Is mandi really all that predictable, though? Sure, it's job is mainly the same every time, but it has around 8 moves to choose from. I personally prefer a spinner rather than a defogger on my team, so that always opens up a spot in mandis move set (which I prefer whirlwind). Not only this, but you can always try to bluff a move. For instance, pressuring the opponent to force Hera out because he/she thinks you're carrying brave bird. For a defensive pokemon, usually it's using the same set every time, give it take a move. Mandi I feel gives you a bit more choice. You can run either defensive or specially defensive. And the opponent can only guess the rest of your move set besides foul play/roost
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np: ORAS UU Stage 3 - New Gods
- Thread starter Sam
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Lucipurrr
Banned deucer.
Whilrwind, Toxic, Roost, Defog, Taunt, Brave bird, Foul Play. Those are the 7 moves that I think we'll be seeing the MOST out of Mandiburd. Maybe we'll see Knock off, or maybe we'll see some sort of Life Orb set come out of Mandiburd, maybe even Nasty Plot Mandiburd?
This could be a pretty decent set, It's a good taunt bait set.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Roost
This is pretty much Mega Pidgeot but not as good...
Mandibuzz (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave
- Roost
These are the only two offensive Mandiburd sets I can see being somewhat viable.
Pidgeot
It not just prior damage it has to worry about here, it loses to mien and gatr (both sd and dd) if it switches in on rocks and barely scrapes past a +1 lo mence after rocks. The rock weakness is just such a big issue for it, especially since it's a mon that has to remove them and so often switches in on them.
Ferligatr at least can't switch in, and if Mandi comes in on the SD turn you better hope Feraligatr doesn't have any prior damage:
+2 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 267-315 (83.9 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 335-395 (79.1 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mandi is a good mon - but it has some difficulties. All in all a solid addition to the tier, I see it at A rank.
I feel that both the versatility and effectiveness of what role mandibuzz will play is being understated here. I've used Mandibuzz quite a bit over the past couple of days on balance (its best playstyle IMO) and it really does its job well, assuming you don't expect it to more of its job than it should. If played right, Mandibuzz is firstly a good defogger and secondly a wall, and having access to such a fast taunt (80 speed is extraordinary for a pokemon if its bulk and typing) is really amazing for putting a ton of pressure on defensive teams. IMO its best set is Roost / Defog / Taunt / Foul Play, but it's incredibly versatile as a defensive defogger. Honestly, defog isn't even necessary on Mandibuzz, and you could amp up the speed investment and leave off defog if you want to create a purely stallbreaking-oriented set, but I think for the most part defog and roost are absolutely mandatory on every set. This leaves some wiggle room: Foul Play is incredible, but Knock Off can also be used depending if you want to be able to cripple more defensive teams with both Foul Play and Taunt or whether you want to play more of a defensive role against offensive teams, being able to keep up in damage dealt to you by dealing significant amounts of damage to powerful physical attackers. For example, Foul Play has a chance to OHKO SD Mega Abomasnow at +2, whereas mandibuzz only takes ~60% from +2 ice shard with decent physical investment. The next slot is also a tossup, mostly between Taunt / Toxic; because of its versatility, mandibuzz again has an option. Taunt is simply incredible at its speed tier, only needing to invest 44 speed to outspeed 0 speed base 85s (0 speed Suicune, for example.) This means it has a lot of wiggle room for defensive investment after that. Of course, while taunt is very nice it's not necessary, and Toxic can be run to cripple things that like to switch into Mandibuzz, or just to whittle down defensive teams. You can even run Roost/Defog/Taunt/Toxic if you want, but Mandibuzz is going to be helpless against things like SubSD Feraligatr which it should be beating.
Mandibuzz has to take a specific role on your team. It's by no means the best wall in the tier, and will find itself dying due to hazard pressure before it can play a huge role in most games if you try to play it like that. It can take hits from some of the hardest-hitting pokemon in the tier (hydreigon, mienshao, gatr, never ohkod by either nido) but, again, its effectiveness relies on how well your team managing entry hazards. It's safe to assume it will have to switchin on stealth rocks quite often, which whittles down its own health very quickly and leaves it in a helpless position against a lot of common offensive pokemon. However, it is probably still the best defogger currently in the tier. It can defog on almost every defensive pokemon in the tier (the only reason I don't list offensive pokemon in this category is because it will often need to click roost after switching or taking a hit from stuff like Hydreigon, Mienshao or Entei, and this means it can't get off a defog before the opponent can scare it out against offense.) The only SR users that it loses to are Nidoqueen (not counting king, although he fits technically), Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Steelix, Rhyperior, and Mamoswine. You'll notice that two of those are very uncommon (lix and rhyp), and two of those are currently not running SR very often (mamo, you'll only find on HO running lead rocks and aero almost never runs SR.) It's one of the only defoggers in the tier capable of beating SR Krook, which can usually customize itself to beat its defogger of choice, but Mandibuzz's great bulk means even if Krook runs Stone Edge it fails to 2HKO without rocks up first, and even then it has to get two-almost-max rolls assuming it can actually get up rocks in the first place. The premier defogger people usually slap on teams is Crobat due to its ability to beat Heracross and other fighting-types so easily, but Crobat loses to nearly every SR user in the tier while Mandibuzz can beat most of them. To summarize this point, Mandibuzz doesn't find its role on teams for being a supreme wall capable of switching into large amounts of pokemon in the tier, because with a SR-weak pokemon that usually runs mixed bulk investment that role is illogical. Its best niche in UU is the extremely efficent defogging role it can take on, and when paired with its utility and versatility it means it's the optimal choice for a defensive defogger (or just a defogger in general) on almost every balance team. It's going to be an incredible addition to this tier.
In terms of VR rankings, I would estimate it will be either A- or A. It doesn't wall so much of the tier that it deserves an A+ or S ranking, and is generally pressured too much by the hazards it is employed to get rid of. However, it's just too good at the job it has to be a B+ ranked or lower pokemon. It's probably the best defogger in the tier right now and also serves as a great defensive pokemon which can do much more just sit there and roost on offensive pokemon. Foul Play and Taunt allows it to dish out surprisingly large amounts of damage, and the effectiveness of 110 / 95 / 95 bulk cannot be overstated.
tl;dr: great defogger, pretty good defensive pokemon, a- or a, very versatile and effective at its job
Mandibuzz has to take a specific role on your team. It's by no means the best wall in the tier, and will find itself dying due to hazard pressure before it can play a huge role in most games if you try to play it like that. It can take hits from some of the hardest-hitting pokemon in the tier (hydreigon, mienshao, gatr, never ohkod by either nido) but, again, its effectiveness relies on how well your team managing entry hazards. It's safe to assume it will have to switchin on stealth rocks quite often, which whittles down its own health very quickly and leaves it in a helpless position against a lot of common offensive pokemon. However, it is probably still the best defogger currently in the tier. It can defog on almost every defensive pokemon in the tier (the only reason I don't list offensive pokemon in this category is because it will often need to click roost after switching or taking a hit from stuff like Hydreigon, Mienshao or Entei, and this means it can't get off a defog before the opponent can scare it out against offense.) The only SR users that it loses to are Nidoqueen (not counting king, although he fits technically), Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Steelix, Rhyperior, and Mamoswine. You'll notice that two of those are very uncommon (lix and rhyp), and two of those are currently not running SR very often (mamo, you'll only find on HO running lead rocks and aero almost never runs SR.) It's one of the only defoggers in the tier capable of beating SR Krook, which can usually customize itself to beat its defogger of choice, but Mandibuzz's great bulk means even if Krook runs Stone Edge it fails to 2HKO without rocks up first, and even then it has to get two-almost-max rolls assuming it can actually get up rocks in the first place. The premier defogger people usually slap on teams is Crobat due to its ability to beat Heracross and other fighting-types so easily, but Crobat loses to nearly every SR user in the tier while Mandibuzz can beat most of them. To summarize this point, Mandibuzz doesn't find its role on teams for being a supreme wall capable of switching into large amounts of pokemon in the tier, because with a SR-weak pokemon that usually runs mixed bulk investment that role is illogical. Its best niche in UU is the extremely efficent defogging role it can take on, and when paired with its utility and versatility it means it's the optimal choice for a defensive defogger (or just a defogger in general) on almost every balance team. It's going to be an incredible addition to this tier.
In terms of VR rankings, I would estimate it will be either A- or A. It doesn't wall so much of the tier that it deserves an A+ or S ranking, and is generally pressured too much by the hazards it is employed to get rid of. However, it's just too good at the job it has to be a B+ ranked or lower pokemon. It's probably the best defogger in the tier right now and also serves as a great defensive pokemon which can do much more just sit there and roost on offensive pokemon. Foul Play and Taunt allows it to dish out surprisingly large amounts of damage, and the effectiveness of 110 / 95 / 95 bulk cannot be overstated.
tl;dr: great defogger, pretty good defensive pokemon, a- or a, very versatile and effective at its job
My issue with mandibuzz again is mainly its competition with the hugely slept on fatmece. It too is a really fat flying type defogger with reliable recovery, however it maintains its fighting and bug resist, making it the best hera check in the tier and one of the best fighting type checks, has a resist to fire which also let's it check entei and darm, and has a fantastic speed tier that lets it creep and finish off some big threats. It can run any of its incredible coverage to deal with specific threats and rockers, like earthquake for the nidos and emp, hydro pump for krook or the nidos, flame thrower for forry etc.
Mandibuzz does have some advantages, such as dealing better with dragons and gatr, but then you look at the calcs and it loses to a lot of them after rocks and the tiniest bit of chip damage anyway. It also has access to taunt and the coveted foul play, which are really nice options and legitimate reasons for it to be used, but I feel that A is way, way too high for what I largely see as outclassed.
I also think as a pure wall umbreon outdoes it against the things people are hyping that it checks (gatr mence krook etc.), so I'm not entirely sure when I'd use it on stall either, especially as fatmence/flying type that outspeeds hera is basically mandatory there, and you don't want mandibuzz filling that flying slot. I think it belongs in B+
Mandibuzz does have some advantages, such as dealing better with dragons and gatr, but then you look at the calcs and it loses to a lot of them after rocks and the tiniest bit of chip damage anyway. It also has access to taunt and the coveted foul play, which are really nice options and legitimate reasons for it to be used, but I feel that A is way, way too high for what I largely see as outclassed.
I also think as a pure wall umbreon outdoes it against the things people are hyping that it checks (gatr mence krook etc.), so I'm not entirely sure when I'd use it on stall either, especially as fatmence/flying type that outspeeds hera is basically mandatory there, and you don't want mandibuzz filling that flying slot. I think it belongs in B+
Fatmence is a great Defogger, I agree, and it has coverage to hit things it should like Earthquake for Nidos / Steels, Fire Blast for Forry, and so on; however, Mandibuzz is really good at checking physical attackers with Foul Play and also beating up on Pokemon that rely on their items such as Nidoqueen's Life Orb. Like I said previously, SpDef Mandibuzz is the better set anyways as it can tank a lot of special attackers. I will just link my post here and here to discuss why SpDef is better. Overall, each Defogger in the tier has their own unique way of fulfilling a spot on teams and as such gives us as a tier a plethora of options, which is always a good thing. :)
Fatmence acts as a general everything physical check too though- even when it creeps adamant hera they have nigh-identical physical bulk. Scrolling through the list of uu mons and the only physical things mandibuzz beats that mence doesn't is... mence itself, while mence has the long list of fighting types and the few fire types over it. Without spdef investment neither check very much on that side besides shaymin.
I agree Spdef seems really cool though, I just think phys def mandi is largely outclassed :o
I want to jump on the hype train too and say that mandibuzz is outclassed. Its physically defensive set is probably better done by fatmence who does literally everything mandibuzz does except running a taunt roost set and having access to foul play. Salamence has more coverage and can still bop things while uninvested because of its sheer power. Salamence also can check heracross and entei which is arguably the most defining aspect of fatmence over mandibuzz. Physical walls should be able to check at least one of those imo and Mandibuzz can't check either. Salamence is also versatile as well which was supposed to be Mandibuzz's defining niche.
As for its taunt roost set, I feel Mandibuzz's set is outclassed by taunt roost hydregion. Hydregion can run an offensive taunt roost set with LO or it can run a defensive one with toxic over draco meteor because of its plethora of resistances. The only really good merit I see in Mandibuzz is its specially defensive set which my argument is pretty much the same as NV's. Even a mixed set could work wonders imo
As for its taunt roost set, I feel Mandibuzz's set is outclassed by taunt roost hydregion. Hydregion can run an offensive taunt roost set with LO or it can run a defensive one with toxic over draco meteor because of its plethora of resistances. The only really good merit I see in Mandibuzz is its specially defensive set which my argument is pretty much the same as NV's. Even a mixed set could work wonders imo
SpDef Mandi is a huge threat. Idk what you are talking about with Taunt Roost Hydrei outclassing it thats just dumb tbh. Mandi takes under half from florges's moonblast (this is with >max investment bc speed evs) which means it can beat it one on one stalling with taunt and toxic. I dont think I need to say what happens to hydrei one on one with florg. Just like mew was able to get stall breaker sweeps when it was around Mandi can do the same. Put along with the right teammates its extremely hard to break and does work against balance and stall. I feel like were gonna see how good mandi is when people start building with it more, it def with conjuction with other mons make "unbreakable cores" on stall and defensive balance.
Definitely agreeing with GULLY - I've been toying with Specially Defensive Mandi with Taunt/Knock Off/Foul Play/Roost and its similarities to Mew are really strong. It's probably my favorite Mandi set right now, with the ability to do really good work when used on semi-stall and hazard-heavy balance teams.
Mandibuzz is extremely versatile, being able to work as a long-term Stallbreaker and self-reliant Wall at the same time. Gully is totally right, the SpD set is a huge threat, and, frankly, there aren't many Pokemon in the tier that can work around this combination of 110/105/95 bulk stat distribution (that also happen to outspeed base 80).
Foul play is renowned for being able to stop a plethora of setup sweepers, or even Pokemon with high Attack. I've seen mixed bulk Mandibuzz's destroy teams early in this drop phaze, and, so far, I see it to be a good fit for the UU game, easily sitting at an A- if not A on the Viability Rankings
Foul play is renowned for being able to stop a plethora of setup sweepers, or even Pokemon with high Attack. I've seen mixed bulk Mandibuzz's destroy teams early in this drop phaze, and, so far, I see it to be a good fit for the UU game, easily sitting at an A- if not A on the Viability Rankings
All this talk of Mandibuzz makes me happy since one of my favorite Pokemon in UU to use is Kyurem. Bring your SpDef sets on, assholes, Ice Beam don't give a shit.
But seriously, a set of Ice Beam/Earth Power/Iron Head/Outrage pretty much singlehandedly destroys stall and balance cores if they don't have a bulky mono-Water like Suicune or Mega Blastoise. Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse would help to break bulky waters, but you lose valuable type-coverage somewhere. Special walls that aren't Fairy get donked by Outrage, Iron Head 2HKOs 252/232+ Florges, Earth Power punishes Steels and Fire-types trying to switch in on Ice Beam, and Ice Beam just hits like a fucking truck.
Favorite spread currently is 68 Atk / 252 SpA / 188 Spe with a Hasty Nature to beat Entei. Used to run 80 Atk and 176 Spe for Nidoking, but he's fallen off the map/beating Entei for only 3 more EVs is too worth it. The very first rendition of this was 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe with a Mild Nature to beat Adamant Base 90s (Lucario was the goal), but the speed is, again, more important.
But seriously, a set of Ice Beam/Earth Power/Iron Head/Outrage pretty much singlehandedly destroys stall and balance cores if they don't have a bulky mono-Water like Suicune or Mega Blastoise. Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse would help to break bulky waters, but you lose valuable type-coverage somewhere. Special walls that aren't Fairy get donked by Outrage, Iron Head 2HKOs 252/232+ Florges, Earth Power punishes Steels and Fire-types trying to switch in on Ice Beam, and Ice Beam just hits like a fucking truck.
Favorite spread currently is 68 Atk / 252 SpA / 188 Spe with a Hasty Nature to beat Entei. Used to run 80 Atk and 176 Spe for Nidoking, but he's fallen off the map/beating Entei for only 3 more EVs is too worth it. The very first rendition of this was 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe with a Mild Nature to beat Adamant Base 90s (Lucario was the goal), but the speed is, again, more important.
Does anyone feel like Stall is viable in this Metagame? I'm finding there are way too many threats to deal with even for a combination of bulky pokemon. Anyone having any success with stall?
It's quite viable. If you need an introduction to the stall metagame, click here. Disclaimer: I get really annoyed in this one cause I don't like stall too much, but it will definitely help you.
Stall is decently viable, mostly because Porygon2 is God and checks everything. Seriously, Porgon2 really helps stall teams check lots of troublesome Pokemon, like Hydra, Salamence, Gatr, Mamo, Mega Sharpedo.
Stall is not as good as it was before, but it is usable.
I'm by no means the authority here, but I feel like it's worth it to say it outright.
I can really see fighting flourishing with the new drops, especially setup mons like Lucario. Maybe not in a sweeping role, but they can really put a lot of holes in the drops given the chance considering one's fighting weak, the other neutral and sorta incapable of truly hitting back hard as far as I know.
Of course, I'm probably horribly wrong, but this is just something I noticed earlier and posted in the wrong place.
I can really see fighting flourishing with the new drops, especially setup mons like Lucario. Maybe not in a sweeping role, but they can really put a lot of holes in the drops given the chance considering one's fighting weak, the other neutral and sorta incapable of truly hitting back hard as far as I know.
Of course, I'm probably horribly wrong, but this is just something I noticed earlier and posted in the wrong place.
I'll have to disagree, I don't think p2 is very good on stall. Bulky normal is a highly, highly contested slot on the playstyle with the nigh-mandatory Blissey and one of the best wincons in Snorlax fighting for it, and pory2 often loses this battle because it doesn't really bring any utility to the table. Blissey has rocks, heal bell and wish support, Snorlax is a fantastic wincon but pory2 doesn't really bring anything besides checking some important threats (Not to mention knock off is the most common coverage on Mamo and pory2 is nigh useless if it takes one of those). If I wanted a mon to check all of those mentioned threats on stall I'd rather go with umbreon (ye im mentioning it again because it's really good rn) who can offer me heal bell and wish support on top of dealing with them.
But yeah stall is pretty good right now, offense and balance are definitely still in a stronger place but the slight decrease in Reuni, SD Hera and Entei compared to a month or so ago have helped eased the pressure on the playstyle a little. I've noticed however that hazard stacking is very powerful right now which is a playstyle with a good matchup vs stall, so it's not all good.
But yeah stall is pretty good right now, offense and balance are definitely still in a stronger place but the slight decrease in Reuni, SD Hera and Entei compared to a month or so ago have helped eased the pressure on the playstyle a little. I've noticed however that hazard stacking is very powerful right now which is a playstyle with a good matchup vs stall, so it's not all good.
Oh shit.
I get a really, really bad feeling about Victini.
I get a really, really bad feeling about Victini.
Well im sure that kokoloko will be very happy to hear this news.
Already i'm not supporting this idea, even though we got Mamo and Mandi last tier shift, and Salamence the one before, Victini is still a hyper-powerful wallbreaker and nuke that will be able to put numbers on much of the meta with mives like V-Create, Zen Headbutt, Bolt Strike, Glaciate, U-Turn, Thunder, Searing Shot, Ice Beam and a lot more coverage options, as well as some really great support moves, but only testing will tell if it is broken or not.
I was here after the victini meta but I've only heard about how cancer it is. What exactly does Victini do that makes it so good?
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