Project PU: Survival of the Fittest

[MZ]

OP stolen from Dell and approved by same
Art by Bummer

Hello guys! This thread is designed to function as an interactive project that intends to have two teams matched up against each other. Your task is to try to figure out in detail which team has a better chance of winning.

This project will also have a BOTW aspect to it, in that after each week of discussion for each round, two players will be selected to battle each other using one of the two teams. You're allowed to choose which player you would like to see battle in this thread and which team you would like them to use, but that post must have other relevant content for the project or otherwise the vote is considered void, and the post will be deleted. Battles will be showcased on the thread, with an explanation of how the battle turned out and a review of the most convincing arguments for each round (and how they're related to the battle).

To get a sense of the kind of posts I'd like to see, just picture yourself commentating on a competitive match between two sides. This thread is primarily a thinking exercise, designed to help you understand how to think about and address concepts such as team matchups, win conditions, weaknesses to opposing Pokemon/team, ease in prediction, dependency on luck factors, and much more throughout your arguments for each session. Even if you favor a certain team over the other, you're still encouraged to consider the chances the opponent has of winning, and describe what they should do to accomplish a victory on their part.
Please do not bandwagon posts. Unless you have new or different experiences to share, you are defending a team that's considered unfavorable by the rest of the debaters, or if there hasn't been a post for a while, try to avoid restating the same information and arguments brought up by someone else unless you're adding something substantive to the discussion.

If you have a team that you'd like considered, be sure to contact me and we'll decide whether it's competent enough to be up in the following round. This is to ensure that we can maintain good battles and discussions.

Once the teams have been discussed enough and I feel that the debate is over, two players will be selected to use the teams, the replays will be posted, and new teams will be selected. There will be no routine due to the difference in team matchups each week.

 

[MZ]

Without further ado, let's start off Round 1 with one new sample and one hopeful sample

Team 1 -- made by Raiza.

team

Armaldo @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Zweilous @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Crunch
- Head Smash
- Sleep Talk

Jumpluff
Ability: Infiltrator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Acrobatics

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Circle Throw
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Regice @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

Mr. Mime @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Healing Wish
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

Team 2 -- made by Kushalos

team

Venipede @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Endeavor
- Protect

Golem @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def / 16 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Poliwrath @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 80 Def / 24 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Disable

Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard
- Volt Switch
- Trick

also stolen from Dell's original version

Some questions to think about:

1. Who has overall lead advantage? What plausible options are there for both teams to lead out to? What potential lead decisions should each team watch out for?

2. Which Pokemon for each team have the best opportunities to make an impact throughout the match? In what ways does each team have of dealing with each other's biggest threats? How can they maximize the effectiveness of them? What amount of opportunity cost would come from dealing with said threat?

3. Which Pokemon are the most underwhelming threats in this match up? What reasons lead to that being the case? How can they go about making the aforementioned Pokemon at least remotely effective throughout the match without essentially leaving it as death fodder? Are they liabilities (in that they can't break through the opposing team or leave the opposing team too much room to setup)?

4. How much prediction is required to be effective (this question is especially directed at the disadvantaged team, but you can also describe in general)? Are said predictions the only reliable responses they have of coming out on top? Is there a notable amount of opportunity cost that comes from choosing to predict?

5. Which team has the better chance of winning? In what ways is it threatening to the opposing team (does it wall the opposing team effectively, or does the opposing team have difficulty withstanding the offensive powerhouses)? What does the disadvantaged team have to do in other to maximize their chances of coming out on top?

 

[Nayr1230]

Someone was talking about this in the PU chat, and I'm glad to see it's come back. I wanted to give it a shot and try my best.

1. Who has overall lead advantage? What plausible options are there for both teams to lead out to? What potential lead decisions should each team watch out for?

Potential leads for Team 1 are Armaldo and Poliwrath. Armaldo is an option because Team 2 does not have hazard removal of any kind, and the longer the battle goes the more important the chip damage from Rocks will be. Armaldo also can break Venipede's Sash and spin T-/Spikes away, and can hit Golem decently hard with EQ, but needs to watch out for Rotom-F and Pawniard, because Pawniard can 2HKO with Iron Head-Sucker Punch and Rotom-F can completely cripple it with Trick making it a liability. Poliwrath is a decent defensive lead for this team, Circle Throwing Venipede out and making it's Sash useless before it can set up, hitting Golem hard with both Scald and Circle throw, resisting both of Pawniard's STABs. This Poliwrath really struggles with Gourgeist and Rotom-F, Poliwrath does nothing to Gourgeist and needs to switch and letting it set up and Rotom-F can Volt Switch out to something else and hit Poliwrath pretty hard.

Potential leads for Team 2 are Venipede, Golem, and Rotom-F. Without a Ghost-type and Priority, Venipede can set up two layers of hazards or one layer and severely cripple something with Endeavor to be KO'd later by Pawniard's Sucker Punch. Custap Golem is also a good option, because Rocks are always important but in the case of Team 1 hits Armaldo, Jumpluff, and Regice for 25% making it important for Armaldo to be alive to remove hazards later. Golem also gets a free Explosion once it's in Custap range, because as mentioned before Team 1 has no Ghosts and Explosion will hit something incredibly hard no matter what. Rotom-F is a good scouting option, and can Volt Switch out for free without fear of a Ground-type blocking it if it's in a bad match-up, and can also Trick it's Scarf onto something to cripple it throughout the game.

Overall lead advantage I'd say goes to Team 2. They have have a diverse mix of lead options that all do something great for the team, whereas Team 1's options have trouble with one Team 2 lead or another.

2. Which Pokemon for each team have the best opportunities to make an impact throughout the match? In what ways does each team have of dealing with each other's biggest threats? How can they maximize the effectiveness of them? What amount of opportunity cost would come from dealing with said threat?

Team 1 is a very offensive team that needs a few key resistances removed in order for it's sweepers to steamroll. Rock Polish Regice is a huge threat to Team 2, and hits everything except Venipede super effectively. Mr. Mime deals meaningful damage and can force a lot of switches, is fast, and can bring someone back up to full with Healing Wish to recover from hazards damage. Poliwrath is a nice defensive choice that as mentioned in the previous section resists Pawniard's STABs, absorbs status from T-Spikes and can also rack up more hazards damage with Circle Throw. It is walled completely by Gourgeist, so in order for this to be effective Gourgeist must be removed. Jumpluff can sleep something on the switch and set up or can lure in Gourgeist to take the Sleep Powder and KO with Acrobatics.

Team 2 is a bit more defensive of the two teams, and relies more on causing switches and crippling threats with a combination of hazard damage and status to win. If Armaldo is removed completely, Team 1 has no option to remove hazards either, and will allow Venipede and Golem free reign to set up hazards. Golem can lure Armaldo in and potentially OHKO with Rock Blast and after set up hazard for free. Rain Dance Poliwrath hits Team 1 really hard, but needs RestTalk Poli and RP Regice dealt with before it can do that. With Spikes and Rocks up, Rain Dance Poli can OHKO Regice and 2HKO RestTalk Poli. In the Rain, Rain Dance Poli has a 93.8% chance to OHKO Mr. Mime with Hydro Pump. Rotom-F also does a good job of keeping up momentum for Team 2, as well as potentially crippling either Regice or RestTalk Poli with Trick.

3. Which Pokemon are the most underwhelming threats in this match up? What reasons lead to that being the case? How can they go about making the aforementioned Pokemon at least remotely effective throughout the match without essentially leaving it as death fodder? Are they liabilities (in that they can't break through the opposing team or leave the opposing team too much room to setup)?

For Team 1, I'd have to say Zweilous is the most underwhelming member of the team. While it hits extremely hard, it doesn't have a lot of opportunity to switch in safely to anything, has no recovery, has a high risk of missing with Hustle, and misses it's Choice Band if it gets Knocked Off by Pawniard. Sleep Talk is also taking up a move slot against Team 2, which has no ways of inflicting Sleep status. It can potentially hit something hard, but it doesn't really resist anything on Team 2 except the teams Dark, Water, and Electric moves, and provides a lot of opportunities for Team 2 to either set up more layers of hazards or set up Rain for Poli.

For Team 2, the most underwhelming member of the team is probably Gourgeist. This thing is good for walling Poliwrath, but gets slammed hard by anything else on the team. Disable does provide it with an option to force Mr. Mime and Zweilous out so it can get a free sub, and it can get some extra chip damage with Leech Seed, but it also provides an opportunity for Regice or Jumpluff to come in and set up and beat it and outright sweep through Team 2.

To maximize effectiveness of it's weaker members, Team 1 should try to use Zweilous to beat something on the switch with a Banded Outrage. Even resisted, Pawniard won't like taking a Banded Outage and can't really hurt Zweilous with Sucker Punch and has to use Iron Head. Gourgeist should be used to wall RestTalk Poli and Disable Zweilous and Mr. Mime's Choiced moves, get a free sub and try to get chip damage with Leech Seed and hazard damage.

4. How much prediction is required to be effective (this question is especially directed at the disadvantaged team, but you can also describe in general)? Are said predictions the only reliable responses they have of coming out on top? Is there a notable amount of opportunity cost that comes from choosing to predict?

Team 1 I don't think particularly cares since a lot of it's team members hit hard regardless of what switches into them. In the early game, Armaldo probably needs to predict if Gourgeist is going to come in to spinblock or Rotom-F is going to come in to try to take an Earthquake. Mr. Mime probably cares about prediction, because it doesn't want to be forced out by Pawniard coming in on a Psychic meant for Poliwrath. The end game for Team 1 is to bring Regice in safely, set up and sweep, and I think this hyper offense team hits hard and has a good chance of making sure that happens.

Team 2 is a bit more reliant on prediction, particularly predicting switches, to ensure that it also uses the right move or switches to the right mon at the right time to prevent Regice tearing it to shreds. Team 2 also really wants to set Poliwrath up so it can sweep, but really needs the chip damage from hazards and switches in order to really make it effective. The team itself has a lot of opportunities to cause this, but mostly needs to predict what Team 1 will switch into and when in order to keep up momentum so Poli can come in safely and sweep.

5. Which team has the better chance of winning? In what ways is it threatening to the opposing team (does it wall the opposing team effectively, or does the opposing team have difficulty withstanding the offensive powerhouses)? What does the disadvantaged team have to do in other to maximize their chances of coming out on top?

Team 2 I think has a better chance of winning, just because the hazards damage really stack up and Armaldo doesn't really enjoy taking chip damage from hazards each time it comes in to clear another layer. It's spins are also blocked by Gourgeist, who also does a decent job of walling it. The team really needs to make sure that Regice never has a clear way to set up though, as Regice just tears through the team, but I think with clever plays and hazard damage Team 2 has plenty of opportunities to either completely cripple it or beat it. Team 2 also has an impressive offensive presence in Rain Dance Poliwrath, which after hazards damage can OHKO Mr. Mime and has a chance to OHKO Regice, as well as outspeeding both even with Choice Scarf and a Rock Polish boost respectively

For my vote, I say TEAM 2.

 

[Dundies]

1. For Team 1, the obvious lead is Armaldo while for Team 2, the obvious lead is Venipede or Golem. I don't see Team 2 leading off with Venipede, as it straight up loses to Armaldo. Because of this, I would expect Team 1 to lead with Jumpluff predicting Team 2 to lead with Golem so in my personal opinion, Rotom-F is Team 2's best lead, as it gets a free Volt Switch on anything. As for Team 1, I would probably end up leading with Jumpluff to prevent Golem from setting up Stealth Rock and limiting Venipede to one spike. Overall, Team 2 has the lead matchup with Rotom-F.

2. A Pokemon that strikes me right away that will be a huge threat to Team 1 is Rotom-F. It comes after anything faints and basically gets off free momentum. In order to stop this, Team 1 is going to have to set up with Regice to get ahead. Regice is definitely the biggest threat to Team 2, as after a Rock Polish with a few Pokemon weakened, it clean sweeps. The problem with this is the only possible Pokemon I could see it setting up on is Rotom-F as it Volt Switches. The biggest threat to team 1 is Poliwrath though. If Poliwrath gets a chance to set up a Rain Dance (which it does freely against Armaldo) it can easily sweep through Team 1, especially with enough hazards up to beat Mr. Mime.

3. Other than checking Pawniard, Poliwrath is basically dead weight for Team 1. Gourgeist comes in on it and gets a free sub, which could easily allow it to wreck havoc on all of Team 1. Team 2's Poliwrath can freely set up a Rain Dance against it, even though it will most likely be phased out, and Rotom-F comes in after a Pokemon has fainted and gets a free Volt Switch. On the other hand, Gourgeist allows a free switch into Jumpluff for Team 1, and if they use Swords Dance as Gourgeist uses Disable or Protect, it could be problematic.

4. A possible prediction I could see to allow Team 1 to get the upper hand is if Team 1 has Jumpluff in and has already put a Pokemon to Sleep, Team 1 could double switch into Regice on a predicted switch to Rotom-F and if Rotom-F doesn't use Trick, Regice gets a free Rock Polish off and basically sweeps. The only way I could see this happening though is if Team 1 has managed to keep hazards away, which is highly unlikely.

5. As most of these hint towards, I expect Team 2 to win. Once Team 2 gets hazards up and keeps Gourgeist alive, Armaldo basically has no way of beating it. Unless Gourgeist gets extremely weakened and the prediction I stated in 4 takes place, Rotom-F will be able to slowly weaken Team 1 along with hazards and Poliwrath will be able to clean up.

btw, I look forward to seeing this battle and I hope this thread stays active

 

[MZ]

You guys don't have to reply in that whole question format, they're guidelines for things to think about when analyzing the matchup not questions we need answered.

 

[Nayr1230]

Oh, my mistake, I never saw the previous thread, but I'll remember that for next time. Like Dundies said, I hope this thread sticks around.

 

[Kingler]

meh i think it's a pretty even-ish matchup, although i'd say raiza wins this. you can just lead pluff and anti lead w/e comes in (on veni, u can just go maldo and get ur rocks up). after that, you can pivot around into cb zweil which basically gets free kills since pawniard isn't walling that thing and iron head isnt doing much lol while poliwrath is kushalos's wincon so he can't afford it taking a crunch (let alone a probable OUTRAGE). regice and pluff are also hard to maneuver around for stef's team because pawniard is overloaded as a one-time switch in to all these dudes. sure, some stuff on kushalos's team like rotom-f, golem, and rd wrath, but raiza's team can pivot around rd wrath w/ pluff and resttalk poli and golem is checked p damn well. regice obv isn't a counter to rotomf since rocks weak and no lefties but it checks it okay while raiza's team isn't DECIMATED since its a choice locked mon. could go either way obv. but i'll have to give this to team 1.

i didn't read zard's questions before posting this but i think my answer fits well enough so

 

[tmacbalanced]

I feel that Kushalos would have to find a way to get up 2 layer of spikes & stealth rocks to keep the switching to a minimum, & perhaps to get a trick off with Rotom-Frost on Poliwrath or Regice. Those layers of hazards could also be a good way to lure in Armaldo so Kushalos can sweep with Poliwrath or set up with Gourgeist-Small.

 

[innovamania]

This is definitely an interesting matchup. Both of these are offensive teams with team 2 taking a HO approach and team 1 more of a bulky offense approach. Strictly from team preview I'd say it's pretty even and like with any offense vs offense matchup it will ultimately come down to who predicts better. Looking at leads for both teams team 2 has more viable leads while team 1 only has one. For team 2 they could lead venipede to start egtting up hazzards but armaldo is a strong lead and most carry rock blast which would kill venipede even through sash. Rotom is another lead for team 2 and is sort of a middle ground lead, team 1 has no electirc immunity so if he leads with rotom he'll outspeed every mon and can get off a free volt switch into the best counter. The last possibility is golem because it has the custap berry to get up rocks and boom not meantion it beats armaldo with its rock blast. As for team armaldo is rlly the only lead because if he doesnt and venipede manages to get up toxic spikes it'll be over pretty quickly because armaldo cant beat the spinblocker of gourgeist. Looking at these teams team 1 has a few more win conditions then team 2. team 1 has not only sd jumluff which puts a real hurting on team 2s team but also lo rp regice. on the other hand team 2 has rd poliwrath and if it gets up roks and spikes then it will just sweep through team 1. The problem comes in actualy setting up, both teams have such offensive momentum that it'll be hard to set up but it'll prolly be easier for team 2 since team 1 has more bulky mons that can be set up on. Ultimately this is a pretty even matchup and I think the winner will come down to who plays better but if I had to give an advantage to someone I would say Team 2 for the reasons mentioned above