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Don't Use That, Use This (CAP Meta Edition)
- Thread starter MQJinx
- Start date
| 54 | Forretress | 2.05929% | 157 | 2.059% | 137 | 2.282% |
come on lower ladder
Don't use:
Forretress @ Leftovers / Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball / Bulldoze / Volt Switch
Forretress suffers from being outclassed at its job in the CAP meta. In terms of bulky pivots that can remove hazards, Tomohawk, Scizor, and Colossoil are all better than Forretress: Tomohawk walls Necturna, Revenankh and Kitsunoh, Scizor has decent offensive power STAB U-turn, Knock Off to hit Ghosts, and Bullet Punch for priority, and Colossoil itself is extremely difficult to spinblock due to its Dark typing and large Attack, which can boosted further by Guts to block Will-O-Wisp. Spinblocking Forretress isn't too hard because of its lack of offensive power or reliable recovery (it has to rely on Pain Split). It is also specially frail without any investment, forcing it to invest if it wants any chance of living any special attack from CAP's hard hitters.
Use this instead:
Fidgit @ Black Sludge / Focus Sash / Red Card / Mental Herb
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin / Attacking move
- Encore / Taunt
- U-turn / Whirlwind
Now if you want a hazard stacker, this is one of your options. Fidgit has most of Forretress's supporting options, and while it has slightly less physical bulk, its increased special bulk makes up for it. Fidgit also has access to gems like Taunt, Encore, and Whirlwind which Forretress doesn't get. Taunt allows Fidgit to stop opposing hazard leads from laying down hazards and block Defog, Encore discourages setup and provides Fidgit with a free turn, and Whirlwind racks up hazard damage, especially if the opponent can't do anything to Fidgit. It can also Rapid Spin and provide momentum with U-turn, which absolutely leaves Forretress in the dust.
come on lower ladder
Don't use:
Forretress @ Leftovers / Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball / Bulldoze / Volt Switch
Forretress suffers from being outclassed at its job in the CAP meta. In terms of bulky pivots that can remove hazards, Tomohawk, Scizor, and Colossoil are all better than Forretress: Tomohawk walls Necturna, Revenankh and Kitsunoh, Scizor has decent offensive power STAB U-turn, Knock Off to hit Ghosts, and Bullet Punch for priority, and Colossoil itself is extremely difficult to spinblock due to its Dark typing and large Attack, which can boosted further by Guts to block Will-O-Wisp. Spinblocking Forretress isn't too hard because of its lack of offensive power or reliable recovery (it has to rely on Pain Split). It is also specially frail without any investment, forcing it to invest if it wants any chance of living any special attack from CAP's hard hitters.
Use this instead:
Fidgit @ Black Sludge / Focus Sash / Red Card / Mental Herb
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin / Attacking move
- Encore / Taunt
- U-turn / Whirlwind
Now if you want a hazard stacker, this is one of your options. Fidgit has most of Forretress's supporting options, and while it has slightly less physical bulk, its increased special bulk makes up for it. Fidgit also has access to gems like Taunt, Encore, and Whirlwind which Forretress doesn't get. Taunt allows Fidgit to stop opposing hazard leads from laying down hazards and block Defog, Encore discourages setup and provides Fidgit with a free turn, and Whirlwind racks up hazard damage, especially if the opponent can't do anything to Fidgit. It can also Rapid Spin and provide momentum with U-turn, which absolutely leaves Forretress in the dust.
Okay...
The CAP meta, and even OU, struggles with having a good Rapid Spinner that isn't weak to ground, ice, or both. If you want a team with a ton of defensive synergy, it is a flat out pain to get a good spinner, and some of my more recent teams have been stretched so thin that I have had to use Blastoise and Hitmontop. Pretty much every spinner in CAP has some sort of potential and some sort of flaw. Fort isn't an awful spinner (though he has few options outside of spinning and stacking) and his defensive typing is so different from Fidgit's that I think it's almost unfair to compare the two with such black and white terms. Really, I dislike all of our available spinners in some way or another, though Colo and Tomo are easily the best two.
The CAP meta, and even OU, struggles with having a good Rapid Spinner that isn't weak to ground, ice, or both. If you want a team with a ton of defensive synergy, it is a flat out pain to get a good spinner, and some of my more recent teams have been stretched so thin that I have had to use Blastoise and Hitmontop. Pretty much every spinner in CAP has some sort of potential and some sort of flaw. Fort isn't an awful spinner (though he has few options outside of spinning and stacking) and his defensive typing is so different from Fidgit's that I think it's almost unfair to compare the two with such black and white terms. Really, I dislike all of our available spinners in some way or another, though Colo and Tomo are easily the best two.
Vryheid
fudge jelly
So yeah if you're playing CAP and using Tomohawk you should really consider using Shed Shell over Leftovers/Rocky Helmet. Gothitelle trapping is so damn common in the tier, and teams that use it are often dependent on Goth as the only means to break through Tomo, so being able to freely pivot into something with Pursuit can be incredibly threatening. Tomo also doesn't really need Leftovers healing all that much because of Prankster Roost.
battle where this happens
battle where this happens
Alternatively, you can use Baton Pass over Shed Shell as its relatively easy to fit onto a number of Tomohawk sets and is a great momentum grabber in general. Its also superior to Shed Shell in every way as it can be used multiple times, doesn't require the opposing team to have a Gothitelle to be used, and is more reliable in general. Shed Shell's biggest flaw is that it prevents Tomohawk from switching into Knock Off easily, which is a problem when its the best check to best Knock Off switch in in the tier. In fact, most of the Tomohawk I've been seeing recently run Baton Pass, and its a lot harder to play against then Shed Shell.
Also, Tamas should have realized Tomohawk was holding a Shed Shell as soon as Bisharp Iron Headed Tomohawk and he didn't see Rocky Helmet damage or Leftover recovery. Remember kids, the easiest way to see what item Tomohawk is holding is to hit it with a contact move (preferably Knock Off). If it recovers some HP, its Leftovers; if your mon takes damage, its Rocky Helmet. If it none of the above, its either Shed Shell or Damp Rock. If it looks like a rain team, then 9 times out of ten it will be Damp Rock. If it doesn't look like a rain team, expect Shed Shell, and have fun trapping something other then Tomohawk.
Now that I think about, I wouldn't don't use Shed Shell if I can use fit Baton Pass onto a moveslot. Baton Pass is better in most cases, unless your Tomohawk is strapped for moves, like a weather setter set. If you feel like it can't risk the moveslot, and you really can't stomach Gothitelle trapping Tomohawk, then go right ahead with Shed Shell, just don't expect much from it.
Also, Tamas should have realized Tomohawk was holding a Shed Shell as soon as Bisharp Iron Headed Tomohawk and he didn't see Rocky Helmet damage or Leftover recovery. Remember kids, the easiest way to see what item Tomohawk is holding is to hit it with a contact move (preferably Knock Off). If it recovers some HP, its Leftovers; if your mon takes damage, its Rocky Helmet. If it none of the above, its either Shed Shell or Damp Rock. If it looks like a rain team, then 9 times out of ten it will be Damp Rock. If it doesn't look like a rain team, expect Shed Shell, and have fun trapping something other then Tomohawk.
Now that I think about, I wouldn't don't use Shed Shell if I can use fit Baton Pass onto a moveslot. Baton Pass is better in most cases, unless your Tomohawk is strapped for moves, like a weather setter set. If you feel like it can't risk the moveslot, and you really can't stomach Gothitelle trapping Tomohawk, then go right ahead with Shed Shell, just don't expect much from it.
Vryheid
fudge jelly
I dunno man I don't think Leftovers or Rocky Helmet are all that useful against good players since they tend to get Knock Off'd almost immediately by mons like Colossoil (which Tomohawk is invariably going to be switching into) and Tomo tends to get forced out by special attackers which don't really care about said items, whereas Shed Shell at least has some additional situational use (especially against stall teams). Tomohawk's biggest strength is the ability to smash a bunch of different team roles on a single Pokemon, so for me not having to put Stealth Rock on another Pokemon significantly strengthens my team composition. I've used BP Tomohawk plenty of times in the past and while its good, I always end up having to throw in other physical walls or Pokemon like Mollux to make up for the fact that it either has less utility or can't tank nearly as well. I guess it's a matter of whether you're more willing to sacrifice a moveslot or an item slot to deal with one specific threat, for me I'd rather give up an item.
Holy shit he is back
But to keep this on topic, wouldn't the Knock Off thing apply to Shed Shell as well?
Yea, i would have to agree. I love knocking off tomo's things with colo.
But, you're not going to switch in tomo against colo if you know shed shell is your only tomo defense against goth
But, you're not going to switch in tomo against colo if you know shed shell is your only tomo defense against goth
I'm going to have to side with Vryheid on this one. While obviously Knock Off can work just as well against it as against other items you will always know your opponents team, which lets you know immediately whether or not you need that Shed Shell. Tomo can also pair very well with numerous Pokemon, notably Megas, who also do not mind Knock Off, meaning that if the opponent is carrying both Goth and something like Colo, it is very easy to have alternative switch-ins early game. Furthermore, Shed Shell is significantly more versatile and useful for far more sets than Baton Pass, simply by virtue of being an item rather than a move. As already noted, most items on Tomo have minimal effect, as, baring Shed Shell with a Goth in play, you are always switching it into Knock Offs. As such, in running Shed Shell, you are giving up very little. Using Baton Pass, on the other hand, is giving up a move slot, which can be used for numerous other things, all of which allow Tomohawk to run different types of roles. Now, yes, Baton Pass is a perfectly good move for it, but it is just one type of set, and it can do far more different things without being forced to run it.
Vryheid
fudge jelly
Don't use:
Aurumoth @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Final Gambit
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt / Trick
Throwing out Final Gambit at the beginning of a match sounds good on paper, allowing you to potentially OHKO a defensive threat like Cyclohm which allows your Cawmodore or Talonflame to sweep. Unfortunately, smart players are often aware of this and may immediately threaten Aurumoth no matter what disguise it uses with a barrage of priority and u-turn spam. There's also the possibility that you get walled by a bulky ghost type like Sableye or Kitsunoh, which are immune to the move and wall this set entirely. Needless to say, Aurumoth should serve a purpose beyond Final Gambit if sacrificing itself looks risky, and being a decent revenge killer can be an excellent way to support the team. Unfortunately, while Aurumoth's 120 attack stat is repectable, Megahorn and Psycho Cut do not do enough damage to punch through the many physical walls which dominate the tier. Cyclohm in particular effortlessly switches into this set and threatens to OHKO with Fire Blast, and even type-weak targets such as physically invested Tomohawk takes as little as 50-60% damage from Psycho Cut. Standard OU walls such as Hippowdon and Rotom Wash can easily switch into Aurumoth, and a burn will cut Aurumoth's sweeping capabilities entirely. Because Aurumoth functions better early game and only has a few opportunities per match to gain the element of surprise, getting as close to OHKOs on as many targets as possible is necessary. Physical Aurumoth simply does not have the power or moveset to make this work.
Use this instead:
Aurumoth @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 172 HP / 84 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Psychic
- Close Combat
- Ice Beam
- Final Gambit
Final Gambit is a great momentum building move, and like above is still the centerpiece of this set. However, this also makes the most out of Aurumoth's excellent mixed attacking stats, allowing it to hit a variety of targets across the board even when its HP is weakened. Psychic does more damage than Zen Headbutt or Psyshock and hits many of the powerful physical walls in CAP on their weaker specially defensive side. It is especially useful in threatening to KO bulky Tomohawk after a slight amount of prior damage. Popular offensive threats like Keldeo and Mollux are easily revenge killed by the move, and most neutral targets take significant chunks of damage. Close Combat threatens to 2HKO Chansey after Stealth Rock damage and hits Tyranitar, Bisharp, Kyurem B and Assault Vest Colossoil harder than anything else in its arsenal. Ice Beam is what makes this set really shine, however, as with a little investment it has enough power to OHKO support Landorus T, dent dangerous sweepers like Thundurus, Tornadus and Latios, and rip through the bulky Tomohawk/Cyclohm/Colosoil core which dominates the meta. Blizzard is risky but can be used to score a OHKO against the incredibly popular tanky Garchomp set.
While the lack of a Bug type move severly limits the ability of this set to punch through bulky Psychic types like Cresselia or Mega Gardevoir, Aurumoth can be combined with Colossoil to create an incredibly devastating wallbreaking core. Colossoil can support Aurumoth by bouncing back or removing hazards and revenge killing faster Scarf users, while at the same time appreciating Aurumoth's ability to effortlessly remove bulky physical walls. The few Pokemon that this duo cannot break through- namely bulky fairies, bulky waters and fighting neutral steel types such as Skarmory and Scizor are all disposed of by Magnezone, making it another useful teammate option.
The EVs chosen allows Aurumoth to take down every relevant threat in CAP with Final Gambit when Stealth Rock is up, and OHKO even fully invested base 100s at full health. Max speed is used to outrun as many threats as possible and to ensure a speed tie with opposing +1 Aurumoth (which can actually be 2HKO by Ice Beam if SR is up).
Aurumoth @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Final Gambit
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt / Trick
Throwing out Final Gambit at the beginning of a match sounds good on paper, allowing you to potentially OHKO a defensive threat like Cyclohm which allows your Cawmodore or Talonflame to sweep. Unfortunately, smart players are often aware of this and may immediately threaten Aurumoth no matter what disguise it uses with a barrage of priority and u-turn spam. There's also the possibility that you get walled by a bulky ghost type like Sableye or Kitsunoh, which are immune to the move and wall this set entirely. Needless to say, Aurumoth should serve a purpose beyond Final Gambit if sacrificing itself looks risky, and being a decent revenge killer can be an excellent way to support the team. Unfortunately, while Aurumoth's 120 attack stat is repectable, Megahorn and Psycho Cut do not do enough damage to punch through the many physical walls which dominate the tier. Cyclohm in particular effortlessly switches into this set and threatens to OHKO with Fire Blast, and even type-weak targets such as physically invested Tomohawk takes as little as 50-60% damage from Psycho Cut. Standard OU walls such as Hippowdon and Rotom Wash can easily switch into Aurumoth, and a burn will cut Aurumoth's sweeping capabilities entirely. Because Aurumoth functions better early game and only has a few opportunities per match to gain the element of surprise, getting as close to OHKOs on as many targets as possible is necessary. Physical Aurumoth simply does not have the power or moveset to make this work.
Use this instead:
Aurumoth @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 172 HP / 84 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Psychic
- Close Combat
- Ice Beam
- Final Gambit
Final Gambit is a great momentum building move, and like above is still the centerpiece of this set. However, this also makes the most out of Aurumoth's excellent mixed attacking stats, allowing it to hit a variety of targets across the board even when its HP is weakened. Psychic does more damage than Zen Headbutt or Psyshock and hits many of the powerful physical walls in CAP on their weaker specially defensive side. It is especially useful in threatening to KO bulky Tomohawk after a slight amount of prior damage. Popular offensive threats like Keldeo and Mollux are easily revenge killed by the move, and most neutral targets take significant chunks of damage. Close Combat threatens to 2HKO Chansey after Stealth Rock damage and hits Tyranitar, Bisharp, Kyurem B and Assault Vest Colossoil harder than anything else in its arsenal. Ice Beam is what makes this set really shine, however, as with a little investment it has enough power to OHKO support Landorus T, dent dangerous sweepers like Thundurus, Tornadus and Latios, and rip through the bulky Tomohawk/Cyclohm/Colosoil core which dominates the meta. Blizzard is risky but can be used to score a OHKO against the incredibly popular tanky Garchomp set.
While the lack of a Bug type move severly limits the ability of this set to punch through bulky Psychic types like Cresselia or Mega Gardevoir, Aurumoth can be combined with Colossoil to create an incredibly devastating wallbreaking core. Colossoil can support Aurumoth by bouncing back or removing hazards and revenge killing faster Scarf users, while at the same time appreciating Aurumoth's ability to effortlessly remove bulky physical walls. The few Pokemon that this duo cannot break through- namely bulky fairies, bulky waters and fighting neutral steel types such as Skarmory and Scizor are all disposed of by Magnezone, making it another useful teammate option.
The EVs chosen allows Aurumoth to take down every relevant threat in CAP with Final Gambit when Stealth Rock is up, and OHKO even fully invested base 100s at full health. Max speed is used to outrun as many threats as possible and to ensure a speed tie with opposing +1 Aurumoth (which can actually be 2HKO by Ice Beam if SR is up).
Time to wake this thread up
I've been sadly seeing a lot of this stratagem on the lower ladder.
Don't Use
@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Ancientpower
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Energy ball
Use This
@ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Ancient Power
- HP Flying/Fire Blast
- Earth Power/Energy Ball
- Vacuum Wave/Any Move from above
This stratagem is a lot better. It is not locked into scarf and does a lot more damage due to life orb and technician boosting ancientpower, vacuum wave, and HP flying. Vacuum Wave allows you to have one of the fastest priority moves in the game. Earth Power hits mollux hard, while energy ball can be used to cover water types and hit colossoil
I've been sadly seeing a lot of this stratagem on the lower ladder.
Don't Use
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Ancientpower
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Energy ball
Use This
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Ancient Power
- HP Flying/Fire Blast
- Earth Power/Energy Ball
- Vacuum Wave/Any Move from above
This stratagem is a lot better. It is not locked into scarf and does a lot more damage due to life orb and technician boosting ancientpower, vacuum wave, and HP flying. Vacuum Wave allows you to have one of the fastest priority moves in the game. Earth Power hits mollux hard, while energy ball can be used to cover water types and hit colossoil
While I certainly agree with you that Choice scarf on Strata is a very silly item choice, and that the actual overall set you are replacing is mostly dumb, much of the changes you made are about what kind of set you want to use, and not its effectiveness. That's not to say that the set you provided is not good, but really, if you are looking at simple replacements, the change to Life Orb is really the most important part. Levitate and Technician are both perfectly viable ability choices, and just about every move in either set is a fine options, so long as the rest of the set supports it.
But yeah.... don't use Scarf Strata, and use Paleo Wave with Levitate, not Ancient Power (heck, even use Paleo Wave sometimes with Technician. The PP is often, but not always, more valuable than the 5 power and 10% stat chance).
But yeah.... don't use Scarf Strata, and use Paleo Wave with Levitate, not Ancient Power (heck, even use Paleo Wave sometimes with Technician. The PP is often, but not always, more valuable than the 5 power and 10% stat chance).
