CAP 20 CAP 20 - Wireframe submissions

[paintseagull]

After the success of the Plasmanta model and the positive progress in the general CAP modeling workshop, I'm excited to start up wireframe submissions for CAP 20! We will vote on the submitted wireframes (if we receive more than one submission) and then the winning wireframe will be finished in a collaborative way, under the supervision of the 3D coordinator. This way, the community has a say in what the final model will look like, but all the work is not put on the shoulders of an individual modeler.

Please note that in this thread we are taking submissions for wireframes only. If you're interested in rigging, UV mapping, or animating, please let us know, and stick around! Wireframe modelers will need your feedback when it comes to optimizing their models for these next steps.

Feedback and questions about how we are running this process are appreciated and encouraged!

Your 3D Coordinator is Yveltal

Rules

• Wireframes will be created in 3D Modeling software such as Blender (open source), Maya, 3ds Max or Zbrush. The software must be able to export to .obj (or another widely used and universally importable) format.
• Wireframes should be inspired by the winning design from the Art Poll and the Sprite Poll (if completed). It does not need to be an exact rendition of every detail of the design; "artistic license" is granted. However, drastic deviation from the selected art and sprite designs is discouraged.
• Wireframes should have polygon counts to mimic the style of Pokemon models in Pokemon X and Y. These models have counts ranging between 2,000 and 10,000 depending on complexity.
• Wireframes should be created using a neutral pose. Rigging and animation will need to be done at a later stage, so keep this in mind.
• When posting WIPs, please post screenshots or renders of your wireframe in a compressed image format such as jpg and host them on external sites such as imgur or puush. Please keep these images under 640 pixels in either dimension and under 200 kB for easy forum viewing.

Final Submission

All modelers must make a final submission post conforming to the following:

• The post must have "Final Submission" (in bold) as the first line, followed by three compressed images under 640 px in either dimension and under 200 kB. These images should give a front, side and 3/4 view at eye-level. The 3/4 view can be adjusted to best show off your model.
• The post must also link to the .obj file of the wireframe, hosted externally on a site such as dropbox. No lighting, textures, colour, or UV maps should be applied to the wireframe in the .obj file. (Submitters have the option of sending the .obj file privately to the Wireframe Coordinator if they would prefer).
• Wireframes that have extraneous details left out or which are still works in progress are acceptable submissions. The chosen submission will be edited later for detail and quality control. At this stage, the focus is on proportions, shape, and an appropriate pose. If their submission is chosen, a modeler may continue to work with the Coordinator on their model during the Quality Control stage.
• By making a final submission you agree to allow the modification of your submitted wireframe and for it to have UV maps, rigging and animation applied to it.
• Only make one (1) final submission post.

If the Coordinator feels that a wireframe is not suitable to be rigged or UV mapped in the future, it may be disqualified. Otherwise, all legal final submissions will be included in the poll.

3D Modeling Stages

• 1. Wireframe Submissions <- you are here
• 2. Wireframe Poll
• 3. Wireframe Quality Control
• 4. Model workshop thread (animating, rigging, etc)

Advice for Modelers

• Style (Wireframe) - Simplify details (especially eyes) whenever possible. Eyes and small details can be added as a part of the texture map.
• In the interest of time, submit a rough or low-poly model and leave fine details for later. The voters just need to judge the general proportions and style of the wireframe in this stage.

Main Design

--------------------

CAP20 so far:

Leadership Team:

nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader​

Concept:

Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
• How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
• For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
• Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
• How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
• To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?

Type: Water / Steel
Abilities: Water Veil / Heatproof
Stats: 103 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 95 SpA / 65 SpD / 97 Spe

 

[Yveltal]

I'd just like to talk a little about the model and the character before getting started:
This model has some really easy points and some really hard ones. Thankfully, most of the defining points of the model are highly geometric, and I expect to see lots of sub-object use to place the mohawk, shields and the oars/wings on top of the base model. I would also anticipate banking a fair amount of polygons into the neck and the joints on his limbs, because his animation will probably be simple but very weighted. Ideally, it'll help out our QC and rigging processes so you won't even notice anything wrong when we get to animating.

I'd encourage people to talk about their preferred practices for modeling while we work on final submissions, so we can share notes. I'll be doing one as well, because I'm more passionate about making it a learning experience than I am about finding a good model. Good luck to everyone!

 

[QxC4eva]

Oooh cool design! For wireframe difficulty I'd rate it 5/10 ~ similar to Necturna and Kitsunoh. I'd give it a go but I'm already busy with Tomohawk :(

Mos-Quitoxe (or whoever is doing refs.. if at all!) I think front/side/back/top/bottom view are needed this time, and ideally with x-ray vision like you did for Mollux shell. The top & bottom need not be to scale - they're only to show what's there. Congrats on winning the poll btw!

I'd encourage people to talk about their preferred practices for modeling while we work on final submissions, so we can share notes.

Well for me the idea is- everything starts from a cube. I move the vertices to fit the overall character shape, and add edge loops to get more definition. Appendages like arms are extruded out. I only make half the model, the other half is duplicated and merged in. That saves a lot of time, so yeah. Even Pyroak started off as

 

[Mos-Quitoxe]

Done at last!

 

[Birkal]

Just a heads up to animators, it would be incredible if this was prepared by the time the playtest rolls around (approximately two weeks). If the animation and model is completed, I'd be honored to throw it up on Pokemon Showdown for all battlers to use. No worries if not, but something to consider!

 

[Quanyails]

Final Submission

Files (contains .obj, .fbx, .ma): (link)

Wireframes:

• Front
  
• Side
  
• Perspective (with polycount numbers)

--

Original: I've been starting on it! A serendipitous synthesis of spare time, motivation, and mental ray not installing for Maya 2015 causing me to install the 2016 package which led me to play around in Mudbox and sculpt a draft for Naviathan has gotten me to this so far:

[image]

Left is low-poly, right is smooth preview (without any additional details). The oars and shields are not in place yet--the objects are just there for the future. Thanks to QxC for teaching me about how to make Mollux's feet curled--the same principles applied to Naviathan's tail.

Edit: First draft with polygon counts!

[image]

Edit 2: Submitting the model as a precaution.
Edit 3: Updated submission.
Edit 4: Updated submission to fix crest and enlarge head for render clarity. Here's a solid, smooth render for reference:

And a render done with the camera with its perspective from Mos's drawing here.

 

[QxC4eva]

Good stuff Quany, the proportions are great! I'd say pay extra attention to the edge flow on the legs - they sort of look a bit, uh, twisted if you get what I mean. The jaw hammer seems like it can use an extra edge loop as well. I did Tomohawk's tail yesterday and that also reminded me of Mollux. D:

*sees Birkal's annoucement*
*starts working on model without front view*
*sees Mossy's update after I finish* T__T

Well here it is!

 

[paintseagull]

In an effort to keep the dream alive of having a model for the playtest, and since we have two finished wireframes already, let's aim to close this thread by the end of the weekend (so Sunday evening). I'll let Yveltal set a more specific deadline if he wants, but if nothing else is said, when I get up on Monday morning I'll announce that submissions are closed. If anyone is working on a model and wants an extension, let us know ASAP! I am not sure if we will have a poll or not - we are thinking about the idea of having a short discussion instead where people can explain which wireframe they think is most suitable.

Tagging QxC4eva to make a final submission & link the 3d files :)

 

[Yveltal]

Sunday night, midnight Eastern StandardDaylight Time (GMT -4:00)

Let's do it. We'll have Memorial Day to mingle and pick our favorite.

psg edit: GMT-4 = EDT :)

 

[QxC4eva]

Final Submission

• Verts: 9845
• Edges: 19554
• Faces: 9750
• Tris: 19500

OBJ | Other Formats


-----

I agree that discussion is a better way to choose our wireframe cause there's a technical side to it. I only think polls should be used to decide on taste ~ not wireframes, but maybe for the final renders? Even a slight tweak on the lights, cameras or settings will result in a GIF that looks totally different anyway, so we'll end up with more entries too! :D

 

[Yveltal]

Unofficial entry, I just wanted to throw mine out there so I have a point of reference for the conversations in our next step.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/ob4dwi

Sry, he's nakes.

 

[paintseagull]

Just to clarify, submissions are closed, so people can start talking about which wireframe is optimal for us to officially choose!
I am busy today and tomorrow so I won't be around. I think it's ok for newbies to modeling to join the discussion too, but they should download the files and import them into the 3d software to get a good idea of what's going on with these. This discussion will be useful for those of us who are still trying to sort out the do's and don'ts of wireframe construction. Let's try to make a decision within a day or two if possible!

Both Quanyails + DJTHED and QxC4eva have completed unofficial coloured and animated sprites for us to use in the playtest - thank you guys for the extra effort and dedication! :) If we don't complete the "official" model in time, we will have one of these to use in our playtest, which is excellent news.

 

[QxC4eva]

For those who don't have a 3d program, you can move the models around on this webpage:

www.quaggle.me.ht/cap3d

You'll need Flash Player 11 or above to see it. Press the LEFT or RIGHT arrow keys to switch between models. I wanted to import Yveltal's one as well but my version of Maya can't open the file (maybe it freaked out cause it's naked XD) And I had to smooth Quany's one to get it displaying correctly.

I'll do a detailed review of each model a bit later. =]

 

[DJTHED]

Quanyails
I really like this model. The shape of the head is quite nice. The mane is exaggerated a bit too, which I like. I think the body itself might be a bit too unnaturally straight though, but that's not really noticeable unless you look at the model from top view. There's also of course the problem with the intersecting meshes and will cause problems with the outlines in Blender, but I've talked to you about personally already. Don't worry about that too much though, I'll figure out some way to get it to work out if this model gets accepted.

QxC4eva
I think the overall model quality for your model is a bit cleaner. However, there's a few problems with it that can hurt it when it translates into an animated sprite. The head is a bit too small IMO. I noticed this too with Quany's model when I was working with it, but Quany fixed that. Other than that I think the model is fine. Though the mane might have a bit too much detail for its own good. I think this is a perfect example of something that can just be represented in a texture. The spirals on the mane might also have problems getting rendered out properly because of how much geometric detail there is in one place.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I just want to preface this with the statement that I am a noob at 3D modeling, so my comments won't be at the same technical level as those by others. By now though, I think the PRC thread and my conversations with a few other people involved with this have showed that this is at least an interest of mine, and maybe someday I'll be a little less nooby. My experience so far is mostly with the remedial program Sketch Up and my skill with Blender is still absolutely terrible. I have never attempted animation before, but I talked a fair bit with Godsl4yer when he animated his Malaconda and viewed his wire frames and the such in order to kinda sorta see how the animation was done. Once again, just saying I'm a noob.

Quanyails:
Overall, I just really like the proportions of this model, and I feel it matches the concept art a bit better. Overall, Quany's seems to have a bit longer of a neck and a larger head/crest. The longer neck helps it match the concept art better, and while I think the head might be too big compared to the concept art, I also think it will make it easier to get the details in for the render. I had the opportunity to talk to DJTHED yesterday in the PS room and learned of the intersecting mess along the white part of the neck that goes all the way to the tail. I don't have much experience with how to solve this issue, but I do think that the overall "look" it created on the raw model is pretty accurate compared to the concept art.

QxC4eva:
When talking with DJTHED yesterday, the first thing I mentioned about your model was that the spirals on the crest would probably work better as texture. The spirals show some nice attention to detail within your modeling skill, but if we're exporting this as a small gif with outlines, I don't know how well it would carry through. Similarly, the little tiny notches in your feather oars might get lost to the outline as well. I saw your mock-render for a bit before it got removed, and I think (but can't remember for sure) that these notches didn't show up extremely well. Whereas I think Quany has a better proportioned neck, I do like the roundness of the actual boat/body on your model quite a lot. I also like how your oars "flare" out in relation to their position from one another, as it matches the art better than Quany's where the oars are parallel.

Overall, it's a tough call, especially since I'm a noob. In the end, I favor Quanyail's model by a hair, but not for really any "technical" reasons but more so because I feel she handled the proportions a bit better with the neck and head area.

 

[QxC4eva]

I'd like to say the situation we had was a bit unusual. The first reference picture was posted a few days before an announcement saying it'd be nice to finish it in two weeks. That kind of changed things up from being a competition of "who can make the best wireframe" to "who can get something out there first". It made me decide to do a speed model, and for Quany I think it got her working non-stop hard... which isn't an ideal thing. =/

Quanyails
What I disliked most about the model is that the scales (the part that runs from the bottom of the mouth to the tail) is a separate mesh. The only benefit is that it makes texturing easier, but in return makes binding and rendering a lot harder. For rendering it's the outline issue that DJ mentioned. For binding it's a gamble that the initial bind will do it perfectly, which it usually doesn't. And when it doesn't, we need to manually paint the influences to get it deforming properly. The problem of getting two meshes moving in conjunction is that we can easily get deformations where one mesh digs into the other, and throughout various ranges of motion, which is often quite hard to fix. For other parts, the oars look too flat and perhaps a little too thin near where they attach from; I've not seen the renders but that could lose some of their fill color to the outlines. The legs also seem a bit small and the body needs to be more curved. The feet have no webbing which deviates from the original design.

QxC4eva
The model has way too high polycount and excessive detail on the nose, mane, back of the shields, webbing at the base of the feet, and cuts on the oars. The polycount of just the oars alone already exceed 5000 triangles. The hind legs are very poorly posed; they should be facing out sideways considering the extreme angle they're depicted on the signature art. With how it's currently set up it's impossible to get it into the signature pose without running into bad deformations or having to increase the polycount even more. The legs are also badly attached to the body and leaves little room for movement outside of a limited idle animation. There's no gap in the mouth; the mouth is textured on so it can never open and will have to remain closed for the animation. Having the scales textured on has the disadvantage of being harder to UV map - as in keeping the outlines the same thickness from the mouth all the way down to the tail. For the purpose of a sprite render, it isn't noticeable, but if we're to use the model for other projects, it's something to think about.

Yveltal
I can't open the file so this is based on the screenshots alone - by far out of all three, it has the best looking legs, so if topology allows for it I won't mind attaching them onto the nominated wireframe. =P


About Mossy's original design and how it translates to 3d - yeah I agree with the above two posts saying it's not render-friendly because the head is small in relation to the body. But, DJTHED, isn't it more of an issue about the clarity of the eyes rather than the entire head? I preferred Quany's version before the head was enlarged, and I think the main problem at the time was not the size of the head - but the size of the eyes - that would affect render quality. We both had our ways to deal with this problem; Quany and DJ enlarged the head, while I kept the head the same but shortened the neck (which frees up render space). I think enlarging the head is a solution only specific to Quany's model, after having noticed the eye sockets and mouth were modeled in instead of being textured. I'd imagine that leads to some of the artifacts shown on Pyroak's head in the test render. But yeah, I'm a little confused since I don't think enlarging the head on my model (and getting the neck back into proportion) would be the best solution to go about it.

-----

In summary, here's what I think is a general idea of what QC has to do:

Quanyails:

• fix shape and proportions (medium workload)
• workarounds needed for the separate scales mesh (medium workload)

QxC4eva:

• remove excessive detail (low workload)
• increase leg and mouth flexibility (high workload)

Up to this point, I think both models are fairly equal with pros and cons. If the plan is to have a model that's more future proof to gen 7 revamps (etc), then Quany's is better. If it's to favor proportions and focus on only on the end product of this project, then mine is better. So looking at one last thing - polycount. It's quite obvious that Quany's has the better polycount, so overall I'm leaning slightly towards Quany's model.

 

[DJTHED]

But, DJTHED, isn't it more of an issue about the clarity of the eyes rather than the entire head? I preferred Quany's version before the head was enlarged, and I think the main problem at the time was not the size of the head - but the size of the eyes - that would affect render quality. We both had our ways to deal with this problem; Quany and DJ enlarged the head, while I kept the head the same but shortened the neck (which frees up render space). I think enlarging the head is a solution only specific to Quany's model, after having noticed the eye sockets and mouth were modeled in instead of being textured. I'd imagine that leads to some of the artifacts shown on Pyroak's head in the test render. But yeah, I'm a little confused since I don't think enlarging the head on my model (and getting the neck back into proportion) would be the best solution to go about it.

Well I personally think the head size is the issue. Before the head resize, I thought the head size looked pretty goofy when I compared my test render to pokemon like Dialga.
Original

Enlarged

I dunno, maybe it's just me.

You'll also probably notice the model detail around the eyes doesn't cause any sort of outline clutter. It actually looks quite nice having an actual outline there IMO.

 

[QxC4eva]

Oh it seems like I misunderstood. So you increased the head size to fix proportion, not to fix the missing render details - sounds fair enough!

Gee I wish we could post our final renders here rather than speculating. It seems like both of us are saying the other party can't do this and that, when secretly we know that each of us already have a finished render (so therefore must have got past all those problems). =P


Edit~ so do we make the proportions like Dialga, or the original design, or halfway between? I agree the head is a bit small in the first version, but the second one seems a bit too big.

 

[paintseagull]

QxC4eva Quanyails DJTHED I spoke with Quanyails earlier and I think it's fine for you guys to post your renders here! It will help you all figure out what's the best way forward. No need to stick with any hard and fast rules here if they don't serve us well, since we're still figuring out the best way to do this! I was only concerned about fairness, but I can't really see any problems with that in this situation. So feel free to post your renders that you guys did! We can hold a vote on them to decide which is used in the playtest.

 

[DJTHED]

Sounds good.

Okay, so here's Quanyail's model in a W.I.P. sprite form, and animated by me, and rendered out in Blender:

Not much to say about the animation itself. It's just a generic head bob animation that most 4-legged mons have, and it works for Naviathan.

 

[QxC4eva]

Very nice! :D Here's mine:

Hide

In other views:

Proportions:

And the result of the excessive detail of the mesh. The bottom two parts of the mane is a bit cluttered - but I think a texture would only make it less dark? (I won't deny the other benefits of making it texture though) The oar cuts are a difference of a pixel or two, so maybe lowering the polycount is worth the trade.

 

[hendrix96]

• hendrix96 passes out from the sheer awesomeness of the cap modeling teams skills

 

[Trox]

Wow, these all look great *__*

My own modelling skills are pretty much non-existent, but I'd like to bring up an idea for the animation:
I can't judge if that's too difficult, but wouldn't it kinda fit the design if Naviathan would move its oars?

 

[Yveltal]

So, without reading anyone else's critiques (And since I should have posted way sooner):

Quanyails in a nutshell, your original model doesn't really look "full" enough, if that makes sense. I think the legs need to be made bulkier, the shields and oars could be resized to better take up the real estate on Naviathan's sides, and I'd reshape and lengthen the neck just a bit. The positives are, the facial features look like a good size to be recognizable in a render, and your use of multi-sub-objects (the mohawk, the neck) gives it a nice depth.

QxC4eva I wanted to say this about your Pyroak model: In my head, your modeling style leans towards creating things with stuffed animal-like proportions. Your take on Naviathan is very robust with fuller, rounder features, and it makes him comparatively easier to look at. To edit yours so that it would be more on-model, I would say bring elongate the neck by bringing the head further away from the body and don't be afraid to create a little negative space in between the feet/legs and his tummy.

After reading everyone else's coments:
I'm feeling more partial to QxC's model. As far as QC goes, hers seems easier to start cutting down on polygons and the only thing it's really missing is some of Naviathan's stalwart-esque physique in the legs and "shoulders".

 

[QxC4eva]

So based on DJ's renders, I can point out a few more things about Quany's wireframe!

• The head does not suffer from clutter.
• The oars lose their fill color to their outlines at the proximal end.
• The lack of roundness of the body is unnoticeable.
• The lack of fulless in the shields and oars is barely noticeable.
• Enlarging the head gives it more like Dialga-like proportions than Naviathan's proportions (I guess there's a tradeoff between matching the official style and being faithful to the original design?)
• For the neck, the separate scales mesh causes no outline on his left, and an extra outline to his right.
• The legs look like they can be heftier in the wireframe, but being thinner makes the renders more clear.
• The flatness of the oars is further highlighted when light is cast on them.