np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

[WebBowser]

WebBowser Landorus doesn't need to come in on a lot of things. Although for the record it takes advantage of a lot of common choiced users i.e. Raikou, Keldeo, etc locked into the wrong move and can get free switches from slow VoltTurners like Rotom-W and CB Scizor. Nobody is arguing it should be banned for its ability to switch into things and then threaten to KO (unlike Metagross), it's more the fact that once its in, it puts on an immense amount of pressure and often gets a kill or does serious damage. So I'm not really sure why you're focused on this aspect since nobody was asking what Greninja switches into either (granted they are very different but the fact remains that for an offensive suspect with great coverage, we are not asking it to be switching into lots of stuff). Generally Landorus wants to come in with a free switch and will proceed to do work from there. When a pokemon is doing over 100% damage (out of 600%) on average to the other team in exchange only for its own 100% HP without being a momentum killer or setup fodder (i.e. -2 SpA Latios), that is a good indication that it is better than the rest of the tier and probably broken.

Also phazing is not a reliable way to deal with Landorus at all. Yeah Hippo can take one Earth Power and Whirlwind it out but that's still a lost exchange.

Some nitpicks on your post.

1. Choiced electric types are always massive liabilities due to having an immunity on their primary STAB. Any team running a choice locked volt switcher needs to stack multiple switch ins to common ground types. Making choice locked electric types a liability is not a particularly good reason to ban something, especially when those aforementioned electric types have other perfectly viable sets. This is not overcentralization, because running a choice locked volt switcher is a conscious decision on the part of the team builder with real draw backs that have little to do with whether or not lando-i is broken (for example, most offensive teams would rather not give sand rush exca a free swap in either. In fact, I'd argue that sand rush exca is far scarier to offense then RP lando-I).

2. 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 113-133 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Even resisted hits will 2hko lando-i with even a small amount of prior damage and SR. Not to mention that if Keldeo isn't choice locked, then he outspeeds and ohkos with scald.

3. The reason why I'm pressing the swap in point is because unlike Greninja, Lando-I is incredibly easy to revenge kill. Virtually any offensive mon with >101 speed can threaten it out once it's in. Also unlike Greninja, Lando-I isn't a particularly good revenge killer, meaning that one of your primary sources of free swap ins aren't even all that reliable.

4. You do realize that if he comes in on a u-turn of any stripe, he's going to be immediately threatened out, right? Lando-I is actually a terrible swap into Scizor of any kind because he gets wrecked by bullet punch and u-turn just gives one of his many checks a free swap in (any competent team should contain at least one mon that can beat lando-i if it's given a free swap in, that's not hard to do).

So yeah, Lando-I can't revenge kill all that well, it can't really swap into even moderately powerful attacks like resisted specs secret sword, the only thing I got is slow volt turn. Congrats, you have now discovered that slow volt-turn + powerful wallbreaker is really good. This really doesn't distinguish lando-I from any other really good wallbreaker, like megagard for instence, who also tends to net a kill every time it gets a swap in.

This is not a "git gud" argument, this is saying that the assumption that lando-i gets a free switch in is a terribly flawed one. What I'm saying is that lando-i has incredibly limited switch in opportunities, like most other wallbreakers. Also like most wallbreakers, once he is in, he is very difficult to swap into because he's designed to, ya'know, break walls. If lando-I is out and anywhere near full health when you have to switch, you done goofed, and you will have to stomach a very strong attack as punishment, like any other wallbreaker.

I have not seen a single argument here for lando-I that cannot be applied to mega gard or mega chomp.

So I stand by my previous question: How is Lando-I getting in? If he cannot swap in and fire off at least one good attack without getting forced out more then twice in a given match, then there is no reason to ban this guy.

locoghoul I appreciate the sentiment friend, but I'm afraid I cannot take your advice for a couple of reasons.

1. I'm a far better debater then I am a battler. I feel that my efforts will be better spent here convincing a few people that the pro-ban arguments are flawed/incomplete then actually trying to grind out for reqs.

2. Even if I wanted to grind for reqs, IRL issues prevent me from doing so at this time. So I won't be able to vote during this suspect.

 

[Norne]

Regarding Aero as a check, this guy has good anti meta properties, however it's a shaky check to Lando I, as a SR weakness paired with the possibility of HP ice/rock slide make him doubt the switch in without previous scouting. Not to mention the cost opportunity involved on mAero teams as it tends to require several ev tweaks depending on what you target, wich require him to stay alive midgame to pull some tricores together.

It's not as easy as you make it sound.

 

[jpw234]

Kinda interested in what WebBowser posted so I'm scrollin through the viability thread and Lando can switch in on:

Anything from Clefable barring Ice Beam although Knock Off is annoying
Bisharp Sucker Punch
Chomp Rocks/EQ/Fire Blast
Heatran most things although Plume burns and stronger offensive moves hurt
Land-T EQ/U-Turn/Rocks
Manaphy not Scald/Ice Beam altho you don't OHKO, but if Mana is weakened you can come in on predicted Tail Glow/coverage
Sableye anything but WoW/Knock Off are annoying
Exca (not in sand) EQ/SD/Rapid Spin
Ferro anything but Leech/Knock Off are annoying
Gliscor anything
Hippo anything
Rotom-W predicted Volt Switch (probably not worth it though)
Slowbro not a water/ice move
Venu not Giga Drain
Celebi anything
Jirachi just about anything except Body Slam
Klefki anything
SpecsKou electric attack

Eh that's just going through the A ranks, you can also obviously double it in/come in after a kill, and this list very much increases if you are willing for Lando to take a big hit that doesn't OHKO (because then he can come in on TTar, most Scizor etc.) or some annoying status (then you get Sableye, Toxic Chomp, WoW Gar etc.).

 

[bludz]

Some nitpicks on your post.

1. Choiced electric types are always massive liabilities due to having an immunity on their primary STAB. Any team running a choice locked volt switcher needs to stack multiple switch ins to common ground types. Making choice locked electric types a liability is not a particularly good reason to ban something, especially when those aforementioned electric types have other perfectly viable sets. This is not overcentralization, because running a choice locked volt switcher is a conscious decision on the part of the team builder with real draw backs that have little to do with whether or not lando-i is broken (for example, most offensive teams would rather not give sand rush exca a free swap in either. In fact, I'd argue that sand rush exca is far scarier to offense then RP lando-I).

2. 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 113-133 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Even resisted hits will 2hko lando-i with even a small amount of prior damage and SR. Not to mention that if Keldeo isn't choice locked, then he outspeeds and ohkos with scald.

3. The reason why I'm pressing the swap in point is because unlike Greninja, Lando-I is incredibly easy to revenge kill. Virtually any offensive mon with >101 speed can threaten it out once it's in. Also unlike Greninja, Lando-I isn't a particularly good revenge killer, meaning that one of your primary sources of free swap ins aren't even all that reliable.

4. You do realize that if he comes in on a u-turn of any stripe, he's going to be immediately threatened out, right? Lando-I is actually a terrible swap into Scizor of any kind because he gets wrecked by bullet punch and u-turn just gives one of his many checks a free swap in (any competent team should contain at least one mon that can beat lando-i if it's given a free swap in, that's not hard to do).

So yeah, Lando-I can revenge kill all that well, it can't really swap into even moderately powerful attacks like resisted specs secret sword, the only thing I got is slow volt turn. Congrats, you have now discovered that slow volt-turn + powerful wallbreaker is really good. This really doesn't distinguish lando-I from any other really good wallbreaker, like megagard for instence, who also tends to net a kill every time it gets a swap in.

This is not a "git gud" argument, this is saying that the assumption that lando-i gets a free switch in is a terribly flawed one. What I'm saying is that lando-i has incredibly limited switch in opportunities, like most other wallbreakers. Also like most wallbreakers, once he is in, he is very difficult to swap into because he's designed to, ya'know, break walls. If lando-I is out and anywhere near full health when you have to switch, you done goofed, and you will have to stomach a very strong attack as punishment, like any other wallbreaker.

I have not seen a single argument here for lando-I that cannot be applied to mega gard or mega chomp.

So I stand by my previous question: How is Lando-I getting in? If he cannot swap in and fire off at least one good attack without getting forced out more then twice in a given match, then there is no reason to ban this guy.

I do not really see the point of making the nitpicks such as "choice electric types are already a liability" and "specs Keldeo 3HKOs." Yeah, those are really obvious claims. You asked what grants Landorus a switch-in and I gave you answers. You can't dismiss them just because their downsides are apparent outside of Landorus (and in Keldeo's case BTW, Landorus can switch in, Rock Polish and proceed to bop a weakened Keldeo).

"Incredibly easy to revenge kill" is certainly an overstatement. It has respectable bulk with good typing and only 2 weaknesses. Yes there are many things that can revenge kill Landorus but to claim it is incredibly easy to revenge kill is just ludicrous.

I said Scizor grants Landorus a free switch-in if you're the one using Scizor.. not that you can switch Landorus into Scizor. lol. And yeah, no shit that slow voltturns + strong wallbreaker is a good combo. You can't dismiss my point just because it's obvious, that doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

I don't assume that Lando always gets a free switch. But generally players get several free switches per match and Landorus is able to take advantage of each of these. Double switching is also one of the best times to bring Landorus in, although granted this is a prediction so that goes both ways I suppose.

"I have not seen a single argument here for lando-I that cannot be applied to mega gard or mega chomp."

What? Since when does Gardevoir only have 2 legit counters that are incredibly passive? And Mega Chomp is much slower (101 speed tier is being underestimated) + lacks the coverage unless you're running the mixed set which is generally considered inferior to the Swords Dance set which needs to set up. Both are also far more predictable than Landorus

 

[benjamin4321]

I think suspects like these somewhat have the right intention, but the nature of the beast makes these a temporary stopgap at best. about every 4-5 years we get a new gen bringing about 10-15 ou pokes and 5 that will have a huge impact on the meta. In between those 5 years updated pversion or remakes like platinum and heartgold soul silver will be released as well also bringing changes. I think the problem with suspects like metagross and lando I is that they make sense, but only because the way the metagame is shaped (Matchup etc) They are very very very very dangerous, but not on the level of bans of previous gens, deoxys-d, genesect, Chomp in 4th gen . I cant really find the right words to expand on that last sentence, but i hope people cansort of get the gist on what i'm talking about. IMO 5th gen was amazing because you could almost completely prepare for everything, but with more variety than gen 3. I think with the current system in like 2 gens a metagame like ubers which is heavily centralized around a few pokemon will be the only one than can work logistically, just because that means 15-30 more OU pokes and 10-15 that are in S - B+ rank. The cancer that would be defensive reshiram in OU now could be the only option in gen 8-9 to not make games purely rock paper scizors.

In no way am I saying I am right and will readily admit I'm not the most verse in examining the metagame, so if I am dead wrong I will happily be lectured by more knowledgeable players so I can learn and grow.

 

[North Gate]

Some nitpicks on your post.
3. The reason why I'm pressing the swap in point is because unlike Greninja, Lando-I is incredibly easy to revenge kill. Virtually any offensive mon with >101 speed can threaten it out once it's in. Also unlike Greninja, Lando-I isn't a particularly good revenge killer, meaning that one of your primary sources of free swap ins aren't even all that reliable.

Speed argument is done with Rock Polish sets. That doesn't always happen but it's a big possibility you have to consider here. MAero? HP Ice Rock Polish Lando is pretty good, and Rock Slide is decent on that as well. Greninja was honestly not that hard to revenge kill. After he got his new moves Azumarill pretty much smacks him since he didn't run Water STAB.
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 202-238 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow, it can tank a hit. Ice Fang is used on some sets but it's not always used over some other coverage or a utility move. Unlike Greninja, Lando has pretty decent bulk in comparison to Grens shitty bulk. Now that I've said that the comparison between these two is pretty stupid. They don't do the same exact things, so stop trying to bring cancer into the table by providing these details. Also idk why you're mentioning switch ins as said above, because Lando is an offensive Pokémon, if it comes down to an offensive team it can literally sweep if it forces something out after a Rock Polish, and as I just said, you can't always debate speed about Landorus, 101 is decent, not horrible, and Rock Polish makes it Sonic and it uses a + nature on attack to still not make it dead weight against what it normally does in breaking stall. On pretty much any RP Lando I've ever used I used either HP Ice or Rock Slide for the very reason of MAero. MAero is a threat, one of the few if the only offensive checks to Landorus that still like every other Landorus check besides Latias-Mega and Cress gets bodied by a certain move on the set that you can't be sure is there. Plus this isn't 1v1, this is 6v6, we have 5 mons in the back, ones that possibly can handle MAero.

 

[Drag0nair]

Lando-I has plenty of opportunities to come in. To set up a rock polish is much harder, ill agree with that one, but lando-I has respectable bulk. I think people are misunderstanding the "easy to revenge kill". Lando-I isnt gonna stay in on a situation in which it is unfavorable. It's not gonna try and take down weavile when it obviously isnt gonna take an ice shard well . It isn't Lando just versus a team of 6. Its lando having a strong enough impact where the team it is placed on can have minimal support but still be at an advantage. I have seen numerous times that " oh i can just come in an ice shard lando and kill it so it isnt op" well it isnt gonna stay in to take an ice shard, no decent player would put themselves in a situation like that.

 

[locoghoul]

Ok was gonna LOL at jpw234 post (Manaphy not Scald/Ice Beam, Ferro anything but Gyro/Leech Seed among some other gems) but I'm stopping this just to correct this:

252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 202-238 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow, it can tank a hit. Ice Fang is used on some sets but it's not always used over some other coverage or a utility move.

Ya buddy, the other move being Aqua Tail. Might wanna run calcs on that see if Lando "can take a hit". It's either EQ/Ice Fang or Fire Fang/Aqua Tail FYI as coverage moves. This is why these threads are useless...

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Right-o, so, this is a much needed Suspect test. We all knew it was coming, and we all think it should have happened a long time ago. Since it's real close to bed, I'm simply going to give a relatively short overview of what I think of this pizza shit. Landorus I is in every way game breaking. It has a way to run through every team style with little to no effort. Has relatively nice bulk, and pops off strong as frick attacks. It has nearly no counters, and of the Pokemon that do counter, they are passive as all shit and only really fit on one team archetype. Yes, it is "entirely dependent on its moveset" but that doesn't take away from how obnoxious this thing is. If you know what you're doing it isn't difficult to get at least 2 - 3 kills with Landorus I. RP beats offense, CM beats Stall and Landorus I beats balance, nothing is safe. It's near impossible to switch into, even with scouting. Much like a previous suspect, scouting can be very difficult and can result in losing multiple Pokemon before finally knowing its set and checking accordingly. Long story short, this thing is broken as hell. It makes the meta unhealthy and I will be voting Ban provided I don't get tilted out.

*crosses fingers*

 

[North Gate]

Ok was gonna LOL at jpw234 post (Manaphy not Scald/Ice Beam, Ferro anything but Gyro/Leech Seed among some other gems) but I'm stopping this just to correct this:



Ya buddy, the other move being Aqua Tail. Might wanna run calcs on that see if Lando "can take a hit". It's either EQ/Ice Fang or Fire Fang/Aqua Tail FYI as coverage moves. This is why these threads are useless...

Yes. I'm human. I made a mistake. No need to shit on me for it.

That being said, sometimes using your STAB is the safest option because of obvious switch ins, so it's not like that has no merit. I'm just trying to showcase that it isn't the bulk that's Landorus' problem in some cases. Also I said it could run utility. Roost. Hone Claws. Defog. Stealth Rocks. They all fit in that archtype and shouldn't be ignored here.

 

[GeeMick]

I'm just gonna throw my two cents on the whole topic of Landorus coming in.
You need to think in terms of practical play, once again. Against hyper offensive teams, if your team isn't made to be too passive you can reasonably switch into an Excadrill's earthquake or something of the sort, because it might be just as pressured as you to go for the kill on, say, a Heatran which has gotten rocks up, than for you to get Lando-I in.
Against bulky offense builds (think RH Garchomp Alakazam sort of teams) you can come in on the pivots and threaten the whole team as they're likely to lack good switchins to Lando. This means said pivots might be played differently just because of the very presence of Landorus-I instead of setting hazards which they would normally do in most other cases.
Against slower balanced and defensive builds, you can come in on a numerous of weak attacks and most importantly on forced recovery moves after one of your teammates pressured x component of the opposing defensive core, and start putting in work against them.

To sum up, it's not just about a mon OHKOing Lando-I or not; it depends on a lot of factors which are obviously specific and different in every game, but Lando-I has definitely many more switchin opportunities than WebBowser is making it out, not even accounting for clever plays like double switching or u-turners/volt switchers.

 

[WebBowser]

Norne In my defense, I said "Check" not "Counter". M-Aero an extremely solid revenge killer to any Lando-I set, including RP with the additional bonus of being able to swap into many (though not all) of his common moves.

jpw234

I have a few issues with some of the mons you think lando-I can swap into.

Clefable: In addition to not appreciating the knock off and ice beam, Lando-I can't really come in on Moonblast or CM either.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 289-341 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 132-156 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Moonblast is especially relevant since it's Clefable's STAB, meaning that you can assume that virtually every clefable is running it.


Ferrothorn: Gyro Ball does over 50% and power whip isn't far behind. That's a lot of damage to be taking for something that you can't even reliably OHKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 168-198 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 135-159 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 309-367 (87.7 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

And that's not even factoring focus miss's shaky accuracy.


Gliscor: Lando-I doesn't appreciate swapping into u-turn, knock off or toxic either, so there's that. The latter two are especially relevant given how common they are on gliscor sets. I will grant that Lando-I can usually swap into gliscor though (unless ice fang becomes a thing).


Hippo: Lando-I doesn't like swapping into toxic and cannot swap into whirlwind period. Like gliscor though, he can usually get a free swap in unless your team sincerely can't deal with whirlwind spam (in which case run a friggen stallbreaker).


Slowbro: Lando-I can't swap into CM and doesn't like toxic much.


Venu: Can't swap into sleep powder, doesn't like Leech Seed or knock off because it turns many of Lando-I's shaky counters into strong counters.


Klefki: While klefki cannot threaten him directly, lando-i is going to be really sad if he comes in on a light screen, which neuters his effectiveness pretty hard.


U-Turn in general: As stated earlier, pretty much any competent team is going to have a mon that can outspeed and KO lando-I if given a free swap in, so things like Lando-T and Celebi are not particularly safe swap ins for him for this reason.

So even things that Lando-I can technically "swap into" aren't particularly safe, and most of them have ways to punish or at least limit the number of times he can come in.

I do not really see the point of making the nitpicks such as "choice electric types are already a liability" and "specs Keldeo 3HKOs." Yeah, those are really obvious claims. You asked what grants Landorus a switch-in and I gave you answers. You can't dismiss them just because their downsides are apparent outside of Landorus (and in Keldeo's case BTW, Landorus can switch in, Rock Polish and proceed to bop a weakened Keldeo).

"Incredibly easy to revenge kill" is certainly an overstatement. It has respectable bulk with good typing and only 2 weaknesses. Yes there are many things that can revenge kill Landorus but to claim it is incredibly easy to revenge kill is just ludicrous.

I said Scizor grants Landorus a free switch-in if you're the one using Scizor.. not that you can switch Landorus into Scizor. lol. And yeah, no shit that slow voltturns + strong wallbreaker is a good combo. You can't dismiss my point just because it's obvious, that doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

I don't assume that Lando always gets a free switch. But generally players get several free switches per match and Landorus is able to take advantage of each of these. Double switching is also one of the best times to bring Landorus in, although granted this is a prediction so that goes both ways I suppose.

"I have not seen a single argument here for lando-I that cannot be applied to mega gard or mega chomp."

What? Since when does Gardevoir only have 2 legit counters that are incredibly passive? And Mega Chomp is much slower (101 speed tier is being underestimated) + lacks the coverage unless you're running the mixed set which is generally considered inferior to the Swords Dance set which needs to set up. Both are also far more predictable than Landorus

My point in stating Keldeo 3HKOs Lando-I is not so much to say that Keldeo should stay in on Lando-I if it's at full health and more to say that if Lando-I has taken even one hit during the battle for any reason, he cannot swap into sacred sword. If you can't kill something that's about to kill you, then you either swap out or sac something.

I also misunderstood your point on Scizor, and I apologize for that. I misread your post and thought you were saying that Lando-I could swap into scizor. I grant that scizor is an amazing partner to lando-i.

"I don't assume that Lando always gets a free switch. But generally players get several free switches per match and Landorus is able to take advantage of each of these. Double switching is also one of the best times to bring Landorus in, although granted this is a prediction so that goes both ways I suppose."

So far we have double switches, a handful of insanely passive pokemon, and slow u-turners. Of these 3, slow u-turners are the only one's that I consider consistent enough to get lando-I in enough times to be effective. However, Lando-I is not the only pokemon that works well with slow u-turners. Mega-Gard is almost just as difficult to swap into, hits just as hard neutrally, hits on both ends of the spectrum, and doesn't have an immunity on it's primary STAB.

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 117-138 (18.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 117-138 (18.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO

Lastly, I apologize if I was rude in responding to your post. This thread has left me in a rather foul mood.


*edit to reply to GeeMick *

I'm just gonna throw my two cents on the whole topic of Landorus coming in.
You need to think in terms of practical play, once again. Against hyper offensive teams, if your team isn't made to be too passive you can reasonably switch into an Excadrill's earthquake or something of the sort, because it might be just as pressured as you to go for the kill on, say, a Heatran which has gotten rocks up, than for you to get Lando-I in.
Against bulky offense builds (think RH Garchomp Alakazam sort of teams) you can come in on the pivots and threaten the whole team as they're likely to lack good switchins to Lando. This means said pivots might be played differently just because of the very presence of Landorus-I instead of setting hazards which they would normally do in most other cases.
Against slower balanced and defensive builds, you can come in on a numerous of weak attacks and most importantly on forced recovery moves after one of your teammates pressured x component of the opposing defensive core, and start putting in work against them.

To sum up, it's not just about a mon OHKOing Lando-I or not; it depends on a lot of factors which are obviously specific and different in every game, but Lando-I has definitely many more switchin opportunities than WebBowser is making it out, not even accounting for clever plays like double switching or u-turners/volt switchers.

I am very much so thinking in terms of real battle situations. In fact I'm making my argument saying that people who assume free swap ins are not taking in likely battle situations into account. I argue that all three playstyles, even stall, have an appropriate level of counterplay available to Lando and are plenty capable of making swapping in lando-i a very risky move.

HO matchups are defined by high risk, high reward plays. Any time a semi-bulky powerful mon like lando-i or Garchomp is given a free swap in, something is probably going to die. That's how HO works.

For BO teams, what kind of pivots is lando-i coming in on? Even defensive mons like Heatran and Ferro can chunk lando-i pretty hard on the swap in.

That just leaves stall, who basically needs to rely on proactive phasing and passive damage like status and hazards to prevent lando-i from firing off too many attacks. Stall certainly faces an uphill battle, but wallbreakers tend to do that and I don't think he provides an insurmountable advantage tin that regard.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Finding free switches with Lando is not that hard except hyper offense and u still can find set up oportunitys on things like unboosted altaria, keldeo locked in secret sword, specs raikou locked in volyswich etc

 

[bludz]

WebBowser Ha it's cool man this thread can do that to you sorry if I came off the same way as well. I honestly think you are making it out to be a lot harder than it is to get Landorus in. It is an offensive pokemon and thus it isn't going to be switching into a ton of things safely but in practice all you really need is one or two low risk switch-ins (not to mention any free switch opportunities granted) to fire off a couple powerful attacks. "What does it switch into?" is more of a question for defensively oriented pokemon. The fact that Landorus has 2 immunities, reasonable bulk and only 2 weaknesses gives it more than enough opportunities for a wallbreaker of its power.

Anyway the thing with Gardevoir is that while it is very difficult to switch into, it has more reliable counters - Bronzong, SpDef pixies (Jirachi & Victini) and Klefki. It is a lot more pressured by offense due to its frailty, not being immune to t-wave, lack of setup sweeping moves and only speed tying other base 100s like Mega Charizard Y and whatnot.

 

[WebBowser]

WebBowser Ha it's cool man this thread can do that to you sorry if I came off the same way as well. I honestly think you are making it out to be a lot harder than it is to get Landorus in. It is an offensive pokemon and thus it isn't going to be switching into a ton of things safely but in practice all you really need is one or two low risk switch-ins (not to mention any free switch opportunities granted) to fire off a couple powerful attacks. "What does it switch into?" is more of a question for defensively oriented pokemon. The fact that Landorus has 2 immunities, reasonable bulk and only 2 weaknesses gives it more than enough opportunities for a wallbreaker of its power.

Anyway the thing with Gardevoir is that while it is very difficult to switch into, it has more reliable counters - Bronzong, SpDef pixies (Jirachi & Victini) and Klefki. It is a lot more pressured by offense due to its frailty, not being immune to t-wave, lack of setup sweeping moves and only speed tying other base 100s like Mega Charizard Y and whatnot.

M-Gard does have methods for bypassing it's counters much like lando-i does. Subs and Twave are great for really messing with common swap ins and it has coverage moves for bopping all of those, namely shadow ball and HP-Fire/Ground (not to mention that sans Bronzong, Hyper Voice does a number to most of these anyway).

I don't think that m-gard needs to predict anymore then lando-i does in order to bypass it's counters. In fact, given how common ground immunity is, I'd argue that lando-i needs to predict much better then gard does in order to bypass its counters. Mispredicting with Lando-I will result in getting forced out, often times having done relatively little damage. Mispredicting with m-gard will, pretty much at worst, net you a resisted hyper voice, which still hurts.

Basically, I do not see Lando-I being the "risk free destroyer of balance" everyone is making him out to be.

Also, people reasonably settling their misunderstandings on the internet without devolving into a flame war? In the middle of a heated debate!?!? WHAT MADNESS IS THIS?!?!?!?

 

[Analytic]

M-Gard does have methods for bypassing it's counters much like lando-i does. Subs and Twave are great for really messing with common swap ins and it has coverage moves for bopping all of those, namely shadow ball and HP-Fire/Ground (not to mention that sans Bronzong, Hyper Voice does a number to most of these anyway).

I don't think that m-gard needs to predict anymore then lando-i does in order to bypass it's counters. In fact, given how common ground immunity is, I'd argue that lando-i needs to predict much better then gard does in order to bypass its counters. Mispredicting with Lando-I will result in getting forced out, often times having done relatively little damage. Mispredicting with m-gard will, pretty much at worst, net you a resisted hyper voice, which still hurts.

Basically, I do not see Lando-I being the "risk free destroyer of balance" everyone is making him out to be.

Also, people reasonably settling their misunderstandings on the internet without devolving into a flame war? In the middle of a heated debate!?!? WHAT MADNESS IS THIS?!?!?!?

If you can bop a mon on the switch in with the right move then that mon isn't known as a counter.

A counter is a pokemon that can switch into any variant of an opposing pokemon and beat it

For example: Bisharp is a check, not a counter to MegaZam because it usually carries Focus Blast and hence switching in is a problem

 

[WebBowser]

If you can bop a mon on the switch in with the right move then that mon isn't known as a counter.

A counter is a pokemon that can switch into any variant of an opposing pokemon and beat it

yes yes, I know the difference between a check and a counter.

However, the current definition for "check", ie "a mon who, when given a free swap in can beat the opponent even in the worst circumstance", is not what I wanted to talk about. That definition sounds more like "revenge killer" to me. I want to talk about mons who can swap into the opposing mons primary stabs and some subset of their coverage moves, but not necessarily all of them. Unfortunately, we don't really have a good term for that.

Besides, people talk about mons "bypassing their counters" all the time. For example, people would talk about Heatran being "the one true genesect counter" and then go on to say that Heatran can get lured by HP ground gene.

 

[daftmau5]

Anecdotally speaking, i haven't found Lando-i difficult to bring in vs balance and bulky offense teams (though i will admit it's a lot harder vs fast HO teams without a free switch or a choice locked attack). For example, an attack that puts enough pressure on a wall such as Clefable to use Softboiled is a great opportunity to switch into Landorus or early game when my opponent is focused on setting up SR or Spikes with something like Ferrothorn, Rocky Chomp, Lan-t. They are less likely to attack here because they get zero value out of the turn if i switch into something like Heatran instead on their Gyro Ball as opposed to setting up a layer of hazards. Placing Landorus-i on the end of Volturn cores is also incredibly effective.

The overarching issue is that once Landorus-i enters the field, it offers incredibly risk free offensive pressure and even landing a neutral hit has a high pay off. For example, if Landorus-i switches into a healing Clefable, Sludge Wave then either hits Clefable for at least 73% OR plainly 2HKOs a switch such as Rotom-W OR inflicts an incredibly high amount of damage on an offensive check such as Keldeo switching in (at least 54%). TDK has made a great post here containing 3 replays which highlight this.

On the other hand, most things which resist a coverage attack such as Sludge Wave are generally slower than Lan-i which puts them at the mercy of Earth Power or Focus Blast which keeps an incredibly unfair amount of momentum and pressure in the hands of the Landorus-i user: Offensive Landorus-i checks despise Landorus-i's coverage moves while anything slower is 2HKO'd by a combination of attacks save for a select few pokemon such as Mega Latias. For example, Knock Off + Focus Blast KOs Rotom-W with SR. When making offensive cores and my sweeper is walled by something, I ask myself what pokemon can i add to break or soften said wall. Funnily enough, 9 times out of 10 i just do something as thoughtless as slapping on Landorus-i and it gets the job done.

While having few switchins isn't really enough of an argument to ban a pokemon, it's a unique combination of factors alongside this including versatility (excellent coverage, SR, Rock Polish), above average speed, SR neutrality (when compared to other balance breakers such as Zard Y, Weavile and NP Thund) and most importantly the incredible amount of risk free offensive pressure it creates because of its power that makes Landorus-i broken. Putting Landorus-i in your teambuilder basically puts you at an immediate and incredibly unfair advantage vs a number of teams by simply having it in your team even before you enter a battle. If we truly want anything resembling a balanced metagame, Landorus-i simply needs to go.

E: spelling, grammar, additional points, yada yada

 

[Machi]

yes yes, I know the difference between a check and a counter.

However, the current definition for "check", ie "a mon who, when given a free swap in can beat the opponent even in the worst circumstance", is not what I wanted to talk about. That definition sounds more like "revenge killer" to me. I want to talk about mons who can swap into the opposing mons primary stabs and some subset of their coverage moves, but not necessarily all of them. Unfortunately, we don't really have a good term for that.

Besides, people talk about mons "bypassing their counters" all the time. For example, people would talk about Heatran being "the one true genesect counter" and then go on to say that Heatran can get lured by HP ground gene.

That is why we talk about it in degrees as in the Victim of the week thread. It has at least evolved in looking at the concept as a spectrum than absolutes. I don't think they are off in what they are saying at least, labeling things as either a hard or soft check.

The problem here I think is people seem to expect that Landorus necessarily needs to cover all bases. However, because he has such a small pool of reliable answers, which are specific Pokemon (hence known), he isn't as inclined to always deal with them as they can be more easily built against specifically, you aren't going to be running the gamut of the viability rankings after all so it is much easier to build with those numbers you can count.

Which is why I don't see the whole focus on 4 MSS when really he has such a small list of switch ins that he can afford to be more sub-optimal, aside Lati@s and SpD Talonflame the rest aren't nearly common, since he will still hit majority of your team.

As the small list being specific enough can be exploited around, again that already eases the team building aspect right there as the pressure is on the other side to build securely against Lando-I whereas the other side having Lando-I does have more maneuverability to dictate the pace of the match - as it can very easily become a win condition (on top of existing ones in Megas).

 

[McMeghan]

3rd LST announced: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/live-suspect-tours.3536087/#post-6230508

 

[WebBowser]

daftmau5 Ty for reposting those replays, as they really do a great job at showing off just how versatile lando-I is, which I think is a legitimate pro-ban argument. I also concede that getting him in is definitely possible (though Gingy did get a lot of beneficial hax in the third game).

That is why we talk about it in degrees as in the Victim of the week thread. It has at least evolved in looking at the concept as a spectrum than absolutes. I don't think they are off in what they are saying at least, labeling things as either a hard or soft check.

The problem here I think is people seem to expect that Landorus necessarily needs to cover all bases. However, because he has such a small pool of reliable answers, which are specific Pokemon (hence known), he isn't as inclined to always deal with them as they can be more easily built against specifically, you aren't going to be running the gamut of the viability rankings after all so it is much easier to build with those numbers you can count.

Which is why I don't see the whole focus on 4 MSS when really he has such a small list of switch ins that he can afford to be more sub-optimal, aside Lati@s and SpD Talonflame the rest aren't nearly common, since he will still hit majority of your team.

As the small list being specific enough can be exploited around, again that already eases the team building aspect right there as the pressure is on the other side to build securely against Lando-I whereas the other side having Lando-I does have more maneuverability to dictate the pace of the match - as it can very easily become a win condition (on top of existing ones in Megas).

I definitely agree that a spectrum is useful and that thinking in terms of "absolute" checks or counters is the wrong way to go about it, but I also think that revenge killers are fundamentally different from checks. For example, CB Weavile is a great lando-i revenge killer. If given a free swap in, it will kill lando-i with ice shard every time, regardless of all but the most rediculous circumstances. However, CB Weav can't really swap into any of lando's attacks except maybe HP ice, making it an extremely poor check. On the other end of the spectrum, SP defensive Skarm is a pretty good Lando-I check that can swap into anything but focus blast and phase it out, but it's a rather poor revenge killer due to being outsped and its weak offensive presence.

I believe that there is enough of a fundamental difference in how we expect something like weavile to interact with lando-i and how we expect skarm to interact with lando-i that simply lumping the two under the term "lando-i check" is less informative then it should be and causes a great deal of unnessesary confusion. If I had things my way, the current definition of "check" would be renamed to "revenge killer" while check gets redefined to "Mon X checks Y if X can swap into some, but not all of Y's viable moves and force Y out".

My somewhat off topic rant on Smogon terminology aside, I am convinced that lando-i needs to go and will probably duck out for the time being (I wasn't kidding about the IRL stuff).

inb4 thread reverts back to an endless cycle of people repeating eachother's points...

 

[Machi]

daftmau5 Ty for reposting those replays, as they really do a great job at showing off just how versatile lando-I is, which I think is a legitimate pro-ban argument. I also concede that getting him in is definitely possible (though Gingy did get a lot of beneficial hax in the third game).



I definitely agree that a spectrum is useful and that thinking in terms of "absolute" checks or counters is the wrong way to go about it, but I also think that revenge killers are fundamentally different from checks. For example, CB Weavile is a great lando-i revenge killer. If given a free swap in, it will kill lando-i with ice shard every time, regardless of all but the most rediculous circumstances. However, CB Weav can't really swap into any of lando's attacks except maybe HP ice, making it an extremely poor check. On the other end of the spectrum, SP defensive Skarm is a pretty good Lando-I check that can swap into anything but focus blast and phase it out, but it's a rather poor revenge killer due to being outsped and its weak offensive presence.

I believe that there is enough of a fundamental difference in how we expect something like weavile to interact with lando-i and how we expect skarm to interact with lando-i that simply lumping the two under the term "lando-i check" is less informative then it should be and causes a great deal of unnessesary confusion. If I had things my way, the current definition of "check" would be renamed to "revenge killer" while check gets redefined to "Mon X checks Y if X can swap into some, but not all of Y's viable moves and force Y out".

My somewhat off topic rant on Smogon terminology aside, I am convinced that lando-i needs to go and will probably duck out for the time being (I wasn't kidding about the IRL stuff).

inb4 thread reverts back to an endless cycle of people repeating eachother's points...

I think the problem with the whole lumping together falls more under the spectrum of a soft check, in so much that Weavile can switch in on HP ice or Psychic, but amount of prediction and scouting required is obviously is too risky. Though honestly it is probably safer to discount checks that are likely to die in one hit (or within a margin of their life) if hit by a neutral move rather than specific coverage.

I agree though revenge killers are definitely being confused for checks, Keldeo fits that bill nicely IMO as it is more optimal to have him avoid taking damage and revenge killing than potentially taking a neutral hit or using him to scout for coverage.

Though even with the last suspect test there were a lot of confusion with terminology, case and point viability.

I don't think that m-gard needs to predict anymore then lando-i does in order to bypass it's counters. In fact, given how common ground immunity is, I'd argue that lando-i needs to predict much better then gard does in order to bypass its counters. Mispredicting with Lando-I will result in getting forced out, often times having done relatively little damage. Mispredicting with m-gard will, pretty much at worst, net you a resisted hyper voice, which still hurts.

I think this is relative when you consider he has a higher base speed and better bulk from the get go, unlike MGarde who needs a turn to be up to snuff which can be irksome to say at the least.

Unlike MGarde he has some leeway to make mistakes, as posted pages back he has acceptable bulk to take some punishment from neutral STAB and live to tell the tale for most part. While there is an immunity I don't find Lando-I to be necessarily exploitable enough when he makes a mistake.

Again this is relative, since I could go on also about his own movepool over Garde's own coverage, but at the end of it all it is a matter of how easily punished he would be for giving a free switch in, considering that he easily survives most priority or strong neutral hits is a bonus on his end if he needs to go toe to toe.

 

[WebBowser]

Machi I don't think we should "discount" checks that easily die to the mon they are checking. Being able to kill a mon, especially a setup sweeper, when given a free swap in is really important. For example, M-Pinsir is a fearsome sweeper who is known to destroy entire teams after getting +2 due to it's combination of speed, power, and respectable bulk. If M-Pinsir has +2, the question is likely not "who can I swap into this guy?", because the answer is probably nothing. Instead, you're asking yourself "What on my team can possibly kill this thing before it 6-0s me?" In this situation Talonflame, who is normally a rather poor m-pinsir "check" due to being completely unable to swap into frustration/return is suddenly tremendously valuable because you can send it in after saccing a mon to pinsir and force it out with BB regardless of how many SDs M-Pinsir has picked up, preventing a sweep (for the moment at least).

The ability to force out a mon when given a free swap in is very valuable, especially when we are discussing setup sweepers. However, the ability to swap into some of a threatening mons moves and subsequently force it out is also very valuable, even if you cannot swap into all of said threatening mon's moves. Both roles are valuable, but they are also very different, and therefore should have different names.

It would be like calling AV torn-t a "special wall" because you are frequently sending him in to take special hits.

 

[Machi]

Machi I don't think we should "discount" checks that easily die to the mon they are checking. Being able to kill a mon, especially a setup sweeper, when given a free swap in is really important. For example, M-Pinsir is a fearsome sweeper who is known to destroy entire teams after getting +2 due to it's combination of speed, power, and respectable bulk. If M-Pinsir has +2, the question is likely not "who can I swap into this guy?", because the answer is probably nothing. Instead, you're asking yourself "What on my team can possibly kill this thing before it 6-0s me?" In this situation Talonflame, who is normally a rather poor m-pinsir "check" due to being completely unable to swap into frustration/return is suddenly tremendously valuable because you can send it in after saccing a mon to pinsir and force it out with BB regardless of how many SDs M-Pinsir has picked up, preventing a sweep (for the moment at least).

The ability to force out a mon when given a free swap in is very valuable, especially when we are discussing setup sweepers. However, the ability to swap into some of a threatening mons moves and subsequently force it out is also very valuable, even if you cannot swap into all of said threatening mon's moves. Both roles are valuable, but they are also very different, and therefore should have different names.

It would be like calling AV torn-t a "special wall" because you are frequently sending him in to take special hits.

That is a revenge killer at that point... And Torn-T is a pivot, he's not exactly a fully fledged wall after all, though he can threaten his primary purpose isn't necessarily to wall.

As for that free turn the question is precisely whether Lando-I is all that exploitable, when for most part there certainly aren't going to be much set up sweepers that would necessarily risk trying to set up in front of Lando-I, and more likely just going to attack straight out. Yes you switch in on EP but it is pushing it to try and actually set up in front of a mon with massive offenses and fairly acceptable defense, with coverage to boot.

My concern was akin the case of Talonflame in that it is probably safer to be relegated as a revenge killer than trying to gamble on a predicted SD for most part since it is generally safer and more optimal to preserve more health by revenge killing, rather than taking a risk of a neutral hit that would easily kill you for most part. Which is where I find confusion begins to set in when you start muddling whether a mon is better off as a soft check versus an outright revenge killer. Then again this is more relative to the tides of battle, whether it comes down to it as a last resort or not.

 

[WebBowser]

Machi That's literally the point I'm trying to make. Right now, the definition of a check is pretty much "X can revenge kill Y". As we both know, there are other kinds of checks besides revenge killers and often times when we discuss "checks", we aren't talking about revenge killers at all! Therefore, revenge killers should not be called "checks" and checks should be redefined to something other then "X can revenge kill Y". That's literally all I'm trying to say.

Also, I never meant to say that AV Tornadous-T should be called a special wall, I said that calling Talonflame a m-pinser check would be like calling AV Torn-T a special wall as a way to illustrate why calling Talonflame a "check" is so wrong. I even stated in my talonflame example that Talonflame is an exceedingly poor M-Pinsir check while being an excellent M-Pinsir revenge killer.

That's literally all I'm trying to say. I'm sorry if I had been ambiguous on the points that I was trying to make.