From what Sweep said, he will be making a post later about Genesect taking a dive in ranking. If theres a huge power difference between the rankings due to the S- removal and A+/A moving down, then we can move A-/B+ and lower mons down to eventually balance them out. The question is, what ones should drop? Im currently thinking Ray/Tyranitar/Darkceus/Yveltal/Dialga/Deo-S (and maybe Gira-O) from A- to B+ while moving Fairyceus, Genesect, Groudon and Forretress from B+ to B. I'll update early next week with the agreed changes once we figure them out.
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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
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Yveltal deserves a place in A- at least,It can be a very good defensive Mon with great bulk checking the most popular offensive threats(Mence,Don,Ekiller,Ghostceus) and dealing massive damage in return. It also has a very strong priority enough to 1 shot Lati twins/Mewtwo who are all up the viability ranking thread. So It has a huge utility to drop down A.
Also the offensive set can easily break threw some forms of balance/stall ,revenge kill with a very strong prio and with uturn can make you gain momentum. definitely A material.
I really don't get why everything in the A ranks has to shuffle down when S- was removed when literally 80% of them were at their previous rank before S- was even implemented. Having extremely viable support mons such as Keys, Gira-O, Dialga, and even Ygod in lower ranks just unsettles me a bit when there haven't been any major tier changes whatsoever. Also, because pretty much the entirety of the A Ranks have been moved down, wouldn't mons that have been in the B Ranks due to their prevalence move up in viability rather than down (not all of course, but this doesn't warrant the entire ranks below S- to be completely reworked)?
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ya well, this was half the reason i was very against the idea of changing s- in the first place - i spent a bunch of time fixing up the criteria so having sub categories in S was acceptable, and now that things are changed back we got a bunch of oddballs. I'll probably just look into moving the current A- rank around and leave everything else because most people are content with it, but first i need to hear who in A- people believe is in an oddball position and why.
Dialga and Groudon are the oddballs to me. I don't exactly understand the appeal of Dialga in the ORAS meta right now as opposed to the XY one. What exactly is it doing effectively to warrant A- as opposed to B+ considering all the stuff in A- right now?
Groudon Idk why it's that high in B+ either. I guess you could use the argument its a decent pdon check and can hold an item but I find myself just wanting to use PDon everytime I use Groudon lol.
Groudon Idk why it's that high in B+ either. I guess you could use the argument its a decent pdon check and can hold an item but I find myself just wanting to use PDon everytime I use Groudon lol.
Not sure why dialga is so high either. I'm assuming its because of the fact that it can soft-check mence with Shuca berry as well as reliably provide SR support, but that doesn't seem like a niche that good enough for A- Rank, at least imo.
Groudon is ranked pretty high due to it being one of the few mons that check Primal Groudon while reliably setting up SR. Its also able to provide sun support to Ho-Oh, making the latter extremely dangerous. That being said, Primal Kyogre's increased usage may be a reason for it to drop.
...how is Dialga a soft check with shuca berry? If you can retain that berry, you check mence pretty damn solidly in my opinion. Also, it's a rock setter with a decent punch behind it with dracometeor. If you want to go offensive Pdon and not be using HO (ie: ruling out the deos) then it's the next best rock setter.
Vanilla Groudon being ranked so high just because it checks Primal Groudon makes no sense because it has the highest opportunity cost in the metagame.
Lots of decent megas and Arceus formes have been dumped into the C ranks for this very reason even though their opportunity cost is nowhere near as high as regular Groudon and they can do more than just checking a single pokemon (and even though Primal Groudon is the best pokemon in ubers, it does have multiple checks and you certainly don't need vanilla Groudon to check it).
Aside from checking P.Don, regular Groudon can't do anything that P.Don doesn't do better. I'd say it should drop somewhere into the C ranks.
Lots of decent megas and Arceus formes have been dumped into the C ranks for this very reason even though their opportunity cost is nowhere near as high as regular Groudon and they can do more than just checking a single pokemon (and even though Primal Groudon is the best pokemon in ubers, it does have multiple checks and you certainly don't need vanilla Groudon to check it).
Aside from checking P.Don, regular Groudon can't do anything that P.Don doesn't do better. I'd say it should drop somewhere into the C ranks.
It also fits some sun builds that appreciate the sun being up, and it isn't significantly worse than Primal Groudon to the point of being outclassed, because they do different things. Regular groudon is a physical wall (afaik) which beats most rock setters in the current metagame who provides sun for the likes of Ho-oh and blaziken, which Primal Groudon doesn't.
EDIT: It probably is too high at B+, I'd say move it down to B personally, and any lower than B- is way too low for it.
EDIT: It probably is too high at B+, I'd say move it down to B personally, and any lower than B- is way too low for it.
Probably meh nomination time!
Cresselia: Unranked ------> C-/C
With how physical of a meta ORAS has, Cresselia could have a niche as a physical wall. Something it has over other physical walls in this meta(and Psychic Arceus lol) is an immunity to the most common coverage type(Ground) and reliable recovery in Moonlight(albeit with 8 PP), which with the drop in usage of rain and sand, benefits Cresselia greatly(not sure whether harsh sun makes Moonlight restore more HP, though). She also lacks a Stealth Rock weakness(hi Lugia).
Things Cress can check:
Unboosted PDons(offensive max Attack Adamant variants only have a 3% chance to 4HKO with Stone Edge, can 3HKO with Fire Punch, and obvs PBlades does nothing, only things that really threaten Cresselia are Lava Plume/Overheat with 3HKOs and 2HKOs respectively. SD variants are problematic though).
MegaMence(unboosted Double Edge 3HKOs and Cress' uninvested Ice Beam 2HKOs Mence, bulky or not, which means that Cress can win if there are rocks on Mence's side or uses Ice Beam on the switch).
Other SD Arceus(Ghost cannot be walled, Ground can be checked, Bug probably can't be walled but who uses that, Dragon can be walled unboosted)
These points also ignore the possibility of carrying Reflect, which makes her walling job easier.
However, here come the cons and why I make the nomination for C at best:
-Problems with Dark-types
-Taunt bait
-Slow(though most walls are anyway)
-Problems with Ghost-types
-Uninvested special bulk means things like Kyogre plow through it
-Some problems with Bug-types
There's no denying she has her issues, but I still believe she has a respectable niche. If it's unfeasible then shoot it down, I'm just giving an opinion.
Cresselia: Unranked ------> C-/C
With how physical of a meta ORAS has, Cresselia could have a niche as a physical wall. Something it has over other physical walls in this meta(and Psychic Arceus lol) is an immunity to the most common coverage type(Ground) and reliable recovery in Moonlight(albeit with 8 PP), which with the drop in usage of rain and sand, benefits Cresselia greatly(not sure whether harsh sun makes Moonlight restore more HP, though). She also lacks a Stealth Rock weakness(hi Lugia).
Things Cress can check:
Unboosted PDons(offensive max Attack Adamant variants only have a 3% chance to 4HKO with Stone Edge, can 3HKO with Fire Punch, and obvs PBlades does nothing, only things that really threaten Cresselia are Lava Plume/Overheat with 3HKOs and 2HKOs respectively. SD variants are problematic though).
MegaMence(unboosted Double Edge 3HKOs and Cress' uninvested Ice Beam 2HKOs Mence, bulky or not, which means that Cress can win if there are rocks on Mence's side or uses Ice Beam on the switch).
Other SD Arceus(Ghost cannot be walled, Ground can be checked, Bug probably can't be walled but who uses that, Dragon can be walled unboosted)
These points also ignore the possibility of carrying Reflect, which makes her walling job easier.
However, here come the cons and why I make the nomination for C at best:
-Problems with Dark-types
-Taunt bait
-Slow(though most walls are anyway)
-Problems with Ghost-types
-Uninvested special bulk means things like Kyogre plow through it
-Some problems with Bug-types
There's no denying she has her issues, but I still believe she has a respectable niche. If it's unfeasible then shoot it down, I'm just giving an opinion.
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"Sun builds" are teams with ho-oh and while you can justify a non-pdon because you have a lati already, and a soft (albeit very soft) xerneas check as well. But does ho-oh really gain anything from sun? The answer is no. Like what is it supposed to hit harder? Everything common is hit harder by brave bird than sf in sun anyway, so I don't quite see the point. Groudon is a blanket physical wall that checks something once... and makes it so you can't use the best mon in he game. Seriously why would I use this mon except on that ONE team it just happens to work on?
e: to what jibaku said, oh I didn't think of lugia fair point. I guess sun does have tangible benefits, but does it really justify groudon on many teams? Pdon is still so much better and you lose out on that greatness when using pdon tip
Groudon to b MID imo
Thanks Kurona, I'm a big dummy. Also arceus grass is still in b mid e.e That should go to c+ and b- at most because it doesn't actually beat pogre (has to run calm mind lol!) and kinda loses vs a lot of other stuff. Doubt you can viably use this mon, so it fits right in with the other c+ arc formes.
e: to what jibaku said, oh I didn't think of lugia fair point. I guess sun does have tangible benefits, but does it really justify groudon on many teams? Pdon is still so much better and you lose out on that greatness when using pdon tip
Groudon to b MID imo
Thanks Kurona, I'm a big dummy. Also arceus grass is still in b mid e.e That should go to c+ and b- at most because it doesn't actually beat pogre (has to run calm mind lol!) and kinda loses vs a lot of other stuff. Doubt you can viably use this mon, so it fits right in with the other c+ arc formes.
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Wobbuffet is in B; you probably just misspelled it while Ctrl-Fing.
CB Sacred Fire stuff:
Now 2HKOes Bold Arceus (except water/rock/dragon/fire obv)
Potentially OHKOes 252/0 Arceus
2HKOes Lugia
2HKOes enemy Ho-Oh. Yes I'm aware BB hits harder, but since Ho-Oh itself is normally a great Sacred Fire absorber, the sun can make it think twice. Ofc the enemy Ho-Oh can probably do the same to you if it gets the chance to though.
High chance of OHKOing standard GeoXern. Also Thunder is now a coinflip.
Basically it's a really scary wallbreaker now. I don't think these calcs are insignificant.
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On the other hand a vanilla Groudon + Ho-oh core is extremely weak to Primal Kyogre. This shouldn't be underestimated since the only reason P.Ogre isn't S+ rank itself is because of P.Don's very existance.
...no. Pogre doesn't bring nearly the level of centralisation that pdon does, and is far less splashable. If pdon were banned, Pogre would be on par with some of the other S ranked pokemon, but given that pogre forces pdon out, I dont really consider Pdon that huge when it comes to it. Pdon is easily the worst primal kyogre check in my honest opinion.
I was surprised to find out yesterday that Bronzong was not Ranked.
1)It's a solid Xerneas check.
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 176 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 296-350 (67.7 - 80%)
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 187-221 (55.3 - 65.3%)
2)Checks(Counters actually unless hp fire) Lati twins and set up rocks on them since he will push them out.
3)Counters Mega Diancie.
4)Checks non Fire move Primal Groudon and Out stall it with Toxic Protect.
5)Offensive Arceus Ground, It totally stops it as well as Non shadow claw Ekillers and many support arceus forms like Waterceus.
6)Counters Shaymin.
It's totally useful against many threats and can set up rocks without risks on very common defoggers(Lati twins and watercues). It should totally be ranked and even in the B category.
I want also to talk about others mons later but now I have to leave. Anyway, I think we should give people more options in building by introducing niche pokemons to this thread. All teams looks exactly the same and we should do our best to give more team building options to everybody.
1)It's a solid Xerneas check.
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 176 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 296-350 (67.7 - 80%)
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 187-221 (55.3 - 65.3%)
2)Checks(Counters actually unless hp fire) Lati twins and set up rocks on them since he will push them out.
3)Counters Mega Diancie.
4)Checks non Fire move Primal Groudon and Out stall it with Toxic Protect.
5)Offensive Arceus Ground, It totally stops it as well as Non shadow claw Ekillers and many support arceus forms like Waterceus.
6)Counters Shaymin.
It's totally useful against many threats and can set up rocks without risks on very common defoggers(Lati twins and watercues). It should totally be ranked and even in the B category.
I want also to talk about others mons later but now I have to leave. Anyway, I think we should give people more options in building by introducing niche pokemons to this thread. All teams looks exactly the same and we should do our best to give more team building options to everybody.
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It was rejected in XY, not ORAS. I think zonger has a place in oras personally, so ranking it would be cool. C rank seems fitting.
I agree with regular Kyogre to d rank though.
I agree with regular Kyogre to d rank though.
Supporting a drop for Darkceus / Yveltal / Tyranitar, and can be talked into dropping Rayquaza. I'd like to see Dialga stay A-, though; Shuca checks Kyogre and Mega Salamence very well, in addition to certain CM Arceus formes. It also has a good matchup vs. both Magic Bounce users, and so long it carries a status move it can beat Defog users barring the mediocre support Groundceus as well. I'd also like to see Deoxys-S stay in A-, both the Spikes and Screens sets work nicely and the Deo-S HO archetype is incredibly dangerous. It's only good as a lead, sure, but it's more versatile than people give it credit for because it can utilize Knock Off / Skill Swap / Dual Screens / Magic Coat (lel) depending on the set. I'm fine with Fairy Arceus, Forry, and regular Groudon dropping to B. However, I'd like Genesect to drop lower than that.
It's a terrible Pokemon in the metagame. First of all, with the introduction of the Fairy-type AND Primal Groudon, the special set from Gen 5 is no longer viable. There are no Sun-boosted Flamethrowers to throw around anymore, and Bug is currently one of the worst attacking moves in the game. As Dice mentioned earlier, since Sticky Web is dreadful in ORAS it can never revenge a healthy Geomancy Xerneas either, because any coverage move will OHKO (as will Moonblast after a tiny bit of chip damage). Primal Groudon hard walls Genesect, and while you can U-turn out on it early game it completely owns anything you try to do late game. Genesect has a much harder time punishing shit with switches nowadays because keeping hazards up isn't close to as easy as it was last generation; U-turn spam is FAR less threatening without Spikes support. Because it isn't a reliable Xerneas check, Genesect's newfound Fairy resistance is almost completely useless. I guess you bop CM Xerneas and Fairy Arceus but the former is rare and the latter is practically non-existent. However, the nerf Steel types suffered to Dark- and Ghost-type attacks cost Genesect2 of its 3-4 most important resistances. Now enemy Darkrai don't have to click Focus Blast in anticipation of a Genesect switch after it has slept something; it can simply spam Dark Pulse and severely punish any attempt to get Genesect in to revenge Darkrai or force it out. It also struggles badly to come in on a +1 Dark Arceus, whereas in Gen 5 it could come in and do ~65-70% with U-turn and force it to Recover (or force it out of the field of play entirely). Finally, it cannot Iron Head chain hax a CM Ghost Arceus to death nearly as often as it did before. Admittedly that was never a "reliable" way of dealing with Ghost Arceus anyway, but it worked often did it not???
Genesect's flaws outweigh its "strengths." Although Genesect still revenges Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Lati@s, Mewtwo-Y, and Darkrai, it cannot revenge a +1 Mega Salamence or Mewtwo-X. In fact, it gets annihilated by both. Unlike in Gen 5, where Genesect could revenge most common set-up sweepers when they are in U-turn or even Explosion range, Genesect cannot deal with the two of the most common sweepers in XY (xern and mence) and is only a mediocre answer to Extreme Killer Arceus. Also, LO Deoxys-A and LO Rayquaza are somewhat less common, giving Genesect less threats to revenge. Also, consider this: Genesect can only fit on offensive teams because it can't check much reliably for balance, yet it is MASSIVE Defog bait for almost any Arceus forme. If your opponent's Ghost Arceus can get in on Genesect after it has spammed Ice Beam or something to revenge a Rayquaza, you've lost your hazards. Genesect is forced to carry (and spam) Explosion on Deo-S HO teams for this reason...those teams absolutely need to keep pressure with hazards. Spamming U-turn every time Genesect comes in helps with this problem, but doesn't entirely solve it. For example, if the opponent has a Sash or Custap lead at 1% health on the bench and you have SR up, your Genesect is almost discouraged from coming in on something like Rayquaza or CM Latios because they can just sac their suicide lead and easily Defog with Arceus / defensive Salamence / what have you. Oh, using this exact same scenario they can also set up Geo Xern and potentially wipe out your entire team xD (since you're not running Genesect and Klefki on the same team).
TL;DR
1. U-turn spam less effective because this metagame isn't as hazard-centric
2. Less Pokemon it can reliably revenge
3. Primal Groudon exists
4. Can be taken advantage of in certain situations
5. Lost two crucial resistances
6. Genesect = bad
B- please
I'm not saying I disagree with a drop for Genesect, in fact I kinda do agree, but please tell me how the fuck the introduction of the Fairy-type made special Genesect unviable
special genesect spams bug buzz and fairies resists bug.
e:
Sweep I don't understand your thought progress for dropping ttar. Ttar is clearly more flexible and fits in more teams than Deo-s does, yet you want to drop ttar and not deo-s? IMO, deo-s fits B+ perfectly and ttar should stay in A- for being the only decent pursuiter and sand teams niche. I still haven't seen any good deo-s team, and that sample team is awful. It's losing more than it's winning in tours atm.
e:
Sweep I don't understand your thought progress for dropping ttar. Ttar is clearly more flexible and fits in more teams than Deo-s does, yet you want to drop ttar and not deo-s? IMO, deo-s fits B+ perfectly and ttar should stay in A- for being the only decent pursuiter and sand teams niche. I still haven't seen any good deo-s team, and that sample team is awful. It's losing more than it's winning in tours atm.
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Actually, after looking at the lists, I feel like C- is more fitting for normal Kyogre as it still offensively owns Groundceus and Excadrill harder than anything and applies pressure to the eons on a sand team. Fightceus has more of a niche than it and about the same opportunity cost. Fightceus' niche does make it applicable on very few teams, but teams nonetheless. Kyogre I am having trouble finding a team for, but I am sure there is one somewhere. Idk, perhaps have Kyogre in C- and Fightceus in C?
Why drop Tyranitar though? It is useful on so many teams its silly to drop it from where it is imo. Sand offense isn't the greatest thing ever I will admit, but sand balance and Tyranitar Stall are both extremely good cases for it to stay where it is. It needs to be used in conjunction with a few mandatory partners for support and such, but if we were going purely off of this, Ho-Oh would be A to A- just because of how much of this it needs. Speaking of Ho-Oh, Tyranitar pairs well with this thing anyways since it allows another form of hazard removal in Excadrill and pairs extremely well with Defog Arceus-Water -just one example out of many ways Tyranitar can fit on teams. Tyranitar does not deserve the B rank boot imo.
Why drop Tyranitar though? It is useful on so many teams its silly to drop it from where it is imo. Sand offense isn't the greatest thing ever I will admit, but sand balance and Tyranitar Stall are both extremely good cases for it to stay where it is. It needs to be used in conjunction with a few mandatory partners for support and such, but if we were going purely off of this, Ho-Oh would be A to A- just because of how much of this it needs. Speaking of Ho-Oh, Tyranitar pairs well with this thing anyways since it allows another form of hazard removal in Excadrill and pairs extremely well with Defog Arceus-Water -just one example out of many ways Tyranitar can fit on teams. Tyranitar does not deserve the B rank boot imo.
The Fairy type did not magically make Steel STAB spammable in the slightest. For example, Primal Kyogre, Primal Groudon, AND Ho-Oh all laugh at Flash Cannon.
Stealth edit re: Orch's post: the sample team is not awful lol, see its SPL win rate on top of how well mediocre ladder players do with it. It's beatable and mindless, and maybe a bit overrated, but it's plenty good. Tyranitar I'm fine with in A-, I guess I'm on the fence with it but I cannot argue with your points. Its weaknesses and lack of reliable recovery are unfortunate though; it has a terrible time trying to pursuit Latios and setting up SR in the same match, so it can be overwhelmed in trying to accomplish its roles. Again, I won't argue much on Tyranitar.
Alright so, here's the update. Seems that everyone is content with most things after the S- removal, so after this bunch of changes, things should be back to normal.
Change List:
Arceus-Dark: A- >>> B+
Arceus-Grass: B >>> C+
Kyogre: C+ >>> C (guys have mercy on the whale)
Genesect: B+ >>> B-
Groudon: B+ >>> B
Lugia: A- >>> A (supreme overlord fireburn is cleaning things up)
Mewtwo + Mewtwo Y: A- >>> A (^)
Forretress: B+ >>> B
Discussion Points
Rayquaza
Mega Gengar
Arceus-Fairy
While Bronzong and Cresselia were nominated, without them passing for an analysis first they cannot be placed on this list. Bronzong was originally rejected at the start of ORAS, but QC feels that it is worth giving another try at it. Feel free to reserve them here if you feel like writing their analyses. The guide how on to do it is all in that thread.
Change List:
Arceus-Dark: A- >>> B+
Arceus-Grass: B >>> C+
Kyogre: C+ >>> C (guys have mercy on the whale)
Genesect: B+ >>> B-
Groudon: B+ >>> B
Lugia: A- >>> A (supreme overlord fireburn is cleaning things up)
Mewtwo + Mewtwo Y: A- >>> A (^)
Forretress: B+ >>> B
Discussion Points
Rayquaza
Mega Gengar
Arceus-Fairy
While Bronzong and Cresselia were nominated, without them passing for an analysis first they cannot be placed on this list. Bronzong was originally rejected at the start of ORAS, but QC feels that it is worth giving another try at it. Feel free to reserve them here if you feel like writing their analyses. The guide how on to do it is all in that thread.
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