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i dont get how you worry it will take over the ladder since untill top 19 you get shit like snorlax, most of the players on the ladder are terrible enough. you should probably ask if this core is broken. obviosly it isnt. your only weapon vs steels is eq, then you have to switch rachi, since they can protect on your protect etc. yes i agree there is only a few mons that can take the core on by itself. but this is doubles. you can use two mons to beat the opposing core. look at terrakion shaymin. how many mons can songehandly take them on? i think the jirachi mance argumnet is kinda dumb.
this is one of the biggest reasons why i'd love to see salamence stay banned. the fact that salamence + jirachi is such a powerful core is no big deal, there are things that work around it, it's always like that and people will keep preparing for these threats;
this is bad though
this is in my opinion too centralizing, every team just needs 2 pokemon simply devoted to beating the salamence + jirachi core, this means that each time is going to run a small selection of pokemon to beat these pokemon, which means that teams will be looking the same a lot more, that's just kinda what i think of it and it I might be very wrong but still. I feel like in the current metagame you have freedom to build creative teams which are good, with adding mega-salamence to the metagame, some of the creativity will be gone.
I feel like this metagame is already perfectly balanced as it is right now and I feel like unbanning Mega-Salamence will only bring harm to this metagame, rather than making it healthier, which should be the point of suspect tests. It might be like Mega-Kanga, a lot of suspect tests and in the end not getting banned, but I feel like Mega-Salamence is just way too strong
So after about 25 games, I am leaning towards keep banned for many reasons.
1. Mence is SUPER overcentralizing. As stated many times before, the mence + rachi core is really effective and pretty hard to beat too. You really do need 2 (or more) pokemon just to beat that core, not to mention your opponent still has 4 Pokemon in the back who can possibly beat your two answers to the core. When teambuilding for reqs, I find myself using unorthodox things like HP Ice Skymin just because I don't have anything that can check mence. In the hands of a good player, mence is super threatening and can sweep teams no problem.
2. Mence has insane stats. Base 120 speed and 145 attack is crazy enough, but when you combine that with base 95 HP and base 130 defense with intimidate, that is insane. No offensive Pokemon should have defensive stats that high. Even if you're running max speed max attack mence, which I strongly suggest you not, it's base bulk can allow it to take hits like Rock Slide almost no problem which means that it can easily set up a Dragon Dance. Oftentimes, I find myself sweeping teams just after one Dragon Dance.
3. Mence has very few counters. People have mentioned steel-types a lot for the mence + rachi core but really what steel types are there? Heatran can't do anything back unless you're running HP ice and even then, mence can carry Earthquake to deal with it. Aegislash forces you to play mind games since you don't know whether your opponent will Dragon Dance on your kings shield or attack (and again EQ doesn't make contact so...). Rachi can redirect redirect and tank all of Metagross's attacks. You're pretty much going to be relying on a spread move to beat mence effectively but as shown by kamikaze17, unboosted mence can OHKO both garde and sylveon, rachi can beat diancie, and rachi deals with Terrakion while mence can 2HKO scarf Landorus. Even Mence's checks aren't that effective since Rachi can just redirect the hit. Even if you take Rachi out of the equation, there are still other Pokemon that work really well with mence and can beat its checks no problem, such as Aegislash. Mence also has many viable sets such as DD + 2 Attacks, Sub DD, bulky DD, mixed, and special.
I know that 25 games isn't really a big enough number of battles to determine whether mence is broken or not but I think that even if I play more games, I'll still come to the same conclusion. All in all, I feel the metagame is fine right now, putting Mence back will just harm it.
ye i love the meta rn, when i build i usaly dont get limited by popular threads, i dont want it to change. ill play my games, if rachi mence core is sth that ill change that ill vote ban
Trick Room is good, but it's probably even better now with a prominent speed demon like this around. Pokemon like Rhyperior, Sylveon, and Mega Abomasnow can immediately put the brakes on Mega Salamence's rampage with their respective STAB-boosted spread moves (Sylveon is esp. good b/c Hyper Voice bypasses subs). If there is more than one turn of TR left, Mega Mence would be forced out (except against Rhyperior that was intimidated).
Has anybody tried laddering with a TR team? It's not the only way of beating a team with Mega Mence, but probably the path of least resistance.
My TR usage has been very successful in repelling salamence on the ladder. I do think the higher usage of mence and the lower usage of kangaskhan which is a very big threat to Trick room is very good for the Semi-room or Full Trick room strategy overall.
mence is only one mpn so i dont think tr or hail would get much better its just another free kill. i dont think tr has any benifit from mence tho, since double edge can heavly dmg the setters, prevent the tr from going up
I might as well share some observations and helpful references that may help all of you decide to BAN or UNBAN Salamence.
The suspect topic that I'll be sharing to all of you is:
SALAMENCE-MEGA + THE WEATHER WARS
Summary:This topic aims to share my observations and my experiences with using Salamence inside a weather based Doubles team. This was my first idea of having Mega Mence on any kind of team, since from what I notice, there is more usage of Sun teams over Rain teams. Although rain has more viable Rain sweepers, it's undeniable that Sun is the more tactical and more useful weather archetype right now. However, the addition of Salamence-Mega can simply ease Rain's match-ups not only in Sun, but also against other Rain threats, which may just balance the usage of Sun and Rain.
Analysis: Now, based after most of my matches with my Mence Rain team (I do not post a lot of replays on it cause most DOU ladder players are either trolls or using very obvious strats such as Discharge + Lightning Rod Electrics), it seems that Mega Salamence is a very helpful Pokemon that can work for Rain teams. Now, you may be asking, why's that?
Imagine a sachet of Nescafe 3-in-1 Coffee (or 2-in-1 if you don't want the extra Coffee Mate). It's got 3 easy components, right? There's the coffee, the most important thing, and the reason why you bought it. It's really good especially once you start drinking it. Second, there's the sugar. Of course, there's no modern coffee without sugar. Your coffee will taste bland and sour without at least a little sugar on it. Third, the additional Coffee Mate (exclusive for Nescafe). It makes your coffee look and taste quite milky, and gives off the little cream which makes it a bit sweet. Now, why am I relating this topic to a sachet of retailed coffee?
Well that is the point of the statement above. Mega Salamence acts as the sachet of Nescafe 3-in-1 Coffee, meaning Salamence can fulfill 3 important roles for the success and overpowering of Rain teams. Now to further discuss, what are those 3 things?
1. Charizard Y Switch-in/Killer. This is one of the most important threats every single Rain team has to deal with. Charizard Y, as known even before, can simply turn the tides of a weather war with opposing weather archetypes to its favor. This turns Rain sweepers such as Ludicolo and the uncommon Mega Swampert get deemed near to total uselessness without the speed boost from Rain.
Normally, Rain users would have to deal with Zard Y with a fast electric type (give in Thundurus-T and Mega Manectric) that would outspeed this burning lizard. Well, fear no more! Salamence-M is your new anti-Zard tool! Not only does Mega Mence get rid of it, but it also switches in with little to no pain at all! This is basically why I mentioned that Salamence is coffee. It's the reason why you bought a sachet of Nescafe, which is also the main reason why Mence can be a helpful threat to Rain.
2. Bulky Grass Killer. Another thing that Rain would have a problem with if you don't have the correct wild cards (normally Latios or Talonflame), you'd have another problem with these things. Bulky Grass types are really annoying to handle for most Rain teams. Other newer players may say "Ludicolo has Ice Beam, so why not?". Well, even these can tank at the minimum of 2 Ice Beams (especially Mega Venusaur). Normally, there will be the "wild card" for every slot 6 of Rain teams, which include threats like Talonflame and Latios. However, if any certain Rain team cannot have any of the aforementioned wild cards (maybe there's more, but we may never know), it's certainly difficult for Rain to deal with these.
Like what I mentioned a while ago, sugar can make coffee taste better, because coffee is bitter. And without sugar, coffee will remain having a really bland and bitter taste. Salamence does the same for Rain. If it isn't for Aerilate + STAB Return/Frustration/Double Edge/Hyper Voice, Rain will have a very bland match against these big threats.
3. Intimidate. If there is something else that Rain wants, then that is Intimidate. It turns Rain's physical wall, Politoed, into a ridiculously good wall to things such as Mega Kangaskhan, Landorus and a lot more. Although Salamence is [quite] outclassed as an Intimidate spreader in its normal form by other things like Hitmontop and Scrafty, which normally can perform other roles such as Support and Trick Room defeater respectively, Salamence is still a good Pokemon that can spread Intimidate. This is also why I mentioned it's the Coffee Mate of a Rain team with Mega Mence. You may need it or not, depending if you want to use it.
In General: We can therefore make the following conclusions after knowing all of these information:
- Salamence-Mega can fill 3 roles for Rain teams in 1 Pokemon: Zard Y killer, Bulky Grass killer and Intimidate spreader.
-Sun team players should become aware of Salamence + Jirachi in Rain. They may never know if it'll be Sitrus/Goggles + Follow Me Rachi.
-Rain, at some extent, can overcentralize weather teams with the Salamence + Jirachi combo.
Trickroom is just too much an effort and overcentralization to kill mence. Mence can switch out to heatran/aegislash/volcarona and let jirachi weaken the abomasnow/sylveon. Not to mention that the mence user can just run an anti tr mon like bisharp, and jirachi itself is annoying for tr setters with iron head.
This is a good replay I just had vs Mega Mence and I figured I'd post it here. I'm not skilled enough in Pokemon to talk about the replay and I'm pretty sure I'll talk shit if I do end up analysing the replay so I'm leaving it here so you guys can do it.
The reason I think analysing this replay would be good is because I managed to deal with a very well built Mence team by simply making good switches to keep mence at bay while keeping up pressure, only to finish him off afterward.
So after laddering on the suspect ladder, and after facing Jirachi after Jirachi of Salamence teams, I'm going to give my input on Mega Salamence in our current metagame. I believe that Mega Salamence in our current doubles metagame is broken and should be kept banned. Based off of what I have seen, the main reasons for megamence being as broken as it is its over-the-top combination of speed and defense stats. Mega Salamence's base speed of 120 allows it to outspeed other fast threats that would otherwise be a decent check to it, such as Mega Metagross, Latios, Terrakion, and Mega Diancie (beware the aqua tail!!!). It can outspeed these threats either by running max speed or by setting up with Dragon Dance. Due to the fact that its only faster checks are Deoxys-A, Darkrai, and Shaymin-S (all of which are a far cry from switch-ins!!), one would have to be forced to run multiple bulky switchins like Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, or Heatran. I say "multiple" because it's not uncommon for Mega Salamence to run coverage moves like Fire Blast or Aqua Tail. Not only does its initial speed make it a threat, but so does its absurd base defense stat. Base 130 defense is just ridiculous for a pokemon that already is able to outspeed almost the entire metagame. Its insane defense stat makes it almost impossible to revenge kill with any kind of priority. Talonflame's Life Orb Brave Bird only rids Mega Salamence of about half of its HP, and Mamoswine's Ice Shard can't even KO it from full health. Both of these can 2hko megamence, though, but not when Jirachi, megamence's most common partner, redirects these moves to itself and resists both of them.
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 164-192 (49.3 - 57.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 270-328 (81.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So i finally got reqs. honestly there isnt much that needs to be said that hasnt already been said.
My favourite set has got to be DD Roost. It has no issues setting up and then hitting everything for easy kos. Roost also lets it beat pokemon like lando t a lot more reliably, as rock slide doesnt hurt after a roost.
The evs outspeed max speed +ve nature base 110s. max attack and the rest in speed. I use double edge for the sheer power and because roost can heal off most damage. Maybe its just because i was on the ladder, but i didnt like any bulky salamence variants and would much rather have power.
Ive also tried pairing it with sub jirachi. Because mega salamence either forces lots of switches to get a resist in safely or just straight up kills things, jirachi finds free turns itself to set up a sub. Behind a sub, jirachi is quite impenetrable and can perform the redirection support role a lot more effectively.
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 80 SpD / 108 Spe
Careful Nature
- Follow Me
- Substitute
- Iron Head
- Protect
The evs and nature are the same as pretty much any jirachi. i would usually recommend icy wind just to slow opposing salamence down but i had speed control elsewhere so could afford to try sub.
Everything else i have to say i just the general chat: extremely strong, bulky etc., jirachi + salamence is stupidly good, salamence is good on rain, need to run obscure and multiple checks to beat it.
Ban
Also if mega salamence comes back, my beloved dd roost altaria will never get used again
Also, has anyone laddered with a special/mixed salamence? I would be curious to know how it performed. I could see it being useful for surprise and to burn steels and have a strong spread move, but ive always stayed away from it because it seems a little weak
I'm honestly surprised to see everyone just saying "ban" day one. The point of the suspect is to put Salamencite in the meta for an extended period of time, then decide what we think. One day will hardly provide the experience necessary to determine if Sally is too strong or not. If you just want to get your post in for voting, never touch this thread again, and then shamelessly vote "ban", then I won't stop you. However, I plan to discuss the metagame and actually consider the possibility of Salamence-Mega being allowed in the metagame.
I must say the ladder is currently using something like 5 Salamence checks per team, making it very hard for me to really gather info when it comes to Salamence. That being said, I will talk about what I have seen so far, though I definitely do not have a final decision at this point in time.
I used a pretty fast and simple team today (will probably play with a couple other teams during the suspect), will post the general ideas around it and you can feel free to use it yourselves:
The general idea for this team was Salamence + Bisharp. I knew a lot of Icy Wind users would be gaining use since it beats the obvious Salamence-Mega + redirection. Bisharp is a great choice for discouraging Icy Wind since Defiant would give Bisharp a free +2 attack boost, making it incredibly threatening. Heatran was next up as it helped beat Ice-types, specifically Abomasnow. Zapdos provided an answer to Water-types like Suicune and Keldeo who would probably be the more common users of Icy Wind. Keldeo is basically the pick for helping beat Kangaskhan teams, and Amoonguss just kinda got slapped on for redirection, an easier rain matchup, and the FWG core. I don't really want to dawdle on about the team since it's really straightforward, so let's keep it at that and move on.
Some of the more reliable strategic checks I've seen include Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Icy Wind, WoW + Intimidate (bcuz apparently this works on everything with physical moves), and hail teams. Some more detailed sets that can handle Salamence to some extent include Scarf Zapdos (Thundy-T not as much bcuz +1 Return does a ton), Mega Diancie, Ferrothorn (dat recoil), and the standard Jirachi set (w/ Icy Wind and Follow Me). I also find that its defense is very lackluster specially, meaning anything faster w/ HP Ice will threaten it without Follow Me support. Rain and sun teams are taking advantage of this with things like Ludicolo and HP Ice Venusaur. Venusaur + Charizard in particular do a real clean job beating the infamous Jirachi + Salamence core, since bulkier Charizards can take Returns (not Double-Edges however, which is why I run it on my Sally). I really do emphasize that Icy Wind, an already good move, beats Rachi + Sally pretty cleanly (my Icy Wind Keldeo did a pretty good job in Sally + Rachi matchups). Gardevoir-Mega with redirection is also something I have seen which has its merits against Salamence.
Overall, I'd say there is a lot of potential for beating Salamence thus far, leading me to believe not banning it is a legitimate possibility to consider, at least for now. It also stands that its coverage has limits (especially if you run Sub for WoW or TWave) and even after a Dragon Dance there are pokemon that can beat it 1 vs 1 (such as Suicune, Rotom-W (assuming no Sub to some extent), Zapdos, HP Ice Rotom-H, defensive Ice Beam Cress, etc).
Also special Mence Hyper Voice is pretty underwhelming, jsyk (and it kinda struggles vs Heatran unless Hydro I guess).
-EDIT-
Here are a few replays that got saved (almost forgot about them): G1 (nice example of Sally + rain here; definitely could have beat me) G2 (Fangame gives no shites about Sally; TR showing it can give Sally issues) G3 (Rachi + Mence loses this one w/ some lackluster plays) G4 (Rachi + Mence rematch I lose; definitely could've had it if not for the parahax revenge preventing Tran Heat Wave and then Sally EQ and then the Protect Keldeo semi-choke and then the Protect Heatran choke (rip me I suck ;-;)) G5 (cool Mega Gard team that almost bops me with Raikou) G6 (win over HailRoom tho opponent could have played better)
Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Impish Nature
- Follow Me
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head
- Helping Hand
This team is highly imperfect, and yet, after a bit of a rough start where I was making terrible plays (bc I don't do this bunnies-style shit well at all) it was pretty autopilot.
I don't even have a ton of good options vs common mons (that even check mence) like Heatran, Bisharp, and Rotom-W... and yet... it still worked fine. The major backbone of everything is always Mence and it fits into the bunnies style just fine, even providing its own intimidate so you don't need Lando-T, who has become significantly more lackluster in the Mence meta.
All in all, I'm not convinced that Mence is broken in the most standard sense of the term. However, I've never felt that is the only usable metric. The fact is that building for this meta is significantly more difficult than building for a meta without mence. Most traditional teams pre-testing mence needed good Diancie checks, like Aegislash, Jirachi, or Ferrothorn. And, yes, these mons are all still just fine in the Mence meta. But it almost forces their existence now. It is hard to make a team for this meta without at least one of them, (with the exception that HO can still manage around it with things like Darkrai or Weavile and a dose of TWave from Thundurus).
And btw you cannot rely too much on Tyranitar, Heatran, and certainly not Diancie to check Salamence. Aqua Tail is just fine. And unlike Kangaskhan, you can't just go with outrunning it nearly as easily. It's a mon you need multiple answers to, and even paralyzing it alone isn't always enough. It is still bulky and still hits like a truck.
My overall thoughts: Salamence pushes the meta into more HO, makes Sun worse (which in turn makes Rain better), and in general makes games more matchup based...
This sort of effect is inevitable any time a mon as powerful as Mega Mence is in a meta. The same maybe could have been said of Mega Diancie if it had been banned initially and Mence kept around. But I don't think Mence needs to be clear cut more broken than everything else. It just has to have a negative effect overall, and I frankly think anyone who doesn't see that negative effect is on some really good drugs.
got the reqs under the alt adidasforlife
probably going to vote ban since salamemce is a bit too strong in comparison it to other mons. at the same time its a new cool tool to use, its not like broken, it has many checks, it doesnt give you like a crazy advantege while providing cool option for rain, just another cool mon to use. now when like 40 things are even viable every new mon is a nice addition
Mega mence's sheer power, combined with the limited threats it has to deal with make it extremely strong in this meta. Because its checks all fall into the same category, and rachi/other steel type beats everything in that category, it comes off as a mon with a super easy path to sweep. Rachi's redirection creates easy chances to setup, and mence goes to work removing threats one-by-one. Even if mence can't hit two pokemon at once, with the proper support, it easily takes out threats. at +1 it outspeeds everything that might OHKO it, including stuff like scarf gene, which it ohkos with frustration/double edge. If another threatening mon comes in, boom rachi takes it out or redirects so mence does it itself. Mence on its own isnt overcentralizing, but considering how easily it gets setup support, it gets super easy sweeps.
I'm honestly surprised to see everyone just saying "ban" day one. The point of the suspect is to put Salamencite in the meta for an extended period of time, then decide what we think. One day will hardly provide the experience necessary to determine if Sally is too strong or not. If you just want to get your post in for voting, never touch this thread again, and then shamelessly vote "ban", then I won't stop you. However, I plan to discuss the metagame and actually consider the possibility of Salamence-Mega being allowed in the metagame.
I must say the ladder is currently using something like 5 Salamence checks per team, making it very hard for me to really gather info when it comes to Salamence. That being said, I will talk about what I have seen so far, though I definitely do not have a final decision at this point in time.
I used a pretty fast and simple team today (will probably play with a couple other teams during the suspect), will post the general ideas around it and you can feel free to use it yourselves:
The general idea for this team was Salamence + Bisharp. I knew a lot of Icy Wind users would be gaining use since it beats the obvious Salamence-Mega + redirection. Bisharp is a great choice for discouraging Icy Wind since Defiant would give Bisharp a free +2 attack boost, making it incredibly threatening. Heatran was next up as it helped beat Ice-types, specifically Abomasnow. Zapdos provided an answer to Water-types like Suicune and Keldeo who would probably be the more common users of Icy Wind. Keldeo is basically the pick for helping beat Kangaskhan teams, and Amoonguss just kinda got slapped on for redirection, an easier rain matchup, and the FWG core. I don't really want to dawdle on about the team since it's really straightforward, so let's keep it at that and move on.
Some of the more reliable strategic checks I've seen include Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Icy Wind, WoW + Intimidate (bcuz apparently this works on everything with physical moves), and hail teams. Some more detailed sets that can handle Salamence to some extent include Scarf Zapdos (Thundy-T not as much bcuz +1 Return does a ton), Mega Diancie, Ferrothorn (dat recoil), and the standard Jirachi set (w/ Icy Wind and Follow Me). I also find that its defense is very lackluster specially, meaning anything faster w/ HP Ice will threaten it without Follow Me support. Rain and sun teams are taking advantage of this with things like Ludicolo and HP Ice Venusaur. Venusaur + Charizard in particular do a real clean job beating the infamous Jirachi + Salamence core, since bulkier Charizards can take Returns (not Double-Edges however, which is why I run it on my Sally). I really do emphasize that Icy Wind, an already good move, beats Rachi + Sally pretty cleanly (my Icy Wind Keldeo did a pretty good job in Sally + Rachi matchups). Gardevoir-Mega with redirection is also something I have seen which has its merits against Salamence.
Overall, I'd say there is a lot of potential for beating Salamence thus far, leading me to believe not banning it is a legitimate possibility to consider, at least for now. It also stands that its coverage has limits (especially if you run Sub for WoW or TWave) and even after a Dragon Dance there are pokemon that can beat it 1 vs 1 (such as Suicune, Rotom-W (assuming no Sub to some extent), Zapdos, HP Ice Rotom-H, defensive Ice Beam Cress, etc).
Also special Mence Hyper Voice is pretty underwhelming, jsyk (and it kinda struggles vs Heatran unless Hydro I guess).
-EDIT-
Here are a few replays that got saved (almost forgot about them): G1 (nice example of Sally + rain here; definitely could have beat me) G2 (Fangame gives no shites about Sally; TR showing it can give Sally issues) G3 (Rachi + Mence loses this one w/ some lackluster plays) G4 (Rachi + Mence rematch I lose; definitely could've had it if not for the parahax revenge preventing Tran Heat Wave and then Sally EQ and then the Protect Keldeo semi-choke and then the Protect Heatran choke (rip me I suck ;-;)) G5 (cool Mega Gard team that almost bops me with Raikou) G6 (win over HailRoom tho opponent could have played better)
Personally I see that as the problem with Mence. If it forces you to run something like HP Ice Venusaur or scarf Zapdos just to check it, that shows how overcentralizing it is.
Mega-Salamance is very effective in the current meta, but have we given enough time for solid counters/checks to be found before we make a decision? for example, Kyurem-Black is a effective way to destroy current Mega-Salamance, and i havent seen him on the ladder in 30+- games I've played besides when i have used him.
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 873-1029 (221.5 - 261.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 387-456 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 304-358 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( at +1 cleanly OHKOS)
however, Kyruem-Black cannot take care of Jirachi cleanly [252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Jirachi: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO] so you have to find a partner that can help.
I am still unsure if Mega-Salamance is actually ban worthy, yes it has godly stats and a nice ability, but the ice, dragon, fairy, rock, weakness (all common attacking types in doubles) makes it easy to revenge kill at times like when Jirachi is off the field. I'll add more after I have time for more research and testing.
So I suppose I need to post my thoughts here as well as everyone else, in my opinion Mega Salamence is one of the most broken Pokemon in the game. It's proven time and time again to be an outstanding threat across multiple tiers it's been allowed in. Although in Doubles it's not outright as powerful as it is in a Single style meta like OU or Ubers, it still managed to break the game. How is that? Well, based on what i've seen from the last test, and the test we're currently in I believe Salamence is so broken because it's incredibly easy to support. Outside of the standard Jirachi support they're a few other ways that it can be supported, and 1 of those ways I believe is astronomically better than any Jirachi, Excadrill. Excadrill is a Pokemon that doesn't get used a lot in metagames without Salamence but has always managed to be a good niche Pokemon. With Salamence around, however, Excadrill begins to shine. If you look at the bigger picture, most teams will use the same certain things to stop Mence; Thundurus-i, Togekiss, Fairy Types such as Sylveon and Gardevoir, Jirachi, redirection like Clefable, Rotom-w, but simple offensive pressure from Excadrill and all of these Pokemon have a much harder time stopping it from destroying their team.
It's fairy common knowledge that my favourite Salamence set is the Bulky Dragon Dancer that I adopted from the early XY Days as it was destroying another tier. The set is fairly simple,
The main idea being that you're extremely bulky, outrun common scarf users at +1, and since it's Salamence you don't need any more attack than the 16 EVs you have there. Things such as Heatran's heatwave failed to break sub, as well as -1 Rock Slides from a certain scarf cat that everyone uses. Although you make thing that setting up a sub and +1 is a hard thing to do in Doubles, it's really not with Mence's naturally bulk, if you can find a good time to get it in (it's not a hard thing to do) you should find you're able to sweep without much of a Problem. The team that I used during the suspect test, as shown in the sample thread, was designed so Mence could be the cleaner. Tyrantiar (yes i did say ttar) and Excadrill were probably the super stars of the team as they removed a lot of potential "checks" for Salamence early in the game, meaning it could come in and sweep at will. I use "checks" because it has none. The team also included a Heatran of my own, Azumarill, and my own Thundurus so I would be able to keep the beast at bay, but even then I got swept a couple times by opposing Mence.
My opinion on the subject hasn't changed since the last suspect, and I feel testing this is just a waste of time that puts the meta at a unhealthy risk. It's much harder to build teams with Salamence around, and the meta becomes unstable. When I say unstable, you're never really able to check all of the major threats in Doubles anymore with a single team like you would have been able to in the past metas. Salamence is far too easy to support and far to centralizing a Pokemon for my taste, and when it comes time to vote if you haven't figured it out by now I will be voting ban this piece of shit.
To those whining about Mence being broken i'd like to discredit a few things already said.
1. The meta game is getting too HO.
It isn't really getting HO because of mence being in it, it's because people are using some rather dumb sets such as, for example, the bulky Mence. It doesn't even hit steels with jirachi there because you have 3 moveslots that don't do anything at all on Mence because you're just boosting your attack to hit things you either already KO or are going to kill you anyway. Jirachi has nothing to hit steels naturally aside from hidden power ground and such, so if you want to complain about mence make sure you complain about the mence that's making you eat its Double Edge.
The most offensive Mence checks are really rain and full trick room, which aren't even that good in the regular meta game because of Thundurus lurking around (also would like to question the lack of thundurus in a meta where everyone keeps centralizing 2 mons that absolutely get ruined by Thundurus) and Bisharp being everywhere (once again, a full TR check and Mence check all in one). Also, people keep thinking that by adding these things to their Mence/Rachi teams it will be horrifying when in reality having those four on one team loses to Landorus-I and co.
2. Bulky Mence is too OP.
Bulky Mence isn't good. Using Mizuhime's Sub set, here are some calcs against my good friend Heatran.
+2 16+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 209-246 (62 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 16+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 245-288 (72.7 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Mega Salamence: 65-77 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
The first two calcs seem self explanatory, so I'll skip them. The third calc, however, is there to show that it breaks a sub in two hits. What dies to Heatran in two hits that's used next to Salamence literally all the time? Jirachi really doesn't like taking those Heat Waves too well. Now let's bring in our Heatran's lovely friend Cresselia.
+2 16+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 327-385 (73.6 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 4 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Mega Salamence: 316-376 (80.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cresselia's Ice Beam beats Mega Salamence after redirection and the Sub are gone (ty Heatran n_n). Sure Mence gets the 2HKO on both of these at +2, but I doubt it will even really get there without having to be lost first, and Cresselia has access to Moonlight which allows it to maintain its health.
Let me also use the scenario provided by Landorus-I rain. Landorus-I is a perfect Jirachi check because it gets a quick KO on it with Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power, while also taking a Mega Mence +0 Return without any investment (and a +0 Double-Edge with a bit of HP investment). So, if my calcs are based on +0, then what must be keeping Landorus-I from taking a +1 hit? The revival of master dog Mega Manectric in rain! Outspeeding +0 Mega Salamence, breaks its Sub with Thunderbolt, has Hidden Power Ice to deal a ton to Mega Mence, and Intimidate to give a quick -1 to Salamence at the start of the game and even scout away after giving a quick scare to Mega Mence if it feels it is necessary. Rain stops Mence so hard it goes straight home and cries to Arceus-Dragon about it.
Now, finally, I reveal the best Mence there really is.
Literally the Mega Talonflame of Pokemon, this set is actually scary compared to the awful bulky ones listed above. Jolly goes with Dragon Claw, Adamant goes with Dragon Dance. The following calcs are pretty much proof of improvements to the bulky Mence.
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 170-200 (50.4 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 178-210 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 240 HP / 44+ Def Scrafty: 314-372 (94.8 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Why these Pokemon are significant:
Heatran is standard on a Trick Room team but if it isn't Trick Room it's Shuca Berry in this meta. Bisharp is everywhere since Intimidate is everywhere. Tyranitar is gaining popularity in this meta. Scrafty is an outstanding fake out user next to a Trick Room setter such as Cresselia.
Why these calcs are significant:
Heatran just straight up destroys the bulky Mega Mence set while next to its buddy Cresselia. Bisharp used to destroy bulky Mega Mence because it couldn't really hit back with such a low Attack stat (decided not to include a +1 bisharp calc because if used properly you won't Intimidate Bisharp anyway). Tyranitar loves facing off against Mence/Rachi while in Trick Room, and at +1 Mence is able to help Jirachi annihilate the threat. Scrafty used to destroy Jirachi before Mence even had the slightest chance of OHKOing it, or even get off the Fake Out against Mence while Jirachi is forced to go for flinches on the Trick Room setter (assuming there even is one).
These are just a few things I'd like Bulky Mence to stop.
So, one final question: why did you try harder to break Mega Mence?
With bulky Mence gone and the Talonflame-like Mence here, what's left? A very weak and vulnerable Pokemon. Despite natural bulk this Pokemon tends to stand out as a target for Ice Beams, Moonblasts, Pixilate Hyper Voices, and even Mega Glalie Explosions if you're up to using that. And now that I think about it, this entire post completely ignored Diancie, one of the absolute largest checks to bulky Mence and a definitely useful offensive Mence stopper under Tailwind (though having to get past Jirachi).
I might have just nagged on about how Mega Mence is overrated as a Pokemon, but it still is a scary thing to face, but more on the level of a non Mence Meta Kangaskhan scary. It's not banworthy imo, you guys are just overthinking its beautiful stats.
To those whining about Mence being broken i'd like to discredit a few things already said.
1. The meta game is getting too HO.
It isn't really getting HO because of mence being in it, it's because people are using some rather dumb sets such as, for example, the bulky Mence. It doesn't even hit steels with jirachi there because you have 3 moveslots that don't do anything at all on Mence because you're just boosting your attack to hit things you either already KO or are going to kill you anyway. Jirachi has nothing to hit steels naturally aside from hidden power ground and such, so if you want to complain about mence make sure you complain about the mence that's making you eat its Double Edge.
The most offensive Mence checks are really rain and full trick room, which aren't even that good in the regular meta game because of Thundurus lurking around (also would like to question the lack of thundurus in a meta where everyone keeps centralizing 2 mons that absolutely get ruined by Thundurus) and Bisharp being everywhere (once again, a full TR check and Mence check all in one). Also, people keep thinking that by adding these things to their Mence/Rachi teams it will be horrifying when in reality having those four on one team loses to Landorus-I and co.
2. Bulky Mence is too OP.
Bulky Mence isn't good. Using Mizuhime's Sub set, here are some calcs against my good friend Heatran.
+2 16+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 209-246 (62 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 16+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 245-288 (72.7 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Mega Salamence: 65-77 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
The first two calcs seem self explanatory, so I'll skip them. The third calc, however, is there to show that it breaks a sub in two hits. What dies to Heatran in two hits that's used next to Salamence literally all the time? Jirachi really doesn't like taking those Heat Waves too well. Now let's bring in our Heatran's lovely friend Cresselia.
+2 16+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 327-385 (73.6 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 4 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Mega Salamence: 316-376 (80.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cresselia's Ice Beam beats Mega Salamence after redirection and the Sub are gone (ty Heatran n_n). Sure Mence gets the 2HKO on both of these at +2, but I doubt it will even really get there without having to be lost first, and Cresselia has access to Moonlight which allows it to maintain its health.
Let me also use the scenario provided by Landorus-I rain. Landorus-I is a perfect Jirachi check because it gets a quick KO on it with Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power, while also taking a Mega Mence +0 Return without any investment (and a +0 Double-Edge with a bit of HP investment). So, if my calcs are based on +0, then what must be keeping Landorus-I from taking a +1 hit? The revival of master dog Mega Manectric in rain! Outspeeding +0 Mega Salamence, breaks its Sub with Thunderbolt, has Hidden Power Ice to deal a ton to Mega Mence, and Intimidate to give a quick -1 to Salamence at the start of the game and even scout away after giving a quick scare to Mega Mence if it feels it is necessary. Rain stops Mence so hard it goes straight home and cries to Arceus-Dragon about it.
Now, finally, I reveal the best Mence there really is.
Literally the Mega Talonflame of Pokemon, this set is actually scary compared to the awful bulky ones listed above. Jolly goes with Dragon Claw, Adamant goes with Dragon Dance. The following calcs are pretty much proof of improvements to the bulky Mence.
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 170-200 (50.4 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 178-210 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 240 HP / 44+ Def Scrafty: 314-372 (94.8 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Why these Pokemon are significant:
Heatran is standard on a Trick Room team but if it isn't Trick Room it's Shuca Berry in this meta. Bisharp is everywhere since Intimidate is everywhere. Tyranitar is gaining popularity in this meta. Scrafty is an outstanding fake out user next to a Trick Room setter such as Cresselia.
Why these calcs are significant:
Heatran just straight up destroys the bulky Mega Mence set while next to its buddy Cresselia. Bisharp used to destroy bulky Mega Mence because it couldn't really hit back with such a low Attack stat (decided not to include a +1 bisharp calc because if used properly you won't Intimidate Bisharp anyway). Tyranitar loves facing off against Mence/Rachi while in Trick Room, and at +1 Mence is able to help Jirachi annihilate the threat. Scrafty used to destroy Jirachi before Mence even had the slightest chance of OHKOing it, or even get off the Fake Out against Mence while Jirachi is forced to go for flinches on the Trick Room setter (assuming there even is one).
These are just a few things I'd like Bulky Mence to stop.
So, one final question: why did you try harder to break Mega Mence?
With bulky Mence gone and the Talonflame-like Mence here, what's left? A very weak and vulnerable Pokemon. Despite natural bulk this Pokemon tends to stand out as a target for Ice Beams, Moonblasts, Pixilate Hyper Voices, and even Mega Glalie Explosions if you're up to using that. And now that I think about it, this entire post completely ignored Diancie, one of the absolute largest checks to bulky Mence and a definitely useful offensive Mence stopper under Tailwind (though having to get past Jirachi).
I might have just nagged on about how Mega Mence is overrated as a Pokemon, but it still is a scary thing to face, but more on the level of a non Mence Meta Kangaskhan scary. It's not banworthy imo, you guys are just overthinking its beautiful stats.
Anytime you run a powerful pokemon on your team, you should be pairing it with members that account and help deal with the relevant threats to that pokemon
The idea behind Bulky Mence is that its not meant to be a swiss army knife. Bulky Mence is a pokemon that can setup and shine usually lategame after you get rid of the steels and rock types that would threathen it.
I actually am a fan of earthquake frustration mence if you want a pokemon that has more coverage but I believe bulky mence is the set that can just run straight through teams much more easily after getting rid of its relevant threats with a strong supporting cast of teammates.
There is no one set for Mega Mence as it can easily be changed based on your team and its not too hard to support most sets
Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Drill Run
I decided to try the idea nollan posted about mega garde + redirection and mizus idea about excadrill being good in this meta and put them in a team. Sub garde sounded nice as a sleep check and to take advantage of the switches it forces. I thought tailwind was a good idea to patch up gardes middling speed. Talonflame and excadrill have good synergy so talonflame was added. I used suicune as my next tailwind user for a fwg core and i remembered kylecoles suicune from the last mence test. I finally added aegislash to beat jirachi and aid vs salamence and diancie. Wide guard is also very useful.
this was a replay vs the dubs room sample team (not the ladder). It shows the team working quite nicely.
Take the team for a spin, suggest improvements. I think this is a good example of a way to beat salamence + partners effectively while functioning well and not being dedicated to countering it
uhhh so there's a big discussion going on about threats and shit and bleh
I was told I needed to post here to get reqs or something... so here goes
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the thing I think people don't address is mence's intrinsic bulk
it gets intimidate pre-mega, has 130 base def, 95 base hp, 90 base spdef, that's pretty damn good
Let me put it this way: why do people run kang over lopnny? because lopunny dies if it gets tickled, kang doesn't, and mence gets recovery too
it's not that the resists of jirachi and mence line up so well, it's that there aren't enough mons that threaten BOTH at the same time. If mence is threated, you follow me, if rachi is threatened you tect or switchout.
Anyways, I'm voting a **no-ban**. I thought of it this way: the null is that mence should be allowed. The alt hyp. is that mence should be banned. I don't think there's sufficient proof that mence is op.
I played like 35 ladder games, only faced 4-6 mence teams, only times I lost were severe hax or my own shitty plays.
I never felt creamed or shrekt by a mence team, and the paucity of mence teams and the numerous checks mean it's not op.
Now that I've finished my mandatory post quota, I'm selling my vote for $50, cash only, taking offers, first come first serve.
EDIT: I ran sunroom on the ladder, with a sylveon in (that's the only edit I made with mence in mind) and it did great so imo not-op
EDIT2: "%Hashtag Smogon:also just so you know, i dont think the amount of posting you have done so far is going to cut it"
Yeah probably, but I'm not just going to regurgitate what everyone else has said already. The fact that there exists a discussion means, imo, that it stays unbanned.
I see people doing calcs and running numbers, posting giant fucking essays, and it's all meaningless. Doubles is more complex than 3 calcs or one set or just seeing if something lives 1 eq or 2eqs. If you want to decide your vote based on a calc, then go play singles. We're playing fucking doubles, it's a complex metagame, this question couldn't be answered by a 17 page research paper.
TL;DR: this discussion is pointless and its existence means an unban
I'm honestly surprised to see everyone just saying "ban" day one. The point of the suspect is to put Salamencite in the meta for an extended period of time, then decide what we think. One day will hardly provide the experience necessary to determine if Sally is too strong or not. If you just want to get your post in for voting, never touch this thread again, and then shamelessly vote "ban", then I won't stop you. However, I plan to discuss the metagame and actually consider the possibility of Salamence-Mega being allowed in the metagame.
I must say the ladder is currently using something like 5 Salamence checks per team, making it very hard for me to really gather info when it comes to Salamence. That being said, I will talk about what I have seen so far, though I definitely do not have a final decision at this point in time.
I used a pretty fast and simple team today (will probably play with a couple other teams during the suspect), will post the general ideas around it and you can feel free to use it yourselves:
The general idea for this team was Salamence + Bisharp. I knew a lot of Icy Wind users would be gaining use since it beats the obvious Salamence-Mega + redirection. Bisharp is a great choice for discouraging Icy Wind since Defiant would give Bisharp a free +2 attack boost, making it incredibly threatening. Heatran was next up as it helped beat Ice-types, specifically Abomasnow. Zapdos provided an answer to Water-types like Suicune and Keldeo who would probably be the more common users of Icy Wind. Keldeo is basically the pick for helping beat Kangaskhan teams, and Amoonguss just kinda got slapped on for redirection, an easier rain matchup, and the FWG core. I don't really want to dawdle on about the team since it's really straightforward, so let's keep it at that and move on.
Some of the more reliable strategic checks I've seen include Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Icy Wind, WoW + Intimidate (bcuz apparently this works on everything with physical moves), and hail teams. Some more detailed sets that can handle Salamence to some extent include Scarf Zapdos (Thundy-T not as much bcuz +1 Return does a ton), Mega Diancie, Ferrothorn (dat recoil), and the standard Jirachi set (w/ Icy Wind and Follow Me). I also find that its defense is very lackluster specially, meaning anything faster w/ HP Ice will threaten it without Follow Me support. Rain and sun teams are taking advantage of this with things like Ludicolo and HP Ice Venusaur. Venusaur + Charizard in particular do a real clean job beating the infamous Jirachi + Salamence core, since bulkier Charizards can take Returns (not Double-Edges however, which is why I run it on my Sally). I really do emphasize that Icy Wind, an already good move, beats Rachi + Sally pretty cleanly (my Icy Wind Keldeo did a pretty good job in Sally + Rachi matchups). Gardevoir-Mega with redirection is also something I have seen which has its merits against Salamence.
Overall, I'd say there is a lot of potential for beating Salamence thus far, leading me to believe not banning it is a legitimate possibility to consider, at least for now. It also stands that its coverage has limits (especially if you run Sub for WoW or TWave) and even after a Dragon Dance there are pokemon that can beat it 1 vs 1 (such as Suicune, Rotom-W (assuming no Sub to some extent), Zapdos, HP Ice Rotom-H, defensive Ice Beam Cress, etc).
Also special Mence Hyper Voice is pretty underwhelming, jsyk (and it kinda struggles vs Heatran unless Hydro I guess).
-EDIT-
Here are a few replays that got saved (almost forgot about them): G1 (nice example of Sally + rain here; definitely could have beat me) G2 (Fangame gives no shites about Sally; TR showing it can give Sally issues) G3 (Rachi + Mence loses this one w/ some lackluster plays) G4 (Rachi + Mence rematch I lose; definitely could've had it if not for the parahax revenge preventing Tran Heat Wave and then Sally EQ and then the Protect Keldeo semi-choke and then the Protect Heatran choke (rip me I suck ;-;)) G5 (cool Mega Gard team that almost bops me with Raikou) G6 (win over HailRoom tho opponent could have played better)
