The thread seems pro-ban, and I would like to second this. Every set that Landorus can use in the metagame is viable, and it's so easy to just stack onto your team kind of like how aegislash was in early XY OU (before it got banned). With its expansive movepool, Landorus can easily adapt to the meta, and earth power nukes every mon not named gengar or flying types. Speaking of aforementioned pokemon, Landorus can run knock off and rock slide to hit those pokemon, respectively. It can run any set it needs to help support its team. If the team needs an offensive stealth rocker, landorus is ready. If the team needs a wall breaker, use landorus, etc. I do agree with the ban, however I am very saddened because I had it on my main OU team.
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Yeah, gotta agree with RKA here. Landorus doesn't have 4MSS because it performs its job effectively with 4 moves. While yes, every moveset does have specific counters, it can still take care of the threats that it needs to for your team while you build the rest of the team with those other threats in mind.
For example if you are running a set of Knock Off / Earth Power / HP [Ice] / Focus Blast, then things like Togekiss, Gyarados, SpDef Talonflame and Zard Y are things that Landorus cannot break. All these pokemon can be pretty much beaten by a single partner such as Mega Manectric. Also, this Landorus set still lures in mons like AV Torn-T, Celebi, and AV Slowking with Knock Off making them much easier to take out later.
As you can see even though that set is walled by a few mons, Rock Slide variants KO all its counters (bar the obvious Mega Lati & Cress). So yes, Landorus cannot run all of its coverage options at once, but how are you to know what it is running? It's difficult to guess simply based on the teambuild unless you are able to pinpoint all the other sets as well which is an unrealistic expectation from team preview. Trying to play around it to find its moveset is incredibly dangerous.
In short, Landorus does not need more than 4 moveslots to do its job effectively and thus does not have 4MSS. You pick and choose your counters (which the opponent still cannot know right away) and tailor the rest of the team to deal with them.
For example if you are running a set of Knock Off / Earth Power / HP [Ice] / Focus Blast, then things like Togekiss, Gyarados, SpDef Talonflame and Zard Y are things that Landorus cannot break. All these pokemon can be pretty much beaten by a single partner such as Mega Manectric. Also, this Landorus set still lures in mons like AV Torn-T, Celebi, and AV Slowking with Knock Off making them much easier to take out later.
As you can see even though that set is walled by a few mons, Rock Slide variants KO all its counters (bar the obvious Mega Lati & Cress). So yes, Landorus cannot run all of its coverage options at once, but how are you to know what it is running? It's difficult to guess simply based on the teambuild unless you are able to pinpoint all the other sets as well which is an unrealistic expectation from team preview. Trying to play around it to find its moveset is incredibly dangerous.
In short, Landorus does not need more than 4 moveslots to do its job effectively and thus does not have 4MSS. You pick and choose your counters (which the opponent still cannot know right away) and tailor the rest of the team to deal with them.
You make valid points not going to dispute them just trying to save space
First of all only move landrous always runs is earth power it doesn't always run focus blast of sludge wave
You seem to be forgetting stealth rock does heavy damage to all of those. Against a well played lando team with double switching you'll have much trouble removing hazards.
Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 190-224 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 151-178 (35.6 - 42%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Not as fool profo as it seems
if lando isn't carrying knock off its often pair with pursuit via ttar to beat lati@s, celebi, av slowking
you seem to underestimate how much sludgewave does to all of those
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 129-152 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 147-173 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 143-169 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 117-138 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 117-139 (35.2 - 41.8%)
Psychic does slightly less to all of these. Yes rockslide does more, but even w/o a supereffective move or stab move it can heavily hurt all of its checks.
Also the only reason ppl even really use zapdos or special defensive gyarados is for landorous.
Lastly, you don't even know what moves lando is carrying until it is often too late
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 151-178 (35.6 - 42%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Not as fool profo as it seems
if lando isn't carrying knock off its often pair with pursuit via ttar to beat lati@s, celebi, av slowking
you seem to underestimate how much sludgewave does to all of those
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 129-152 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 147-173 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 143-169 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 117-138 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 117-139 (35.2 - 41.8%)
Psychic does slightly less to all of these. Yes rockslide does more, but even w/o a supereffective move or stab move it can heavily hurt all of its checks.
Also the only reason ppl even really use zapdos or special defensive gyarados is for landorous.
Lastly, you don't even know what moves lando is carrying until it is often too late
No three moves will sweep a well built team. That's a fact. And it doesn't even ohko. Just because something is strong doesn't mean it ban worthy. Also, it's not greninja fast. If it were it would be bannable but as is offense deals wirh it fine.
For balance it can't one shot everything, the calcs prove that. And stall doesn't really care unless you have knock off. If there was a six moveslot meta, it should be banned but in this ou its just good, not broken
I hate posting in OU forums in general but I guess some people need to take lessons.
- Mega-Latias / Cresselia / (SDef (lol who runs that)) Gyarados are super passive and not very interesting to use (Mega-Latias is less passive than the 2 others but it takes the mega-slot).
- Mandibuzz / Zapdos take 25% on SR + they generally run Defog which means they'll be under pressure.
- Talonflame / Mega-Charizard Y take 50% on rocks and are pseudo-weak to Tyranitar (hi Gengar).
Also I don't even understand why are you talking about "[insert_pokemon_name] beats [insert_pokemon_name] 1v1". This isn't even an argument and I won't explain why because we all know every existant mon can be beaten 1v1.
This post just means if you are against Lando-I's ban (which is something I can understand), have the decence to put some real arguments on the table because what you are doing here isn't really helping the anti-ban side.
Excellent checks/counters list!
- Mega-Latias / Cresselia / (SDef (lol who runs that)) Gyarados are super passive and not very interesting to use (Mega-Latias is less passive than the 2 others but it takes the mega-slot).
- Mandibuzz / Zapdos take 25% on SR + they generally run Defog which means they'll be under pressure.
- Talonflame / Mega-Charizard Y take 50% on rocks and are pseudo-weak to Tyranitar (hi Gengar).
Also I don't even understand why are you talking about "[insert_pokemon_name] beats [insert_pokemon_name] 1v1". This isn't even an argument and I won't explain why because we all know every existant mon can be beaten 1v1.
Since when Lando-I always runs Focus Blast ? You don't need it if your team doesn't care about Skarmory, like you don't need HP Ice if Gliscor isn't an issue. Rock Slide / Knock Off are amazing whatever you decide to use and you can even do without both. There's no 4MSS if you know what is the best for your team.Luckstard. said:
I just feel like you're speaking in a vacuum. I didn't want to quote this part but I had to just to make you realize that means nothing (and that's also wrong, ofc).Luckstard said:
I don't get it man. You're talking like removing hazards is actually super easy while its just not ? Latias / Latios / Starmie are trapped by Tyranitar, Zapdos / Mandibuzz take 25% on SR and are generally used as a Lando-I check and Excadrill struggles spinning against Garchomp / Hippowdon. Defog Skarmory isn't a thing nowadays because people prefer Spikes + Whirlwind + Taunt/Iron Head.Luckstard. said:
I agree with the fact that Lando-I isn't super fast but still, his bulk/strength/speed ratio make it hard enough to deal with. Using it as a hit'n'run attacker is super easy if you have some defensive stuff in the back since it only takes 12,5% on SR + is immune to Spikes. It also can take some strong n fast attackers like Excadrill's Iron Head, Mega-Diancie's Moonblast, Talonflame's Brave Bird and it can even take Choice Banded Azumarill's Aqua-Jet (45% chance to survive after Stealth Rock if Lando has 0 HP/0 Def).Luckstard. said:
This post just means if you are against Lando-I's ban (which is something I can understand), have the decence to put some real arguments on the table because what you are doing here isn't really helping the anti-ban side.
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One important thing to note is that while there are checks/counters to each Lando-I set, there's none to *all* of them, sans Mega-Latias and Cresselia, which is obviously pigeonholing.
And given that Lando-I has U-Turn, it's really quite viable to get Lando-I in, fire off a hit on your check (and even if you resist it, Life Orb+Sheer Force means it'll still hurt), and just U-Turn out to the appropriate counter (Banded/ScarfTar being a good partner). Rinse and repeat til your check can't check Lando-I.
And given that Lando-I has U-Turn, it's really quite viable to get Lando-I in, fire off a hit on your check (and even if you resist it, Life Orb+Sheer Force means it'll still hurt), and just U-Turn out to the appropriate counter (Banded/ScarfTar being a good partner). Rinse and repeat til your check can't check Lando-I.
The Goomy
Whitest Mexican Alive
This mon is so versatile it's scary.
I also think calling Aqua Jet and Ice Shard common priority is a bit of a stretch as Azu isn't nearly as good/common as it once was, and Mamoswine/Weavile have no dream of switching in (and these mons are commonly on sand teams that lando-i feasts on).
Anyway, agree with choice of suspect, should be fun to play again.
I also think calling Aqua Jet and Ice Shard common priority is a bit of a stretch as Azu isn't nearly as good/common as it once was, and Mamoswine/Weavile have no dream of switching in (and these mons are commonly on sand teams that lando-i feasts on).
Anyway, agree with choice of suspect, should be fun to play again.
It amazes me how, in every suspect test this gen, there are people who will defend a broken aspect in the metagame because they are afraid that it's the lone savior of the tier and that OU will fall apart without it. We don't tolerate broken pokemon simply out of fear for what the metagame looks like after said broken pokemon is banned. Landorus-I has been an unhealthy aspect of this meta for a while, and its ban has been a long time coming. I highly encourage anyone who holds onto the notion that Landorus-I should stay because it's holding back the meta from becoming saturated with "unbreakable balance cores" to reevaulate what we seek to accomplish in a suspect test, because that kind of mentality creates stagnation. For those who genuinely believe it isn't broken, good luck defending that position. You'll need it.
Altaria and tytanitar come to mind in this statement, both are mega capable pokemon, but I'll focus first on tytanitar, He has been anchor to competitive since gen 2 and keeps getting better every gen, it's one of the few pokemon capable of feigning mega status while hiding it's role to an extent on team preview, be banded pursuit trapping, setting rocks and sand, acting as a lure with usable special attack, setting DD without mega, going mega with DD, working as a reliable scarfer or just setting rocks as an offensive pokemon capable of trapping while performing a semi reliable spdef sponge role and stoping bird spam to an extent ttar fills many roles in the metagame and comes with a high degree of unpredictability. However ttar can't be slapped on every team and comes with its shortcomings like stacking weaknesses, not being fully specialized like other SR setters, or even has to little cost effectiveness and a pletora of checks on the tier.
Altaria is a jack of all trades, master of pretty much all, however his normal form is mediocre. It needs it's mega to function in OU, there is no denying that given its versatility it can sweep, support work as a pivot or answer to wallbreaker like Zard Y. Despite that it still has a huge cost effectiveness tied to its mega status.
Landorus has one role with support hybridization, however it's ridiculously splashable, I already mentioned that when I want to shut down stall I either take manaphy or Landorus, and in most scenarios Lando I wins the call due to spike immunity, immediate fire power and knock off support while pressuring HO with the possibility of being a RP set. Lando I doesn't occupy a megaslot and half of the time he doesn't stack weaknesses while offering great assets to its team. He is way to reliable without the letdowns of other pokemon that want to wallbreak like megagardevoir, charY or Victini.
Trust me, I choose what I want to cover with him, there is no 4mss with Lando I, it works well on the scenarios you want him to work and your opponent has to risk the coin toss on scouting him be by sacking or banking on a revenge killer. That's why it's easy to caricature claims of Landorus I having 4mss, for people that have used Lando I in a no win condition way but a support for other win condition don't feel he has that problem, if anything it's one of those pokemon that is incredibly hard to stop from performing it's intended tole in a team once it hits the battlefield, your Greninja comparison is spot on, Lando I fulfilled the niche that Greninja left with little letdowns for me.
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Just some thoughts on Landorus-I (though many people have already thought along the same lines):
In all honestly, I have to say that landorus-I is versatile and strong. It s a ridiculously effective revenge killer with insane coverage, amazing power, and the ability to change moves. This thing barely has any switch ins.
With Sheer Force + LO being on pretty much every variant, STAB Earth Power is spammable as hell, not to mention it's unpredictable movepool of various moves which basically wreck anything besides both Mega-latias and cresselia. Because of this, even a team prepared for landorus-I can still lose to it depending on its set, the issue of "what set does it freaking run?" causes another big headache anyway. it is almost impossible to know what set it is running (unless you played that fellow before), and you are just forced to blindly guess and hope for the best.
In addition of the element of surprise, as what people before me have highlighted, another potential advantage lies in the fact that it is capable of weakening what is supposed to be your check against certain threats, which makes you more prone.
However, a pokemon that is top notch in running unpredictable movepools that basically eliminates competition for team supporters is something that is over-centralizing the metagame, which equates to a reduction in competitiveness anyway. Moreover, providing average synergy in terms of defense, it mainly gives offensive/hyper-offensive teams an advantage since you can’t expect landorus-I to be run on Stall or most Balanced teams in the first place. I honestly don’t think that something like this should remain in the OU metagame.
Ban
In all honestly, I have to say that landorus-I is versatile and strong. It s a ridiculously effective revenge killer with insane coverage, amazing power, and the ability to change moves. This thing barely has any switch ins.
With Sheer Force + LO being on pretty much every variant, STAB Earth Power is spammable as hell, not to mention it's unpredictable movepool of various moves which basically wreck anything besides both Mega-latias and cresselia. Because of this, even a team prepared for landorus-I can still lose to it depending on its set, the issue of "what set does it freaking run?" causes another big headache anyway. it is almost impossible to know what set it is running (unless you played that fellow before), and you are just forced to blindly guess and hope for the best.
In addition of the element of surprise, as what people before me have highlighted, another potential advantage lies in the fact that it is capable of weakening what is supposed to be your check against certain threats, which makes you more prone.
However, a pokemon that is top notch in running unpredictable movepools that basically eliminates competition for team supporters is something that is over-centralizing the metagame, which equates to a reduction in competitiveness anyway. Moreover, providing average synergy in terms of defense, it mainly gives offensive/hyper-offensive teams an advantage since you can’t expect landorus-I to be run on Stall or most Balanced teams in the first place. I honestly don’t think that something like this should remain in the OU metagame.
Ban
Alright, I just saw the Greninja comparison come up, and as out there as it may seem, I want to take that comparison of their effects a bit further to show why Lando-I is just as if not more unhealthy for the metagame.
First the point these two have in common: Wide coverage and an ability that allows them to eat through cores easily. Both Pokemon faced the anti-ban argument of "they can't use all their coverage at once", but the truth is they never really HAD to. Essentially, I could build an offensive team, find what mons or cores I was weak to, and choose Greninja's moves to beat them easily. Both mons had an extremely small pool of true counters that were heavily defensive and thus limited in playstyle. Each also had the tools to break one other playstyle on top of balance.
Now to get into the differences. Greninja had much better speed, but its power was a notable margin below Lando-I's
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 164-192 (48 - 56.3%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
Lando-I hits 20% harder with STAB (his most common choice) and about as hard without compared to the always STAB moves Greninja fired off. Greninja was a Pokemon equipped to break balance and fast enough to sweep through offensive teams: Lando-I on the other hand is powerful enough to sweep balance and (with AoA or Calm Mind) eat through Stall teams. Both Pokemon share a weakness to priority, but the types of teams Landorus puts in the most work against carry it less than the offensive teams Greninja would go against (at least as far as being strong enough to revenge him). So that's a point Landorus has over Greninja as a "Balance+ Breaker" to start.
Landorus also just gets to beat whatever he likes with the right move slot: Greninja was strong, but never quite going to break really meaty Stall cores since he lacked boosting ability and was very weak to passive damage (touches all hazards and loses health to his LO); Landorus can elect to sweep and clean offense with Rock Polish, break stall open with CM or Knock Off, and these moves still don't stop him from doing work against balance or the 3rd style he considers. Unlike Greninja, you can't see Landorus and immediately thing "my team is HO, so while dangerous, Landorus won't sweep my team immediately". Defensive teams would have to play smart against Greninja, but he wasn't able to 6-0 the playstyle with the right set.
And in response to claims of balance being too good with defensive cores, find me a significant number of cores that can handle the following at once
- Zard-Y
- Mixed Altaria
- Manaphy
- Gengar
- Thundurus
- Gardevoir
- Kyu-B
- Serperior
There's a plethora of things capable of breaking defensive playstyles, so I don't think hindering the playstyle justifies keeping a Pokemon that not only beats them, but smashes its way through other things with reasonable support and reasonable (not even expert, just reasonable) skill. And even if these theoretical cores did emerge, that would just call for assessing the Meta after the fact. MAYBE something bad shows up later, but we know for a fact we have Landorus-I right now, who is a problem to assess now. This is the same reason I hated the timing for the Aegislash retest: keeping a Pokemon around to fix problems is just having OP check OP. And while much less likely to happen in Lando's case, I'd like to note most people in the Aegislash meta actually thought the issue got WORSE with him there. Unless you can provide me irrefutable proof that Landorus is the thing keeping balance from being broken, that claim means nothing to me in deciding if he should be banned or not.
Landorus-I does not have 4MSS syndrome. Landorus does not need more than 4 moves to sufficiently do his work for a team, which is breaking certain common defensive cores. The fact that he can afford to run Boosting moves, which DECREASE his effectiveness theoretically in these roles, and still be an S-Rank threat (all the sets are ranked S) entails the opposite: Landorus does what he needs with 3 moves, and then gets to pile on some extra with the 4th.
First the point these two have in common: Wide coverage and an ability that allows them to eat through cores easily. Both Pokemon faced the anti-ban argument of "they can't use all their coverage at once", but the truth is they never really HAD to. Essentially, I could build an offensive team, find what mons or cores I was weak to, and choose Greninja's moves to beat them easily. Both mons had an extremely small pool of true counters that were heavily defensive and thus limited in playstyle. Each also had the tools to break one other playstyle on top of balance.
Now to get into the differences. Greninja had much better speed, but its power was a notable margin below Lando-I's
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 164-192 (48 - 56.3%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
Lando-I hits 20% harder with STAB (his most common choice) and about as hard without compared to the always STAB moves Greninja fired off. Greninja was a Pokemon equipped to break balance and fast enough to sweep through offensive teams: Lando-I on the other hand is powerful enough to sweep balance and (with AoA or Calm Mind) eat through Stall teams. Both Pokemon share a weakness to priority, but the types of teams Landorus puts in the most work against carry it less than the offensive teams Greninja would go against (at least as far as being strong enough to revenge him). So that's a point Landorus has over Greninja as a "Balance+ Breaker" to start.
Landorus also just gets to beat whatever he likes with the right move slot: Greninja was strong, but never quite going to break really meaty Stall cores since he lacked boosting ability and was very weak to passive damage (touches all hazards and loses health to his LO); Landorus can elect to sweep and clean offense with Rock Polish, break stall open with CM or Knock Off, and these moves still don't stop him from doing work against balance or the 3rd style he considers. Unlike Greninja, you can't see Landorus and immediately thing "my team is HO, so while dangerous, Landorus won't sweep my team immediately". Defensive teams would have to play smart against Greninja, but he wasn't able to 6-0 the playstyle with the right set.
And in response to claims of balance being too good with defensive cores, find me a significant number of cores that can handle the following at once
- Zard-Y
- Mixed Altaria
- Manaphy
- Gengar
- Thundurus
- Gardevoir
- Kyu-B
- Serperior
There's a plethora of things capable of breaking defensive playstyles, so I don't think hindering the playstyle justifies keeping a Pokemon that not only beats them, but smashes its way through other things with reasonable support and reasonable (not even expert, just reasonable) skill. And even if these theoretical cores did emerge, that would just call for assessing the Meta after the fact. MAYBE something bad shows up later, but we know for a fact we have Landorus-I right now, who is a problem to assess now. This is the same reason I hated the timing for the Aegislash retest: keeping a Pokemon around to fix problems is just having OP check OP. And while much less likely to happen in Lando's case, I'd like to note most people in the Aegislash meta actually thought the issue got WORSE with him there. Unless you can provide me irrefutable proof that Landorus is the thing keeping balance from being broken, that claim means nothing to me in deciding if he should be banned or not.
Landorus-I does not have 4MSS syndrome. Landorus does not need more than 4 moves to sufficiently do his work for a team, which is breaking certain common defensive cores. The fact that he can afford to run Boosting moves, which DECREASE his effectiveness theoretically in these roles, and still be an S-Rank threat (all the sets are ranked S) entails the opposite: Landorus does what he needs with 3 moves, and then gets to pile on some extra with the 4th.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I think that it's worth noting that Sand Force still exists. In BW, a big area of contention was the fact that lando can be either sand force or sheer force. I don't believe that the different pokeball idea was ever implemented, so there is no telling. Lando is, therefore, comparable to char-x and char-y. Of course, the difference isn't as drastic, but Lando still has the ability to screw over pretty much all of its counters with a physical set.
tl;dr: Banded Lando in sand easily beats Mega Venu, Mega Sableye, Rotom-W, Chansey, Clefable, Gyarados, Spdef Gliscor, Latias (non-mega), SpDef Skarmory, and any generic special wall.
It also beats Cress and Mega Latias, but they need some prior damage in realistic instances (though cress can't heal, so this is pretty easy). It's worth noting that these calcs feature mostly physical variants of these would-be checks (rotom, clefable, venusaur, etc.) because that's what was already in the calculator, so the damage output will be even greater against those mons with spreads more tailored to checking special lando. Also worth noting is that lando can still beat most of these without a choice band, but it is (imo) the best item for a physical set attempting to lure its typical checks and counters. It cannot be understated how strong that earthquake is:
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew in Sand: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 216-255 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Compared to:
This gives lando the ability to easily dismantle any defensive core that does not feature a full health physically defensive skarm or physically defensive gliscor (cress can't heal because of sand). This is a huge deal given that physical walls won't really be switching into lando.
U-turn gives it even greater utility. A u-turn out of a latias not only does major damage, it also lets you bring in a mon to easily force it out or trap it. Since latias is now at 50%, it can no longer switch in. Skarm and gliscor are definitely non-issues, as a u-turn into goth will eliminate them easily (as well as most other walls, though lando has no issue running through them anyway).
Yes, choice band means that playing around lando is easier. Life orb alleviates this issue, though it prevents some 2hkos without prior damage, and it wears away at lando's health, but still: physical lando is flawed.
At the same time, physical lando is hardly relevant to begin with. The fact that it can annihilate any of special lando's switchins while still being a beast on its own (u-turn helps with choice band issues) makes it especially dangerous.
Regardless of the result of the suspect test, mechanics like this (different pokeballs) need to be implemented.
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery (also u-turn)
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur in Sand: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Sableye in Sand: 255-301 (83.8 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W in Sand: 146-172 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sand: 409-483 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable in Sand: 330-388 (83.7 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Sand: 332-392 (94 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor in Sand: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 338-398 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur in Sand: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Sableye in Sand: 255-301 (83.8 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W in Sand: 146-172 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sand: 409-483 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable in Sand: 330-388 (83.7 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Sand: 332-392 (94 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor in Sand: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 338-398 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
tl;dr: Banded Lando in sand easily beats Mega Venu, Mega Sableye, Rotom-W, Chansey, Clefable, Gyarados, Spdef Gliscor, Latias (non-mega), SpDef Skarmory, and any generic special wall.
It also beats Cress and Mega Latias, but they need some prior damage in realistic instances (though cress can't heal, so this is pretty easy). It's worth noting that these calcs feature mostly physical variants of these would-be checks (rotom, clefable, venusaur, etc.) because that's what was already in the calculator, so the damage output will be even greater against those mons with spreads more tailored to checking special lando. Also worth noting is that lando can still beat most of these without a choice band, but it is (imo) the best item for a physical set attempting to lure its typical checks and counters. It cannot be understated how strong that earthquake is:
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew in Sand: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 216-255 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Compared to:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
This gives lando the ability to easily dismantle any defensive core that does not feature a full health physically defensive skarm or physically defensive gliscor (cress can't heal because of sand). This is a huge deal given that physical walls won't really be switching into lando.
U-turn gives it even greater utility. A u-turn out of a latias not only does major damage, it also lets you bring in a mon to easily force it out or trap it. Since latias is now at 50%, it can no longer switch in. Skarm and gliscor are definitely non-issues, as a u-turn into goth will eliminate them easily (as well as most other walls, though lando has no issue running through them anyway).
Yes, choice band means that playing around lando is easier. Life orb alleviates this issue, though it prevents some 2hkos without prior damage, and it wears away at lando's health, but still: physical lando is flawed.
At the same time, physical lando is hardly relevant to begin with. The fact that it can annihilate any of special lando's switchins while still being a beast on its own (u-turn helps with choice band issues) makes it especially dangerous.
Regardless of the result of the suspect test, mechanics like this (different pokeballs) need to be implemented.
I'm sorry but that means nothing. The fact that it can break those mons with a move implies that they are not counters, this happens every suspect ever, do we really need to remind everyone the definition?
is there a better wallbreaker in ou than landorus?
And I’m not talking about sand force choice band landorus. I'm not talking about landorus-therian either. I'm not even talking about rock slide landorus-incarnate which is a mix of the two. I’m talking about earth power focus blast sludge wave calm mind landorus incarnate with the sheer force ability and 331 speed and timid nature, ohkoing clefable with a single boost and outspeeding base 100s while 2hkoing almost everything in the tier with its vast movepool and coverage, releasing STAB earth powers and not getting walled by anything except cress and mega latias, which are not even common in ou, on top of the opponent not knowing what moves you are running until its too late
And I’m not talking about sand force choice band landorus. I'm not talking about landorus-therian either. I'm not even talking about rock slide landorus-incarnate which is a mix of the two. I’m talking about earth power focus blast sludge wave calm mind landorus incarnate with the sheer force ability and 331 speed and timid nature, ohkoing clefable with a single boost and outspeeding base 100s while 2hkoing almost everything in the tier with its vast movepool and coverage, releasing STAB earth powers and not getting walled by anything except cress and mega latias, which are not even common in ou, on top of the opponent not knowing what moves you are running until its too late
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Finally we get to see this test happening, and while I'm not sure if I'll have the time or motivation to play for this test, I do agree with a ban as its combined qualities of bulk, speed, power and more power is a bit overwhelming and makes it way too splashable of a Pokemon even for teams that already have a Ground type, hell, I've seen teams that stack 3 Ground types because Landorus is just that good.
A lot of people do tend to overlook that this thing has the same statistical bulk as Landorus-T which is just enough for it to comfortably escape being RK'ed by stuff like SD Talon's BB, Bisharp's Sucker Punch, and other common priority that would absolutely plague it if it had, say, 70 base Def like it's brother Thundurus and actually took Life Orb recoil or 25% from Stealth Rocks. If it had even one or two of those setbacks that the other Genie suffers from perhaps Landorus-I wouldnt be so irritating, but right now the only real statistical drawback to this Pokemon is being outsped by the 110 Speed tier, which doesn't mean too much when Knock Off is becoming more popular and therefore most of the common OU mons in that speed tier can't really switch in. Still, the fact that I'm trying to call 101 Speed a statistical drawback is a pretty good indicator of just how well rounded Landorus is in addition to being absurdly powerful.
And as far as Landorus' checks and counters go, since I've seen plenty of mention of them, the issue isn't really that there's a scarcity of checks or counters for Landorus, there's actually a pretty healthy amount of them, it's that each check or counter either gets hit by a possible coverage move on the switch, lacks the power to immediately threaten a healthy Lando, loses to CM on the switch (looking at you Tornadus), or has it's own crippling issues as a Pokemon that makes it hard to fit in on teams.
Lets not kid ourselves, Cresselia and Mega Latias, two Pokemon I've seen mentioned a lot, aren't exactly the most splashable of Pokemon, and both either require substantial support or in Cresselia's case, an entire team dedicated to the appropriate playstyle to work. I'd probably be willing to admit ORAS Ubers is a balanced and fun meta before ever using Cresselia on balance for Landorus so it can sit there and suck momentum. Mega Latias isn't as passive or bad but has plenty of problems as well that have already been mentioned (Pursuit, lack of initial power, is often hazard fodder for Steels, Stored Power set can't touch Darks at all, etc.).
Ban Landorus, with this massive threat gone perhaps we can start seeing some positive change in the tier.
Oh and for those afraid of balance cores without their crutch, I'd give Mega Gardevoir a look, though I have to warn you that you'll actually be required to think and be a decent teambuilder to use it.
A lot of people do tend to overlook that this thing has the same statistical bulk as Landorus-T which is just enough for it to comfortably escape being RK'ed by stuff like SD Talon's BB, Bisharp's Sucker Punch, and other common priority that would absolutely plague it if it had, say, 70 base Def like it's brother Thundurus and actually took Life Orb recoil or 25% from Stealth Rocks. If it had even one or two of those setbacks that the other Genie suffers from perhaps Landorus-I wouldnt be so irritating, but right now the only real statistical drawback to this Pokemon is being outsped by the 110 Speed tier, which doesn't mean too much when Knock Off is becoming more popular and therefore most of the common OU mons in that speed tier can't really switch in. Still, the fact that I'm trying to call 101 Speed a statistical drawback is a pretty good indicator of just how well rounded Landorus is in addition to being absurdly powerful.
And as far as Landorus' checks and counters go, since I've seen plenty of mention of them, the issue isn't really that there's a scarcity of checks or counters for Landorus, there's actually a pretty healthy amount of them, it's that each check or counter either gets hit by a possible coverage move on the switch, lacks the power to immediately threaten a healthy Lando, loses to CM on the switch (looking at you Tornadus), or has it's own crippling issues as a Pokemon that makes it hard to fit in on teams.
Lets not kid ourselves, Cresselia and Mega Latias, two Pokemon I've seen mentioned a lot, aren't exactly the most splashable of Pokemon, and both either require substantial support or in Cresselia's case, an entire team dedicated to the appropriate playstyle to work. I'd probably be willing to admit ORAS Ubers is a balanced and fun meta before ever using Cresselia on balance for Landorus so it can sit there and suck momentum. Mega Latias isn't as passive or bad but has plenty of problems as well that have already been mentioned (Pursuit, lack of initial power, is often hazard fodder for Steels, Stored Power set can't touch Darks at all, etc.).
Ban Landorus, with this massive threat gone perhaps we can start seeing some positive change in the tier.
Oh and for those afraid of balance cores without their crutch, I'd give Mega Gardevoir a look, though I have to warn you that you'll actually be required to think and be a decent teambuilder to use it.
I am fairly certain lando I is broken. It has absurd power with a great ability, a unique speed tier, a good movepool and a lot of versatility. That being said Lando I is good but is far from unstoppable, there are tons of faster mons these days, it isn't particularly bulky and a 4x weakness to ice isn't ideal considering it is one of the more common types of hidden power people run. For me this is the opposite of the aegislash test. Did most people truly think aegislash was broken? Probably not but they preferred the metagame without it. For me this is the opposite. In my opinion the meta without it sucks. With lando gone people are going to a bunch of fat balance and it is just plain boring. Since the focus of suspects these days seems to be more about making a more enjoyable metagame rather than determining whether or not something is broken I have to admit I absolutely prefer it with Lando I than without.
Landorus isn't anything like any other 'Mon that got banned, it's insanely strong and can run almost anything as its coverage move. Earth Power is literally the only "staple" the rest depends upon what kind of team you're running and what kind of set you feel like running. It's retardedly strong and just runs whatever it wants as coverage. It has so many coverage moves that make it impossible to have a perfect counter to that isn't named Mega Latias or Cresselia. Sure, it can get picked off by priority from 'Mons like Talonflame, Weavile, etc, but they have no way of getting in safely and will require a Pokemon to be sacked. It also can run different sets to run over different playstyles, Rock Polish to clean up vs offense, CM / Knock Off to wallbreak, and 4 Atks to destroy balance teams.
Here are three SPL replays that display this: 1, 2, & 3). In the first replay, Ether is running SR / Earth Power / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave, which has an amazing matchup vs lady bug, whose only ground resists were Skarmory and Celebi, both getting 2HKO'd by Landorus' coverage moves. In the second replay, Adam runs Sub / EP / Sludge Wave / HP Ice vs Reymedy, whose only answer to Landorus is Gliscor, and gets up a free Sub vs Clefable using Knock Off, forcing Reymedy to sac a Pokemon, Adam later gets another Sub up and sweeps the last four Pokemon. In the third replay, IAmGingy is running EP / Rock Slide / Knock Off / HP Ice, grabbing 3 kills and weakening last 'Mon Tangrowth to the point it's easily revenged by Alakazam. This isn't an argument of "he counterteammed" and had the right set for the game, it's moreso predictability, knowing what trends these players like to make and what Landorus set punishes their common choices the most and knowing what your team needs the most.
The argument of "Balance and Stall will be too hard to break and too risk free" isn't true, nor is it a good point to not ban Landorus. Landorus is a broken Pokemon, which is reason for it to be banned. Right now, Landorus is a no risk balance/stall breaker. It fits on a lot of different teams and is easily the best at breaking these playstyles. There are plenty of other Pokemon that can break stall or balanced builds, but non are near as risk free and none of them are broken. Something like Manaphy requires you to be running the right moveset and you need to get it in for free, while being easily revenge killed and forced to have to TG again later in the game. Kyurem-Black is, first of all, weak to Stealth Rocks, but also is either easily countered or can get worn down extremely fast. It's forced to run Iron Head or HP Fire over Roost, forcing a timely switchin in and good hazard control. Life Orb Tornadus-T also has flaws, due to its Stealth Rock weakness, Hurricane inaccuracy, and its inability to provide much defensive synergy, and even less in a metagame without Landorus. And then there are all the balance breaking Megas, such as both Charizard forms, Gardevoir, Metagross, Alakazam, and Scizor to a lesser extent. All of these 'Mons are really good, even if they require your mega slot.
Landorus is insanely strong Pokemon, I have seen very few, if any, good arguments saying Landorus isn't broken, merely it makes the metagame better. I disagree, a metagame with a 'Mon that forces you to run things like Mega Latias and AV Torn-T on any team that isn't offense, isn't a good one. Ban.
Here are three SPL replays that display this: 1, 2, & 3). In the first replay, Ether is running SR / Earth Power / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave, which has an amazing matchup vs lady bug, whose only ground resists were Skarmory and Celebi, both getting 2HKO'd by Landorus' coverage moves. In the second replay, Adam runs Sub / EP / Sludge Wave / HP Ice vs Reymedy, whose only answer to Landorus is Gliscor, and gets up a free Sub vs Clefable using Knock Off, forcing Reymedy to sac a Pokemon, Adam later gets another Sub up and sweeps the last four Pokemon. In the third replay, IAmGingy is running EP / Rock Slide / Knock Off / HP Ice, grabbing 3 kills and weakening last 'Mon Tangrowth to the point it's easily revenged by Alakazam. This isn't an argument of "he counterteammed" and had the right set for the game, it's moreso predictability, knowing what trends these players like to make and what Landorus set punishes their common choices the most and knowing what your team needs the most.
The argument of "Balance and Stall will be too hard to break and too risk free" isn't true, nor is it a good point to not ban Landorus. Landorus is a broken Pokemon, which is reason for it to be banned. Right now, Landorus is a no risk balance/stall breaker. It fits on a lot of different teams and is easily the best at breaking these playstyles. There are plenty of other Pokemon that can break stall or balanced builds, but non are near as risk free and none of them are broken. Something like Manaphy requires you to be running the right moveset and you need to get it in for free, while being easily revenge killed and forced to have to TG again later in the game. Kyurem-Black is, first of all, weak to Stealth Rocks, but also is either easily countered or can get worn down extremely fast. It's forced to run Iron Head or HP Fire over Roost, forcing a timely switchin in and good hazard control. Life Orb Tornadus-T also has flaws, due to its Stealth Rock weakness, Hurricane inaccuracy, and its inability to provide much defensive synergy, and even less in a metagame without Landorus. And then there are all the balance breaking Megas, such as both Charizard forms, Gardevoir, Metagross, Alakazam, and Scizor to a lesser extent. All of these 'Mons are really good, even if they require your mega slot.
Landorus is insanely strong Pokemon, I have seen very few, if any, good arguments saying Landorus isn't broken, merely it makes the metagame better. I disagree, a metagame with a 'Mon that forces you to run things like Mega Latias and AV Torn-T on any team that isn't offense, isn't a good one. Ban.
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I'm going to put in my 2 cents here and hope that life will keep going.
In a vacuum, Landorus-I NEEDS to get banned.
When looking at the overall make-up of Lando-I; the one thing that sets it apart from the rest of its BST 600 brethren is its ability: Sheer Force.
Combining its ability with LO allows Lando-I to gain a 60% increase on attacks without the recoil that; when an item like LO was first conceived in Gen IV, recoil was believed to be enough of a balance.
Need further proof... look no further than Feraligatr, a virtual RU mon, now causing terror in UU and rising because of its newly endowed Sheer Force ability.
People are going to say that I am making this too simplistic and maybe I am.... but from where I stand playing competively since early XY, I can say with total confidence that Lando-I is one of the more simplistic WMDs we have while not even mentioning the kicker... it doesn't take up a F*CKIN MEGA SLOT!!!
How bout this fun exercise... without looking up Lando-I BST; pick out his splits:
HP / DEF / SPD / SPE
A. 71 / 95 / 95 / 99
B. 89 / 90 / 80 / 101
C. 108 / 95 / 85 / 102
D. 92 / 90 / 90 / 98
So, to summarize, we have a mon that has the following working for it:
- Nice combo of respectable Bulk with above average speed
- SpA (and Atk) buffs without recoil that is the virtual equivalent of Mega Camerupt (Don't believe me... click below); whom from a sole SpA standpoint is tied as the 10th highest SpA user (26th overall; with 16 other mons or formes residing in UBERS)
- Allows you to keep your Mega slot for whatever the hell you want to run
- Can run a Mixed set... o hell lets expand...
- Ohhhh the sets; RP Sweeper, CM Sweeper, 4 Attacks... need I continue...
Yes Lando-I has some cons, but as laid out here... Lando-I's Sheer Power more than makes up for any deficiencies he might possess and, most importantly, easily covers up any problems a team looking for offensive mon that keeps pressure on the opposing team is looking for in a heartbeat.
Like I said, just my 2 cents but sorry Lando-I; BAN!!!
In a vacuum, Landorus-I NEEDS to get banned.
When looking at the overall make-up of Lando-I; the one thing that sets it apart from the rest of its BST 600 brethren is its ability: Sheer Force.
Combining its ability with LO allows Lando-I to gain a 60% increase on attacks without the recoil that; when an item like LO was first conceived in Gen IV, recoil was believed to be enough of a balance.
Need further proof... look no further than Feraligatr, a virtual RU mon, now causing terror in UU and rising because of its newly endowed Sheer Force ability.
People are going to say that I am making this too simplistic and maybe I am.... but from where I stand playing competively since early XY, I can say with total confidence that Lando-I is one of the more simplistic WMDs we have while not even mentioning the kicker... it doesn't take up a F*CKIN MEGA SLOT!!!
How bout this fun exercise... without looking up Lando-I BST; pick out his splits:
HP / DEF / SPD / SPE
A. 71 / 95 / 95 / 99
B. 89 / 90 / 80 / 101
C. 108 / 95 / 85 / 102
D. 92 / 90 / 90 / 98
The answer is B. and for SH!TS and giggles... the other splits:
A. Genesest - Currently in UBERS
B. Lando-I
C. Garchomp - Resided in UBERS during DPP and a staple of OU for the past 2 Gens.
D. Hydreigon - Beast during BW; suffered the most due to the introduction of fairies as STABS can't do shyt to them [HAILLLL HYDREIGON!!!]
A. Genesest - Currently in UBERS
B. Lando-I
C. Garchomp - Resided in UBERS during DPP and a staple of OU for the past 2 Gens.
D. Hydreigon - Beast during BW; suffered the most due to the introduction of fairies as STABS can't do shyt to them [HAILLLL HYDREIGON!!!]
So, to summarize, we have a mon that has the following working for it:
- Nice combo of respectable Bulk with above average speed
- SpA (and Atk) buffs without recoil that is the virtual equivalent of Mega Camerupt (Don't believe me... click below); whom from a sole SpA standpoint is tied as the 10th highest SpA user (26th overall; with 16 other mons or formes residing in UBERS)
- Allows you to keep your Mega slot for whatever the hell you want to run
- Can run a Mixed set... o hell lets expand...
- Ohhhh the sets; RP Sweeper, CM Sweeper, 4 Attacks... need I continue...
Yes Lando-I has some cons, but as laid out here... Lando-I's Sheer Power more than makes up for any deficiencies he might possess and, most importantly, easily covers up any problems a team looking for offensive mon that keeps pressure on the opposing team is looking for in a heartbeat.
Like I said, just my 2 cents but sorry Lando-I; BAN!!!
Mega Camerupt EP on 252 / 168 Ferrothorn...
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-205 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Landorus EP on that same Ferrothorn...
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-205 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Landorus EP on that same Ferrothorn...
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lando-I is a broken Pokemon, has a lot of versatility.
You chansey you have to knock off + focus blast:
Life Orb SpA 252 Sheer Focus Blast Force vs. Landorus 4 hp / 252 SpD Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) - 91.8% chance to 2HKO.
To Zapdos you have rock slide:
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Sheer Force vs. Rock Slide 252 HP / Def 168+ Zapdos: 192-229 (50 - 59.6%) - 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
To Landorus-T you have HP Ice:
Life Orb Landorus SpA 252 Hidden Power Ice vs. HP 0/0 SpD Landorus-T: 380-447 (119.1 - 140.1%) - OHKO guaranteed.
You will not have many threads to stop, it's a Pokemon with great speed and destroys many Pokémon ORAS for this and some reasons but I opine that BAN
You chansey you have to knock off + focus blast:
Life Orb SpA 252 Sheer Focus Blast Force vs. Landorus 4 hp / 252 SpD Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) - 91.8% chance to 2HKO.
To Zapdos you have rock slide:
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Sheer Force vs. Rock Slide 252 HP / Def 168+ Zapdos: 192-229 (50 - 59.6%) - 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
To Landorus-T you have HP Ice:
Life Orb Landorus SpA 252 Hidden Power Ice vs. HP 0/0 SpD Landorus-T: 380-447 (119.1 - 140.1%) - OHKO guaranteed.
You will not have many threads to stop, it's a Pokemon with great speed and destroys many Pokémon ORAS for this and some reasons but I opine that BAN
Landorus's ability to adapt and consistently make itself more dangerous as time goes on due to the multitude of viable sets it can run is honestly one of its defining characteristics. Having like 2 counters while everything else gets shit on by virtue of its ridiculous power isn't fun, combined with its decent bulk, workable movepool filled with shit that takes advantage of Sheer Force, being able to run Knock Off/Rock Slide to fuck up standard checks, CM to shit on Balance/Stall, AoA for maximum "no switch-ins haha!", RP to dominate Offense, and the advantage of being being unable to be stopped by status, it makes Landorus unhealthy at the current moment. Furthermore, the argument that boils down to "but balance will become OP! No ban plz!" is simply ridiculous. I can count like minimum 7~ viable wallbreakers from a half-assed glance alone, never mind that if something's broken, you need to ban it.
Unpredictability, extreme power, decent speed tier, 0 risk stallbreaker/balance breaker...
Ban
(Also this Genie in a bottle'd fit Hoopa better, js)
Unpredictability, extreme power, decent speed tier, 0 risk stallbreaker/balance breaker...
Ban
(Also this Genie in a bottle'd fit Hoopa better, js)
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Landorus is a terror to almost any style of play, as it can function as a RP sweeper, an excellent wallbreaker and a calm mind sweeper. It's ability to adapt to almost any situation makes it almost unstoppable except for it's like 2 checks. It's ability to run coverage moves (AND U-TURN!!!) to hit those checks is unhealthy.
BAN
BAN
That's another thing to think about, both of its 100% counters are weak to pursuit. If you give Landorus-I u-turn it will now be able to trap those mons, sort of invalidating them as "counters"
252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
If Latias stays in it will be 2HKOd and it can't OHKO Tyranitar back, Sand storm isn't a bad thing to pair it with either.
252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 128-152 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that Cresselia's Ice beam does 10-12 percent, and if Cresselia takes an u-turn + pursuit at (80bp) its no longer able to counter Landorus-I.
252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
If Latias stays in it will be 2HKOd and it can't OHKO Tyranitar back, Sand storm isn't a bad thing to pair it with either.
252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 128-152 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that Cresselia's Ice beam does 10-12 percent, and if Cresselia takes an u-turn + pursuit at (80bp) its no longer able to counter Landorus-I.
All this is is just team support. That doesn't mean they are not checks/counters. You are basically saying that latios or latias or anything else weak to pursuit can not be a counter/check to any pokemon because they can be pursuit trapped.
The same goes for the "choose your check/counter" argument. Team support shouldn't be used when discussing pokemon's checks and counters.
No what it means is that the 100% counters are easily taken care of, therefore the it's easier for the Lando-I player to do his job than the other player to handle Lando-I. Supporting Lando-I is far more easy than preparing for it, and that's what is meant by team support-clash, the Lando-I user has the upper hand from the start.
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