Metagame np: Stage 6 - The Boys Are Back

[Winter's Howl]

Hp ground on ferroseed is absolutely awful. You beat magneton with leech seed+protect anyway, and while magnet pull might have uses, it pales in comparison (in this tier) to the power that analytic gives you. magneton that use magnet pull will use hp fire anyway, and if its not magnet pull it should NEVER run it over hp ground as you're just giving yourself counters. If you need ferroseed gone just use a lure like fire fang mawile, or a subsetup sweeper like klinklang

This comment completely disregards the set which Deej Dy has posted. If you run Leech Seed/Protect Ferroseed, you are absolute set up fodder for the set which he has posted. Once Magneton gets to +6 and has a sub up, the game is not smiling in your favor when you have to bring another mon in to try to break the sub without dying. That is, after you have sacrificed your Ferroseed to the Magnet Lord. And all you can do is sit there, because you believed that Protect/Leech Seed would save you. That is why Ferroseed does not always have room to run everything it "needs" on sets, and has instead opted to carry attacking moves like Knock Off/ HP Ground to combat new threats. As Deej mentioned, Knock Off does not even remedy the situation. But guess what...Hp Ground Ferroseed does. Before you call something "awful" you should check up on what its tailored to do. For stall, things like HP Ground Ferroseed are godsends to help combat the ever present threat of our magnetized overlord.

 

[Deej Dy]

That's great, i didn't say that magnet pull magneton was unviable, i said that hp ground ferroseed was. What ability you run on magneton depends on your team. However, nu teams don't run steel-types particularly often, and when they do, probopass and magneton run volt switch, and defensive mawile runs baton pass, so you setting up charge beams on them is an idealistic scenario. Lures are more effective at getting rid of steel-types as they switch in on them in the first place, and carry less opportunity cost; you're completely missing out on the nuclear analytic boosted attacks that make magneton broken.

Well, Timid Magneton outspeeds all of them (Probopass,Mawile, Modest Magneton) so they would have to die (or take at least 80%) before being able to swap out (Klingklang and Pawniard are fucked).

The difference between this and a lure is that there is no option to swap out for any steels, they have to take at least 80% or death. Most assume I would be Analytic anyway so I rarely find any double switches. I agree Analytic power is broken but I also think Magnet pull is just as devastating, as after a single charge beam increase I'm stronger than an analytic boost. The set is also viable outside of steel types, I find myself subbing on Fletchinder on their switch or anything else that is normally scared.

 

[Evan.]

This comment completely disregards the set which Deej Dy has posted. If you run Leech Seed/Protect Ferroseed, you are absolute set up fodder for the set which he has posted. Once Magneton gets to +6 and has a sub up, the game is not smiling in your favor when you have to bring another mon in to try to break the sub without dying. That is, after you have sacrificed your Ferroseed to the Magnet Lord. And all you can do is sit there, because you believed that Protect/Leech Seed would save you. That is why Ferroseed does not always have room to run everything it "needs" on sets, and has instead opted to carry attacking moves like Knock Off/ HP Ground to combat new threats. As Deej mentioned, Knock Off does not even remedy the situation. But guess what...Hp Ground Ferroseed does. Before you call something "awful" you should check up on what its tailored to do. For stall, things like HP Ground Ferroseed are godsends to help combat the ever present threat of our magnetized overlord.

No HP ground ferroseed is pretty awful. I think its definitely more efficient to do what QoL did in his RMT and run enough Atk EVs in order to 2hko magnetons sub. That way it can't really keep a free sub and once it does its a pretty easy revenge kill. HP ground has exactly 0 utility outside of hitting Sub Charge Beam magneton, whereas knock off is one of the best utility moves in the game. Its not like knock off is even that uncommon lol, its actually a good move on Ferroseed. You also seem to be overrating how common this set is. Id hazard to say that maybe 5% of magnetons are sub charge beam, if even that. Its much more common just to run evio magnet pull or choice magnet pull so that you can still abuse whats actually good about magneton, which is that it has the ability to both pivot and wallbreak at the same time.

 

[Winter's Howl]

No HP ground ferroseed is pretty awful. I think its definitely more efficient to do what QoL did in his RMT and run enough Atk EVs in order to 2hko magnetons sub. That way it can't really keep a free sub and once it does its a pretty easy revenge kill. HP ground has exactly 0 utility outside of hitting Sub Charge Beam magneton, whereas knock off is one of the best utility moves in the game. Its not like knock off is even that uncommon lol, its actually a good move on Ferroseed. You also seem to be overrating how common this set is. Id hazard to say that maybe 5% of magnetons are sub charge beam, if even that. Its much more common just to run evio magnet pull or choice magnet pull so that you can still abuse whats actually good about magneton, which is that it has the ability to both pivot and wallbreak at the same time.

Or you could keep maximum bulk, not have to invest in attack EVs, and take no chances with Sub Charge Beam Magneton. It's easy. And honestly...less people are running Knock Off Ferroseed with enough attack EVs to 2hko Mag's sub. In fact, I will comfortably say that it was most likely just QoL that was running those EVs. Maybe now that he has posted his RMT, some people will start running appropriate EVs for such a situation. Maybe. But for the most part, Magneton is free to come in and charge up to whatever number it wants. While keeping its sub. I wouldn't say that Sub Beam Magneton is that uncommon. It is obviously getting enough usage for people to take note of it, and for established players to try it out for themselves. Now two players in good standing of the NU community, Deej Dy and QueenofLuvdiscs, have posted that set. Honestly, I don't see how you are not seeing this set rise in usage when it keeps coming up. Funny you mention Evioite Magnet Pull. Since you are well versed to recognize that there is such thing as Magnet Pull Magnetons, you may also know that an increasing number of players are running Sub Eviolite Magneton w/ Magnet Pull. Substitute has started to appear more and more often on non choiced Magnetons, across RMTs and pastebinned teams alike. So if you are just running Protect Leech Seed like CherubAgent suggets, you are now again just fodder. If I am overselling certain Magneton sets, you are certainly overselling Ferroseed as a reliable check to the plethora of Magneton sets.

 

[Evan.]

Or you could keep maximum bulk, not have to invest in attack EVs, and take no chances with Sub Charge Beam Magneton. It's easy. And honestly...less people are running Knock Off Ferroseed with enough attack EVs to 2hko Mag's sub. In fact, I will comfortably say that it was most likely just QoL that was running those EVs. Maybe now that he has posted his RMT, some people will start running appropriate EVs for such a situation. Maybe. But for the most part, Magneton is free to come in and charge up to whatever number it wants. While keeping its sub. I wouldn't say that Sub Beam Magneton is that uncommon. It is obviously getting enough usage for people to take note of it, and for established players to try it out for themselves. Now two players in good standing of the NU community, Deej Dy and QueenofLuvdiscs, have posted that set. Honestly, I don't see how you are not seeing this set rise in usage when it keeps coming up. Funny you mention Evioite Magnet Pull. Since you are well versed to recognize that there is such thing as Magnet Pull Magnetons, you may also know that an increasing number of players are running Sub Eviolite Magneton w/ Magnet Pull. Substitute has started to appear more and more often on non choiced Magnetons, across RMTs and pastebinned teams alike. So if you are just running Protect Leech Seed like CherubAgent suggets, you are now again just fodder. If I am overselling certain Magneton sets, you are certainly overselling Ferroseed as a reliable check to the plethora of Magneton sets.

You really dont lose any bulk from moving 44 EVs to attack, especially with how fucking fat ferroseed is. Also it is super uncommon, you named 2 players that supposedly advocate for it, one of which I know hasnt even used it because I talk to him like every day and am on the same NUPL team as him. When you talk about sub Magneton, it seems kinda dumb because you 2HKO their sub with knock off as well as the fact that if you're running sub, you are dropping its pivoting ability which is one of the reasons why magneton is so good, which you seemed to have glossed over from my previous post. Finally, when did I ever call ferroseed a reliable magneton check? When did Cherub ever call ferroseed a reliable Magneton check? ill save you the hassle of going back to read, we didnt. All cherub was trying to say was that HP ground ferroseed is bad because trapper variants beat you anyways, and you can beat any other variants that arent specifically designed to trap Ferro. Anyways now that i think about it, it is at least a check, albiet an unreliable one, because it can take moves from all choiced sets and the majority of eviolite sets, because most of them run Volt Switch for the reason i stated in my previous post: What makes magneton so good is that it has the abilty to pivot and wallbreak at the same time with analytic boosted VS's and Flash Cannons. Magnet Pull variants have their specific niches, but the majority of magnetons should be running Analytic to take advantage of why its actually good.

 

[mertyville]

The goal should be having Ferroseed to not to end up as set up forder for Magneton and not to beat it. One might as well play Shed Shell or not use Ferroseed at all.

 

[HJAD]

hate to but in, but actually, vs a specs set ferroseed does actually beat magneton 1v1 (if we say they both at full and magneton doesnt go roll crazy)

0 SpA Ferroseed Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 84-100 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 86-102 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO you can run a bit of sp def to prevent that chance

0 SpA Ferroseed Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 56-68 (23.1 - 28%) -- 55% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 57-68 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

it even beats Eviolite sets.
this is considering that Magneton isn't running HP Fire which is the worse hidden power to run (unless you really hate seed), because ground hits Lanturn, stunfisk, Electivire and common steel types like Mawile, Probopass and other Magneton for S.E damage whereas HP fire only hits seed. HP Grass can be used to hit v.switch absorbers like quaggy I guess.

imo, HP ground seed isn't a bad "innovation". All you lose is a moveslot (albeit that moveslot could be used better than one Mon) and I think its simply someone just adapting to the meta ATM.

If anything, it displays how centralizing Magneton is in the tier that people can actually run this set and get away with it. (Because at the end of the day, magnet still done his job, weakened seed, it just had to sacrifice a lot more)

And yah, Analytic > Magnet Pull > Sturdy unless you happen to be weak to other magneton in which case you would run scarf HP ground to get rid of it.

 

[ryan]

I am a part of the Department of Good Pokemon Sets™ and can confirm that Analytic Volt Switch Magneton is a Good Set™.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Winter's Howl, are you familiar with the concept of "opportunity cost"?

ferroseed, as a defensive pokemon, cannot afford to run hidden power ground and remain effective in the long term, and that's a fact. let me break it down very clearly so that you can understand:

1) magneton, if analytic, is going to volt switch on your ferroseed. it is not going to stay in and try and thunderbolt you when a good player will leech seed+protect stall him. you are not going to hit it with hidden power ground
2) magneton, if magnet pull, is going to hp fire your ferroseed. you are going to die without dealing damage. if it switches in on a hidden power ground, it takes your ~37% and kills you anyway
3) even if hidden power ground magically did 100% damage to magneton, it is still a terrible choice. you hit NOTHING else with it, you can't even break a klinklang substitute. in the long run, over a large amount of games, you will wish that you had the moveslot to disrupt the opponent's team with knock off, thunder wave, heal more damage/scout with protect, etc.
4) the only scenario where hp ground is useful is if the oppoent is running a no-bulk sub charge beam set lacking hidden power fire. this is so incredibly specific, and so rare, because the vast majority of magnetons are using the all-out attacker sets that will get chip damage on your ferroseed with volt switch and going into their mon that takes advantage of it or (rarely) be packing hp fire and slaughter you anyway

regardless i'm done now. this isn't even an argument

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Alright, after reading this shitstorm of a thread, I feel like it's time to step in.

HP Ground Ferroseed is ass. Complete ass. The reasoning for it is also ass because if Magneton is using Magnet Pull, it's mostly gonna have HP Fire to just kill it, or Sub Charge Beam (DOES NOT EXIST - hollywood) should have HP Grass to OHKO Quagsire after the boosts, so you beat pretty much all variants of Magneton w/o having to use a shitty move. In my RMT, I use Knock Off on Ferroseed with some attack invest to 2HKO it's subs, but it also breaks Klinklang's Subs unless they are running near max HP, which they shouldn't do. Even if it is a 2HKO, you just spam the shit outta Knock Off, forcing them to either Sub and weaken themselves or you Leech Seed it and you beat it 1v1, like most sets that Magneton run.
Knock Off also provides a much greater utility option over HP Ground in 9/10 games I'd say. Like, what happens if they don't have a Magneton? You've now got a Ferroseed that can't do shit to anything.

The fact that we are even discussing this as an option makes it seem Magneton is near unstoppable and we're forced to run hp ground on everything. It's just an extremely good mon in the current meta.

 

[Quite Quiet]

I understand that you all are extremely passionate about defensing (or argue against) your HP Ground Ferroseeds and whatnot, but does it really have to take up an entire page of discussion when it is, at most, a situational move that barely validate its effective? While I acknowledge that Magneton is extremely effective, it's not the god HP Ground Ferroseed makes it out to be.

Can we just drop it and talk about something else? :l

 

[Cherub Agent]

What are people's thoughts on torterra at the moment? When i decided to build new teams with drops, i just kept coming back to it because of how damn reliable it is at the moment. using a simple max hp max defense impish spread (probably something better out there but this has been doing fine). the massive physical bulk, combined with reliable recovery, powerful stabs, and stealth rock mean that you have a really sturdy blanket check to a lot of pokemon out there, including EdgeQuake Archeops, Tauros, psyshock pixies, garbodor, kangaskhan, klinklang, mawile, kabutops, rhydon, barb/costa, hariyama, quagsire and the list goes on and on down the VRs.

adding onto that is that it beats nigh anything that gives fletchinder trouble, and the volt switch immunity already cautions magneton against using volt switch. shell armour is a cute ability on something you don't want to take a stray critical hit, but overgrow has its uses too. the power behind wood hammer means that stuff like subcm uxie can never set up on you, as you far outdamage it and can just recover back health lost, making torterra a surprisingly reliable hard counter. of course, it does have its issues, but i've found that pairing it up with lanturn (i use ProTox) almost utterly nullifies the primary danger from magneton to a team, and lanturn takes on stuff like fire- and flying-types too. stuff like ludicolo are annoying, but that's what fletchinder is for, as stated previously, it immensely benefits from torterra's presence.

 

[Winter's Howl]

Instead of further inflaming this argument, let's do the responsible thing and change the subject, eh? Torterra is surprisingly useful in a number of situations. With Quagsire staying and Magneton falling, Torterra has found some new friends. Not only are these two eaten alive by Torterra (Magneton actually does over half minimum to Torterra with Specs, but Torterra wins v Eviolite straight up), they also find themselves as common partners of the turtle god. Torterra has great bulk that can shine with HP investment alone. It also hits really hard with two powerful STAB options, Wood Hammer (Base 120) and Earthquake (Base 100). Another great thing about this giant turtle is its access to a number of utility moves. It gets Stealth Rock, Synthesis (reliable recovery), and Roar (for phazing) among other options. The moves listed here are common on its tank set, which is where my experience with it comes from. If you want to go more offensive, it gets both Swords Dance and Rock Polish for a cool double dance sweeper. Below are some calcs which have been brought to my attention:

252+ SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As mentioned earlier, Choice Specs does beat Torterra looking to switch in. But if you feel so inclined, specially defensive investment remedies this to an extent.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Torterra: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Another point worth mentioning is that Torterra loves the Magneton checks that have surfaced, such as Lanturn and Stunfisk.

0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 79-94 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 420-494 (104.7 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Just hope you don't get burnt!)

Really solid mon overall, pleasantly surprised with how it is coming along in the meta.

 

[Evan.]

Instead of further inflaming this argument, let's do the responsible thing and change the subject, eh? Torterra is surprisingly useful in a number of situations. With Quagsire staying and Magneton falling, Torterra has found some new friends. Not only are these two eaten alive by Torterra (Magneton actually does over half minimum to Torterra with Specs, but Torterra wins v Eviolite straight up), they also find themselves as common partners of the turtle god. Torterra has great bulk that can shine with HP investment alone. It also hits really hard with two powerful STAB options, Wood Hammer (Base 120) and Earthquake (Base 100). Another great thing about this giant turtle is its access to a number of utility moves. It gets Stealth Rock, Synthesis (reliable recovery), and Roar (for phazing) among other options. The moves listed here are common on its tank set, which is where my experience with it comes from. If you want to go more offensive, it gets both Swords Dance and Rock Polish for a cool double dance sweeper. Below are some calcs which have been brought to my attention:

252+ SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As mentioned earlier, Choice Specs does beat Torterra looking to switch in. But if you feel so inclined, specially defensive investment remedies this to an extent.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Torterra: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Another point worth mentioning is that Torterra loves the Magneton checks that have surfaced, such as Lanturn and Stunfisk.

0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 79-94 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 420-494 (104.7 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Just hope you don't get burnt!)

Really solid mon overall, pleasantly surprised with how it is coming along in the meta.

I think torterra is good.

 

[Adaire]

Moving on from torterra...

The upcoming new user Iplaytennislol and his gang
Rapidash is a monster right now, I've been using it a lot against friends and it's just so under rated, I've enjoyed using niche sets like power herb solar beam which just kills everything that normally switches in, it can run a variety of sets and is in my opinion a much better physical fire type than flareon since speed is such key element of NU. It's movepool is really diverse and able to hit a lot of mons in the tier effectively. It can use megahorn, flareblitz, drill run, wild charge and solar beam if your a real man. It can also run morning sun as a good recovery move. Flash fire is also a nice ability as well

Rapidash just has a excellent match up against the tier as well, it's diverse movepool and good speed makes it a really over looked threat, not to mention how much it benefits without a fire type counter everywhere. Seriously though, you guys should try rapidash, really cool offensive mon that is a nice check to a couple of the drops and benefits from toad leaving. Also solar beam is sexy af to kill quagsire's and rhydons that like to switch in.

 

[CanadianWifier]

I've always loved Rapidash. Of only it got Swords Dance, man..

As a nice alternative to Flareon as an actually fast offensive physical Fire-type, I could see Rapidash having a cool niche. Flash fire is also cute :)

 

[Raseri]

i tried rapidash not to long ago and I wasn't disappointed with the results, it isn't outstanding, but as a fast fire type, it has a bunch of really cool coverage options like Megahorn and Drill Run, as well as Baton Pass to help scout early game. Of course the biggest problem with Rapidash is the same as it was in BW2, it just dies so quickly. Flare Blitz recoil + hazards + bad defenses can make it a difficult Pokemon to use

 

[Froggyboy]

THE GOD IS HERE
Here we look at the one and only counter to Magneton. You know Mag has HP Ground for Electivire, Lanturn and Stunfisk, as well as other Magnetons right? Well guess what doesn't give a fuck about HP Ground?
THIS BITCH RIGHT HERE

Who cares about HP Ground when you have LEVITATE????

Magneton Hidden Power Ground vs. Levitate Eelektrik: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Fucking delicious.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 90-107 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!

"But Eelektrik is an Electric type, it can't hit Magneton!"
LOOK AT THIS.
164+ SpA Eelektrik Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 248-292 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ELIMINATED.

"But Eelektrik only beats Magneton!!!!!"
BITCH LOOK AT THIS.
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 84-100 (25.2 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 240-283 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 140-165 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 136-161 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 126-148 (37.8 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 133-156 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 122-144 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
LOOKS LIKE IT BEATS A LOT

Yes I know, you are all in shock right now, but believe it, it is true. You are witnessing the bulk of a god. Go and get one today and make all the Magnetons quiver in fear as they see you in team preview!


(Please don't take this seriously and yell at me)​

 

[boltsandbombers]

THE GOD IS HERE
Here we look at the one and only counter to Magneton. You know Mag has HP Ground for Electivire, Lanturn and Stunfisk, as well as other Magnetons right? Well guess what doesn't give a fuck about HP Ground?
THIS BITCH RIGHT HERE

Who cares about HP Ground when you have LEVITATE????

Magneton Hidden Power Ground vs. Levitate Eelektrik: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Fucking delicious.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 90-107 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!

"But Eelektrik is an Electric type, it can't hit Magneton!"
LOOK AT THIS.
164+ SpA Eelektrik Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 248-292 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ELIMINATED.

"But Eelektrik only beats Magneton!!!!!"
BITCH LOOK AT THIS.
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 84-100 (25.2 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 240-283 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 140-165 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 136-161 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 126-148 (37.8 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Eelektrik: 133-156 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Eelektrik: 122-144 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
LOOKS LIKE IT BEATS A LOT

Yes I know, you are all in shock right now, but believe it, it is true. You are witnessing the bulk of a god. Go and get one today and make all the Magnetons quiver in fear as they see you in team preview!


(Please don't take this seriously and yell at me)​

Yes, Magneton cannot touch it at all with any of its moves, but there is one thing you're overlooking. It just clicks Volt Switch as you go to eel and goes to some wallbreaker or bulky setup sweeper (ie crodino, cm mush, etc) w/e that threatens it out. The reason why Stunfisk, Lanturn, and SpDef Torterra are arguably the best answers to Magneton are because they prevent it from gaining momentum with Volt Switch and can threaten it out with a STAB move or a Scald in Lanturns case. Hell, stupid stuff like Specially Defensive Emolga with HP Ground has been theorized here and there, and that's a problem. I really don't see the value of Eelektrik when it is only a soft check and very specifed answer to Magneton, and you're much better off with other Pokemon to check the other threats that Eelektrik supposedly covers. Maybe its worth something, but calling this the ultimate Magneton stop (you didn't directly say that but it was implied) is far from true. This concept applies to Heliolisk as well, as the main issue with it was that it hit hard and kept up offensive momentum with STAB Volt Switch; obviously its much faster than Magneton, but the idea is still there.
If you have any replays showing Eelektrik doing something useful, I'd be interested to see, because we can all just throw out some calcs and call something good, but it has to actually work in practice.

 

[Steakburgers]

Can anyone make a case for specially defensive flareon at the moment? It can take hits from mag, is a solid fire spam stopper, and even though its wishes wont bring you to full health, it can at least do a small bit
I'm asking this, cause im staring real intently at it, and im waiting for something to poof and tell me that flareon is indeed viable

 

[Aasgier]

Flareon has always been viable. It hardwalls Pyroar and basically any other special attacker that can't hit it with an SE STAB move on the special side.
Earthquakes from mixed attackers like Magmortar and Electivire are a problem for Flareon though, but Magneton should not be a problem for it (not to mention Flare Blitz OHKO's it).

 

[Punchshroom]

Can anyone make a case for specially defensive flareon at the moment? It can take hits from mag, is a solid fire spam stopper, and even though its wishes wont bring you to full health, it can at least do a small bit
I'm asking this, cause im staring real intently at it, and im waiting for something to poof and tell me that flareon is indeed viable

SpD Flareon is kind of hard to justify really, because it only really handles special Grass-types and Fire-types (and speedy Ghost-types, I guess), but mainly because it doesn't really handle the main Fire-types (Magmortar, Pyroar, Ninetales) very well at all.
- Given the ubiquity of Lanturn these days, you can expect Magmortar to carry Earthquake, which easily 2HKOes Flareon.
- Specs Pyroar cleanly 3HKOes Flareon with Hyper Voice, 2HKOing if SR is in play. Life Orb Pyroar has to work a bit harder to get the KO, but if it carries Taunt Flareon is again put on the backfoot.
- Ninetales is rare these days, but if it does show up, Psyshock after a Nasty Plot boost 2HKOes as well.
The bigger issue is that Flareon doesn't retaliate well against the Fire-types in a 1v1 matchup should it not get the Flash Fire boost, and that is if it has Flare Blitz to actually hurt them (and also hurt itself); if it is relying on weakass Lava Plume then it still won't get the upper hand. Oh, and it needs Toxic to even do something about Ninetales.

Flareon doesn't wall too much very well, but it is relatively easy to respond to in return. Teams usually carry things like Lanturn, Carracosta, Rhydon, Kabutops, etc. that can easily switch into it, plus almost every relevant physical attacker is capable of threatening Flareon's poor physical bulk. Normally special walls being susceptible to physical attackers is nothing special, but herein lies two of Flareon's most exploitable weaknesses: its reliance on WishTect for recovery, and its hazard weakness. Reliance on WishTect means that in order for Flareon to remain healthy enough to continue checking threats, it has to sit its ass down for two turns to WishTect, as opposed to a quickheal like Recover or Synthesis or something. This is basically a free invite for physical attackers to do whatever they want, like set up or launch a strong attack off on your team for free. Sure, you could pass the Wish to a teammate to counter the opposing Pokemon, but Flareon does not get healed as a result. Regenerator Audino bypasses the issue completely as it heals itself on the switch, restoring itself and its teammate. Even the only other notable WishPasser in the tier, Leafeon, can drop Protect and use Wish + Synthesis, the former primarily being used to heal teammates while Synthesis lets Leafeon effectively heal itself without exposing itself too much for opponents. Flareon's hazard weakness only further compounds its need to heal. To resolve these issues, Flareon's teammates must have anti-hazard control, have another Wish user that can pass to Flareon, and, oh, have reliable switch-ins to pretty much every relevant physical attacker in the tier. Yes, that's a hell of a lot to ask for when it comes to supporting Flareon, but that's the reality of the matter and why Flareon is not very favored as a specially defensive variant.

Also Aasgier, Flareon will not be a problem for Magneton either; Magnets outspeeds and does a chunk with Specs Volt Switch which 2HKOes offensive variants and 3HKO SpD variants, the latter of which won't even get the chance to use Wish as it is inevitably forced out by a physical attacker.

 

[DennisEG]

Ok playing a lil bit the new metagame i saw a couple unseen mons like stunfisk now but tbh magneton hp grass analityc specs does 2hko that spdef beast either way also lanturn so magneton straight shit on resistentences/immunitys with specs, this monster need to go.

Middle Talon (fletch) is a huge threat too some couple mons can stop him, like lanturn, stunfisk, barbaracle , and garbodor to extend but i saw this monster centralizing the meta game which is unhealthy.

Pinsir is the great add to the nu metagame LO moldbreaker set is so gud is not even overpower it just a great mon to NU, here some calcs of the most common switch ins to pinsir
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 177-208 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 169-200 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 159-187 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom: 234-278 (76.9 - 91.4%)
So u gotta revenge this monster.

Last but no least is my fren Kabu, the best spinner in the tier providing a support an offensive presence at the same time, and now that Toad is gone this is a major threat now, so i think this monster is gonna leave the nu tier too the only things that stop this monster is tangela maybe

 

[Sir Azelf]

Ok playing a lil bit the new metagame i saw a couple unseen mons like stunfisk now but tbh magneton hp grass analityc specs does 2hko that spdef beast either way also lanturn so magneton straight shit on resistentences/immunitys with specs, this monster need to go.

I agree with this.

Magneton is basically like Landorus-I in OU. It picks its own counters, this isnt healthy for the metagame imo and this has already been highlighted in this thread with shit like Sub Charge setting up on Ferroseed or being trapped with HP Fire, specs nuking every switch in it has even with resisted moves etc.

Nothing properly or consistently checks/counters it and the things that temporarily check it (Uhhhhh what even resembles a Magneton counter, apart from Earthquake Munchlax?) pretty much suck due to lack of recovery like Lanturn so are easy to wear down, just flat out blow like HP Ground Ferroseed or just lose to Hidden Power. I actually think people resorting to HP Ground Ferroseed, which serves no other purpose other than to beat/counter Magneton, sums up just how broken this pokemon is.

I think when something forces you to revenge kill it to deal with it, it needs to go. It also forces team match ups and hands the Magneton player momentum. All you have to do is guess correctly ONCE to weaken your temporary check and then you're free to spam specs Analytic Volt Switch every single time basically and it forces the question of "What do i switch to? My weakened Electric Immunity? or another pokemon and risk losing it or losing momentum?" good luck guessing right every time, you will probabaly lose more than one pokemon via this.

Lastly its resistances and immunities grant it alot of switch in opportunities.

 

[Finchinator]

I think that NU has one pokemon worth suspecting at the moment. Upon dropping from RU, a lot of people believed that Magneton would take the tier by storm and, to be honest, I think it has.

Magneton is ridiculously good - steel/electric typing, three viable abilities, multiple sets (although they all use the same moves, so it's more like multiple items), lots of power, solid physical bulk with Eviolite, and plenty of power behind its special attacks.

Now I know that people are thinking 'oh here goes Finch, listing all the positive attributes of Magneton to bolster his impending pro-ban argument' and I understand why some people jump to that conclusion, but I'm not totally sold on it being broken or unhealthy for the tier - I just believe that Magneton is worthy of a suspect and here is why:

With Magneton's introduction into the tier, a lot of people immediately resorted to using Stunfisk or Lanturn. Although part of this shift was due to Seismitoad's departure from the tier, the introduction of Magneton and, to a lesser extent, Fletch were primarily responsible for this trend.

Sure, both of these pokemon can laugh at any STAB attack Magneton throws at them, but it does run HP Ground very often and with analytic (I know prediction is a two-way street and predicting the switch-in isn't too consistent an argument, but it's usually obvious as they're reliable switch-ins generally), HP Ground can 2HKO offensive Lanturn (specs or agility) and at least put a dent into bulkier variants before likely being forced out. Now I know that these two are still easily considered checks, but wearing Lanturn or Stunfisk out isn't too challenging in this metagame, so it is fair to say that there really isn't any 'super reliable consistent' counter to Magneton outside of the uncommon (and imo lackluster) Restalk Lanturn. Also, I prefer analytic over either other ability as it makes Magneton insanely powerful when hitting a switch-in or moving second, even if it is Eviolite instead of Specs, but Magnet Pull is viable, although situational, for trapping Ferroseed (need to be HP Fire or SubChargeBeam) or Klinklang, and Sturdy is viable, too (just ask Omfuga).

Going back onto the main line of thought, outside of the two aforementioned answers to Magneton, in Lanturn and Stunfisk, there aren't many other checks/counters. Electevire and Raichu both absorb any electric move and resist Flash Cannon, sure, but they don't like Specs or Analytic Flash Cannon while HP Ground will do a ton. I would classify them both as offensive checks, but Elect is the only one of the two that is decent currently and even then, I don't see to many people using it. AV users like Hariyama and Magmortar can defensively check it through taking 2-3 hits before being low or dying, but it can easily volt on the switch in or, if facing Hariyama, volt into a check for some more damage (not to mention neither appreciates specs or even Eviolite attacks when boosted by analytic when they are switching in as neither resists electric, so they get worn out easily and cost their own team momentum). Honorable mention goes to SDef Zweilous for being a specially defensive behemoth, but it does nothing in return while still taking enough to be threatened by Flash Cannon (so it's not a check at all), and Ferroseed, which is easy volt switch bait for any set, but can defensively wall any non-HP Fire variant (although Magnet Pull HP Fire gives it the D, so be careful) - too bad it gives up all momentum and does very little in return.

Overall, Magneton has a lack of checks/counters that makes me feel the need to run one of a select few things in teambuilding which restricts me quite a bit while it can use Specs, Eviolite, or Scarf with Analytic, Magnet Pull, or Sturdy to fulfill various roles and function as you'd like it to. I think a suspect is appropriate.

PS: typing on phone, so sorry for typos or missing anything :x but the overall point is in the last paragraph basically

Edit: if somebody already brought this up and this sounded like I was introducing the idea as a whole (didn't intend to make it seem this way, but my wording wasn't great and Disjunction's first paragraph gives me that impression) then sorry for stealing your thunder I guess and I just agree with them because of the reasons I stated. Haven't followed the discussion a ton in recent days because I'm lazy so probably missed something :x