Do Not Ban Landorus! I know it's not the popular opinion please don't kill me
I decided to wait until after I made suspects to discuss Landorus, and today, I'm glad to say, I finally did it.
I made Suspect Requirements! The last one I needed for the badge, too!
Disclaimer: I have a lot to say. If you don't want to read it all, look for the too long to read (tl;tr) at the end of the post.
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Non-Landorus OU Metagame Comments:
There wasn't much variance between the Landorus metagame and a Landorus metagame without, except that stall was perhaps seen a bit more than usual (but it's used frequently even with Landorus?). People assumed Tornadus-T was a pokemon only useful for Landorus, so it dropped in usage and, oddly, I saw a few more Serperior roaming around (the normal, anyway) - which was quite funny, seeing as one of my personal teams was still carrying the Tornadus-T (I hadn't even added it for Landorus - the check was a bonus).
I still saw a few M-Latias teams, so I don't think players using them feel obligated to for Landorus's sake, and yes, I still saw Cresselia and Gothitelle on opposing stall teams, too.
The only variance I saw was a lack of offensive teams (tho I ran one alongside some other teams to make my req.).
I think the lack of variance actually shows that Landorus's impact is not one that is strong enough to warrant a ban.
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Landorus's Teambuilding Impact / Check n Counters
Let me start by saying: I am not a stall player. I only have experiences facing them, so I know how they play and general builds, but am not a player that has to teambuild them, and as such, will be a hard player to sympathize in these regards.
So, the argument is that Landorus is a strain on teambuilding, except I fail to see this at all.
There's an argument floating around this thread, one that's saying "OMG Landorus so broke IT HAS LIKE NO COUNTERS please ban!" and, if this were a previous generation, that argument would be solid.
However, this metagame is one where something doesn't need counters to be "broken" (and I use "broken" as a word to describe "presence which is unhealthy for the metagame" since, come on, we don't
care if it's broken - we'll ban it anyway).
As far as Landorus goes on balance, it has a decent number of checks. Tornadus-T, Azumaril, Keldeo, Serperior, Rotom-W, Scizor, SDef Zapdos, Bulky Starmie, Talonflame, Latias, Latios, MCharizard-Y, MCharizardX, etc., etc.
OK, so some of you are typing your
But these pokemon can't switch into Landorus! or
They can't even achieve a OHKO! or something along those lines.
See, I'm an offensive player at heart. Checks have loose terms to me. A check is anything that can KO at 75%+, can switch into a common move or so, or can revenge kill it. I am not saying this is THE defintion for checks, only that it is mine.
I am NOT saying a player needs to rely soley on one check to beat Landorus or implying that one check is enough.
What I'm saying is that checks are so multiple on balance and can easily fit in groups of pairs to make 2-3 checks, and these checks aren't ONLY being use for Landorus, and they will continue to see usage even if Landorus is banned. Landorus isn't restricting balance teambuilding, rather, it's just another threat it has to deal with. Much like Manaphy or Kyurem-B in these regards. Actually, I'd say Kyurem-B is a bigger threat to balance; it breaks the common Rotom-W + Landorus-T + Heatran core with ease, has about-above-ish average speed, and is relatively hard to switch into. I understand that Kyu is not as great as Landorus since Landorus accomplishes a lot more and has more versatility, but for balance in particular, Landorus is not the only threat of its caliber.
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Meanwhile, on offensive teams, Landorus is a joke. In terms of combating these teams, Landorus's speed is mediocre on a good day. With threats like Sand Rush LO Excadrill, Talonflame, Thundurus, Keldeo, Serperior, Latios, Latias, Mega Manectric, LO Starmie, Weavile, Bisharp (Sucker Punch), Gengar, etc., etc., offense can easily stop it.
As for this legendary Rock Polish set, it needs a lot of hazards to achieve OHKOs, and quite often, it cannot achieve such KOs. It'd have to set up on an offensive team really late in the game to clean up, because otherwise, there's probably a threat that's going to take Earth Power for 80%+ and retaliate with a OHKO.
And offfense isn't fragile balance / stall. It doesn't care if it has to take 80% to stop Landorus. Offense is all about sacking anyway and, in terms of offense, there are many other Pokemon that are like Landorus in this regard and this playstyle has already adjusted to combat situations such as this.
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Now, the REAL argument is that Landorus breaks stall teams too easily. As a user who has used CM Landorus, I can see why stall would not appreciate fighting Landorus, especially as the match progresses.
I have not played stall enough to know whether or not it's truly restricted by this thing, but I can say this: I've lost to stall teams with CM Landorus. It's possible. Landorus isn't a KILL STALL! pokemon. Stall can play around it.
For starters, Scarf Gothitelle easily nullifies Landorus. In fact, Gothitelle can switch into an Earth Power, live, and cripple it with a Choice Scarf, rendering Landorus useless for the remainder of the match. Now, Gothitelle isn't a pokemon that is used solely to beat Landorus or is nonviable or whatever the crap argument is it has going against Latias / Cresselia (which I'll get to later) but rather, used to combat opposing stall.
And let's be real here: what stall team is running Landorus? Gothitelle is virtually useless against the type of teams Landorus is run on anyway, so sacking Gothitelle to cripple Landorus isn't a statement that Landorus is broken or something that would effect the chances of the stall player's chance of winning in the regards that it's going to need Goth later to win; it won't. Goth's role is to trap and cripple / KO threats to the team; it cripples Landorus, henceforth doing its job superbly.
As for Latias and Cresselia: the pursuit argument is garbage. Landorus isn't trapping its counters with pursuit; therefore, it is not a viable argument to pose. I didn't like that argument in BW2 and I don't like now.
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Landorus Sets
Landorus does not have 4MMS. LEARN WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS PLEASE. But people take the whole
It has so much move coverage! way out of proportion. Sure, it can hit Tornadus-T with Rock Slide, but my Tornadus-T can hit Diancie with Iron Tail guess that means Diancie doesn't count as a CHECK or anything.
Oh wait. Right.
Landorus might have an obscure move or so that can combat common counters / checks / whatever, like Rock Slide for Talonflame / Charizard / Tornadus-T, but using this precision usually means that its other three moves cover less, meaning that the chances of it carrying this moves are minimal, and as such, you have little to no risk.
However, let's say you switch Tornadus-T in and it gets decked by Rock Slide. Oh no! What ever do you do now?
Wait. Perhaps, if Landorus is carrying Rock Slide, it probably doesn't carry the coverage move it needs to defeat one of your checks (like Sludge Wave for your Azumaril or whatever)?
"But Shurtugal, carrying multiple checks limits teambuilding and proves ban worthy-ness!"
No. This metagame is designed to revolve around checks. Counters are sparse nowadays. Checks are easy to put on team, there is simply NO strain to having checks. Take a look at your teams; you probably accidentally check a lot of threats in the metagame. Have clutch responses to certain threats; Landorus is no different.
Having the possibility to run an obscure move does not make the check / counter in question any less of a legitimate argument.
As for the Landorus sets themselves, you always know Landorus carries Earth Power, so you always have a coinflip to switch into your EQ immunity as a check (like, pretty much anything immune to EQ becomes a check if it can live a hit afterward / outspeeds and can OHKO or come close to a KO after rocks). Depending on the team's structure, you can usually deduce some of its other coverage moves, too; it's not that difficult, takes a bit of skill I suppose, but still.
I know it makes itself versatile and that adds presence, but I just feel it's highly exaggerated in an attempt to get it banned.
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CONSIDERATION FOR FUTURE SUSPECTS - How to balance the metagame and team match up problems
We need to start suspecting defensive threats.
If Landorus gets banned, it's going to make Balance / Stall the primary force of the metagame, and those teams are so mindless as it is. I don't think this is healthy at all.
However, Landorus getting banned would prove something: it doesn't need to be typically
broken to be banned. Landorus has answers to itself, and most playstyles (balance, offense) don't have much difficulty beating it; just stall.
Take Mega Sableye. By itself, sure, it has clear counters and what not. But the thing about defensive threats is that they are designed to work with defensive partners to make a team incapabale of being brought down.
I think it is reasonable to suspect a defensive threat under the premise that
It creates defensive cores practically impossible to destroy. Like how Landorus was banned last generation for Tyrantiar + Keldeo + Landorus covering most of the metagame; M-Sableye, Chansey, Skarmory (or whatever, this is a filler example not to be taken literally) covers a majority of the metagame.
We think that a suspect has to have an offensive presence, but I'm saying that a defensive presence is just as intimidating, and we should try taking them more seriously. By suspecting some defensive threats, we might build a metagame balanced of both Balance / Stall strategies and Offensive strategies. If we continue to only ban offensive threats, than of course the metagame is going to be favoring Balance / Stall strategies; we're designing it to do so this way!
Equilibrium can only be achieved after BOTH offensive / defensive meet at the same point. By suspecting only offensive threats, our metagame cannot achieve equilibrium.
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Too Long To Read?
1.| No-Landorus-OU made balance and stall slightly used more, but not much variance apart from a limited amount of offensive teams (and I saw a few on my run).
2.| Landorus has a lot of checks that are easily applicable to balance and offensive teams alike. Stall can cripple with Gothitelle and being pursuit weak doesn't make these checks or counters any less of a check or counter; just that the player needs to be more skillful.
3.| Just because Landorus can run Rock Slidge or whatever to hit a stray counter or check doesn't make the counter or check any less of a counter or check; and usually, if it forgoes a coverage move to hit that one check or counter, it lacks the movepool to stop another check or threat your team posses, and due to how many checks are in the metagame, this is a likely scenario.
4.| Equilibrium can only be achieved after BOTH offensive / defensive meet at the same point. By suspecting only offensive threats, our metagame cannot achieve equilibrium.
