priority/common faster threats makes the window in which Pyroar is allowed to try for a 3HKO incredibly slim. If you are choice locking yourself with Pyroar, Lanturn only needs to switch into the appropriate Hyper Voice resist. This is the exact scenario that we visited in my post concerning Magneton. As the Pyroar user you are then forced to switch out if Lanturn is not in kill range, taking even more hazard damage later on. Or if you are going to try to pull anymore cute predictions, and happen to overpredict, Lanturn then ends your lion's miserable life as a Lanturn "slayer".

252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 152-179 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar: 194-230 (61.9 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock <= Don't forget that Life Orb recoil!

As evidenced earlier, your argument suffers from your assumption that Lanturn is the only Pyroar/Magneton check that teams carry. Pyroar/Fire checks are not hard to fit on a team. Also, teams are constantly preparing to exploit Magneton's weaknesses with faster threats already. While it is true that Lanturn is a check to a large number of threats in the meta, it would be sloppy building to make it your only check to these threats. So let's stop pretending that it's a sweep if Lanturn goes down, kay?

That one prediction with Magneton can cut your Lanturns lifespan in half, leaving it crippled for the rest of the match since it's supposed to be walling stuff. Can't do that with less than 50% health. Just saying.

Well actually...

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 74-87 (18.4 - 21.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It can wall things it needs to with less than 50% health. Just saying. =)

 

[Orphic]

You're suggesting that people run HP Ground on mons like Lanturn and Ferroseed just to beat Magneton. Do you legitimately not see anything wrong with that? The word overcentralizing comes to mind although in reality, what choice do people have. Thanks for reinforcing my argument though. Keep in mind I'm not calling for a suspect or anything, just pointing out Magnetons dominant position in the current metagame.

And for the people that can't read, I said that Lanturn was garbage as a check to Pyroar/Magneton. Not that Lanturn was garbage itself as a mon. Any mon that is 2HKO'd after Rocks by a common coverage move or flatout a main STAB move is not a reliable check. Even if it's Life Orb Pyroar; your Lanturn can switch in once and gets 2HKO'd the next time it comes in because it lacks any form of recovery. That one prediction with Magneton can cut your Lanturns lifespan in half, leaving it crippled for the rest of the match since it's supposed to be walling stuff. Can't do that with less than 50% health. Just saying. But the thing is that Magneton/Pyroar are so strong that you really have no choice but to run stuff like Lanturn because what else is out there? Munchlax is considered a bad gimmick by people, Lanturn is at least a good mon in general. Or like Teddeh and I have mentioned, use faster mons with Earthquake like Tauros or Archeops on every team.

Just quickly, in this case I'd call this adapting the meta to the prominent threats. HP ground lanturn isn't common as it beats Magneton 1v1 anyway, and honestly, I haven't seen HP ground on anything else. As for HP ground ferroseed, that just sounds sensible! Otherwise you'll get destroyed by every magnet pull HP fire magneton that's very common right now.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Hp ground on ferroseed is absolutely awful. You beat magneton with leech seed+protect anyway, and while magnet pull might have uses, it pales in comparison (in this tier) to the power that analytic gives you. magneton that use magnet pull will use hp fire anyway, and if its not magnet pull it should NEVER run it over hp ground as you're just giving yourself counters. If you need ferroseed gone just use a lure like fire fang mawile, or a subsetup sweeper like klinklang

 

[Deej Dy]

Hp ground on ferroseed is absolutely awful. You beat magneton with leech seed+protect anyway, and while magnet pull might have uses, it pales in comparison (in this tier) to the power that analytic gives you. magneton that use magnet pull will use hp fire anyway, and if its not magnet pull it should NEVER run it over hp ground as you're just giving yourself counters. If you need ferroseed gone just use a lure like fire fang mawile, or a subsetup sweeper like klinklang

I disagree completely about Magnet Pull, my Magneton set consists of

Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Charge Beam
- Substitute
- Flash Cannon/ Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ground]

It beats leech seed Ferro easily and it beats other Magneton easily with Magnet Pull and a Timid nature. Once another Magneton locks into anything but volt switch I pretty much bop it. You get to at least +3 on pretty much any Ferroseed (Even if it runs Knock off like Queen).

It does a good number on offensive Mawile too
252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 202-238 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 225-265 (93.3 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (If you choose to run T bolt)

I really prefer magnet pull over Analytic, I can sleep easy on pretty much all steel types including other Magnetons. I often find myself pairing Magnet Pull Magneton with Quagsire, because the second another Magneton uses HP grass and kills Quaggles, I can go into my own Magneton Sub and Charge beam to +6 (Or kill it right off the bat if you're savage like that) and do a number on my opponents team.

 

[Cherub Agent]

That's great, i didn't say that magnet pull magneton was unviable, i said that hp ground ferroseed was. What ability you run on magneton depends on your team. However, nu teams don't run steel-types particularly often, and when they do, probopass and magneton run volt switch, and defensive mawile runs baton pass, so you setting up charge beams on them is an idealistic scenario. Lures are more effective at getting rid of steel-types as they switch in on them in the first place, and carry less opportunity cost; you're completely missing out on the nuclear analytic boosted attacks that make magneton broken.