Consumable Items

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Dogfish44

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This thread will be moderated with an iron fist. You have been warned.

I posted a wee while back asking to start a discussion on Consumable Items, which was met with a decent response, which leads me to open a more formal discussion.

Feel free to focus thoughts either around the points below,, or some other relevant points you wish to bring up.

  • Should ASB have consumable items which, after use in a battle, are removed from the user's item pool?
    • If yes, how should the problem of people regularly forgetting to remove items from their profile be addressed?
    • If no, how do we implement consumable items?
 
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Frosty

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I must admit that I fail to see why bother. Its not like anything is particularly unbalanced with the current "handle consumable items when you remember/be reminded of them" system. While if they become infinite, then we would need to handle retroactivity, RPs that use consumable items and a whole bunch of stuff. For something largely unnecessary.

So really, my stance on this is "don't bother". Don't bother super-enforcing this. Don't bother changing this. If you forget stuff just pull an atheno/leethoof and buy 50 of your desired berry/herb once a while.

Seriously though, if berries worry you, then I suppose I shouldn't bring up how CC is spent in 1047124124 different places (Betting on tourneys, TLR items on TLR threads and Raid items on Raid threads come to my mind) and like 0.0001% enforcement happens on them. Should we start playing big brother now?
 
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Mowtom

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I think changing this is way more trouble than it's worth, like Frosty said. Sure it would be cool to not have to buy the same thing over and over again, but if the only problem with the current system is that it's difficult to enforce, I would rather figure out a way to enforce it fully than completely overhaul it.
 

Its_A_Random

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The reason why people do not do it is because the only places where item losses actually occur are regular tower matches, TLR, and Tournaments involving the use of your own Pokémon (Correct me if I am wrong) and because it is only applied in so few places, people infer for whatever reason that infinite consumable items are already a thing which results in the lack of enforcement.

More visibility on where consumable item losses count and stricter enforcement is probably the best way to approach this "issue". No need to change something to something else just to accompany laziness.
 
I really don't see the issue with increasing the cost of consumable items and making them infinite. Like has been said half of the people here forget to deduct them anyway. It would just remove an added complication
 

ZhengTann

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Well, been more than 2 weeks since the last post, with two clear-cut options for us, so let's try to move it on.
initial slate said:
What should be done with the Consumable Items?
a) Keep the ruling as is and enforce it
b) Change the ruling to allow permanent Consumable Items with a price hike
Unfortunately, I'd rather we settle this in one go, so in the event that option b) gets through, how big should our price hike be? Personally I'd be fine with tripling or doubling the original price, and only buying them one at a time (no more "bundle of berries"). But if you happen to have other ideas, such as a reformed price list that ends up with every consummable having their prices in multiple of 5 CC, then be my guest.
 
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ZhengTann

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Second slate if option b) is chosen in the first slate:
initial slate 2 said:
What should the new prices on Consumable Items be?
Double (2x) their current price, and removing the bundle
Triple (3x) their current price, and removing the bundle
Remain as is, removing the bundle
I'm kinda slating whatever I like here, so seriously if no feedback in 72 hours we'll just close shop and move to Voting.
 

ZhengTann

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Triple-posting because I am in Council and nobody else (yes including you) seems to care enough to break the combo.
[09:56:47] Zt Last call: anybody has any suggestions to what the new prices on consumables should be in case it becomes permanent?
[09:57:27] Zt !seen avnomke
[10:01:40] Zt !asbmove sacred fire
[10:02:15] dogfish44 Zt: I'm inclined to say 10 CC? Like, the only really good berry is Enigma
[10:02:28] Zt !asbitem enigma berry
[10:02:36] Zt Double the price then.
[10:02:47] Zt 12 CC for an Enigma isn't half-bad.
[10:03:07] Zt And then Leet's gonna start getting everyone to buy all the bundles before the vote is over.
[10:03:08] dogfish44 that'd make sense. Leaves the starter berries at like 4 CC each
[10:03:12] Zt Typical economy.
[10:03:20] Zt !asbitem persim berry
[10:03:30] Zt Yep, starters would get 4 then.
[10:03:32] dogfish44 I might lock berry purchases once the vote's up.
[10:03:57] Zt Eh, personally I wouldn't mind.
[10:04:30] Zt IAR's kinda leaning towards no change, so unless Rain joins the change movement we're stuck in an impasse.
[10:04:33] dogfish44 as for how many, "Count the number of full or partial bundles you have, then subtract one for the starters"
[10:04:59] dogfish44 My thought is that the main reason said items never see the light of day is because people can't be bothered with the mess
[10:05:40] Rainman_Legends I'm for making them permanent
[10:05:44] Zt But then even if they do, I don't care if they've bought 50 Enigmas or 5.
[10:06:07] dogfish44 so if you have 6 Enigma Berries, that's 1 Full Bundle and 1 Partial (2 Total), so you get 2 Enigma Berries.
[10:06:13] dogfish44 That seems fair enough to me :u
[10:06:23] Zt Eh, they can have all 6 for all I care.
[10:06:55] Zt We can just control the economy by making them non-refundable.
[10:07:02] Zt evil Templar mode
[10:07:25] dogfish44 the starter berries tend to be worthless anyway (Outside of Leppa, see raids)
[10:07:38] |<-- Birkal has left irc.synirc.net:6697 (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[10:08:01] Zt Alright, I'm going to step further across the line and log this convo onto the thread.
[10:08:35] Galeroosting So the consumables are going to be double the price?
[10:08:37] Galeroosting Cool
[10:08:39] =-= Galeroosting is now known as Gale

Dogfish raised a few points that probably would be alarming to, shall we say certain people, mainly:
[10:03:32] dogfish44 I might lock berry purchases once the vote's up.
[10:06:07] dogfish44 so if you have 6 Enigma Berries, that's 1 Full Bundle and 1 Partial (2 Total), so you get 2 Enigma Berries.
[10:06:13] dogfish44 That seems fair enough to me :u
[10:06:55] Zt We can just control the economy by making them non-refundable.
Okay so that last line was mine, but the point still stands that there are weird stuff (some people call it logistics) to consider for this "perma-Berries" proposal. If nobody wants to hash out the idea then don't say that you are not prepared when the time comes.
 

Dogfish44

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"[10:04:33] dogfish44 as for how many, "Count the number of full or partial bundles you have, then subtract one for the starters"" is another relevant line.

I have no problems with modifying current item sets, however I also have no problem with just making it a 1:1 conversion.
 

Frosty

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Sooo...

I will slate this in 24h:

What should be done with the Consumable Items?
a) Keep the ruling as is
b) Keep the ruling as is and return to drawing board for specifics regarding enforcement
c) Change the ruling to allow permanent Consumable Items and return to drawing board for specifics
Just so we don't end up discussing stuff in vain in case a ends up winning. Also if b ends up winning, we will need to figure out how to enforce stuff.
 

Frosty

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So C won. hurray lazyness.

Anyway, points to discuss:

a) Changes to pricing
b) Changes to bundling (removing them actually)
c) Does this affect TLR Healing Items?
d) How do we manage the items already bought?
 

Dogfish44

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a) Pricing should reflect power levels - Zt had an idea of going for current * 3. I think we should move the currently non-bundled to 10 CC, Enigma to 20 CC, the 2 CC Bundle Berries to 5 CC, and the remaining berries to 10 CC.
b) Bundles will be removed because you buy 1 to get 1. Next.
c) TLR can decide as it wishes. I have no urge to remove the consumability of those items though - either way, this is an internal issue that can be resolved separately.
d) I'm personally in favour of "However many full bundles you have, that's how many you get". This is simple enough, although it'll be a minor pain to approve - long term benefits. Alternatively, we can just go with Zt's suggested route of "Just keep 'em".
 
Just chiming here to point out that the consumability of some powerful TLR items (Max Revives, Hyper Potions and (lol) Master Balls) is what keeps them from being overpowered in the first place. But yeah, perhaps it' best to not discuss it here^^
 

Its_A_Random

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Taking the TLR question (c) off the table as co-owner of that RP. TLR-specific items are not classed as normal consumables due to their RP specific nature and there is no reason to change it when the removals are enforced as such. If you want to discuss TLR Items and their consumable status, it is best to take it to the TLR policy thread. I also see no convincing argument for being not lost forever when consumed and doing so defeats the purpose of the RP being a dedicated CC sink among other balance issues which makes the topic not worth pursuing.
 

Frosty

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Thank you for the ruling. Since they technically are "consumable", I'd much rather have TLR treated explicitly instead of assumed. Since we already have enough assumed stuff here in ASB that end up only fueling the ass-u-me saying.


Now carry on for the other questions
 

ZhengTann

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Answering the questions the best I can - by drafting up a whole proposal for them. Or basically I'm putting what Dogfish already said about my thoughts in quote tags.
New Consumable Items said:
If this proposal enters the wooden box:
  • All Consumable Items (listed in the eponymous tab in NDA) will have their price doubled (x2).
  • The price will be for one item only, no more "bundles of any number" phrase.
  • The Consumable Items already claimed/bought and are in a trainer's profile need not change or be removed. So if you have 50 Enigma Berries, you shall still have 50 Enigma Berries.
  • Consumable Items are no longer refundable.
 

Mowtom

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ZhengTann why are they no longer refundable in your proposal? Iirc you can sell back any item, regardless of consumability.
 

Its_A_Random

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Mowtom: Because apparently profiteering and gaining 120-odd CC (assuming 20 CC per which is unrealistic) from selling those berries you got from long ago is such a huge issue that how dare we allow something like this to happen... -.-'

I personally could not give two hoots about this issue given I never supported this going through in the first place, just do not screw these things up.
 

Dogfish44

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External forces mean I want to push this through quickly. 24 Hours till voting.

How should pricing be changed?
a) Double the price of all consumable items
b) Triple the price of all consumable items
c) Move all consumables to 10 CC, except the 2 CC/Bundle (Move to 5 CC) and Enigma Berry (20 CC)
d) Leave as is, just removing bundling
How shall we retroactively apply this to bundled items, if at all?
a) For every full & partial Bundle you gain one "new" copy of that item.
b) No retroactivity - if you had 50 Enigma Berries in your profile, you remain with 50 Enigma Berries
Should Consumables be resellable?
a) Yes
b) No
If there's anything else that should be slated say so NOW.
 
Just here to say that I support the 1 bundle (complete or.parfial).= 1 berry. Except.leppa because please raids :(

Doing this qould also allow people to sell their berries, as the problem that iar mentioned would not exist.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
ive never once removed a consumable item from my inventory after 'consuming' it

if its really that big of a deal then i can run half a dozen flashes to get cc or something
 
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