np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

[aim]

Hi guys, the tiering OU Council has decided to test Landorus-Incarnate this round.

Landorus has been a dominating force throughout the 6th Generation, both in XY OU earlier and ORAS OU currently. With its impressive base 125/115 offensive stats, backed up by an above average 101 base Speed, decent defenses (for an offensive Pokémon), a wide physical and special movepool and an excellent ability in Sheer Force, Landorus-I represents an extremely versatile Pokémon, that, in the hands of an expert player, becomes incredibly hard to stop. Landorus-I can fulfll several roles into any given team. It can act as a mixed wall-breaker, as a lure for specific Pokémon, and as a late game sweeper with access to stat boosting moves such as Rock Polish and Calm Mind. While the current OU metagame is ruled by incredibly powerful Mega-Evolutions (such as Lopunny and Metagross), according to many players, there are a few traits that make Landorus-I stand out:

• its absurdly powerful special attacks (Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic), which get boosted by Sheer Force and get a recoil-free Life Orb boost;

• its unpredictability, which allows it to use mixed sets to get get rid of many of its common switch ins (see Knock Off for the Lati twins and Rock Slide for Tornadus-T and Zapdos);

• the lack of true counters, with the exception of Mega-Latias;

• the fact that, despite all of the above, Landorus-I doesn't occupy the Mega slot.

These characteristics make Landorus-Incarnate quite a restricting threat in terms of team building.

That being said, Landorus-I is by no means unstoppable. Its Speed, while good, makes Pokémon such as the Lati twins, Gengar, and Tornadus-Therian capable of outspeeding and revenge killing it with relative ease. It's weak to common priority moves such as Aqua Jet and Ice Shard. Furthermore, it can't run all of its coverage moves on the same set, meaning that with a some smart switching, it's possible to scout its set and counter it accordingly.

At the end of this Suspect Test, qualified voters will be asked to decide the fate of this extremely controversial Pokémon.

For this round we're gonna have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
1) Laddering: you'll need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 or more on the OU Suspect Test ladder (in which Landorus-I will be banned), that will be implemented very soon. This round there is also a GAME LIMIT OF 85 GAMES . Please note that this rating may not be the final required rating, and we reserve the right to increase or decrease the requirements based upon the first week of laddering;
2) Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.

The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on Sunday May 31. The vote will take place in roughly one week after that.

Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact McMeghan, aim, AM, Tesung or M Dragon through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test

Good luck and have fun laddering!

Rules for posting in this thread:
1) no one liners nor uninformed posts;
2) no discussion on other potential suspects;
3) no discussion on the Suspect process;
4) you're required to make respectful posts;
5) you're required to read this thread before posting.

Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:

GXE N
100 30
90 41
85 52
80 70
75 112
70 324

Credit for the illustration goes to anundeadboy.

 

[Alfalfa]

Landorus-I is one of those Pokemon that, while unbearable when it is good in the metagame, finds the metagame adapting to it. Think about when Mega Cross / Mega Garde / and Mega Medicham were everywhere after Aegislash was banned, and everybody wanted those suspected until the metagame adapted to it (the same applied to Zard X and Thundurus). However, Lando-I is better than it was in early XY, since it is much freer to use coverage than it could ever before. That being said, I do not deny the worth of this suspect, as Lando-I can be annoying to handle, especially since it can easily tinker its coverage to beat whatever it wants.

 

[UltiMario]

We all saw this coming, but at the same time, I'm not currently seeing it getting banned. Lando-I is like a demon guarding the gates of hell. He's bad enough as is, but with him gone, the gates fling wide open and the whole wrath of hell is unleashed.

We'll see if near-unbreakable balance cores are more of a deterrent than Lando-i's raw power while on the ladder, though.

 

[michaeloche]

inb4 "about time" or similar spam

I think Landorus should go. He can beat pretty much whatever he wants to with the right moves and can even 2hko many of his "counters" bar Cresselia, which is otherwise rather meh (edit: Mega Latias too, but he even has moves for her). Sheer Force+LO is extremely powerful, CM destroys balance/stall, RP beats offense, and regardless, more often than not, he can take out a good chunk of your team before you can kill him. Ban the genie.

np song should have been "Friend Like Me" smh

 

[Freeroamer]

Been looking forward to this test for a long time, glad it's finally here. I think this ladder should prove to be an interesting one, with one of the main threats to every playstyle gone there might be more freedom in teambuilding now that you don't have to prep your squads to be able to deal with a +2 Lando. Look forward to laddering!

 

[napty]

Lando-I is almost the only reason why I use sp.def Zapdos... I always have to run a dedicated ""counter"" to it and it's annoying, especially considering that my playstyle of choice is Balance.

For me it's gonna be a straight BAN!

 

[AKA]

Glad to see Landorus-I finally get its suspect this generation. Landorus has so much versatility that lets it handle a variety of different teams and I think this unpredictability is unhealthy in the metagame. There's not much that can switch into a Sheer Force + LO Earth Power/coverage.

I know a lot of people cite Cresselia and Mega Latias as counters but if those threats ever rise to popularity, Landorus has plenty of tools to adapt ala gen 5 U-Turn Landorus-I coupled with Scarf Tyranitar.

Regardless, this suspect test is gonna be interesting.

Edit: I also think Focus Blast is worth discussing. There seems to be a negative stigma discussing accuracy after the Hurricane missing nonsense in the viability thread but I sincerely believe that the unreliability of Focus Blast hurts Landorus-I quite a bit. I'm going to quote something from the generation 5 suspect test thread that I believe is reasonably relevant:

No one is discussing Focus Blast. The odds of landing 2 FB's in a row are 49%. This is just not reliable. I am not saying this ruins the pokemon. But it means that relying on it to sweep is really dangerous. Maybe worse in my opinion even if you predict rotom-W (or something else you FB against) coming in 30% of the time you get no benefeits. Also in order to 2HKO some counters it needs to use earth power and this gives oppurtunities for ground immunes who beat Lando 1v1 a chance to come in. Leading with hp ice is maybe worse because it does little dmg if they are not weak to it and costs you LO. Also this thing only has normal has 115 special atk when it uses HP Ice and this shows.

Edit 2:

Both Cresselia and Mega Latias are capable of adapting to Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Reflect is a solid option on Cresselia to half the damage of Pursuit when it switches out, and Reflect Type on Mega Latias allows it to instill Tyranitar's typing on itself so it can take substantially less damage from Pursuit as well.

Scarf Tyranitar outspeeds Mega Latias so it would still get a sizeable amount of damage off depending on the Tyranitar's read on his opponent. Regardless, that's a very fair point. That being said though, Cresselia and Mega Latias adapting to a Tyranitar (that is paired with a Landorus-I) does not get around the fact that Landorus-I is able to adapt to its "counters".

 

[Alfalfa]

Lando-I is almost the only reason why I use sp.def Zapdos... I always have to have a dedicated ""counter"" to it and it's annoying, especially considering that my playstyle of choice is Balance.

For me it's gonna be a straight BAN!

The point of the suspect test is to consider whether or not it is broken through experimenting on the ladder, not making a decision right at the beginning of the suspect. The point of a suspect test is to remain open-minded. While this seems hypocritical because I was against Aegislash being unbanned from the get-go, I went on the suspect ladder only to see if my pre-concerns with Aegislash held any weight.

EDIT:

I know a lot of people cite Cresselia and Mega Latias as counters but if those threats ever rise to popularity, Landorus has plenty of tools to adapt ala gen 5 U-Turn Landorus-I coupled with Scarf Tyranitar.

Both Cresselia and Mega Latias are capable of adapting to Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Reflect is a solid option on Cresselia to half the damage of Pursuit when it switches out, and Reflect Type on Mega Latias allows it to instill Tyranitar's typing on itself so it can take substantially less damage from Pursuit as well.

 

[AM]

Holy jesus, already deleted like 5 one liners. If you're gonna waste time writing an uninformed one liner don't bother posting at all. If you can't manage to formulate three adequate sentences minimum then you're more than likely not qualified to be posting anything here. Read the OP it's not that difficult yet people have still already failed to follow the guidelines.

 

[Ox the Fox]

I actually find landorus-I to be an extremely broken and meta defining pokemon. It has the ability to constantly evolve around the meta giving it no counters except for mega latias and cresselia. It's only counters are destroyed by tyranitar so with very little team support it can completely devastate these teams. In case they aren't using a mega latias or cresselia and they think they're safe with a tornadus-therian, they're about to be destroyed by a rock slide. It's able to destroy offense once they get a rock polish up, can destroy balance with its coverage, and destroys stall with calm mind or knock off focus blast. Some people say that a balance breaker like this is healthy for the metaame and promotes a more offensive metagame, but it actually breaks it by forcing a lot of balance builds to look the same. I'm going to vote ban on landorus-i as I feel it's a very centralizing pokemon which can constantly adapt to the metagame.

 

[M0nkey]

I don't know about this one. Lando-I does check steels and fairies, but on the other hand about everything fears this monster and is fast enough to set up on a large portion of mons in the OU metagame (since Weavile and Mamo aren't that common).

 

[Venoxio]

Not really sure what to think.....Lando-I is a terrifying mon, but the metagame has developed ways to check it. If running HP Ice, Thundurus-I, Zapdos, and Mega Manectric can check it. Bulky Water types are a problem too. (mostly Rotom-W.) I guess it should go, but it could make a lot of other mons broken imo.

EDIT: Take this thing out of OU. But like I said before, it could make a lot of other things broken.

 

[BKC]

Personally I can't wait for all the moronic "balance will be unbreakable without Lando, no ban pls" posts. I would be really happy if I didn't have to read those!!!

Even if being worried about balance being too strong was a valid argument, it is more than beatable if your team and playing is good... people just want this one-mon army against defensive teams because they don't want to strain themselves too hard by actually thinking to beat them. Not to mention there are terrors like Manaphy and fucking Mega Gardevoir that no remotely defensive team wants anything to do with.

I'm very excited for Landorus to leave; it is stupidly strong and has a million different ways it can screw its checks over - its one counter, Mega Latias, can't hold Leftovers and is Pursuit bait. I guess it has two counters (wow!) if you think Cresselia isn't utterly worthless.

Lando's ban will make an already good metagame even better, let's make it happen.

 

[fyourblog]

I think this is a very obvious no ban. I won't make sweeping assumptions until I get reqs and try out the new meta on the suspect ladder but I believe Lando-I can be seen as strictly the be seen as the best late game sweeper, a complete S-rank pokemon--but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be banned. It has plenty of counters. Both Latis, Cress, Chansey, AV Tornadus-T, Skarm, SP Def Zapdos. And there are plenty of other ways to maneuver around him.

To the people that are arguing that half the counters I listed aren't counters because Lando-I carries knock off. The usage of that move in this meta is
| Knock Off 12.476% |.

This is not a viable argument. You don't team build for the 12% of Landos. You're teambuilding for the rock polish Lando's that are strongly cemented in the meta. Lando's that are carrying Knock Off will be countered and checked by many other pokes it can normally beat.

 

[Analytic]

I'm so glad this is happening. Let me explain why.

Landorus-I possesses an excellent ability in Sheer Force and has access to such great coverage moves in Sludge Wave, Psychic and Focus Blast as well as great set up moves in Rock Polish and Calm Mind, allowing it function well against most play styles(RP for HO/Balance, CM for Balance/Defensive) allowing you to tailor its moveset according to your team's needs.

 

[Raiza]

I'm really looking forward to this suspect, because Landorus-I is one of the parts that I hate the most in the OU metagame noways, therefore will try to get reqs as soon as possible, now I will just express some starting thoughts before i start laddering(these may be not that accurate as I'm not an avid OU player so forgive me). In my opinion Landorus-I at the moment is borderline broken, because of it's various coverage choices in Sludge Wave, Psychic, Knock Off, Rock Slide, which is getting popular lately, Focus Blast and I can go on, which along with Sheer Power and even a little of team support make it one of the most threatening wallbreakers and sweepers in the tier, because yeah...it can also run other sets apart from the classic sr+ 3 atks, such as the Rock Polish and Calm Mind, and the problem is that everyone of them is extremely good, that makes Landorus-I also unpredictable in most games and have really few checks or answers, so basically anytime Lando gets brought in something is dying or gets worn down. A few checks n coutners that got mentioned like cress and mega lati can also be handled by even a littel team support, nominating Tyranitar. I'm prone to a ban at the moment but I could change idea while laddering, as lately I didn't get involved in OU stuff much.

 

[bb skarm]

Easily the biggest problem with Landorus-I is that the second it comes onto the field (given it's been smartly brought in) the momentum shifts completely into the user of Landorus-I. This is because that Landorus-I's middle name is no switch-ins; once it's brought in, the majority of the time, something's going to faint. Every set, 99% of the time, is going to be effective, regardless of playstyle. Rock Polish still has the wallbreaking prowess (in fact, even more of it because of it usually running Modest) and just sharts on offense, while Calm Mind is monstrous against bulkier and slower builds. Many people like to blame Landorus-I for being broken because it simply is too powerful but I'd like to just give a lot of emphasis to the fact that it's damn presence in itself is enough to pressure the opponent.

 

[Sabella]

alright sorry about not having three sentances. I expect to see more balanced teams now without lando i on the suspect ladder. With all its wall breaking power and coverage moves this will be really interesting to see what people may use. lando i was such a threat to so many teams hopefully this will help balance things out.

 

[Clone]

If I decide to get reqs Im banning this thing and encourage everyone else to do the same. Landorus, as it stands now, is incredibly broken in that it has no "true" counters bar a few niche mons or Mega Lati. Its power is impeccable, and it has all the coverage moves it needs to beat whatever it wants. SpDef Talon, Zapdos, or Mandi giving you trouble? Bop em real quick with a Rock Slide and now theyre gone. Want to take out Gliscor and opposing Landorus much faster? HP Ice is here to save the day. Hell, even Knock Off has use in tandem with Focus Blast to take out the likes of Lati@s (non Mega), Slowking, and Chansey. This thing is a huge strain on teambuilding and not having around would be awesome. Landorus, in all honesty, like Greninja in that it has insanely powerful coverage moves that can be tailored to fit the team's needs. It may not have the speed of Ninja, but it more than makes up for it in its power output and the ability to invalidate offense with a well-times Rock Polish.

#Bandorus2015

 

[Analytic]

I think this is a very obvious no ban. I won't make sweeping assumptions until I get reqs and try out the new meta on the suspect ladder but I believe Lando-I can be seen as strictly the be seen as the best late game sweeper, a complete S-rank pokemon--but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be banned. It has plenty of counters. Both Latis, Cress, Chansey, Bliss, AV Tornadus-T, Skarm, SP Def, Zapdos. And there are plenty of other ways to maneuver around him.

To the people that are arguing that half the counters I listed aren't counters because Lando-I carries knock off. The usage of that move in this meta is
| Knock Off 12.476% |.

This is not a viable argument. You don't team build for the 12% of Landos. You're teambuilding for the rock polish Lando's that are strongly cemented in the meta. Lando's that are carrying Knock Off will be countered and checked by many other pokes it can normally beat.

Landorus-I isn't just a late game cleaner but is also great again stall with its CM set

 

[iamQmai]

If I get the time to get the reqs, I think I'll be going No Ban. It's very good, but I don't know why but I don't seem to have all that much trouble with it on any team. I can understand why it's being percieved as OP but I don't think it is as good as say Megagross, which I still think needs banning :P

It's a problem to switch into sometimes, but it's not consistently fast enough imo to bring down teams without a RP, which then it loses coverage.

 

[napty]

The point of the suspect test is to consider whether or not it is broken through experimenting on the ladder, not making a decision right at the beginning of the suspect. The point of a suspect test is to remain open-minded. While this seems hypocritical because I was against Aegislash being unbanned from the get-go, I went on the suspect ladder only to see if my pre-concerns with Aegislash held any weight.

It is broken, and I always wanted it gone.

I will play the suspect test ladder, but this is absolutely not gonna change anything. Landorus is unhealthy in this metagame and that's always been my opinion. We have other stuff to break through stall, its absence isn't gonna be problematic. It will just give everyone an easier time to teambuild.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

This crap is too good for Ou all his counters(lol what counters) are booped by the correct coverage move and things like specially defensive gyarados, latias and tornadus T AV set are weak to SR and u can destroy them with rock slide or knock off.

 

[Blazikarados]

I'll reserve my opinion on this monster until the suspect is underway and I've had a chance to play without Lando, but based on the way it plays, it seems simply too powerful. I don't think anyone, even those against a ban, will agree that at least a suspect is warranted.

I'm more concerned with its ability to smack balance than its RP vs. offense because offense can usually put a good amount of pressure on it and Lando's sort-of vulnerability to priority makes it easier to deal with for offense.

Balance, on the other hand, could get completely dismantled with it around. Because of its amazing coverage, it's really difficult to switch into and teambuilding as well as playing is made much harder with it around. Teambuilding is harder because you need to try and work checks for pretty much all of the sets and playing against it causes headaches too, what with the frequent pairing with pursuit support to remove the complete stops to it, like Mega Latias.

It's ability to essentially grab momentum every time it comes in is a huge factor. However, because bringing it in is inherently difficult due to its lack of recovery and not-quite-stellar bulk is a tradeoff--thus, I am leaning towards ban if I get reqs but will remain open to evidence from both viewpoints.

Quick edit: the lyric from the music vid in the OP expresses this tradeoff pretty well:

If you want to be with me, baby there's a price you'll pay

 

[Djura]

Oh my god, finally. After that joke of a suspect test that was Aegislash we can finally get to the real stuff.

Landorus-I. Where do I start? That thing's ridiculous. Excellent coverage and wallbreaking prowess matched by none, the ability to run mixed sets to get past its usual checks and counters, and Sheer Force LO boosts are the icing on top of the broken cake. The ability to adapt to any style depending on what your team needs doesn't help its case either. The Rock Polish set, even if it doesn't have a stat boost, still has the boost from Sheer Force and/or LO.

I am so happy that this suspect is happening. I may try to make reqs but I am not sure if I'm good enough. Either way, Landorus-I needs to be banned from OU.