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I'd like to agree with the above posters in that CAP20 needs some good coverage/movepool options on the CM set to prevent the CM set being overshadowed by the DD set, which is why I'd like to suggest Future Sight as a possible coverage option on CAP20. Future Sight has the great advantage of not directly dealing with our universal threatlist or the CM specific threats that we should aim to keep, but it also prevents these threats from setting up on CAP20 - while it is true that CAP20 should be forced out by Keldeo, Breloom, and other threats to the CM set, this should not turn CAP20 into set-up bait for SubCM Keldeo, and Future Sight would give us a good coverage option on the CM+3 Attacks Set, although it is unlikely to find its way onto the Defensive CM set or the Cro-CM set, if these sets are implemented.
0 SpA Empoleon (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 116-138 (33 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Empoleon (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 174-206 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Empoleon (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Empoleon (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Empoleon (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 250-296 (95.7 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
future sight is a very bad move mechanically, and these calcs are extremely underwhelming.
friendly reminder please actually perform calcs before suggesting a move.
At any rate, given the direction of the thread thus far, I believe the following coverage moves should be approved on their representative movesets:
Wild Charge
Ice Punch / Icicle Crash Freeze-Dry
The following moves are currently Controversial, in my opinion, and will likely have to go to voting:
Knock Off
Taunt
Substitute
I think the following moves should just be flat out declined: Play Rough
Blaze Kick
Heavy Slam
Seed Bomb
I believe the following moves require more discussion in the twilight hours of this thread:
Megahorn
Crabhammer
Drill Peck
Freeze-Dry
In addition to all of this, some variation of the Cro set should be added to the movesets OP, as it is a viable (if inferior) set for Calm Mind that will inevitably see usage. Stallbreaker, on the other hand, should be listed as a controversial moveset, as its existence is reliant upon Taunt.
Here are my curtent opinons on the moves nyttyn asked us to talk about, I'm posting this on my phone so it might look like garbage
Megahorn:
Personally, I/'m fine with Megahorn, since apart from Slowbro (Which we really shouldn't worry about to much anyways with Wild Charge) we are really only hitting mons that would be beneficial to take out, such as Serperior and Starmie (We already beat the later, but recoil is still pretty nasty) and for the most part doesn't mess with our counters list much, Allow Megahorn
Drill Peck:
Can we please not, this just messes with to much shit, the Dd set. should not be dealing with stuff like Amoongus and Chesnaught so easily, and we already deal with Keldeo with Wild Charge , Disallow Drill Peck
Firstly, how is Wild Charge not a controversial move when when a good number of people, me included, think it's a bad idea on this CAP?
Secondly, we've had close to no discussion on Substitute at all, and though we have discussed it on IRC a bit, I really think we need more discussion on it in the actual thread so that people can from an opinion on it before moving to polls. Now personally, I think we should give it to the CAP, since it doesn't really let the DD set beat something it can't beat, or at least not to an unhealthy extent. I guess it helps a little vs Slowbro if it runs Leftovers since that means it can dodge Paralysis, but it can't actually beat it unless it also runs recovery, in which case it's running monoattacking (and Recover+DD beats Slowbro anyway and is a much more attractive set than Sub DD in general, so people will just run that unless we force 3 move coverage which is what we've been trying to do on this CAP). And on the other hand, Sub helps CM beat Ferrothorn which is good and is something we want. And yes, you can argue that Sub helps DD handle Ferrothorn since not all of them run Power Whip, but once again, we've been trying to force 3-move coverage, and Recover sets still beat Ferrothorn, though a bit less well (unless it's Thunder Wave Ferrothorn which runs Power Whip anyway).
I don't like Megahorn on this CAP. Though it does help vs Mega Gyarados, it just isn't common enough a Pokemon to justify running for it. It also hits Latis Celebi I guess, but Iron Head does fine against it too. But it also hits Slowbro, which Ireally don't want as I've said before I don't want. But I guess if we're running Wild Charge that really doesn't matter, in which case I seriosuly doubt anyone would run Megahorn on it anyway, given how innacurate it is and how limited the range of Pokemon it hits.
Crabhammer should only be allowed if, at +1, it gets enough necessary KOs to justify its usage. So, a few relevant calcs :
252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 250-294 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 285-335 (95.9 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 227-269 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 231-274 (82.2 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 187-220 (66.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 265-313 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 212-251 (78.2 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 274-325 (91 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And that's all I could really find. On the other hand you have stuff like this :
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 177-211 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 160-188 (37.8 - 44.4%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb CAP Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-152 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and more damage to defneisve mons like Quagsire in general, which we generally want to avoid.
I think I'd say no to Crabhammer in general, simply becuase we want to force a Life Orb on this CAP, as opposed to Leftovers which can give it the ability to beat things it should lose to, and Crabhammer gives the CAP enough power to afford being able to run Leftovers, unlike Waterfall which pretty much needs Life Orb to sweep. Examples :
+1 252+ Atk CAP Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 252-297 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk CAP Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 201-237 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Gyarados Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 308-366 (96.5 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 248-294 (77.7 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
etc etc you get the idea.
Finally, I support Drill Peck, simply becuase it helps for things DD is supposed to be able to beat (Keldeo, Lopunny, Venusaur, Serperior, Chesnaught, Conkeldurr, Breloom, Heracross) and afaik doesn't overlap with CM in what it beats, so I don't find it detrimental to the concept.
Alright guys, consider this the 48 hour warning.
We've seen lots of good discussion over the past week and I'm happy to see that. Sorry I've been a little slow with the decision making.
For the time being, DD + 3 Attacks is approved, as is CM + 2 Attacks. We still need discussion on whether Taunt and Substitute should be allowed, which would grant us the ability to run stallbreaker sets.
Be sure to refer to nyttyn's list on post #51 if you don't know what to discuss. Carry on and I'll cya in 48 hours.
EDIT: Ok after reading the above 3 posts let me give my views on some of what's on the table:
Wild Charge: Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to our counters list, bulky Water-types are things that we want to threaten in general, not just on the CM set. If that's accurate, Wild Charge is necessary because it can hit Water-types and does not mess too much with what we want DD to lose to, such as Rotom-W and Quagsire.
Substitute: Most of the discussions on IRC have been about how we SHOULD allow Substitute. I see no problems with it; it helps us stallbreak to a degree without screwing too much with our checks and counters unlike Taunt.
Megahorn: The move helps us against Latios and Latias as well as (on second thought, Iron Head is just fine against them) certain bulky waters such as Slowbro. If Wild Charge is determined to be anti-concept by virtue of smashing the vast majority of the Water-types we supposedly want to beat DD, Megahorn may be an alternate route.
Drill Peck: Referring back to previous discussions, iirc we don't want Fighting- and Grass-types to directly counter us- we simply want them to check us. If we are to go by that, Drill Peck is fine; nonetheless, I'll need to see some arguments for whether we want Fighting- and Grass-types to counter us or not, and why.
I feel like Freeze-Dry makes the CM set way too good. It allows it to beat so many of it's checks and counters without taking up 2 move slots. I'm not saying that it shouldn't get Ice coverage, I just think that Freeze-Dry is just not the move it should have. So I'm gonna propose Signal Beam and Energy Ball. These 2 moves do help beat it's usual checks and counters but it doesn't just beat them most of them in one move slot. I'd also like to propose that we include some neutral coverage like Hyper Voice which would also allow CAP 20 to hit through Substitutes if it really wanted to.
Speaking of which, Substitute should be allowed as it won't be the defining factor of making up 'broken'; the coverage we give it will define that. This moves does make it easier to set up on mor balanced/stall based teams, but it's not that defining of a move like Taunt, where it just shut downs way too many Pokemon.
So referring to previous posts, Megahorn allows CAP 20 to 2HKO Mega Slowbro at +1, which would make Slowbro not a check to CAP 20 at all, but with Wild Charge, CAP 20 has to take recoil in order to break through it, which makes it a check again, so Megahorn should not be allowed as it completely removes Slowbro as a check and it makes revenge killing CAP 20 after a single dd incredibly difficult if it's only taking 10% recoil per hit due to Life Orb. I honestly don't think DrillPeck should be allowed either tbh. I feel like this has the 'Freeze-Dry effect' for the CM set; it allows CAP 20 to plow through a lot of it's checks with ease after a DD, making it incredibly hard to combat after a single boost. Return/Frustration makes for great coverage on the DD set and doesn't just outright kill a lot of its checks.
(+1 252 Atk Life Orb CAP 20 Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 209-247 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
I would still like to be able to potentially switch into a +1 attack from CAP 20 with my Keldeo if it decides to not use Wild Charge, which would make it a check still and not have it be able to just rip through everything at +1
Just a fast thought:
we've discussed a lot during the stats limits part and the stats submission part about the number of HP, one of the reason of 103 base stats was the possibility to set a 101 HP substitute, and it was suggested by many, so why are there now people against it if the idea was already around since the beginning?
I know we weren't supposed to discuss move earlier, but it looked like we all agreed on that
Freeze Dry itself allows cap to push through a lot of things once it gets a boost, but without that boost it really is not that much more impressive against our threatlist over any other ice move. Sure it does free up an extra slot for recovery or coverage. But really all it avails to us is a easier ko on manaphy when it comes to checks, as it hits grass, ground, and dragons less hard then ice beam would. And really only gives us more power against bulky water types that we would want to beat anyway, so I don't see why it make the calm mind set way to good.
Overall I'm really for freeze dry as it helps the calm mind set more safely set up on water types and not have to worry so much on 4 mss.
Signal Beam I personally don't get, as it is really not that much more useful at beating our counters then our stabs and let's say ice beam Lati@s are weak to signal beam but there also weak to ice beam and ice beam has much better coverage and damage. Metagross and jirachi are neutral to signal beam, but they are also neutral to scald and scald has stab and a burn chance. Really signal beam seems uncompetitive to me.
Energy Ball if we do not get freeze dry then this move would be great. It really rounds off the calm mind sets coverage and let's the cap beat a lot of the bulky water types.
Just in case people missed it, nyttyn has been convinced by a substantial chorus of voices that Freeze Dry would be insanely good on the CM set. It would beat the sorts of things Taunt was beating while ALSO being an attack. If Taunt is already debatable, then Freeze Dry is not allowable period.
Therefore Freeze Dry is being moved on his list, at least, not Snobalt's (which is the important one), to disallowed.
Just in case people missed it, nyttyn has been convinced by a substantial chorus of voices that Freeze Dry would be insanely good on the CM set. It would beat the sorts of things Taunt was beating while ALSO being an attack. If Taunt is already debatable, then Freeze Dry is not allowable period.
Therefore Freeze Dry is being moved on his list, at least, not Snobalt's (which is the important one), to disallowed.
Don't worry, I'm going to disallow it on my list too. After a long discussion with the guys in the CAP room on Showdown yesterday, we decided its coverage would be far too insane on the set.
Just in case people missed it, nyttyn has been convinced by a substantial chorus of voices that Freeze Dry would be insanely good on the CM set. It would beat the sorts of things Taunt was beating while ALSO being an attack. If Taunt is already debatable, then Freeze Dry is not allowable period.
Therefore Freeze Dry is being moved on his list, at least, not Snobalt's (which is the important one), to disallowed.
Allow Megahorn
Really no point in not having Megahorn. It's accuracy is horrid, Bug isn't particularly spammable, and there's no coverage move we could possible give it that would be worse than Megahorn. Just don't be surprised if most of the movepool submissions don't include it because it is just that unplayable.
Disallow Crabhammer
Waterfall is already insanely spammable. Crabhammer is too much. This really comes down to the same way I feel about Knock Off. Even if the opponent takes a not-very-effective hit from the Hammer, it still does enough of a substantial chunk of damage that it's never a bad move to use. This is problematic, becuase then we might fall into SD Talonflame set, where the DD set uses all of the Calm Mind sets nice assets because Crabhammer is all it needs as an attack move. I think especially if we intend for CAP to have any recovery, Crabhammer has to go.
Allow Freeze-Dry
The things that counter the Calm Mind set don't counter the Calm Mind set because of coverage. From the beginning, we decided that the advantage that DD would have over CM is the better speed. The counters to the CM set are things that outspeed us. The things that counter DD are supposed to lose to CM by virtue of hitting harder after multiple boosts. Simply put, if Freeze-Dry changes something that counters us into something that doesn't counter us, that wasn't supposed to be countering us in the first place. If Calm Mind doesn't hit monsters hard, doesn't outspeed anything, and doesn't have good stats, what's the point of running a CM set.
No opinion about Drill Peck. On one hand, it's pretty awful and is strictly worse than Zen Headbutt for what we're trying to do. On the other hand, at least it does hit Conk and it isn't as unusable as Bounce.
I think one thing we really need to remember with this new movepool process is that we are discussing movesets, not moves. Simply stating that a move wouldn't be harmful does not mean anything. Either it has a place on a set we want or it doesn't. I feel like a lot of the arguments recently have depended too much on us accepting that something is fine if it is not going to screw things up, without actually giving any real reason to have the move in the first place. I think the biggest culprit of this right now is Freeze-Dry, as people are talking far too much about it as an option, without really focusing on why it should be part of a set in the first place, or what that set would be. However, this really applies to most instances of people talking about allowing individual moves in isolation.
Personally, I think Freeze-Dry does too much in one move for a CM set that really doesn't even need coverage to begin with. Similarly, I don't really see any place on a DD set for Drill Peck or Megahorn. Both give very unnecessary coverage, hitting a small number of things we don't really want to hit in the first place, without providing anything else that the other options discussed don't already cover decently enough.
Disallow Crabhammer
Waterfall is already insanely spammable. Crabhammer is too much. This really comes down to the same way I feel about Knock Off. Even if the opponent takes a not-very-effective hit from the Hammer, it still does enough of a substantial chunk of damage that it's never a bad move to use. This is problematic, becuase then we might fall into SD Talonflame set, where the DD set uses all of the Calm Mind sets nice assets because Crabhammer is all it needs as an attack move. I think especially if we intend for CAP to have any recovery, Crabhammer has to go.
Y'know its kinda funny you say Crabhammer is too spammable for this CAP. If anything, Waterfall is more spammable solely on the principle that if you use Crabhammer, there's a 10% chance that whatever is coming in either comes in for free or gets a free turn if it stays in the the CAP users misses. Also, Waterfall can be fired off with almost zero opportunity cost thanks to its perfect accuracy. Hell, look at the calcs its not even that much more and doesn't mess with out counters.
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 77-91 (25.4 - 30%) -- 97.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 62-73 (20.4 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yeah pretty big difference especially considering if you're spamming Waterfall you're likely to get a flinch and if you're spamming Crabhammer you're likely to miss.
252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 88-104 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 70-83 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 118-140 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 95-112 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 162-192 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 130-154 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally the only things it changes are some things like Raikou after Stealth Rock damage.
Also it's amusing that you're saying its too spammable when you're saying that Megahorn only has 5 less accuracy.
Allow Crabhammer I'm banking on you wh0sy0urdaddy :)
alright before the 48 hours are up, last minute notes:
there has been literally no talk about taunt or substitute outside of queenofluvdsic's post. Please shift all remaining focus to discussion on these two moves and how they operate within the context of the Dragon Dance and Calm Mind sets. If there is not enough discussion, or we cannot reach a intelligent consensus on these two moves, they will likely have to go to a vote.
also please do not last minute propose irrelevant moves like Return, thank you.
Taunt seems insanely broken, and also creates viability for other sets, crates room for variation within our current CM / DD sets. I'm totally against it
My suggested set specifically included Substitute, so I'm for it. That said, there is a problematic aspect, as SubDD a la gyarados to force Rotom-w to whiff on a sub, use bulk and sub to DD multiple times. That said, tox+burn immunity removes much of the need for a sub, so it's not entirely certain that we'll see SubDD except as a way to tell rotom-w to get bent (and even then, that's a 25% get bent, with the possible forcing of Leftovers instead of the preferable Life Orb).
at unun: note that percentage differences tend to get larger as more damage is done, i.e. at +1 those differences are 50% larger. that said, i don't think the spammability is the problem with Crabhammer; i don't have much of a problem with it myself, but i think nyttyn has made the solid point that we've calced and assumed and built around waterfall so far, so crabhammer sticks a wrench in all of that. so i'm mildly on the side of no crabhammer (i would like to hear more arguments for / against it ; i'd especially like to note that, as #cap has been saying, all the for arguments are 'why not' when they really ought to be 'here's why').
Taunt is the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. Substitute is not very compatible with Life Orb, so SubDD exists purely to shore up defenses. The thing is, lets say Rotom-W does come in on a switch. If you Sub, you can chip damage it and eat some recoil to lose your Sub to Volt Switch, or you can DD, which you could have done on the switch anyway and be in a better position to KO instead of, assuming LO, ending up 45% down between Sub and two LO attacks. You could use Sub with Leftovers, yes, but then you lose most of your +1 KO potential.
Which brings us back to Taunt. Taunt CM is the real scary set, given how it prevents stall from even healing off damage and prevents CAP from being phazed as well. Taunt has the most interactions with our C+C list, too many I would argue. I would rather see CM CAP defeat most of those opponents with Substitute, Dragon Tail, or Roar rather than being able to nullify all non-attacking moves.
Still backing Megahorn as an option on DD sets. Mega Slowbro is competition for the CM Set. Not only does Megahorn neutralize it, it has a sparse general effect (but not unnoticeable) on out checks and counters list, and provides a third move that has effective 120 BP along with STAB Waterfall/Iron Head.
Argh, sorry for overshooting by 27 hours; nyttyn was being a john on a plane. Here's the verdict:
After speaking with nyttyn, Crabhammer will be excluded. Its power boost lets this CAP beat what we want it to lose to. Wild Charge will be included. We want the DD set to deal with Water-types as well; not only the CM set should beat them. Moreover, it forces CAP 20 to take recoil damage and does not mess with our C&Cs too much. Megahorn will be allowed, but not auto-included. Aside from hitting Slowbro, it's really a niche move and will only become OO material once we get to the submission phase.
The poll will consist of the following 4 moves: Taunt
Substitute
Drill Peck
Knock Off
This will decide whether these moves become part of our movepool or not.
Can we please get the movesets in the first post updated with full bullet lists of descriptive information?
Right now, it's just moves, ability, etc. The entire point of this thread is to have a skeleton analysis of all the competitive sets that we intend to use for this CAP in the playtest. Those writeups will be going onsite as soon as the playtest begins.
I realize the writeups will need to be tweaked depending on the outcome of the polls. But we really need to have the basic writing in place before we conclude this thread. Moveset submissions earlier in the thread all had lots of bullets and descriptions. The later discussions and calcs posted were all good too. Let's pull it all together and get a skeleton analysis put together for this mon.
Can we please get the movesets in the first post updated with full bullet lists of descriptive information?
Right now, it's just moves, ability, etc. The entire point of this thread is to have a skeleton analysis of all the competitive sets that we intend to use for this CAP in the playtest. Those writeups will be going onsite as soon as the playtest begins.
I realize the writeups will need to be tweaked depending on the outcome of the polls. But we really need to have the basic writing in place before we conclude this thread. Moveset submissions earlier in the thread all had lots of bullets and descriptions. The later discussions and calcs posted were all good too. Let's pull it all together and get a skeleton analysis put together for this mon.
for the record I'm singing off on everything that's been written off so far. My apologies about the delay on my post, it's been a bad/busy week.
anyway here's a example quick skeleton
CAP20 skeleton analysis
A dangerous set-up sweeper that, while not the top of its field in either category, can perform either a quick Dragon Dance sweep or a prolonged Calm Mind sweep.
Water/Steel typing provides a plethora of setup opportunities, aided by both Water Veil and Heatproof
Somewhat lackluster without the ability to setup
Best on teams that can provide it the support it requires.
Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Name: Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Iron Head
Move 3: Iron Head / Icicle Crash / Ice Punch
Move 4: Wild Charge
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb
Because of CAP 20’s Steel/Water typing and Water Viel ability, it is able to set up Dragon Dances on a plethora of common mons, such as Clefable and Mega Sableye.
Dragon Dance allows it to outspeed the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier, Landorus-T.
Waterfall and Iron Head are your main forms of stab, allowing you to deal with bulky ground types as well as pesky fairies like Unaware Clefable who are 2HK0’d despite ignoring your boosts.
Ice coverage gives this CAP perfect neutral coverage alongside Wild Charge and hits Landorus-T harder than Waterfall does
Wild Charge rounds out CAP20's coverage, giving it neutral coverage on most of the metgame, barring a few exceptions such as Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Wild Charge lets CAP20 OHKO Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo at +1, and heavily damages foes such as Mega Slowbro, Suicune, and Skarmory, allowing CAP20 to sweep past them if they have been sufficiently weakened. Keep in mind that Life Orb recoil piles up quickly alongside Wild Charge recoil.
Partners that can provide entry hazards are greatly appreciated.
Best used to clean up heavily weakened teams or teams full of frail members.
Calm Mind
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Refresh
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers
Calm Mind is required
Scald is primary STAB move
Recover heals off damage taken
Last move is filler. Flash Cannon allows CAP to beat stuff such as Clefable and Altaria and Refresh allows it to heal off status, primarily paralysis and burn.
EVs and item are self explanatory, while the second EV spread ensures Timid Heatran does not 2HKO with Earth Power when the CAP is at +1
Scald allows CAP20 to still be useful before it sets up, by coming in and burning would-be switchins throughout the match.
Best used to demolish defensive teams when checks/counters are either heavily weakened or taken out of the picture.
If anyone wishes to expand on this, please feel free to reply, otherwise we should try to get this wrapped up.
I know I said i'd post earlier, but I just didn't have the time. Guess that makes me Mr Liar.
DougJustDoug said he wanted to comment on this (I believe). Thank you all for your patience in this new part of the process. We will continue normally soon enough!
We are good here. I do not have anything to add to this. I just wanted to make sure we got a skeleton analysis in place before closing the thread. That's done, so lets move on to the poll and get full movepool submissions going after that!
