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I've been testing each of the drops and am going to post my thoughts on all of them:
Scrafty: My favorite drop personally and probably the most versatile mon in the tier atm as it has over 4 different sets: dragon dance, bulk up, choice band, assault vest, and even defensive ones. That may not seem like much but remember it has probably 10 variants of each set. It does however have flaws in low speed, exploitable weaknesses and average power without a boost from band or from set up. Plus it falls under the jack of all trades master of none category. Still a solid mom however.
Flygon: this one is probably the most beneficial to the tier as it provides much needed hazard removal in defog and it is only affected by 1 hazard which it resists. Also versatile and has important resists and immunities. Finally 100 speed is really good for RU and while it's attack isn't that high the high base power stabs make up for it.
Noivern: This one is the one I'd keep an eye on to see if it's broken or not as it basically makes offense cry and even can work vs stall in taunt + roost. Although this thing might not be broken but just to be sure my suggestion would be to keep a close eye just to be sure.
While Cobalion is fantastic atm, Glalie provides a lot of counterplay as a partner to your own Cobalion. From what I've seen over the past few days, Spiritomb, Seismitoad, Cofagrigus, Noivern, and even Mega Steelix are fair ways to put a stop to Cobalion's shenanigans. Glalie baits in a fair few of these guys and threatens them all heavily. Not really sure where to go with this from here but basically what I'm trying to say goes as follows.
Cobalion is fantastic.
Glalie works well with Cobalion by softening mutual checks and beating others (Tangrowth)
Glalie has good niches on its own with Ice Shard and yada yada.
Yeah, definetly cobalion is just an awesome mon right now, about spiritomb, Is it really a nice way to stop cobalion? i know it can burn it even behind a sub thanks to infiltrator, but besides that, almost all spiritomb just carry dark type attacks to deal direct damage, so it would just rise cobalion's attack and cobalion can SD with ease in front of spiritomb, so even if its burned cobalion has advantage against spiritomb
Im just saying, probably im wrong lol
Cobalion is just awesome right now, really hard to stop if it has
Yeah, definetly cobalion is just an awesome mon right now, about spiritomb, Is it really a nice way to stop cobalion? i know it can burn it even behind a sub thanks to infiltrator, but besides that, almost all spiritomb just carry dark type attacks to deal direct damage, so it would just rise cobalion's attack and cobalion can SD with ease in front of spiritomb, so even if its burned cobalion has advantage against spiritomb
Im just saying, probably im wrong lol
I don't really play this tier far too often (just getting into it for the first time since the last suspect) so what I listed here was basically things I would notice in team preview and would think to myself "hmm this could be a pain in the ass". Spiritomb isn't really a counter per se but it's still an annoyance from Cobalion to deal with.
Bye bye Kingdra. Not good enough for UU but too good for RU. Rip in pasta. ;(
Flygon, interesting. Might consider using one as a hazard remover, since that's what my teams lack and there're a few NU mons letting the rest down.
Cobalion for me is a "Can I ko or cripple it before it sweeps me?" because it can gain the upperhand from nowhere if it's not kept in check. It's weak to Ground, Fire and Fighting, not uncommon attacking types so it's not that hard to keep it down. I can usually keep it at bay with Delphox or Jellicent, neither of which it likes being matched up against. Actually with WoW + Taunt Jellicent walls Cobalion. WoW wont work against SubSD sets but Taunt will and that prevents it from maxing out its attack. Scald does enough to break sub too. HP Fire obvs breaks sub too.
Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt / HP Fire
Cursed Body to troll Sub Coba 8D Works well against other things with SE attacks that Jelli can tank then burn and wear down. I've never had a need to use Water Absorb anyway.
Calcs:
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Jellicent: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Jellicent: 114-134 (28.2 - 33.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 100-118 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Edit: Wait, is AV Coba a thing? Cause with the AV it can take a Scald without sub breaking:
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 67-79 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 68-80 (21 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
So maybe that's a way to keep Jelli at bay, though then Coba loses recovery and that's a problem I think.
Bye bye Kingdra. Not good enough for UU but too good for RU. Rip in pasta. ;(
Flygon, interesting. Might consider using one as a hazard remover, since that's what my teams lack and there're a few NU mons letting the rest down.
Cobalion for me is a "Can I ko or cripple it before it sweeps me?" because it can gain the upperhand from nowhere if it's not kept in check. It's weak to Ground, Fire and Fighting, not uncommon attacking types so it's not that hard to keep it down. I can usually keep it at bay with Delphox or Jellicent, neither of which it likes being matched up against. Actually with WoW + Taunt Jellicent walls Cobalion. WoW wont work against SubSD sets but Taunt will and that prevents it from maxing out its attack. Scald does enough to break sub too. HP Fire obvs breaks sub too.
Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt / HP Fire
Cursed Body to troll Sub Coba 8D Works well against other things with SE attacks that Jelli can tank then burn and wear down. I've never had a need to use Water Absorb anyway.
Calcs:
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Jellicent: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Jellicent: 114-134 (28.2 - 33.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 100-118 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Edit: Wait, is AV Coba a thing? Cause with the AV it can take a Scald without sub breaking:
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 67-79 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 68-80 (21 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
So maybe that's a way to keep Jelli at bay, though then Coba loses recovery and that's a problem I think.
AV Cobalion isnt a thing and even if it was how would it get a sub? Lol
I don't see the use of using HP Fire when Scald already does the same damage tbh o.o
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Did I really just forget that AV doesnt allow status moves? xD
I fought someone who had HP Fire on Jelli, though it could have been HP Fighting or Ground as I don't remember asking them and they didn't use it outside of vs Coba.
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Did I really just forget that AV doesnt allow status moves? xD
I fought someone who had HP Fire on Jelli, though it could have been HP Fighting or Ground as I don't remember asking them and they didn't use it outside of vs Coba.
Dude, I don't wanna be mean to you but you might want to read more and play more battles before commenting on these threads again because you're displaying not only poor metagame knowledge (hp something jelly and av cobalion aren't things) but also poor mechanics knowledge. Try to go to the RU room on PS and start there if you want.
Hmm, I've seen a lot of people (both in this thread and in VR) talk about how diverse Scrafty is, but I'm not sure I really agree (obviously its DD set is very customizable, but I don't think that qualifies as diversity). I think Scrafty's two best sets in RU are pretty clearly the DD set and the Choice Band set, I've seen a lot of talk about a Bulk Up Set, but unless I'm missing something I don't actually think this set has any value in the current state of the RU meta game. First off, and what I think is the main problem for it, is that it actually doesn't actually break stall (the thing it is dedicated to doing) any better than the Dragon Dance set and in fact it actually seems worse at defeating current defensive builds in RU given the omnipresence of Fairys in RU. Every Fairy in RU can 2HKO Scrafty with their STAB move, even if it is running Max / Max+ (Togetic, Aromatisse, even Defensive Mega Audino (offensive Mega Audino beats this set too)), and Granbull OHKOes unless its at +1, in which case it still 2HKOes easily. Unlike the Dragon Dance set which can afford to run a coverage move, the Bulk Up set cannot afford to do so without dropping either one of it's STABs, or Rest (in which case you should just be using DD, cause BU 3 Attacks is -_-), and even if you do drop a STAB for Iron Head or P Jab, the lack of offensive investment means that they will still come out on top. And if you run offensive BU Scrafty, then once again you should just be using DD. On top of the fact that BU Scrafty doesn't actually do the job it is intended to do (punishing defensive teams), it absolutely bleeds momentum against offensive teams, if I'm running offense and DD Scrafty gets a boost, I'm sacking something, if it gets 2 boosts, I probably lost, and on top of that switching stuff into it is hard because it actually has offensive presence from the start. If I'm running offense and BU Scrafty gets one boost, I probably beat it without sacking anything, if it gets 2, I'm still actually not that afraid of it, and unlike DD, it isn't actually hard to switch into before it sets up cause uninvested base 90 attack is soooooo weak. Dragon Dance also can beat both Togetic and Aromatisse by Knocking off once on the switch in, having the team apply pressure to keep Hazards up then DDing and using Iron Head / P Jab, BU is roost / wish bait for these mons.
I know that was kind of off topic, but I wanted to give my thoughts on Scrafty and more specifically why I don't think that people should be using BU, I'd rather use Malamar than BU Scrafty cause if you are moderately lucky you can at least beat Togetic while still beating everything that BU Scrafty does. I will say that I find DD Scrafty to be extremely threatening in the meta rn, and I also think CB is pretty nifty right now as well, as Scrafty is rather weak without a boost / boosting item (90 attack is meh :/).
Hmm, I've seen a lot of people (both in this thread and in VR) talk about how diverse Scrafty is, but I'm not sure I really agree (obviously its DD set is very customizable, but I don't think that qualifies as diversity). I think Scrafty's two best sets in RU are pretty clearly the DD set and the Choice Band set, I've seen a lot of talk about a Bulk Up Set, but unless I'm missing something I don't actually think this set has any value in the current state of the RU meta game. First off, and what I think is the main problem for it, is that it actually doesn't actually break stall (the thing it is dedicated to doing) any better than the Dragon Dance set and in fact it actually seems worse at defeating current defensive builds in RU given the omnipresence of Fairys in RU. Every Fairy in RU can 2HKO Scrafty with their STAB move, even if it is running Max / Max+ (Togetic, Aromatisse, even Defensive Mega Audino (offensive Mega Audino beats this set too)), and Granbull OHKOes unless its at +1, in which case it still 2HKOes easily. Unlike the Dragon Dance set which can afford to run a coverage move, the Bulk Up set cannot afford to do so without dropping either one of it's STABs, or Rest (in which case you should just be using DD, cause BU 3 Attacks is -_-), and even if you do drop a STAB for Iron Head or P Jab, the lack of offensive investment means that they will still come out on top. And if you run offensive BU Scrafty, then once again you should just be using DD. On top of the fact that BU Scrafty doesn't actually do the job it is intended to do (punishing defensive teams), it absolutely bleeds momentum against offensive teams, if I'm running offense and DD Scrafty gets a boost, I'm sacking something, if it gets 2 boosts, I probably lost, and on top of that switching stuff into it is hard because it actually has offensive presence from the start. If I'm running offense and BU Scrafty gets one boost, I probably beat it without sacking anything, if it gets 2, I'm still actually not that afraid of it, and unlike DD, it isn't actually hard to switch into before it sets up cause uninvested base 90 attack is soooooo weak. Dragon Dance also can beat both Togetic and Aromatisse by Knocking off once on the switch in, having the team apply pressure to keep Hazards up then DDing and using Iron Head / P Jab, BU is roost / wish bait for these mons.
I know that was kind of off topic, but I wanted to give my thoughts on Scrafty and more specifically why I don't think that people should be using BU, I'd rather use Malamar than BU Scrafty cause if you are moderately lucky you can at least beat Togetic while still beating everything that BU Scrafty does. I will say that I find DD Scrafty to be extremely threatening in the meta rn, and I also think CB is pretty nifty right now as well, as Scrafty is rather weak without a boost / boosting item (90 attack is meh :/).
Okay after testing Scrafty I can't help but feel like you're sleeping on what it does imo.. DD carry poison jab and fairies don't really appreciate switching into. It's not like fairies are everywhere tbh offense don't tend to carry fairies at all... Scrafty works better late game and it does a superb job at cleaning, it baits out checks and can wear them down with team mates.. Then come in and finish game. BU is nice because you don't have to rely on sleep talk like Malamar imo. Scrafty is a fresh of air to the meta as you never know what set you will be facing.
Okay after testing Scrafty I can't help but feel like you're sleeping on what it does imo.. DD carry poison jab and fairies don't really appreciate switching into. It's not like fairies are everywhere tbh offense don't tend to carry fairies at all... Scrafty works better late game and it does a superb job at cleaning, it baits out checks and can wear them down with team mates.. Then come in and finish game. BU is nice because you don't have to rely on sleep talk like Malamar imo. Scrafty is a fresh of air to the meta as you never know what set you will be facing.
I think you misread my post, which is understandable since its kind of a wall of text, but I agree that DD Scrafty (as well as CB Scrafty) is really good, and if played well it can get around Fairies. The negative things I said about Scrafty were almost exclusively about the Bulk Up set. As for not relying on Sleep Talk, that is true, instead you are relying on a 30% chance for Shed Skin to activate, meaning that 49% of the time, your going to sleep just as long as if you didn't even have Shed Skin, which makes Rest Talk seem pretty much just as appealing to me as Shed Skin (in fact I'd rather use Sleep Talk w/ Malamar cause it's got BU and a Fighting attack compressed into one slot).
edit: I feel like responding to above topic- I don't feel like bulk up is particularly good either, it does possess merits over malamar that are noteworthy (not that you said otherwise), overall i'd rather use DD though. still BU can be ok against defensive / balanced teams, it's overall o.k. /edit
i'd like to re-open a topic of discussion. Namely, Exploud, and the brokenness it possesses.
I've talked about this before, and I don't really feel it's gotten the attention it deserves. I know people are going to be skeptical, especially since this mon only puts in work vs. stall. However, i'd like to at least have a serious discussion about this. To start with, I'd like to list off the things that actually switch into Exploud Boomburst (ru viability rank mons only)
note: i'll assume SR when I feel appropriate, and try to assume it as little as possible. in general though i'd rather assume they have it and you don't, especially if your SR setter is checking Exploud.
Cobalion:
Cobalion is fantastic in the meta, but i'd rather not use him on a defensive team. Additionally, he switches in once:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 193-228 (53.1 - 62.8%)
Now, Cobalion will likely get to munch on those lefties at least twice, but high or even medium rolls can render that moot.
just to let people know that this isn't a switch-in
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 263-310 (102.3 - 120.6%)
Mega Steelix:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO / 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If Mega Steelix wasn't Mega Evolved as it came in, make that a 100% chance; additionally, what do you do back?
0 Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 226-267 (64.7 - 76.5%)
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 303-357 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
full-on Adamant spreads are o.k. but they'll be at, like 14% max, which is death for a mon as slow as Mlix anyhow. And not even KOing back 100% of the time is a real drag. I'm aware that there's some 200 attack 56 spD spread or w/e, but i'm not sure how widespread it is, and it's not avoiding the 3hitko and it's not always KOing back either so w/e
Rhyperior:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 168-198 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 237-280 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 232-274 (66.4 - 78.5%)
lack of recovery means you switch in about twice, once if the exploud user is willing to take that hit. Also, does Rhyperior really want that much SpD with moltres gone? noivern's meteor does a crapton anyhow so you're not much of a check; i guess elecs are running hp ice more now so you do have that in SpD's favor.
Bronzong:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 96-113 (28.4 - 33.4%)
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (93 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 132-156 (37.8 - 44.6%)
Solid.
Escavalier:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 94-111 (29 - 34.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Escavalier: 141-167 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 22.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 321-378 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 480-565 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 243-286 (69.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Double Solid. Note that i've used Restalk Escav; if rocks are up, just boomburst->switch out->boomburst->switch out->boomburst->switch out, and good rolls win it for you (you can force a rest very early on with good rolls.) And the other versions switch in like once (band not even that)
Cradily and Registeel:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 80-94 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 102-120 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Double Solid. Can't do too much back though (Toxic protect regi's nice)
Regirock:
wasn't ranked, but I did try it.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 118-139 (33.8 - 39.8%)
other stuff includes:uh...maybe, carbink? i always wanted to test that in RU...though the last time I posted a post like this, i had said that and I still haven't tested it. o well.
To Tl;dr: things that can switch in more than once are:
Registeel, Regirock, Bronzong, Cradily, Restalk Escavalier, and Rhyperior. Rhyperior switches in twice and Regirock isn't even ranked; Registeel and Cradily are c+ rank in the viability rankings (and having used both, i agree with that ranking). So, you can either run 1 of 2 mons, 2 more bad mons, or just accept that you will have to play very carefully around Exploud. Oh well though, at least a few of these mons can just counter exploud and you'll have no trouble at all, right...?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Surf vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 435-513 (100.4 - 118.4%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 432-512 (125.5 - 148.8%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 232-274 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 202-238 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Only Registeel can hold up to a super effective hit and still take 2 boombursts afterwards, and considering Registeel's lack of anything to do back, what's to stop Exploud from muscling right through it? Only Curse Registeel can be considering as anything close to a 'counter'. Furthermore, because of the sheer, ridiculous power (and passable Speed) behind Exploud's Boombursts, it's not that hard to make a prediction; every move you make is balanced on the knife's edge. something I like to do is to use SpD alomomola to scout; however,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 337-397 (67.2 - 79.2%)
this comes at a fairly steep price; i certainly can't do it twice in a row if rocks are up.
here's an anecdote for y'all: my team before the tier shift had SpD Alomomola, Cradily, and Escavalier. And yet, whenever an Exploud made its way onto the field (in the hands of a good player) i felt quite afraid. After all, it simply took 1 prediction on Alomomola, and I would have a 33% chance of losing a Pokemon. Keep in mind that I managed to run 2 'hard counters' to Exploud, which is no mean feat;i've never seen another team half so well insulated against it. And yet, i still wasn't safe by any definition of the word (especially if I needed alomo healthy for something else on his team). Any team with only 1 of these Pokemon would be facing constant 50/50s; if they lost their counter to these, good game would be nearly inevitable.
i've come to the point where i'm retooling my team, and i just can't afford to use a shitty mon just to beat exploud any longer (i love you cradily, but for real, you just dont do much.) So, it's time to act. Let's suspect exploud-today!
p.s.
dear god, i'm only talking about the specs set. Work Up sets just eat stall alive; sub work up, work up 3 attacks, and most frighteningly (!!!!) Restalk Work Up, which 6-0's me to hell and back and probably does the same to any stall team. These sets all share a suckage vs. offense (especially restalk work up haha), but they're so effective against stall that this isn't that amazing of a deterrent
p.p.s.
also i haven't even talked about Dugtrio support, which exploud can use so very well (who needs u-turn when you have the pressure created by WTFBOOM-BURST??not me)
so i've come to the point that i'm retooling my team so it sucks less, and i'm realising that, well, i can't afford to use some shitty mon just because of exploud any longer.
tl:dr
->Exploud forces you to use a pool of 3 mons or 3 other niche / unreliable counters
->Exploud can defeat any of these with a simple 50/50 prediction
->Alternate sets can invalidate entire stall teams
edit: I feel like responding to above topic- I don't feel like bulk up is particularly good either, it does possess merits over malamar that are noteworthy (not that you said otherwise), overall i'd rather use DD though. still BU can be ok against defensive / balanced teams, it's overall o.k. /edit
i'd like to re-open a topic of discussion. Namely, Exploud, and the brokenness it possesses.
I've talked about this before, and I don't really feel it's gotten the attention it deserves. I know people are going to be skeptical, especially since this mon only puts in work vs. stall. However, i'd like to at least have a serious discussion about this. To start with, I'd like to list off the things that actually switch into Exploud Boomburst (ru viability rank mons only)
note: i'll assume SR when I feel appropriate, and try to assume it as little as possible. in general though i'd rather assume they have it and you don't, especially if your SR setter is checking Exploud.
Cobalion:
Cobalion is fantastic in the meta, but i'd rather not use him on a defensive team. Additionally, he switches in once:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 193-228 (53.1 - 62.8%)
Now, Cobalion will likely get to munch on those lefties at least twice, but high or even medium rolls can render that moot.
just to let people know that this isn't a switch-in
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 263-310 (102.3 - 120.6%)
Mega Steelix:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO / 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If Mega Steelix wasn't Mega Evolved as it came in, make that a 100% chance; additionally, what do you do back?
0 Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 226-267 (64.7 - 76.5%)
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 303-357 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
full-on Adamant spreads are o.k. but they'll be at, like 14% max, which is death for a mon as slow as Mlix anyhow. And not even KOing back 100% of the time is a real drag. I'm aware that there's some 200 attack 56 spD spread or w/e, but i'm not sure how widespread it is, and it's not avoiding the 3hitko and it's not always KOing back either so w/e
Rhyperior:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 168-198 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 237-280 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 232-274 (66.4 - 78.5%)
lack of recovery means you switch in about twice, once if the exploud user is willing to take that hit. Also, does Rhyperior really want that much SpD with moltres gone? noivern's meteor does a crapton anyhow so you're not much of a check; i guess elecs are running hp ice more now so you do have that in SpD's favor.
Bronzong:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 96-113 (28.4 - 33.4%)
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (93 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 132-156 (37.8 - 44.6%)
Solid.
Escavalier:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 94-111 (29 - 34.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Escavalier: 141-167 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 22.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 321-378 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 480-565 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 243-286 (69.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Double Solid. Note that i've used Restalk Escav; if rocks are up, just boomburst->switch out->boomburst->switch out->boomburst->switch out, and good rolls win it for you (you can force a rest very early on with good rolls.) And the other versions switch in like once (band not even that)
Cradily and Registeel:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 80-94 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 102-120 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Double Solid. Can't do too much back though (Toxic protect regi's nice)
Regirock:
wasn't ranked, but I did try it.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exploud: 118-139 (33.8 - 39.8%)
other stuff includes:uh...maybe, carbink? i always wanted to test that in RU...though the last time I posted a post like this, i had said that and I still haven't tested it. o well.
To Tl;dr: things that can switch in more than once are:
Registeel, Regirock, Bronzong, Cradily, Restalk Escavalier, and Rhyperior. Rhyperior switches in twice and Regirock isn't even ranked; Registeel and Cradily are c+ rank in the viability rankings (and having used both, i agree with that ranking). So, you can either run 1 of 2 mons, 2 more bad mons, or just accept that you will have to play very carefully around Exploud. Oh well though, at least a few of these mons can just counter exploud and you'll have no trouble at all, right...?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Surf vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 435-513 (100.4 - 118.4%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 432-512 (125.5 - 148.8%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 232-274 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 202-238 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Only Registeel can hold up to a super effective hit and still take 2 boombursts afterwards, and considering Registeel's lack of anything to do back, what's to stop Exploud from muscling right through it? Only Curse Registeel can be considering as anything close to a 'counter'. Furthermore, because of the sheer, ridiculous power (and passable Speed) behind Exploud's Boombursts, it's not that hard to make a prediction; every move you make is balanced on the knife's edge. something I like to do is to use SpD alomomola to scout; however,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 337-397 (67.2 - 79.2%)
this comes at a fairly steep price; i certainly can't do it twice in a row if rocks are up.
here's an anecdote for y'all: my team before the tier shift had SpD Alomomola, Cradily, and Escavalier. And yet, whenever an Exploud made its way onto the field (in the hands of a good player) i felt quite afraid. After all, it simply took 1 prediction on Alomomola, and I would have a 33% chance of losing a Pokemon. Keep in mind that I managed to run 2 'hard counters' to Exploud, which is no mean feat;i've never seen another team half so well insulated against it. And yet, i still wasn't safe by any definition of the word (especially if I needed alomo healthy for something else on his team). Any team with only 1 of these Pokemon would be facing constant 50/50s; if they lost their counter to these, good game would be nearly inevitable.
i've come to the point where i'm retooling my team, and i just can't afford to use a shitty mon just to beat exploud any longer (i love you cradily, but for real, you just dont do much.) So, it's time to act. Let's suspect exploud-today!
p.s.
dear god, i'm only talking about the specs set. Work Up sets just eat stall alive; sub work up, work up 3 attacks, and most frighteningly (!!!!) Restalk Work Up, which 6-0's me to hell and back and probably does the same to any stall team. These sets all share a suckage vs. offense (especially restalk work up haha), but they're so effective against stall that this isn't that amazing of a deterrent
p.p.s.
also i haven't even talked about Dugtrio support, which exploud can use so very well (who needs u-turn when you have the pressure created by WTFBOOM-BURST??not me)
so i've come to the point that i'm retooling my team so it sucks less, and i'm realising that, well, i can't afford to use some shitty mon just because of exploud any longer.
tl:dr
->Exploud forces you to use a pool of 3 mons or 3 other niche / unreliable counters
->Exploud can defeat any of these with a simple 50/50 prediction
->Alternate sets can invalidate entire stall teams
I'm not too experienced with RU, but exploud is a wall breaker. The idea of it breaking down most walls isn't that broken because most times I played against it, I do have to sack a Pokemon, but exploud having no resistances and only decent bulk leaves it prone to revenge killing which is why I don't find it too hard. Its speed is also fairly slow, and with RU filled with decent fighting types, mostly because doublade and a lot of bulky psychics moving up, I think that hurts exploud in a sense. The point I'm trying to make is exploud is very difficult to wall, but that's because it is a wall breaker, but is left very prone to revenge killing. I know it's not a very good argument but the fact is it doesn't provide any defensive synergy with its traits unlike dragalge did back when it was in the tier, so exploud is only coming on a free switch and gets one Kill them forced back out. But I'm not the most avid RU player so I don't wanna try and act like I'm an expert.
I'm unsure about Exploud being ban-worthy, but I think it's worth mentioning that it has incredible synergy with Cobalion (sets up on Exploud's defensive checks), Spiritomb (traps some of Exploud's defensive checks with Pursuit, makes High Jump Kick ie THE fighting move risky, burns fighting types, generally makes revenging annoying), Noivern (shares a ton of checks/counters and U-turns out on Aroma/Mola to get Exploud easy kills) and Flygon (pressures steels, u-turns it in safely, has tailwind), all of whom are really common on offense right now. It also pairs well with band Emboar or LO Clawitzer if you just really hate stall.
Also it has decent bulk and can kill a lot of things that can't kill it without a SE move (specs Melo can't KO it with STAB, for example), so it's not that bad against offense/balance either.
For me, Exploud is definitely manageable. Most of the time it's Choice locked into Boomburst. As alluded to already, it has no resistances and only "decent enough" Speed to beat out most walls in RU. Other wallbreakers, such as Tyrantrum, Gallade, and Hitmonlee outspeed it easily and all possess the power to OHKO Exploud. There's also the fact that Exploud is vulnerable to ALL entry hazards and is forced out quite easily, thus meaning it can be weakened passively somewhat reliably. Exploud is supposed to beat most walls. That's why it's one of the top wallbreakers in the tier. However, it lacks the consistent effectiveness vs. offense (and balance to a lesser extent) to really be suspect worthy imo. And stall / defensive teams do have answers. As I said, it's usually choiced, so it has to predict switch-ins from the likes of Bronzong, Rhyperior, etc. to prevent them from forcing it out at the threat of major damage. Also note that Zong, the most reliable answer to Exploud imo, should almost always be accompanied by Wish support since it lacks reliable recovery (unless it's being used on a TR team of course!)
As for offensive teams, well, it's pretty obvious. As long as the mon out on the field can outspeed Exploud and isn't your win con, why not use it to push a lot of damage onto Exploud to keep it from doing much after the KO?
K, so i've read the reactions and here's my answer.
Firstly, the fact that it's breaking walls kind of makes it broken, since it forces you to have something that outspeeds and KOes, which is difficult as hell to fit on defensive teams. Even then, you really want to have a lot of faster mons that can hit it or it'll prey on the slower ones. That's only feasible on offensive / balance teams, which is my gripe with it.
secondly, hell yes mate. Exploud's underrated bulk also means that you can't just deter it by hitting it with, say, a sludge bomb on the switch-in once or twice; it has the bulk to sponge defensive mon's hits fairly nicely
Thirdly; i find that it's mostly choice locked into boomburst because it's being wielded by bad players-against good ones, as a stall player, i have to predict constantly, and good players will usually lead off with a coverage move, knowing the sheer amount of pressure created by Exploud. The defensive mons answering it are, like i said above, either Restalk Escav, Bronzong, or the kinda-bad registeel, cradily, and regirock (regirock isn't even ranked haha), or the subpar check Rhyperior. So it's pretty much 'use these 2 mons, or maybe 4 other subpar ones on occasion'. There are other pokemon that necessitate certain Pokemon to counter them, but most of them allow for some variety; exploud's sheer power coupled with Scrappy means that you NEED a specially bulky resistance, and only 2 types resist Boomburst. Keep in mind that even the above stuff gets mauled by a specs boomburst (outside of regi and i guess cradily), so they still don't love to take boombursts or anything.
And again, running something in this tiny pool of mons is nowhere near a guarantee-you're still liable to take a coverage move to the face. For example, bronzong should be paired with Wish support, as you say. However:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 202-238 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Let's say a medium roll; Stealth Rock damage, leftovers on the turn it switches in, leftovers on the turn Exploud switches out. Bronzong is at 40% HP.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 96-113 (28.4 - 33.4%)
Even Protect won't save you from being 2HKOed now, so you'd better pass that Wish real soon.
Of all the Pokemon in RU, only Registeel can tank an SE hit, then 2 Boombursts. Fine; it's still a c- mon, and unless CurseRest, it doesn't even have recovery-not a huge impediment, but still a noteworthy one.
I declined to go into Dugtrio support above; let's do it now.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%)
2HKOed by boomburst after this
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%)
Likewise, with SR up. Not even guaranteed to 2HKO Dugtrio, so it can switch in and hit twice potentially.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 213-252 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2HKO by boomburst.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 181-214 (48.1 - 56.9%)
4 SpA Cradily Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio: 182-216 (86.2 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
If you don't get that 12.5% chance, 2HKO by boomburst. your best-case is to recover-stall Earthquake PP, even if you can avoid getting crit twice you're out of recovery PP so Exploud can actually 1v1 you, considering cradily's lack of power.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 169-201 (49.1 - 58.4%)
2HKO by boomburst. Come in on the first sleep turn, and factoring Sleep Talk's chance to pick Megahorn and Megahorn's miss chance, you have a 48.231975% chance to just end it there. Of course, if you can predict a Rest (not hard since it really needs to rest against Exploud) you have a 71%~ chance, which is pretty lolworthy.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 168-200 (47.4 - 56.4%)
not like this is a counter, but 2HKO by boomburst.
In short ; yeah, Exploud might not do well against offense. But, he can often pick up at least 1 kill, and his performance vs. stall, I find, is just banworthy as all hell.
K, so i've read the reactions and here's my answer.
Firstly, the fact that it's breaking walls kind of makes it broken, since it forces you to have something that outspeeds and KOes, which is difficult as hell to fit on defensive teams. Even then, you really want to have a lot of faster mons that can hit it or it'll prey on the slower ones. That's only feasible on offensive / balance teams, which is my gripe with it.
secondly, hell yes mate. Exploud's underrated bulk also means that you can't just deter it by hitting it with, say, a sludge bomb on the switch-in once or twice; it has the bulk to sponge defensive mon's hits fairly nicely
Thirdly; i find that it's mostly choice locked into boomburst because it's being wielded by bad players-against good ones, as a stall player, i have to predict constantly, and good players will usually lead off with a coverage move, knowing the sheer amount of pressure created by Exploud. The defensive mons answering it are, like i said above, either Restalk Escav, Bronzong, or the kinda-bad registeel, cradily, and regirock (regirock isn't even ranked haha), or the subpar check Rhyperior. So it's pretty much 'use these 2 mons, or maybe 4 other subpar ones on occasion'. There are other pokemon that necessitate certain Pokemon to counter them, but most of them allow for some variety; exploud's sheer power coupled with Scrappy means that you NEED a specially bulky resistance, and only 2 types resist Boomburst. Keep in mind that even the above stuff gets mauled by a specs boomburst (outside of regi and i guess cradily), so they still don't love to take boombursts or anything.
And again, running something in this tiny pool of mons is nowhere near a guarantee-you're still liable to take a coverage move to the face. For example, bronzong should be paired with Wish support, as you say. However:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 202-238 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Let's say a medium roll; Stealth Rock damage, leftovers on the turn it switches in, leftovers on the turn Exploud switches out. Bronzong is at 40% HP.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 96-113 (28.4 - 33.4%)
Even Protect won't save you from being 2HKOed now, so you'd better pass that Wish real soon.
Of all the Pokemon in RU, only Registeel can tank an SE hit, then 2 Boombursts. Fine; it's still a c- mon, and unless CurseRest, it doesn't even have recovery-not a huge impediment, but still a noteworthy one.
I declined to go into Dugtrio support above; let's do it now.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%)
2HKOed by boomburst after this
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%)
Likewise, with SR up. Not even guaranteed to 2HKO Dugtrio, so it can switch in and hit twice potentially.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 213-252 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2HKO by boomburst.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 181-214 (48.1 - 56.9%)
4 SpA Cradily Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio: 182-216 (86.2 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
If you don't get that 12.5% chance, 2HKO by boomburst. your best-case is to recover-stall Earthquake PP, even if you can avoid getting crit twice you're out of recovery PP so Exploud can actually 1v1 you, considering cradily's lack of power.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 169-201 (49.1 - 58.4%)
2HKO by boomburst. Come in on the first sleep turn, and factoring Sleep Talk's chance to pick Megahorn and Megahorn's miss chance, you have a 48.231975% chance to just end it there. Of course, if you can predict a Rest (not hard since it really needs to rest against Exploud) you have a 71%~ chance, which is pretty lolworthy.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 168-200 (47.4 - 56.4%)
not like this is a counter, but 2HKO by boomburst.
In short ; yeah, Exploud might not do well against offense. But, he can often pick up at least 1 kill, and his performance vs. stall, I find, is just banworthy as all hell.
From what you're saying, exploud is a trouble for defensive teams, which it is, but that doesn't make it meta defining broken. Look at crawdaunt in OU, that thing has virtually no switch ins, it has the potential to 2HKO everything in OU, but that makes it an issue for stall. Against offense, it gets a kill them that's it. Now look at charizard-Y, this thing gives balance a hard time because it has a strong fire blast to break any non water type down, which it can use solarbeam. Again, it is dead weight against stall, and a lesser extent Offense because stall will always have chansey, which card-y cannot break, and offense it losses to because of its sub par bulk and only average speed. The point is that each threat gives different play styles a harder time, therefore when deciding to make a team with a certain play style, you have to account for different moms. Only one play style struggles with exploud, which means they have to prepare for it. A blatantly broken Pokemon is something that break all play styles with little ease. I'll use Mega Lucario for example. Against stall, this thing just set up on them and at +2, adaptability CC killed everything. Against balance, it set up on the wall balance teams will have and proceed to KO everything. Against offense, it's base speed was good (during X/Y) and could just muscle through HO just from the nature of the play style having no switch ins. I don't want to compare OU to RU, but the point I'm making is exploud troubles stall, but gives offense and maybe some balance teams little to no trouble, so that is just a threat that stall must prepare for.
From what you're saying, exploud is a trouble for defensive teams, which it is, but that doesn't make it meta defining broken. Look at crawdaunt in OU, that thing has virtually no switch ins, it has the potential to 2HKO everything in OU, but that makes it an issue for stall.
Mega Altaria, Mega Venusaur, Chesnaught, Ferrothorn, Mega Ampharos, and Mega Aggron can all switch into Crawdaunt reasonably well; additionally, its lacking special bulk and speed meant good stall mons like Zapdos and Celebi could revenge kill it; both of these mons could switch in as well.
Keep in mind that I still felt Crawdaunt was a bit too powerful (especially before Mega Altaria existed); however, you have legitimate switch-ins to it that have reliable recovery and are also great on stall, and it's much easier to revenge kill with stall than exploud is. And most importantly, it can't just muscle past Mega Venusaur with a 50/50 prediction.
Master B8s said:
Against offense, it gets a kill them that's it. Now look at charizard-Y, this thing gives balance a hard time because it has a strong fire blast to break any non water type down, which it can use solarbeam. Again, it is dead weight against stall, and a lesser extent Offense because stall will always have chansey, which card-y cannot break, and offense it losses to because of its sub par bulk and only average speed.
it's not even close to dead weight against stall; the fact that stall has only 1 solid counter (and no, not every stall uses chansey) means that it can do a lot of work against the playstyle. However, it's got a double Stealth Rock weakness, meaning you can easily lock it down. edit: and also, niche stuff like Mega Ampharos, and now Mega Altaria exists, as well as Heatran and ttar the semi-stops; when Mega Altaria didn't exist, dd zard x was used far more and zard y didn't get any spotlight.
Master B8s said:
The point is that each threat gives different play styles a harder time, therefore when deciding to make a team with a certain play style, you have to account for different moms. Only one play style struggles with exploud, which means they have to prepare for it. A blatantly broken Pokemon is something that break all play styles with little ease. I'll use Mega Lucario for example. Against stall, this thing just set up on them and at +2, adaptability CC killed everything. Against balance, it set up on the wall balance teams will have and proceed to KO everything. Against offense, it's base speed was good (during X/Y) and could just muscle through HO just from the nature of the play style having no switch ins. I don't want to compare OU to RU, but the point I'm making is exploud troubles stall, but gives offense and maybe some balance teams little to no trouble, so that is just a threat that stall must prepare for.
Against stall, mega lucario just gets walled by a hard wall (i personally lost very rarely to a mega lucario). Against balance, Aegislash or have a wall. Against offense...he cleaned up with speed, power, and most importantly priority.
Hmm, only excellent against 1 playstyle? Thats not banworthy at all...nvm it was offense, BAN! (this isn't a parody of you, just of the OU suspect process personally). And to be fair, he wasn't dead weight against stall or balance at all, and could perform very well against both of those playstyles.
however, it doesn't really matter anyhow; my point is that, not only do you have to prepare for exploud, but that the preparation offers little guarantee. If I could use X niche mon and just not give a single fuck about Exploud...maybe, but that's not an option. It's more like 'use crappy mon, and then predict really well'
tehy I have used stall often in the past and have experienced how annoying Exploud is, yet I feel like even if it is potentially broken (which it imo isn't because of reasons mentioned previously), there still is no reason to suspect test it as of now tbh because of the fact that we simply have Pokemon in RU atm that are bigger issues than Exploud. Exploud may threaten stall, but things like Cobalion, Reuniclus, and Noivern can threaten many different playstyles at once and are most definitely more meta-defining presences than Exploud could ever hope to be. A tier should try to set its priorities straight by suspecting the things in the tier that affect the meta the most before anything else, and suspecting a Pokemon that is neither common, nor is a huge threat to most playstyles, nor is impossible to beat for a certain playstyle (contrary to popular belief, you can play around Exploud to a degree) is not really doing the meta any favors when there are so many things that deserve more attention as of now.
Honestly, it just seems like you've been getting your ass handed by a well-played Exploud one too many times and now, in a completely different meta where many things are potentially worthy of a suspect test, you figured it'd be the right time to complain about it. The fact that you got outplayed a couple of times doesn't mean something is broken: it means some players are better than you, deal with it. Just screaming "BAN PLS" at anything that forces you to make predictions (GASP!) is not the way to go.
Oh and PS: idk if you noticed but I've seen a couple of top tier players run Houndoom on their stall teams, which proves that yes, you can actually run something offensive on your stall team. If you're weak to a threat, fix it. If you can't fix it with defensive synergy, find something else. Try to think outside the box, just slapping 6 defensive mons on a team and calling it a day won't cut it in this meta most of the time.
So now that I touched upon the things that are deserving of some discussion right now, how about we talk about this little shit for a bit?
I've been in favor of a suspect test for this thing for a couple of months now, and I won't change my mind on it anytime soon. Its CM sets can be ridiculous because of how great its natural bulk is and how it has reliable recovery and complete immunity to passive damage, making it hell to deal with, not only for stall, but also for pretty much all other playstyles. The departure of Doublade made it easier for this thing to start carrying Focus Blast, or even forgo coverage moves and run Acid Armor (a set that Nails brought to attention a while ago and is fucking stupid provided you run something like Dugtrio in order to kill things that get in your way (mostly just Dark types), after which you can just stack boosts with little worry and soon nothing will ever come close to KOing you). CM sets aren't even the only thing Reuniclus can do, for OTR still is a thing and can blast huge holes in offensive teams when given a turn of setup (easy to get considering this thing is bulky as fuck) and it can also pull off a lot of niche sets. It's versatile, dangerous against any playstyle, can sweep teams with ease with just a little bit of team support, and overall is just an unhealthy presence in the meta imo. A suspect test doesn't seem out of place now that the meta's starting to settle a little bit again, and I'd rather have this thing out of the tier sooner than later.
tehy I have used stall often in the past and have experienced how annoying Exploud is, yet I feel like even if it is potentially broken (which it imo isn't because of reasons mentioned previously), there still is no reason to suspect test it as of now tbh because of the fact that we simply have Pokemon in RU atm that are bigger issues than Exploud. Exploud may threaten stall, but things like Cobalion, Reuniclus, and Noivern can threaten many different playstyles at once and are most definitely more meta-defining presences than Exploud could ever hope to be. A tier should try to set its priorities straight by suspecting the things in the tier that affect the meta the most before anything else, and suspecting a Pokemon that is neither common, nor is a huge threat to most playstyles, nor is impossible to beat for a certain playstyle (contrary to popular belief, you can play around Exploud to a degree) is not really doing the meta any favors when there are so many things that deserve more attention as of now.
that's fair enough; however, i do feel that Exploud is banworthy. Maybe other stuff is more banworthy, but Exploud deserves attention too
robert alfons said:
Honestly, it just seems like you've been getting your ass handed by a well-played Exploud one too many times and now, in a completely different meta where many things are potentially worthy of a suspect test, you figured it'd be the right time to complain about it. The fact that you got outplayed a couple of times doesn't mean something is broken: it means some players are better than you, deal with it. Just screaming "BAN PLS" at anything that forces you to make predictions (GASP!) is not the way to go.
i haven't lost to specs exploud in a while, but i could've lost easily, because that's what specsploud does. The fact that i haven't played anyone good doesn't really mitigate that fact; even the 'good players' i've played rarely manage to outpredict me with exploud, but it just forces a good prediction every single time it comes in no matter what, even if you use niche shit.
i've wanted exploud banned for a while, and I talked about it in the last NP thread as well. However, I do feel like Restalk Escav has lost its main reason for existing on my team (Mabomasnow, since i can take care of clus with other stuff) and as a result it's just gotten even worse to deal with Exploud. don't make it out like i'm crying because i can't beat a mon
Robert Alfons said:
Oh and PS: idk if you noticed but I've seen a couple of top tier players run Houndoom on their stall teams, which proves that yes, you can actually run something offensive on your stall team. If you're weak to a threat, fix it. If you can't fix it with defensive synergy, find something else. Try to think outside the box, just slapping 6 defensive mons on a team and calling it a day won't cut it in this meta most of the time.
i've run a fair amount of offensive mons on my team
personally i wouldn't touch houndoom since it can't switch in on much but delphox and opposing houndoom, doesn't even really sweep against opposing defensive teams, sr weak and frail. however, i have run offensive growth, m-camerupt, even exploud. Ultimately though, if you use your wincon slot on an offensive pokemon, you lose defensive capability; you can't fully cover every threat in this meta with 6 mons, so doing it with 5 is -questionable-. I welcome stall+doom users to hit me up about it
finally i'm down for a clus suspect, but i'd like to point out the difference with clus and, say, exploud
is that i can use cm spiritomb-a mon that is frankly better than a lot of exploud stops-and just NOT GIVE A FUCK about standard CM. Reuniclus needs to go nonstandard to threaten me, and even then, it's not that threatening either
not saying it's less banworthy, but it's something you can feasibly lock down if you're willing to pay the cost
it's worth noting a real problem with clus is how easy it is to set up against defensive teams and not get worn down in general, and how little really switches in AND revenges it.
edit: don't forget about specsclus. In general people forget about that (and OTR, though you didn't :D), both of which are monstrous hole-punchers that are very difficult to wear down
The council isn't going to be suspecting Exploud. Unlike other wallbreakers like Pangoro, Dragalge, and Moltres that were banned/suspected in the past, Exploud is significantly easier to wear down and has very little switch-in opportunities. Furthermore, it contributes little to no defensive synergy, meaning it has difficulty coming in and firing off an attack vs more offensive teams, Pangoro and Moltres did have a few offensive Pokemon that they could swap into in contrast. Really, the only thing Exploud does that is noteworthy in comparison to other wallbreakers is punish teams that run six slow walls, and a team like that has a plethora of other issues aside from struggling a bit more with Exploud. Let's move on to a different topic now. Thanks.
Wallbreakers are broken when there is literally 0 drawback to them missing their guesses and they can come back in pretty much freely and dgaf about residual dmg. Basically you can try to outplay them all the time but they outlast your outplay attempts unless you run really specific counters to the mon which is Dumb. See: BW2 RU Nidoqueen .salt.
Exploud isn't broken b/c it locks itself into one move and fkin up the guess means you get boned because if your opponent is letting you get Exploud in for free they're either really bad or you're a god at double switching. If Exploud messes up on the first ~two times it's in then your opponent will outlast you and it does like nothing because realistically it should never get to come in more than that. If it gets played well it does 2340982 dmg and if it doesn't it just dies. Seems like a balanced mon to me o.o.
Regarding the suspect slate, I feel like Reun was more broken in the last meta, and stuff like Noivern (and maybe scrafty? i'd personally like both but w/e) should probably be tested first because they bring the power creep to such an incredible level and are hard to most teams to check/counter, Noivern being incredibly powerful and fast while Scrafty basically being a gg w/ 2 DDs or so mid- to late-game. I also think that Reun is pretty busted, but atm it's just that other/s seem like more obvious suspects.
sry if this post doesn't have much content but honestly i feel like most people know why reun/noivern are banworthy lol
The meta is actually kinda cool right now, even though there are some things that are definitely suspect worthy, which will be coming very shortly! But I wanted to talk about a cool defensive backbone I've been using on Balance that covers a wide array of the meta game right now. The core I'm referring to is of course Jellicent + Togetic.
These two Pokemon together cover a very large portion of the meta game between the two of them, particularly they cover the fighting spam that is very prominent in the tier right now, Jellicent hard stops Cobalion, which is obviously extremely good right now, while Togetic covers most of the rest of the fighting-types in the tier, the defense EVs ensure that Iron Head from max Jolly Scrafty is a 3HKO after SR, more can be put into defense if you have Noivern covered by something else. Togetic also walls Flygon by virtue of its typing unless people are real af and run Band Iron Tail or Band Thunder Punch. I really just think that Nasty Pass Togetic is better than all other variants on any team that isn't Semi or Full stall, as the defensive support sets just bleed momentum, where as with BP Togetic generates a lot of momentum. The Jellicent set is kinda strange but, the Speed EVs get you min Speed Alomomola, so you can taunt before it uses Toxic or wish, the SpD EVs allow you to live 2 Specs Noivern Draco Meteors if there are no rocks up and recover off the damage, in case of an emergency. With 8 SpA EVs, Jellicent always breaks 0/4 and 4/0 Cobalion's Subs (I actually think 0 SpA does too, but in case someone tries to creep me idk :^) ), Hex is actually really cool on this set, as it makes this set much more efficient in dealing with Reuniclus, especially now that Reuniclus likes to drop Shadow Ball and run Focus Blast, and obviously between Taunt and Hex Jellicent is defeating Reuniclus one v one, it gets a little sketchier switching in, but I think you /can/ come out on top, hex also just wears it down enough so that you can pick it off easier at the end. So yeah this is just a really cool core in RU right now that covers most Fighting types (watch for Virizion), Reuniclus, and the Dragons, which makes it extremely anti meta. Also sometimes against really slow ass teams bulky teams Jellicent can receive the NP boost and Taunt / Wisp / Hex the opposing team to death, which is actually really fucking funny, though rare. Watch for Sneasel and Electric-types, as this core needs something else to deal with those threats.
