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The April usage stats are up on the Monotype Website. Some major shifts have occurred as a result of the recent bans! Do you think the metagame will stay this way or will it settle into something quite different next month?
The April usage stats are up on the Monotype Website. Some major shifts have occurred as a result of the recent bans! Do you think the metagame will stay this way or will it settle into something quite different next month?
Hi, my name's Death on Wings and some of you may remember me from such posts as this one! Well, welcome back for episode two of DoW's Amature Stat Analysis and Bad Excel Graphs!
Anyway the point I want to make is that the metagame looks a whole load healthier than it did before. Firstly, let's compare graphs of type usage, from January (on the left) and April (on the right):
(Ok so I couldn't be bothered to colour them nicely this time but srsly that's time consuming and I'm busy stop judging)
The main point to take away from this is that, while some types still get nearly 6x as much usage as others, there's a far wider spread, with five or six types all having roughly the same peak usage at the very top, rather than one type leaving everything else behind. (Also flying got over 7x as much usage as rock then, whereas now it's under 6x difference at most... which is something, right?)
It's also interesting to see where the peaks are the same or different. The graphs arguably hold the same basic patterns, but things like dragon and ground going up and dark going down are very noticable. Also be careful of the different scales, I'd do something about that but again... meh.
Ok, onto the next bit of the analysis. Here we just look at the numbers themselves, again with January on the left and April on the right:
(Ok so again it doesn't match up perfectly but give a guy a break here)
Here we can see that there's far less defined groups of whether a type is good or bad. The only real "group" I can point out is that Rock and Ice are really struggling. Despite the M-Meta ban, Mega Scizor is still pretty nasty for them to face, and neither is a particularly strong type on its own.
Other things I find surprising are:
Fairy's low usage, despite greninja (which carried gunk shot quite often) and m-meta being banned, while Flying with zapdos wasn't particularly fun for them either. I hope it picks back up in usage as it's a good type, however I guess M-Scizor on steel's still pretty nasty for them.
Steel's low usage: Ok they lost M-Meta, but again they didn't particularly enjoy zapdos. They still have a vast number of stronk mons at their disposal, can form strong cores, and do pretty well vs. psychic and bug which are in the top 5 types, though those matchups are far from one-sided. Again though, I'd expect them to regain some popularity as the metagame progresses.
Water seems a little low too: It's fallen from #3 to #6. However, when actual usage is looked at, it's risen from 7.81% to 7.84%, and so the statistics were lying to us a little. Losing greninja wasn't great for water, however it's still a strong type, and with ground doing well while grass and electric still struggle, it often has a decent matchup.
Thanks for tuning in to DoW's Amature Stat Analysis and Bad Excel Graphs! We hope to see you next time, and TBH once the meta's settled down I think everything's pretty balanced. Looking at ground is something that can be done, however other than that I see very few issues with the metagame outside of the unfortunate inability for ice or rock to do very well.
Ok when you guys say Electric has Rotom-w for exca i just laugh because seriously, does Rotom-W REALLY counter exca? Lets look at it in the long run. They got the sand up with smooth rock, they set up rocks, then they go into exca on a free switch. You send in rotom, you take 12% rocks damage. they go for gastro, you predict so u go for willo. Ok, now you go into whatever for gastro, they toxic/scald, then they predict a grass move so they go back into exca. Now what, you go into rotom-w back? Take some more hazard damage, take some damage from rock slide, what are u at about 60% hp? Ok they do the whole gastro thing again but u predict this time and u switch, but u are still taking lots of damage from rocks. Blah blah they might go into lando, set up gravity(gravity is insta win against elec), go back into hippo for smooth rock sand, they go into exca and sweep.
Alternate ending with no Gravity: They keep pressuring ur rotom with hazards and rock slides, and the fact that u have to keep constantly rely on rotom to deal with stuff such as garchomp(which does about 60-70% from outrage) mamoswine's knock off or superpower, hippowdon's toxic, etc.
Do you really think rotom-w is a counter to excadrill now? No. Either ban Smooth Rock immediately or ban Exca because Gravity + Life orb + Exca + sand can sweep more teams other than just electric. And dont forget Exca gets Swords dance either.
Ik im just talking in the perspective of electric, but like i said, other types suffer from sand rush exca too, such as ice, rock, fire, poison, steel, flying if gravity is up, etc.
BUT! What if we look at it differently and say, gravity is fine or Smooth Rock is fine. But who is making it broken? Excadrill. Lets ban Exca and have ground keep Smooth Rock and Gravity. Otherwise ban both smooth rock and gravity.
Now if u complain ground doesnt have a check for ice because exca would banned, they still have camerupt, mamo stone edge/superpower, pilo, and gastro.
tl;dr ban either excadrill alone, or ban both smooth rock + gravity.
What any of you have yet to mention is that a lot of ground teams run gravity lando. After switching into exca, that's 4 turns of pure sweeping power for certain types.
Some of you have stated Rotom-W as a wall to exca
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 330-390 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
gravity+sand rush Exca is the bane of Electric.
same goes for Steel if this team does not have ferro
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 273-322 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery..
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 226-268 (72.4 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
some of you have stated weezing as a wall to exca
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 307-361 (91.9 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Flying is also can be rekt by Exca, once skar is gone, mamo has free range to sweep
After flying/steel/water/dark have been nerfed a lil, I agree with smooth rock being for up ban, its about time ground gets nerf
To be honest, banning Gravity is a little too much. I can see why Exca is such a threat to many types (Ice player here) but I'd only advice to get rid of smooth rock. Exca does have some checks, it just happens that the sand inducer is also one tough mofo that won't be easily killed unlike say, hail inducers who just plain suck. So you can potentially have 10 turns of sand in one match eventually overpowering any non-skarmory team.
So I would just like to say that normal can play around excadrill well and that pory2 bricks it
p's spdef duck is trash never use it when u have chansey blissey and Dino. Your better of using 248 HP 196 defense (+Def! -speed) and dumping the rest in sp Def and using foul play toxic/twave recover and ice beam as it serves normal much better in ORAS
So I would just like to say that normal can play around excadrill well and that pory2 bricks it
p's spdef duck is trash never use it when u have chansey blissey and Dino. Your better of using 248 HP 196 defense (+Def! -speed) and dumping the rest in sp Def and using sing foul play toxic/twave recover and ice beam as it serves normal much better in ORAS
Alright where to start. First of all if you run sing then we aready have issues here. Chancey has a relatively standard set as it is with the set you discribed gastrodon or seismitoad are solid checks. Even the mighty Chancey and porygon are 2 shot after rocks and sand from exadrill so you have to sack something to get a safe switch in. And one you bring in a wall to it they bring in one of the 2 they have with recovery. In short they are soft checks at best more of a pivot
Alright where to start. First of all if you run sing then we aready have issues here. Chancey has a relatively standard set as it is with the set you discribed gastrodon or seismitoad are solid checks. Even the mighty Chancey and porygon are 2 shot after rocks and sand from exadrill so you have to sack something to get a safe switch in. And one you bring in a wall to it they bring in one of the 2 they have with recovery. In short they are soft checks at best more of a pivot
The "sing" was just a typo from the word "using" before it. And Normal teams often run Bulky Staraptor along with Chansey/Pory2. Intimidate will lessen Excadrill's offensive presence. Of course Rock Slide is a concern with Staraptor, but with some prediction it's workable. With that being said, I admit Excadrill is a serious threat to many types and it's at least worth having a look at Smooth Rock, but I wouldn't go any farther than considering Smooth Rock for a ban. Excadrill itself is good, but not ban-worthy.
The "sing" was just a typo from the word "using" before it. And Normal teams often run Bulky Staraptor along with Chansey/Pory2. Intimidate will lessen Excadrill's offensive presence. Of course Rock Slide is a concern with Staraptor, but with some prediction it's workable. With that being said, I admit Excadrill is a serious threat to many types and it's at least worth having a look at Smooth Rock, but I wouldn't go any farther than considering Smooth Rock for a ban. Excadrill itself is good, but not ban-worthy.
Sorry I didn't notice that as a typo I thought it was a set suggestion. Bulky starraptor is common yes but how many times can that come into the rocks and sand use it is a defogger but hippo walls it every day.
That was the entire point of my first post smooth rock is the same as damp rock yes drill is the only one who gets speed from the sand but the 8 turns of residual damage is nearly impossible to beat out while not losing your win conditions to the wear of the of the rest of the team. I use Ground and am able to beat water and grass with little issue proving there is something wrong
Banning gravity wouldnt have much effect on the ground nerf.
I was asking somebody which I'm not going to name, why is excadril allowed to break the meta w/ smooth rock while Damp Rock is banned.
Their answer was because there is only one viable Sand Rusher in ground, while tons of Swift Swimmers onwater.
Okay, thats a fact^, but it doesnt mean excadrill Alone cant take entire teams by itself, or with the help of Lando / Garchomp / Mamoswine.
Come on now, are you really saying these 3 need sand rush or any other boost to be a serial killing trio?
Mamoswine completely demolishes grass teams, Garchomp, which is never predictable, could be a scarf set/ a mega, you can NEVER play around it safely, and Landorus that gives no fucks about sooo many god damn types, and could be ran w/ soo many possible sets.
Gravity, Rock Polish, to name a few..
If youre saying Excadrill cant take entire teams by itself you are very wrong.
Sand Rush Excadrill usually gives fairy 0 chance unless the fairy user runs Scarf Trace Focus Blast Gardevoir. But by the time you send it in you ALREADY lose 2 Pokemon.
And you literally pray you dont miss Focus Blast.
Poison is also a type that gets wiped by Excadrill.
Poison can only hope its LO so it can try and wall with Mega Venusaur spamming Giga Drain, since Synthesis is NOT a reliable recovery in Sand. (especially one that lasts for 8 fucking turns..)
Another type would be Fire, and before you jump out saying: haha youre an idiot fire has sun. Well guess what, meanwhile excadrill is in its sandstorm, and you mega w/ charizard, it STILL gets the speed boost from sand rush considering there WAS sand that turn, and kills off your precious sun setter w/ rock slide.
We are not even asking for a pokemon ban, were asking you to SHORTEN Sandstorm.
Ban Smooth Rock so we can move on to mega sableye.
Hello guys.
For them who know me know arleady i'm going to give arguments to not ban Smooth Rock.
First:
Smooth rock isn't like Damp Rock, why?
For Water, they existed a lot of Pokemons with Swift Swim, Special and Physical sweepers.
This was the main reason for the Damp Rock ban in my opinion.
For ground, what do we have except Excadrill? Sandslash... Never used and not enough strong like Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops...
→ Only Excadrill to check instead a lot of Sweepers.
Secondly:
You're talking like "after the only counter, Excadrill can sweep all the team"...
I can say the same thing for all powerfull sweepers like M-Medi, Thundurus,...
It isn't a proof to ban it. It shows they have counter.
Counters?
•Steel:
→Skarmory
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Whirlwind is enough.
→Doublade
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Doublade: 226-268 (70.1 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 290-342 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Shadow Sneak next)
→Scizor:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Scizor: 230-270 (67 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 632-744 (174.5 - 205.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
•Fighting:
→Breloom:
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 296-350 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
→Keldeo:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 263-309 (81.4 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 420-494 (116 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
→Conckeldurr:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 251-296 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 432-510 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Or 2 Mach Punch).
•Dragon:
→Dragonite:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 125-148 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 554-654 (153 - 180.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
→Garchomp:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 251-296 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 494-584 (136.4 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
•Water:
Suicune:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 157-187 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Manaphy: (Gastro is ct by Energy ball)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 242-285 (66.3 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
... They exist many other for water.
•Fire:
M-Zard Y bring sun, Sand Rush failed.
Hippo? 2HKO By Fire Blast.
•Bug:
→Scizor/ M-Scizor (Cf Steel)
→M-Heracross:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 169-200 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 776-914 (214.3 - 252.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
•Normal:
→Porygon 2:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Porygon2 Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 177-209 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
→Ditto Scarf.
→Chansey:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-376 (49.8 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Counter.
•Psychic:
→Slowbro:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 246-290 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Regenator)
→Bronzong:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 84-100 (24.8 - 29.5%) -- 8.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 198-234 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
→Gardevoir Scarf Trace.
252+ SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 396-468 (109.3 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Rock:
→M-Aggron:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 292-344 (80.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
→Sturdy mons with EQ or Water move (Omastar, ...)
→Rhyperior:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 236-281 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 494-584 (136.4 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Ground:
Hippo:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 153-183 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 360-426 (99.4 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
→M-Garchomp
→Gastro physical.
• Ghost:
→Sableye Prankster.
→Gourgeist:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
WoW, Leech Seed, ...
→Cofragigus:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
WoW.
→Golurk:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 289-341 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 524-620 (144.7 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Dark:
→Crawdaunt:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 359-426 (99.1 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
→Mandibuzz:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 185-218 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 265-313 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• Flying:
→ Landorus-T:
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 136-161 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 536-632 (148 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
→Skarmory
→Gliscor:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 121-142 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- 30.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 312-368 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• Ice:
Cloyster:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 146-172 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 255-300 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock + Ice Shard.
• Fairy:
Azumarill: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 360-426 (99.4 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• Electric, really? If you're good, you can't lose against Electric with ground. it's evident.
After have showed counter, i can say that every type (except electric) is able to kill Excadrill.
It's not like Talonflam against bug, grass,... or M-Zard X against Grass, Bug, Ice,... (But he's still here)...
I've read too that Mamoswine could sweep after Skarmory death.
Ask to Arifeen if he didn't have other counter for Mamo.
You want names? Ok:
Gyarados, Bulky Zard X, Thundurus Grass Knot.
My final word (my opnion to resume):
I'm a "good" ground user and i was known because i used this type "well".
So, i think i know what are counter to Excadrill i've always faced, my opinion isn't based on a fan Excadrill boy.
Excadrill is really a good sweeper, why ban Smooth Rock? You've counter, just use them well.
Ps:
I've laddered with flying and i am actually, first on the ladd, why?
Because M-Zard X is just broken and i win games just with him without problems.
But M-Zard X i don't know why still avoid being suspected when he has to be it.
But we suspect other things totally useless like Smooth Rock...
Hello guys.
For them who know me know arleady i'm going to give arguments to not ban Smooth Rock.
First:
Smooth rock isn't like Damp Rock, why?
For Water, they existed a lot of Pokemons with Swift Swim, Special and Physical sweepers.
This was the main reason for the Damp Rock ban in my opinion.
For ground, what do we have except Excadrill? Sandslash... Never used and not enough strong like Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops...
→ Only Excadrill to check instead a lot of Sweepers.
Secondly:
You're talking like "after the only counter, Excadrill can sweep all the team"...
I can say the same thing for all powerfull sweepers like M-Medi, Thundurus,...
It isn't a proof to ban it. It shows they have counter.
Counters?
•Steel:
→Skarmory
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Whirlwind is enough.
→Doublade
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Doublade: 226-268 (70.1 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 290-342 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Shadow Sneak next)
→Scizor:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Scizor: 230-270 (67 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 632-744 (174.5 - 205.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
•Fighting:
→Breloom:
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 296-350 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
→Keldeo:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 263-309 (81.4 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 420-494 (116 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
→Conckeldurr:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 251-296 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 432-510 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Or 2 Mach Punch).
•Dragon:
→Dragonite:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 125-148 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 554-654 (153 - 180.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
→Garchomp:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 251-296 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 494-584 (136.4 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
•Water:
Suicune:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 157-187 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Manaphy: (Gastro is ct by Energy ball)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 242-285 (66.3 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
... They exist many other for water.
•Fire:
M-Zard Y bring sun, Sand Rush failed.
Hippo? 2HKO By Fire Blast.
•Bug:
→Scizor/ M-Scizor (Cf Steel)
→M-Heracross:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 169-200 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 776-914 (214.3 - 252.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
•Normal:
→Porygon 2:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Porygon2 Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 177-209 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
→Ditto Scarf.
→Chansey:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-376 (49.8 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Counter.
•Psychic:
→Slowbro:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 246-290 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Regenator)
→Bronzong:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 84-100 (24.8 - 29.5%) -- 8.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 198-234 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
→Gardevoir Scarf Trace.
252+ SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 396-468 (109.3 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Rock:
→M-Aggron:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 292-344 (80.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
→Sturdy mons with EQ or Water move (Omastar, ...)
→Rhyperior:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 236-281 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 494-584 (136.4 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Ground:
Hippo:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 153-183 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 360-426 (99.4 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
→M-Garchomp
→Gastro physical.
• Ghost:
→Sableye Prankster.
→Gourgeist:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
WoW, Leech Seed, ...
→Cofragigus:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
WoW.
→Golurk:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 289-341 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 524-620 (144.7 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Dark:
→Crawdaunt:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 359-426 (99.1 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
→Mandibuzz:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 185-218 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 265-313 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• Flying:
→ Landorus-T:
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 136-161 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 536-632 (148 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
→Skarmory
→Gliscor:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 121-142 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- 30.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 312-368 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• Ice:
Cloyster:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 146-172 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 255-300 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock + Ice Shard.
• Fairy:
Azumarill: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 360-426 (99.4 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• Electric, really? If you're good, you can't lose against Electric with ground. it's evident.
After have showed counter, i can say that every type (except electric) is able to kill Excadrill.
It's not like Talonflam against bug, grass,... or M-Zard X against Grass, Bug, Ice,... (But he's still here)...
I've read too that Mamoswine could sweep after Skarmory death.
Ask to Arifeen if he didn't have other counter for Mamo.
You want names? Ok:
Gyarados, Bulky Zard X, Thundurus Grass Knot.
My final word (my opnion to resume):
I'm a "good" ground user and i was known because i used this type "well".
So, i think i know what are counter to Excadrill i've always faced, my opinion isn't based on a fan Excadrill boy.
Excadrill is really a good sweeper, why ban Smooth Rock? You've counter, just use them well.
Ps:
I've laddered with flying and i am actually, first on the ladd, why?
Because M-Zard X is just broken and i win games just with him without problems.
But M-Zard X i don't know why still avoid being suspected when he has to be it.
But we suspect other things totally useless like Smooth Rock...
Okay, considering you're being completely subjective about this since you are a ground user, lemme tell you something.
Ground does NOT struggle vs Fairy
Considering Fairy is relying on Mega Diancie to sweep & & Klefki to twave and set screens.
-
It might but usually(since it is a weakness) does NOT struggle against ice considering it has 8 TURN SAND TO SPAM IRON HEAD WITH.
And don't give me the: 'Oh Ice has Abomasnow to remove sand' speech, Abomasnow , even as a Mega, is outclassed by other Ice mons.
And what you think avalugg can switch in and tank a hit? Barely.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 179-213 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-
Now to Fire, so you're saying sun troubles you? What if the fire user predicts Earthquake, goes to Zard, Goes for the mega, goes for the fire move, because they know in sun excadrill does NOT outspeed charizard.
Here is what happens in that kind of a situation. ( excadrill had 0 evs in everything, js )
Proof: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-232571277
Grass:
Well this is problematic for Ground ngl, but let me show you how bad grass's greatest walls suffer from Exca's hits:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 398-468 (105.8 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 161-191 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Most Grass users run curse set venu with max spd, but I decided to run this calc anyway.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
^3HKO after synthesis heal in sand.
And the rest get bopped by mamoswine/sludge wave Lando/Garchomp
-
Electric: lol rip
-
Poison:
Poison's only hope is basically max def mega venu , which gets 3hko'd by Eq drill after 2 synthesis heals in sand+ sand dmg. And hope it is NOT a band set.
And maybe Sucker Punch skuntank right after that but that isn't doing too much dmg.
-
Water:
Keldeo Gyarados Sharpdeo Azumarill.. I get it, it's a huge struggle.
Then again..
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 263-309 (81.4 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
^if that's a switch in then it basically dies to sand damage.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 289-341 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Same thing basically.
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 195-231 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Adding in flinch possibility/crit.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 320-378 (113.8 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rip
Now for all of you who are like, are you an idiot? Non of these are guaranteed OHKO except Pedo.
Okay, true, then again you just switch to gastrodon/seismitoad , take the water stab, and sand takes them out with the no hp they have left.
-
Flying: If you have Gravity Lando, you auto win this matchup.
-
Dark:
Crawdaunt is the only actual problematic thing about this matchup for excadrill..
Sableye does scare it off but then dark is rip by epower/focus blast lando.
Mandibuzz does kind a wall it. But we have Lando & Mamoswine for that.
Excadrill just shits on the rest.
-
Ghost:
Please nobody actually uses Cofagrigus.
I agree w/ the gourg calc tho, and you should have calculated eq dmg on mega sableye, and also trevenant.
Gourg on a switch in:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
this is where you jst switch out to lando and sweep l0l
Mega Sableye on a switch in:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Trev on a switch in:
(Custom EV's)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Trevenant: 175-208 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And yeah as you mentioned that cofagrigus, might aswell throw it in.
Cofagrigus on a switch in:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 20.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see Ghost's greatest walls, also get teared down by this beast.
-
Fighting:
This is probably one of the hardest matchups for Ground, considering Keldeo & Breloom are on one team.
Aside from Excadrill ohkoing everything but Conkeldurr
(252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 251-296 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
Fairly saying, ground does struggle against it.
-
Psychic:
Aside from Deoxys D/Slowbro/Mew , I cant rly think of anything that can take this.
Landorus kind of cleans up if you fuck up w/ excadrill.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rip if thats on a switch in.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Deoxys-D: 146-173 (48.1 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
#Mr0SwitchIns
-
Bug:
Not much to say after you see the calcs.
Hey! Nice.. Ugh.. Thing! you got there!
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 182-218 (74.5 - 89.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Hey! Nice spinner you got there!
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 382-452 (107.9 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even your best wall..
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 136-161 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-
Rock:
Mega Aggron is less used these days, since Nega Diancie brings Rock FASTER wins and plays a more efficient role as a sweeper than one that you need to rely on no crits to successfuly setup.
The rest gets ripped by EQ/IH.
-
Steel:
Steel is rip by gravity.
If there is no gravity, you cant forget that Ground is a weakness here, so Steel abuses skarmory, untill Lando comes in and abuses it. (o3o)
And again. The rest dies to drill.
-
Normal:
Foul play pory2 is only a recent meta change, and its not so common either.
Then you brought the chansey calc, and mentioned counter.
Nobody on higher ladder uses counter chansey wtf.
-
Dragon:
Meh.. Dnite/Garchomp are the only 2 an Excadrill should be worried about.
The rest can rip.
- GROUND:
Same
n_n
> Mega Pikachu Memes :/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finishing up this idiotically long post, let me get into your mind, haters.
Your gonna say, why calc everything w/ rocks?
-Because ground is that pressuring. You can freely set up rocks almost at any time.
What if the opponent does switch in, take all that damage, but in the next turn kills drill?(Water for eg.)
-You just switch to your water absorber and let the SAND do its job.
Now to Fírnen , Im aware we both have a huge amount of IF's, I really am.
But cant you see these are more likely?
Counter Chansey?
Cofagrigus?
Seriously?
Anyway, I have nothing further to say, I hope you take this post seriously.
Hey guys CC here! There's NO reason in hell smooth rock should be banned! Every type in the meta has a pokemon that's able to sweep the meta. IF AND ONLY IF you let them. Obviously if you're new you won't know how to deal with these threats, but if you have experience in the metagame and competetive playing in general you should use the types you use and UNDERSTAND what pokemon have the potential to sweep you. You simply teambuild around it. Of course now you can make the excuse "you shouldn't have to teambuild around op threats" Really? So we should ban EVERY SINGLE POKEMON that has the potential to sweep a team?
there's not enough room to write the 5 ish pokemon from every type so i'll just write one(no particular threat just one of the many from each type that can sweep)
Steel: Scizor
Ground: Excadril!!!!
Water: Keldeo
Flying: Dragonite
Poison: Scolipede
Psychic: Mega cham
Dark: Weavile
Normal: Diggersby
Dragon: Kyurem-b
Rock: Omastar
Grass: Breloom
Fairy: Azumarill (WOW THE ENTIRE FAIRY META IS BASED ON SETTING UP SCREENS AND SETTING UP LETS BAN EVERYTHING!)
Electric: Thundurus
Ghost: Gengar
Ice: Mamoswine
Bug: Heracross
Fighting: Hawlucha
Fire: Darmanitan
Obviously theres about 50 more in total maybe 1-6 more depending on the type that can legitimately sweep your team if you make a mistake. SAME EXACT THING WITH SMOOTH ROCK AND EXCADRILL. IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY YOU WON'T LOSE TO A SINGLE "THREAT".
I'm currently 49/2 on the ladder on the alt Calspid. If I didn't know how to deal with these threats I wouldn't have only 2 losses Thanks for reading.
If you notice I am liking the argument on both sides.
I really only use one type, that type is Water, Excadrill calcs verse Waters Offensive Pokemon is irreverent except for the fact I would never my Keldeo into an Excadrill. In 0 situations while sand is up. I think everyone can say Defensive Water can eradicate Ground, Offensive Water, well Keldeo, or a +2 MegaDos usually can sweep a Ground team together. I will emphasize together as, I will need to fodder a Pokemon to bring Keldeo in to beat the only Offensive Threat Ground has towards me. I will also say many people are still trying to use Balanced Water so, that ends the match up as well. Also about switching Gastrodon or Seismitoad, well you would just give me a free win, unless you play perfectly, and even then rip half of your team, and your Water counter.
Excadrill against other types;
Well, Fairy is fucked unless it runs CB Azumarill which it should be running over a sketchy Trace Scarf Focus Blast Gardevoir set.
Bug, I find can deal with Excadrill because this is relevant for stalling sand turns. 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 136-161 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. I will also state Choice Scarf Adamant Heracross outspeeds Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill, if I have Sticky Webs up.
I know very few match ups with ground so I will not elaborate like Frnen did.
Banning Smooth Rock would just be puerile, and would be ignoramuses wanting something like Ground nerfed drastically. I will also note I see Ground be nerfed in the future, but please do not make it devastating for the type.
If there are mistakes, I literally just woke up and I am having my tea.
Hey guys CC here! There's NO reason in hell smooth rock should be banned! Every type in the meta has a pokemon that's able to sweep the meta. IF AND ONLY IF you let them. Obviously if you're new you won't know how to deal with these threats, but if you have experience in the metagame and competetive playing in general you should use the types you use and UNDERSTAND what pokemon have the potential to sweep you. You simply teambuild around it. Of course now you can make the excuse "you shouldn't have to teambuild around op threats" Really? So we should ban EVERY SINGLE POKEMON that has the potential to sweep a team?
there's not enough room to write the 5 ish pokemon from every type so i'll just write one(no particular threat just one of the many from each type that can sweep)
Steel: Scizor
Ground: Excadril!!!!
Water: Keldeo
Flying: Dragonite
Poison: Scolipede
Psychic: Mega cham
Dark: Weavile
Normal: Diggersby
Dragon: Kyurem-b
Rock: Omastar
Grass: Breloom
Fairy: Azumarill (WOW THE ENTIRE FAIRY META IS BASED ON SETTING UP SCREENS AND SETTING UP LETS BAN EVERYTHING!)
Electric: Thundurus
Ghost: Gengar
Ice: Mamoswine
Bug: Heracross
Fighting: Hawlucha
Fire: Darmanitan
Obviously theres about 50 more in total maybe 1-6 more depending on the type that can legitimately sweep your team if you make a mistake. SAME EXACT THING WITH SMOOTH ROCK AND EXCADRILL. IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY YOU WON'T LOSE TO A SINGLE "THREAT". I'm currently 49/2 on the ladder on the alt Calspid. If I didn't know how to deal with these threats I wouldn't have only 2 losses Thanks for reading.
THAT SINGLE THREAT HAS EDGEQUAKE COVERAGE ALONG WITH A STAB IRON HEAD. - AND LO DMG BOOST
FOR 8 TURNS IT OUTSPEEDS EVERY SINGLE POKEMON IN THIS META.
FOR 8 TURNS IT TERRORIZES AND SWEEPS TEAMS WHOLE
HOW ARE YOU NOT SEEING THIS?!
Ok while it's great that people are discussing exca, there's two problems: Firstly people are, in general, just discussing points that have already been made, and secondly people aren't even including everything that's been said. For example, apparently everyone's just completely forgotten that poison has a sure-fire counter to sand rush exca in weezing. So, I'm gonna put this old post of mine here and ask people to actually read it this time. kthxbai
I'm not entirely confident with all of these assessments. Here's what I'd say:
Normal: While SpD pory2 is most common in OU/UU, Phys def is most common in Mono, and walls Exca. Normal has a counter.
Fighting: Has offensive answers to the threat as you stated, and fighting's not exactly looking for defensive answers. Not a massive problem.
Flying: Almost every team runs one of those counters, so not a problem. It's a threat still, sure, but not gamebreaking here by any means.
Poison: 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 122-146 (36.5 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Assuming no flinch or WoW miss, this is gonna deal with the threat.
Rock: While M-Aggron is 3HKO'd, it can't KO back or recover up enough to wall it, and most rock teams run M-Diancie anyway. Shuckle's KO'd by eq followed by iron head, and the best Rock can do back is hope gastro's gone by the time it comes in, fodder something off, then send in sash omastar to set up while gaining a weak armor boost at the same time, which could quite possible sweep the ground team. But as has been said, that's far from the perfect plan. Rock struggles here.
Bug: Again it's a struggle, though Forre can be annoying for it. Technically fully defensive M-Scizor counters, however it's not exactly an amazing way to use your mega for bug. Instead they'll prefer to revenge kill with Heracross or something. A tough matchup, though winnable.
Ghost: There's the things you mentioned, plus Spiritomb can take two hits and hurt it back with Foul Play (which KOs with the two rounds of LO). So, technically can counter but struggles to play around it.
Steel: Sure, exca has partners to take care of the counters, but at this point it's about who's playing better. Steel has counters, so exca's not a problem in this matchup.
Fire: Yeah, Zard Y is a 50/50 (well, not quite - I remember losing a game to Lucina09 where I went for rock slide as Zard Y came in, only for it to miss), but at this point it's down to skill for whether you can beat exca, so while it's a problem it's beatable.
Water: Yep, no threats here.
Grass: At this point it's relying on team support to sweep, which is more "standard pokemon" than "overwhelming threat". If you're really struggling with the mon you can run max def celebi to beat it or something but honestly it's not that big a threat.
Electric: While Rotom-W might be somewhat easy to wear down, it's a counter nonetheless.
Psychic: Slowbro is enough on its own TBH. While a whole load of mons can wall exca, Slowbro can more easily keep healthy enough to counter due to regen. In any case, not that big a threat.
Ice: Yeah, this is always gonna be an uphill battle. That said, Walrein takes the hits pretty well. But yeah, this one's not exactly the easiest of games.
Dragon: TBH TankChomp doesn't get enough love in mono. Other than that, you're gonna have to play around it, but that's not to say you can't beat it. Dragon's a strong enough team built of offensive mons that TBH I don't feel this is that bad a matchup still.
Dark: Again there's sab although that doesn't want to switch in, and there's Spiritomb which nobody uses ever on dark but w/e. But yeah ignoring hax Mandi walls, which is good enough for me.
Fairy: Yeah, this is a tough one. Banded Azu is a counter, but it's not exactly gonna want to switch in a whole bunch of times. Other than that you've got to play around it, e.g. with garde as you said. A tough matchup, but they can counter still.
tl;dr Types that struggle to win: Rock, Bug, Ghost, Ice, Fairy. You may disagree with these assesments, but I don't think any types other than Rock and Ice are outright lost causes, and even these have something in their favour. But a large number of types can deal with the problem. Not gonna say whether it needs to be dealt with or not, just my thoughts.
If you notice I am liking the argument on both sides.
I really only use one type, that type is Water, Excadrill calcs verse Waters Offensive Pokemon is irreverent except for the fact I would never my Keldeo into an Excadrill. In 0 situations while sand is up. I think everyone can say Defensive Water can eradicate Ground, Offensive Water, well Keldeo, or a +2 MegaDos usually can sweep a Ground team together. I will emphasize together as, I will need to fodder a Pokemon to bring Keldeo in to beat the only Offensive Threat Ground has towards me. I will also say many people are still trying to use Balanced Water so, that ends the match up as well. Also about switching Gastrodon or Seismitoad, well you would just give me a free win, unless you play perfectly, and even then rip half of your team, and your Water counter.
Excadrill against other types;
Well, Fairy is fucked unless it runs CB Azumarill which it should be running over a sketchy Trace Scarf Focus Blast Gardevoir set.
Bug, I find can deal with Excadrill because this is relevant for stalling sand turns. 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 136-161 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. I will also state Choice Scarf Adamant Heracross outspeeds Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill, if I have Sticky Webs up.
I know very few match ups with ground so I will not elaborate like Frnen did.
Banning Smooth Rock would just be puerile, and would be ignoramuses wanting something like Ground nerfed drastically. I will also note I see Ground be nerfed in the future, but please do not make it devastating for the type.
If there are mistakes, I literally just woke up and I am having my tea.
Banning Smooth Rock won't nerf Ground drastically. It reduces weather damage for 3 turns and your Drill will likely be on for less than 3 turns. Ground has so much to go for it without sand. Physical Attackers in Mamo/Chomp/Lando-T/Diggersby, Special Attackers in Lando/Nido, Walls in Gliscor/Swampert/Hippo/Piloswine, it's great.
By looking at the imbalanced type matchup table, Ground appears as the winning type 5 times though you could make a case that majority of them are type advantages. In the type matchup table, it has surpassed Flying as the best type with only one Bad matchup with Water with the Majority of it being Neutral and Good.
Ground can set up rocks with ease with practically any mon, doesn't care if rocks are up on it's own side, whittling most opposing teams down with sand (exception is Rock and Steel but they both get bopped by Ground). The combination of Drill just switching out from counters into Gastro/Hippo/Chomp where they can deal damage, phaze out, recover stall, status, force opposing teams to defog/clear hazards, switch; Ground is ridiculous right now.
Ok while it's great that people are discussing exca, there's two problems: Firstly people are, in general, just discussing points that have already been made, and secondly people aren't even including everything that's been said. For example, apparently everyone's just completely forgotten that poison has a sure-fire counter to sand rush exca in weezing. So, I'm gonna put this old post of mine here and ask people to actually read it this time. kthxbai
I think a natural metagame from gamefreak is the smoothest way to play. I mentioned a smooth rock ban in december/january, and really the hype for ground came when the frog was banned. Just a spiral of nerfs versus actually fixing things (that can't be fixed because it is a game no one can fully understand balance in). To add to that, I don't really understand why an arbitrary 3 turns is that much better than banning sand (hippow will have leftovers now), or banning hippowdon, or banning excadrill. If it is easier whatever, but to be honest the most correct solution would be nice.
Also I didn't look recently, but as for best type, scp did change the ranges. Before it was smaller and flying was the best, now I am pretty sure it went from 5% to 10% for a matchup to be biased. I haven't looked in a while but I do remember that.
Well, naturally, you shouldn't really need an argument for whether or not Ground needs it; if it's broken, something needs to be done about it, regardless of whether or not Ground needs it.
But, uh, to answer your question, those three extra turns make a HUGE difference in supporting Excadrill. With Smooth Rock, Hippowdon can lead more confidently knowing that it doesn't need to switch out in >4 turns just to allow Excadrill to sweep and take its time in setting Stealth Rock, etc. Those three extra turns also allows you to find time to get Excadrill in as safe as possible, by switching around other teammates around until you find a relatively safe switch-in for Excadrill. Without it however, it's noticeably more difficult to actually get Excadrill in for a sweep without sacking something. Most types have something that can do a good amount of damage, so switching Excadrill into the wrong thing may leave it at a low enough HP to have it wear itself down with LO. I've seen Water Monotypes running Eject Button on Politoed to get in Swift Swimmers in safely, but that still only works once. Even if Eject Button Hippowdon were to become a thing somehow, you would lose a reliable early-game Stealth Rocker since the opponent can just hit it before it does get rocks up. I think Excadrill would be a bit more manageable if it were to lose those turns, so that should be considered before outright banning Excadrill i guess.
I think we need to stop grouping Damp Rock and Smooth Rock together. Despite the two being similar items, their effects on their respective type are drastically different and shouldn't really be compared.
The answer that person gave isn't wrong, but it's not the entirety of the truth either. The combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle was banned from all teams in OU last generation, and not just because of the speed boost from Swift Swim. Rain increases the offensive power of water teams as well. All of a water team already has STAB on water moves, but as soon as rain is up, those STAB water moves essentially gain a second STAB boost on top of that.
The move Surf is at 90 base power. If you factor in STAB, it becomes 135 base power. Factor in the boost from the rain as well and you suddenly have a 202.5 base power attack with perfect accuracy probably coming from a pokemon with Swift Swim, outspeeding most scarf users. So you're saying most people don't run Surf anyway? Alright, let's try Hydro Pump.
Hydro Pump is 110 base power this gen. After STAB it's 165. After the rain boost, it's 247.5. Just 2.5 points below the base power of Explosion, and the only drawback to this move is 80% accuracy.
Swift Swim Water teams under the rain not only double their speed, they more than double the power of their Water moves as well, and that's BEFORE factoring in any items the pokemon might be holding. Imagine any pokemon using a move with a similar base power to Explosion, outspeeding most scarf users, AND having a Life Orb or Choice Specs boost on top of that. We're getting into the absolutely absurd amounts of power at this point.
Excadrill is powerful, and it can do some serious damage to pretty much any team if it gets the full 8 turns of sand, but there's no way I would compare it to Swift Swim abusers. Excadrill's only secondary benefit from sandstorm is chip damage. It gets no power boost, and that makes a world of difference.
TL:DR Rain can't really be compared to sand so Damp Rock and Smooth Rock shouldn't be compared either. If we're going to ban Smooth Rock, it should be banned for its own reasons, not because everyone forgot how OP 8 turns of rain was.
I think we need to stop grouping Damp Rock and Smooth Rock together. Despite the two being similar items, their effects on their respective type are drastically different and shouldn't really be compared.
The answer that person gave isn't wrong, but it's not the entirety of the truth either. The combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle was banned from all teams in OU last generation, and not just because of the speed boost from Swift Swim. Rain increases the offensive power of water teams as well. All of a water team already has STAB on water moves, but as soon as rain is up, those STAB water moves essentially gain a second STAB boost on top of that.
The move Surf is at 90 base power. If you factor in STAB, it becomes 135 base power. Factor in the boost from the rain as well and you suddenly have a 202.5 base power attack with perfect accuracy probably coming from a pokemon with Swift Swim, outspeeding most scarf users. So you're saying most people don't run Surf anyway? Alright, let's try Hydro Pump.
Hydro Pump is 110 base power this gen. After STAB it's 165. After the rain boost, it's 247.5. Just 2.5 points below the base power of Explosion, and the only drawback to this move is 80% accuracy.
Swift Swim Water teams under the rain not only double their speed, they more than double the power of their Water moves as well, and that's BEFORE factoring in any items the pokemon might be holding. Imagine any pokemon using a move with a similar base power to Explosion, outspeeding most scarf users, AND having a Life Orb or Choice Specs boost on top of that. We're getting into the absolutely absurd amounts of power at this point.
Excadrill is powerful, and it can do some serious damage to pretty much any team if it gets the full 8 turns of sand, but there's no way I would compare it to Swift Swim abusers. Excadrill's only secondary benefit from sandstorm is chip damage. It gets no power boost, and that makes a world of difference.
TL:DR Rain can't really be compared to sand so Damp Rock and Smooth Rock shouldn't be compared either. If we're going to ban Smooth Rock, it should be banned for its own reasons, not because everyone forgot how OP 8 turns of rain was.
OmniaX, might I recommend that you lower the amount of Caps and/or Bold? It's negatively affecting the presentation of your point.
That said, Ground is incredibly powerful. Ground is my main type, but I usually will opt not to use it. It's simply more powerful than I will be comfortable using in most situations. My version is admittedly more predict intensive than the Gravity/Band or Life Orb variants of the team, but it is also very flexible. There is only two types that I fear with that team, Water and Grass. Banning Excadrill would be a gross misdeed, yes. Banning Landorus-I would be a harsh blow, but livable. Banning Smooth Rock leaves the rest of the team mostly intact, but will significantly change the matchups of the type. Banning Gravity is what I would consider to be an absolute minimum measure.
The focus of OmniaX's argument is that Ground has minimal negative matchups. However, that is not the glaring issue to me. The issue is that ground reaches above a 65% win rate against eight types, and has one more type a mere 0.5% below that. In other words ground has near or above a two-thirds chance of beating nine of the types. This is literally half of the available types. Using the Sprite Gallery to calculate, this is 40.35% of the metagame. A nerf of some sort would not only benefit the metagame, but is an outright necessity.
Poison has a tough time with a number of pokemon, with Landorus being especially problematic and Mamoswine being very capable of wearing down otherwise good checks to pokemon such as Excadrill. However, this doesn't change the fact that poison has a solid answer to excadrill. The mono stats are great to use in arguments, but they still need some analysis: You have to understand why something's the case rather than just pointing to a statistic and saying "I win".
Ok, so the problem with win/loss stats for a type is that they don't exactly match up to how good a type is overall. This was a discussion we had with Antar here, and as you can see the overall win percentage shows very little in terms of how good the type is due to players laddering using the same team the whole time. Thus, while the stats are great for showing how well a type does against other types, they are pretty much unusable in terms of trying to determine how good a type is overall.
I don't play much monotype, but from reading the thread it seems Exca is the problem, not Smooth Stone. First of all, Exca seems to be the only Sand Rusher that's "broken". Stoutland and Sandslash are nowhere near Exca's power. Second of all, less sand turns doesn't help nerfing Exca too much. Sure, it now has less turns to destroy face at lightning speeds - all that means is that its easier to stall out sand turns. Exca still sweeps easy when your Rotom-W gets worn down / Gravity Lando does its thing.
If this is a concern, then banning Exca on Ground Teams seems like ths most logical answer to me. Smooth Rock and Sand arent broken - Exca is
