Substitutions and Cooldown

[Frosty]

For Reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/substitutions-and-cooldown-freeze-sleep-etc.3538392/

Consider the following orders:
Awesomon: Cooldown | Ice Punch | Thunder Punch
If Togekiss uses Encore, use Dodge on the first instance and Chill on the second. Push back actions each time.

Question 1: If Togekiss uses Encore A1, should we consider as the sub being triggered or not?
a) Yes
b) No

(please state why for future reference)

after that those are the possible questions

IF Question 1 is yes:

Question 2: So the sub was triggered A1. The sub has a "push back" clause. What should be done with it?
a) Cooldown is read as "Struggle", so Struggle is pushed back to A2
b) Cooldown can't be pushed back, so the sub is illegal
c) Sub is fine, but the push back part has no effect here

IF Question 1 is no

Question 3: If Encore is used A1 and then A3, which move should be called A3?
a) Dodge, since it was the first instance that sub was activated
b) Chill, since it was the second instance Encore was used

Its_A_Random
Rediamond
Rainman Legends
Dogfish44
ZhengTann


EDIT: Please continue voting until at least 4 votes are given. Even if the first three agree. There is a reason for that.

 

[Dogfish44]

Yes

This is a combination of my reading of "Cooldown" as an illegal order, and that substitutions should be made specific. As long as we treat cooldown as a status - and I feel we should - this gives another option to those ordering first, which I believe should never be disputed.

 

[Pallas Athena]

No

Since the Pokemon couldn't move at all I don't think it could use a move, meaning that any sub it requested would be basically illegal and not trigger. I think a lot of this comes down to whether we view a Pokemon as non-responsive and effectively out of play when cooling down or if we view it as just under a temporary condition that would prevent it from using a sub, i.e. taunt.

 

[Rainman Legends]

Yes

I feel the move in whatever you put in Cooldown (INSERT) counts. its what the pokemon would do if it wasnt in cooldown regarding subs and regular actions.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Yes

This is why we have a clause that allows you to limit the action-set like "IF Encore is used A2/A3, THEN use Dodge on the fist instance, Chill on the second instance, pushing actions back"; it makes the substitution different and lessens the scope for abuse. If you do not want the sub to happen on the cooldown action, then make it so it does not happen on the action you are guaranteed to cooldown. Even if you are cooling down, the conditions for the substitution are still technically met and hence, can trigger even though it cools down anyway. It is that simple.

 

[ZhengTann]

No

What Red said. But majority is already Yes so we'll just have to write "AND not under cooldown" if we want to avoid that pothole. Moving on.

* * * * * * * *​

Question 2: So the sub was triggered A1. The sub has a "push back" clause. What should be done with it?
a) Cooldown is read as "Struggle", so Struggle is pushed back to A2
b) Cooldown can't be pushed back, so the sub is illegal
c) Sub is fine, but the push back part has no effect here

a) Cooldown is read as "Struggle", so Struggle is pushed back to A2

Because you can type something like combo cooldown (Aura Sphere) to avoid that kind of screw-ups in the first place.

 

[Dogfish44]

a) Cooldown is read as "Struggle", so Struggle is pushed back to A2

Quite.

 

[Rainman Legends]

a) Cooldown is read as "Struggle", so Struggle is pushed back to A2
This is why we put Cooldown (Move) here

 

[Its_A_Random]

c) Sub is fine, but the push back part has no effect here

Not that it matters at this point since Struggle already achieved a majority. This was also my original interpretation of the sub that lead to this with the logic being that you cannot push back a de-buff like Cooldown, so that part of the sub was ignored but the rest of the substitution was fine; staying faithful as you may. The majority opinion presents valid arguments and I respect that.

 

[Frosty]

I know there is majority, but I'd like to get Rediamond 's vote.

 

[Pallas Athena]

c)

Seconding IAR. And it seems like an unusually harsh penalty for a syntax error based in a relatively obscure ruling.