I will answer this out of the thread. Everyone else wondering, please read the OP or ask me directly on my wall.
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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
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For a post of more than three keystrokes, I'll talk about the usefulness of Umbreon. When you look at the current pool of Magic Bounce users it is actually quite limited. You have Mega Absol, Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye, Xatu, and Espeon. Diancie and Sableye are really great and better than Umbreon in a vacuum, but both require the all so valuable Mega slot. Absol is frail as heck and can easily be taken advantage of if it can even switch in at all, and is also a Mega. Xatu and Espeon are Pursuit bait for Bisharp / TTar / Metagross / whatever. So what does this introduce into our little metagame? A bulky, non-Mega (read: splashable) Magic Bouncer that resists Pursuit. Seems like an awesome idea that would be great for everything from stall to bulky offense.
In the same vein, I'll discuss Hariyama because I think it's actually one of the more creative ones we've had in a while. Hariyama gets access to both Close Combat and Superpower. These, in conjunction with Contrary, give it the option of having two separate sets. The CC set would be much more defensive and certainly harder to take down. I'll post later with the calcs, but it's looking to me to be the better of the two sets. Superpower, on the other hand, lets Hariyama boost its attack, turning it into a better Malamar. Either move can be used together with ResTalk, making Hariyama a pretty serious threat once its counters are removed. The absurd 144 HP stat means it is VERY bulky. Boosting one or both defenses will make this a really interesting Pokemon.
Pretty interesting slate all around I'd say, though slightly underwhelming for some of the subjects.
Contrary is an interesting ability to toss around on anything that's not Infernape's movepool. Hariyama's still got a pretty bread-and-butter usage for it in the form of Superpower and Close Combat, though given his meaty HP, buffing his defense does go a long way. Still a bit slow for my taste.
Sandslash has an interesting amount of flavor behind Thousand Arrows in a literal sense. I do think it would prove an interesting addition to Sand Teams alongside Excadrill, since Thousand Arrows is a decently Spammable STAB compared to Excadrill's Earthquake, though he's significantly lacking for power and speed in comparison.
Umbreon is pretty interesting as a non-Mega alternative to Sableye, actually being bulkier, having access to Leftovers, at the expense of Ghost STAB, 2 weaknesses, WoW, and less reliable recovery. That said, saving the Mega Slot for balance teams still allows it to help provide Hazard control and use Foul Play to beat offensive SR users. This one has me most interested at least.
And last is Trevenant. This makes me think back to Prankster Gourgeist. Trevenant is less bulky, but has a very similar support movepool between Leech Seed and WoW in particular. That said, I'm not sure how much impact this might have. Oddly, this might make Trevenant a neat partner to Birdspam or some kind of partner with Forest Curse on a sac or something. Slapping Grass typing on something could allow something a set-up chance if they lose a resistance or just become weak to something. Like Chansey
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 320-380 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Might not stay in, but just a demonstration of how adding that typing can add an Achilles' Heel. Gimmicky, but fun to consider.
Umbreon looks like the most interesting addition to the metagame right now.
Contrary is an interesting ability to toss around on anything that's not Infernape's movepool. Hariyama's still got a pretty bread-and-butter usage for it in the form of Superpower and Close Combat, though given his meaty HP, buffing his defense does go a long way. Still a bit slow for my taste.
Sandslash has an interesting amount of flavor behind Thousand Arrows in a literal sense. I do think it would prove an interesting addition to Sand Teams alongside Excadrill, since Thousand Arrows is a decently Spammable STAB compared to Excadrill's Earthquake, though he's significantly lacking for power and speed in comparison.
Umbreon is pretty interesting as a non-Mega alternative to Sableye, actually being bulkier, having access to Leftovers, at the expense of Ghost STAB, 2 weaknesses, WoW, and less reliable recovery. That said, saving the Mega Slot for balance teams still allows it to help provide Hazard control and use Foul Play to beat offensive SR users. This one has me most interested at least.
And last is Trevenant. This makes me think back to Prankster Gourgeist. Trevenant is less bulky, but has a very similar support movepool between Leech Seed and WoW in particular. That said, I'm not sure how much impact this might have. Oddly, this might make Trevenant a neat partner to Birdspam or some kind of partner with Forest Curse on a sac or something. Slapping Grass typing on something could allow something a set-up chance if they lose a resistance or just become weak to something. Like Chansey
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 320-380 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Might not stay in, but just a demonstration of how adding that typing can add an Achilles' Heel. Gimmicky, but fun to consider.
Umbreon looks like the most interesting addition to the metagame right now.
+1, those are all great abilities that can make a bunch of mons strong/broken. Unfortunately 100 base atk and 65 base speed aren't turning heads anywhere near OU even with a cool move like thousand arrows. Poor guy basically needs a mega or huge power to be OU.
Not really feeling this slate. A bit by-the-numbers, these are pretty cookie cutter buffs with the exception of Sandslash. Let's break it down.
Hariyama + Contrary: Looks like the rise of Serperior really made people take notice. Hariyama's only Contrary-abusable moves are Superpower and Close Combat (not even a Hammer Arm, smh), but they're all it needs. It has very high HP and Attack and low everything else, which goes great with both a Bulk Up or a Cosmic Power boost. Definitely good, but a bit boring.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: Raikou to Mega Sableye's Manectric. IE, same idea, somewhat worse but doesn't take a Mega slot. It's fine, I suppose.
Trevenant + Prankster: Sub, Seed, Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond. Standard Prankster fare. Combining all the annoyance of Whimsicott and non-Mega Sableye. Might get my vote if only for the novelty.
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: My personal favorite, if only for the flavor. To be honest it just seems like a worse Excadrill for the most part. My first instinct is that it has freedom to run a Choice Band since Thousand Arrows ignores immunitites, but LO Exca EQ outdamages CB Thousand Arrows anyway. It's somewhat bulkier physically, but it doesn't seem very noteworthy really.
All in all it seems a slate of poor-man's-x. I'm sorry for the negativity, but nothing really caught my eye this time around.
Hariyama + Contrary: Looks like the rise of Serperior really made people take notice. Hariyama's only Contrary-abusable moves are Superpower and Close Combat (not even a Hammer Arm, smh), but they're all it needs. It has very high HP and Attack and low everything else, which goes great with both a Bulk Up or a Cosmic Power boost. Definitely good, but a bit boring.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: Raikou to Mega Sableye's Manectric. IE, same idea, somewhat worse but doesn't take a Mega slot. It's fine, I suppose.
Trevenant + Prankster: Sub, Seed, Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond. Standard Prankster fare. Combining all the annoyance of Whimsicott and non-Mega Sableye. Might get my vote if only for the novelty.
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: My personal favorite, if only for the flavor. To be honest it just seems like a worse Excadrill for the most part. My first instinct is that it has freedom to run a Choice Band since Thousand Arrows ignores immunitites, but LO Exca EQ outdamages CB Thousand Arrows anyway. It's somewhat bulkier physically, but it doesn't seem very noteworthy really.
All in all it seems a slate of poor-man's-x. I'm sorry for the negativity, but nothing really caught my eye this time around.
go away stupid spodergerm
celtic has a nice avy
edit: scratch that wtf chrissy's gone :[ celtic aint cool no more
edit: scratch that wtf chrissy's gone :[ celtic aint cool no more
I'll get around to the rest of the slate later on, but I just want to say that you're all crazy if you think Slash is a crapper Excadrill. First, I'll just leave these two calcs for you to mull over:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 198-237 (59.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 250-296 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Remember, Thousand Arrows basically gives Slash Mold Breaker for what it wants it for (aside from unaware Quag). Its just a little less powerful than EQ, but more spammable.
Let's just remember the only reason why Ground is not the best STAB in the game.... oh yeah, that's right, it's because of the numerous Flying-type and Levitating Pokemon. Except... Thousand Arrows ignores that! The first reaction to an Excadrill switch in is to switch to my Ground immunity, burning up Sand turns, and hoping it misses Rock Slide. Slash just doesn't care. At all.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 191-226 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Mega Latias: 140-165 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Baloon Tran suddenly cowers in fear, Skarm runs away, and Rotom-W gets it's laundry dirty.
All checks to Excadrill get wiped out by Slash apart from Azu, who can't KO even if it's banded.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandslash: 218-260 (74.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandslash: 153-181 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This thing has more physical bulk than Driller, no fighting weakness (although it loses a resistance to Talonflame, granted), and wait for it.... better coverage. Yes, that's right, Slash gets KNOCK OFF and Aerial Ace.
Going back to Ground STAB, which OU 'mons now actually resist Thousand Arrows? Only Grass and Bug types actually resist Ground, so:
Celebi,
See the problem? Most have secondary types that make them neutral, leaving Celebi (Knock Off), Pinsir (Aerial Ace), Serperior (Aerial Ace), Chesnaught (Aerial Ace), Breloom (Aerial Ace), Heracross (Aerial Ace), Mega Sceptile (Aerial Ace), Gourgeist (Knock Off), and Whimsicott (Aerial Ace).
Slash might actually be insane - with a set of SD, Spin/Aerial Ace, Knock Off and Thousand Arrows, only chesnaught, breloom, and heracross resist it, and it can deal serious damage at +2. Would definitely be viable, as though it doesn't hit as hard, it is physically bulkier than exca and loses the mach punch weakness. It could even run earth plate instead of LO, as it's going to be spamming 1000 Arrows anyway.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 243-289 (57.8 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 204-242 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 235-278 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 278-329 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 222-263 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-277 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 204-242 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 235-278 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 278-329 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 222-263 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-277 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Slash's Thousand Arrows is about as powerful as Driller's Iron Head, so there is an apreciable lack of power:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-208 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 192-227 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
It's also slower than Driller, only outspeeding up to neutral base 102, or positive base 90 in the Sand, and being pretty slow without Sand (still faster than 44 Speed Rotom-W though.)
Don't underestimate Slash - this simple movepool change would launch it right up to A rank.
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Although no amount of perfect flavour can completely save Sandslash from Excadrill's shadow, it should be noted that it has one thing Exca doesn't: Knock Off. Between Thousand Arrows' spammable coverage and Knock Off's Knock Off-ness, Slash would actually be a better dedicated spinner for teams with a sand setter, boosting with Swords Dance against Mega Sableye and dick-punching every other spinblocker with its blazing fast Knock Off.
Of course, Defog, the rarity of Ghosts and the fact that it requires sand to work make it niche as hell, but I can see it finding a home on TTar + Zard Y teams, for example.
(Okay, Pato wrote that while I was typing, but Slash's spinning skillz should still be mentioned.)
Of course, Defog, the rarity of Ghosts and the fact that it requires sand to work make it niche as hell, but I can see it finding a home on TTar + Zard Y teams, for example.
(Okay, Pato wrote that while I was typing, but Slash's spinning skillz should still be mentioned.)
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Well, I retract my statement (on Sandslash anyway). I hadn't considered the possibility of hitting mons that would be weak to Ground if not for their immunity, and the added utility is very nice. I'm still a bit skeptical as it seems very niche, but I can see a Birdspam/Double Dragon-esque use of Slash and Drill on sand teams, with Slash weakening counters and would-be EQ switchins. Definitely changed my mind. Now if someone can make posts like that for the other three, we got a really interesting slate :P
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows
This is a great movepool edition for one of my favourite Pokemon, and is undoubtedly the one I am voting for. Thousand Arrows allows it to beat stuff that walls Excadrill (such as Skarmory, Rotom-Wash, and Balloon Tran as previously mentioned) forming an effective Sand spam core. It's ability to perform a variety of roles, including Band or SD/LO as well as spinner that can punish spinblockers with Knock Off. Fire move/1K Arrows is perfect coverage, it's just a shame the only Fire move Slash gets is Sunny Day ;( Still a great theorymon that I will be voting for.
Hariyama + Contrary
This is another good one. Superpower turns it into a better Malamar, whereas Close Combat turns it into a phenomenal mixed wall with that great HP stat. I would personally be more inclined to run CC to boost its below average defenses to levels where it can stall stuff due to its massive HP and boosted defenses. A cool mon for sure, and I would vote for it if it wasn't on the same slate as Slash :p
Umbreon + Magic Bounce
This is an amazing addition for this mon. It already has solid defenses, but now it can't be statused too! Blocks non-Moldy Taunt which allows it the freedom to run 4 status moves and be a cool Wish passer (Wish/Protect/Toxic/Heal Bell or something probably). Allows it free switches on a variety of mons, including Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, while having utility in bouncing back hazards ;)
Trevenant + Prankster
This would be so annoying. It is basically a bulkier Sableye. Sub/Seed/WoW/Phantom Force or other filler will be a pain to take down, or you could go gimmicky with Confuse Ray. Another cool mon that I could see getting some support and would enjoy using.
Overall this was a great slate, good job guys! I wish I could vote for all of them, they're all cool ;;;
This is a great movepool edition for one of my favourite Pokemon, and is undoubtedly the one I am voting for. Thousand Arrows allows it to beat stuff that walls Excadrill (such as Skarmory, Rotom-Wash, and Balloon Tran as previously mentioned) forming an effective Sand spam core. It's ability to perform a variety of roles, including Band or SD/LO as well as spinner that can punish spinblockers with Knock Off. Fire move/1K Arrows is perfect coverage, it's just a shame the only Fire move Slash gets is Sunny Day ;( Still a great theorymon that I will be voting for.
Hariyama + Contrary
This is another good one. Superpower turns it into a better Malamar, whereas Close Combat turns it into a phenomenal mixed wall with that great HP stat. I would personally be more inclined to run CC to boost its below average defenses to levels where it can stall stuff due to its massive HP and boosted defenses. A cool mon for sure, and I would vote for it if it wasn't on the same slate as Slash :p
Umbreon + Magic Bounce
This is an amazing addition for this mon. It already has solid defenses, but now it can't be statused too! Blocks non-Moldy Taunt which allows it the freedom to run 4 status moves and be a cool Wish passer (Wish/Protect/Toxic/Heal Bell or something probably). Allows it free switches on a variety of mons, including Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, while having utility in bouncing back hazards ;)
Trevenant + Prankster
This would be so annoying. It is basically a bulkier Sableye. Sub/Seed/WoW/Phantom Force or other filler will be a pain to take down, or you could go gimmicky with Confuse Ray. Another cool mon that I could see getting some support and would enjoy using.
Overall this was a great slate, good job guys! I wish I could vote for all of them, they're all cool ;;;
Alright! My totally-not-subliminal message worked to perfection! Also, welcome back Sun King!
This week's slate is kinda weird, but I stll wanna talk (or in this case, write) about it:
Before I get to talk/write about each mon on the slate, I realized that all of these mons are pretty damn slow (Sandslash and Umbreon being the FASTEST at base 65, then Trevenant at base 56 and finally, Hariyama at base 50). In Trevenant's case though, it doesn't really matter cuz ya know... Prankster. Anyway, here are my thoughts on this slate:
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: Oooh, very cool and orginal addition to Sandslah's movepool. Very useful too as Flying-types and Levitators won't be able to safely switch into this move (dammit, we just had Bronzong). Also, having another spinner could be cool (we always need more of those), but something tells me it won't be able to completely flourish in this metagame. Actually, that something is terrible special bulk and speed, and being somewhat useless outside of sand. In overall, Sandslash has a cool niche, but I think its dismal SpD and dependency on sand will keep it from effectively doing its job.
Hariyama + Contrary: Another Contrary Fighting-type... oh well. Anyway, that's certainly a mon I can get behind. Close Combat and Superpower boosting its stats instead of lowering them can and will make Hariyama a very dangerous mon to face. I can already see it with an Assault Vest and Superpower / Knock Off / Bullet Punch / filler (Earthquake maybe) with maximum investment in Atk and SpD (HP is already sky-high, so no need of investment here).Also, if you've got a thing for masochism, you can always go for "boosting" moves like Work Up, Bulk Up, Power-Up Punch and even Belly Drum. In all seriousness, its lack of recovery (too bad it doesn't learn Drain Punch) may hamper Hariyama's effectiveness, but with its power and bulk after one Superpower/Close Combat boost or more, it'll be hard to take down.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: By the first look of it, it seems pretty much similar to M-Sableye without being a mega, with better defensive stats (95 / 110 / 130 compared to 50 / 125 / 115) and access to Leftovers. Being able to WishPass without the fear of it or its teammates being statused (unless Mold Breaker) also comes in pretty handy. In overall, it's an excellent defensive buff that's worth to consider voting for.
Trevenant + Prankster: Another Prankster Ghost-type. NO MORE! ONE IS ENOUGH! THEY'RE ANNOYING AS HELL! It many status moves to abuse like Will-O-Wisp, SubSeed and Destiny Bond (pretty sure Venom Drench is not really relevant). I'm not going to vote for this one because of its subpar bulk and the major annoyance factor it brings to the table (hypocrite me suggested Prankster Jellicent two weeks ago lol).
Great slate in general and for the first time, I'm not sure from the start which one I'll vote for. I'll run some calcs when/if I got the time.
This week's slate is kinda weird, but I stll wanna talk (or in this case, write) about it:
Before I get to talk/write about each mon on the slate, I realized that all of these mons are pretty damn slow (Sandslash and Umbreon being the FASTEST at base 65, then Trevenant at base 56 and finally, Hariyama at base 50). In Trevenant's case though, it doesn't really matter cuz ya know... Prankster. Anyway, here are my thoughts on this slate:
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: Oooh, very cool and orginal addition to Sandslah's movepool. Very useful too as Flying-types and Levitators won't be able to safely switch into this move (dammit, we just had Bronzong). Also, having another spinner could be cool (we always need more of those), but something tells me it won't be able to completely flourish in this metagame. Actually, that something is terrible special bulk and speed, and being somewhat useless outside of sand. In overall, Sandslash has a cool niche, but I think its dismal SpD and dependency on sand will keep it from effectively doing its job.
Hariyama + Contrary: Another Contrary Fighting-type... oh well. Anyway, that's certainly a mon I can get behind. Close Combat and Superpower boosting its stats instead of lowering them can and will make Hariyama a very dangerous mon to face. I can already see it with an Assault Vest and Superpower / Knock Off / Bullet Punch / filler (Earthquake maybe) with maximum investment in Atk and SpD (HP is already sky-high, so no need of investment here).
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: By the first look of it, it seems pretty much similar to M-Sableye without being a mega, with better defensive stats (95 / 110 / 130 compared to 50 / 125 / 115) and access to Leftovers. Being able to WishPass without the fear of it or its teammates being statused (unless Mold Breaker) also comes in pretty handy. In overall, it's an excellent defensive buff that's worth to consider voting for.
Trevenant + Prankster: Another Prankster Ghost-type. NO MORE! ONE IS ENOUGH! THEY'RE ANNOYING AS HELL! It many status moves to abuse like Will-O-Wisp, SubSeed and Destiny Bond (pretty sure Venom Drench is not really relevant). I'm not going to vote for this one because of its subpar bulk and the major annoyance factor it brings to the table (hypocrite me suggested Prankster Jellicent two weeks ago lol).
Great slate in general and for the first time, I'm not sure from the start which one I'll vote for. I'll run some calcs when/if I got the time.
One interesting thing to consider with Umbreon is that with a Slow Baton Pass, it can virtually ensure its Wish Pass recipient never gets touched by Status moves or things like Leech Seed, etc. by bouncing them back before leaving. It would certainly cut down how pressured it is to pass Wishes by avoiding wear-and-tear damage in addition to outright offensive attacks, though if it takes hits on those turns it has to heal itself a bit more.
Welcome back Sun King I prefered Celtic better and I hope that you do well as a theorymon council member again!
Anyways onto this weeks new slate,
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: An interesting idea, even though this desert shrew still might be outcompeted by its steel mole bretheren Excadrill, It still has a nice niche in being able to take down flying types that like to switch in to Earthquakeslookin at you skarm with Thousnad arrows, as well as be able to throw out the EQ straight after for spamming purposes, this is probably taking my vote.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: Because F*ck Espeon. In more seriousness most of OU's bouncers with the exception of Mega Sableye (which is a mega) have the stats to be more offensive pokes, so they are generally unable to do a very good job of being a bouncer. Umbreon is different, it has the stats to be a wall, and somewhat decent clericing ability with moves such as wish and heal bell.
Trevenant + Prankster: An interesting idea, but very similar to prankster Gourgeist. Although spamming prankster WoW and Dbond is fun, and it has slightly better bulk over Sableye (I think, don't quote me on that one) but I still see no reason to use this over sableye when sableye also has recover to enforce it's somewhat meager bulk.
Hariyama + Contrary: Sigh, what is with the new trend of giving fighting types contrary. Hariyama has quite a few moves to abuse contrary with, such as CC or Superpower, while superpower raises its attack and defense, making it hit harder, CC makes it bulkier by raising its defenses, making its 144 base HP all that much better, and making it nigh impossible to take down.
Anyways onto this weeks new slate,
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: An interesting idea, even though this desert shrew still might be outcompeted by its steel mole bretheren Excadrill, It still has a nice niche in being able to take down flying types that like to switch in to Earthquakes
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: Because F*ck Espeon. In more seriousness most of OU's bouncers with the exception of Mega Sableye (which is a mega) have the stats to be more offensive pokes, so they are generally unable to do a very good job of being a bouncer. Umbreon is different, it has the stats to be a wall, and somewhat decent clericing ability with moves such as wish and heal bell.
Trevenant + Prankster: An interesting idea, but very similar to prankster Gourgeist. Although spamming prankster WoW and Dbond is fun, and it has slightly better bulk over Sableye (I think, don't quote me on that one) but I still see no reason to use this over sableye when sableye also has recover to enforce it's somewhat meager bulk.
Hariyama + Contrary: Sigh, what is with the new trend of giving fighting types contrary. Hariyama has quite a few moves to abuse contrary with, such as CC or Superpower, while superpower raises its attack and defense, making it hit harder, CC makes it bulkier by raising its defenses, making its 144 base HP all that much better, and making it nigh impossible to take down.
Right, time to post my thoughts on the rest of the slate. Just as an aside, have a thought for the council, all of the 'mons in this week's slate either could have a cool niche or get massively increased viability from lower tiers - negativity ain't helping anybody, unless it's backed up by "better" suggestions.
Hariyama + Contrary
I like this one, kind of like the Pangoro that was slated back in the day, but with a hell of a lot more bulk and a different movepool. Due to high HP and low defenses, just one CC boost allows it to survive Talon's Sharp Brave Bird:
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 252 Def Hariyama: 248-294 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It would also make it a mean AV user with some wish support:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama in Sun: 153-180 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Maybe it could even run a crit-bait set of Rest Talk, CC, Superpower backed up by Pursuit support and a Sableye lure. Definitely coolio.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce
This is a really cool addition. Like seriously cool, and annoying as hell. Obviously comparable to Mega Sableye, it is actually bulkier than it on both spectrums, while obviously missing out on the W-o-W support offered by the ghost. The main bit where it suffers though (when directly compared to the Magic Bounce Ghost Satan of Doom), is actually on missing out on that Spin Blocking ability that makes Sableye the face of stall/semi-stall that it right now.
Despite this, it works as an excellent wish passer. Now that it can't be toxiced (MB exca aside) it can probably even drop the Heal Bell slot for Baton Pass, ensuring the 'Mon you want to heal gets in for free, while Foul Play ensures it's not used as set-up bait. It'll be an absolute a**ehole to take down for sure, while really REALLY annoying spike-stacking teams.
Trevenant + Prankster
I'll be honest, and say that this would definitely boost Trev up to bordeline OU, although it'd really miss out on its main form of healing in Harvest Sitrus. On a personal level though, I don't really like it, as I'm not sure it's enough to get all the way up. Prankster D-Bond though...
All in all, a good job by those concerned, and I'm not sure which 'mon is gonna win this slate.
Edit: Just realised Trev gets Skill Swap. HELLO. Too cool a check to Mega Gard, Altaria, Pinsir, and Sylveon to be true, might have some use on Stall teams.
Hariyama + Contrary
I like this one, kind of like the Pangoro that was slated back in the day, but with a hell of a lot more bulk and a different movepool. Due to high HP and low defenses, just one CC boost allows it to survive Talon's Sharp Brave Bird:
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 252 Def Hariyama: 248-294 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It would also make it a mean AV user with some wish support:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama in Sun: 153-180 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Maybe it could even run a crit-bait set of Rest Talk, CC, Superpower backed up by Pursuit support and a Sableye lure. Definitely coolio.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce
This is a really cool addition. Like seriously cool, and annoying as hell. Obviously comparable to Mega Sableye, it is actually bulkier than it on both spectrums, while obviously missing out on the W-o-W support offered by the ghost. The main bit where it suffers though (when directly compared to the Magic Bounce Ghost Satan of Doom), is actually on missing out on that Spin Blocking ability that makes Sableye the face of stall/semi-stall that it right now.
Despite this, it works as an excellent wish passer. Now that it can't be toxiced (MB exca aside) it can probably even drop the Heal Bell slot for Baton Pass, ensuring the 'Mon you want to heal gets in for free, while Foul Play ensures it's not used as set-up bait. It'll be an absolute a**ehole to take down for sure, while really REALLY annoying spike-stacking teams.
Trevenant + Prankster
I'll be honest, and say that this would definitely boost Trev up to bordeline OU, although it'd really miss out on its main form of healing in Harvest Sitrus. On a personal level though, I don't really like it, as I'm not sure it's enough to get all the way up. Prankster D-Bond though...
All in all, a good job by those concerned, and I'm not sure which 'mon is gonna win this slate.
Edit: Just realised Trev gets Skill Swap. HELLO. Too cool a check to Mega Gard, Altaria, Pinsir, and Sylveon to be true, might have some use on Stall teams.
Speaking of Charizard-Y: I'm on my phone and can't calculate it, but Hariyama has the ability Thick Fat, too. At +1 with 252 SpD and AV and Thick Fat - CharY would be surprised.
This ability is key for Hariyama's solid viability in the NU Tier. And with all the ice spam right now, plus CharY and Volcarona etc. (Hariyama also learns Stone Edge), AV-Sets wouldn't be so farfetch'd for OU.
This ability is key for Hariyama's solid viability in the NU Tier. And with all the ice spam right now, plus CharY and Volcarona etc. (Hariyama also learns Stone Edge), AV-Sets wouldn't be so farfetch'd for OU.
It would lose Thick Fat if it had Contrary - the calc I showed took that into account.
What the hell "trend of Contrary Fighting Types" is there? I've seen this post a few times and frankly, I don't get it at all. We slated Pangoro with Contrary a month or two (maybe even longer, I forget) ago, but that's legitimately all I can remember. We wouldn't have slated it if we didn't think it had a niche in OU, and when I get home, you can expect me to post a wall of mind-changing calcs that show that Contrary isn't some "mindless" buff that it appears some of you are insinuating.
Edit: Okay I forgot about Infernape, but I wouldn't call this a trend anyways. It's not relevant to the viability of the submission.
Edit: Okay I forgot about Infernape, but I wouldn't call this a trend anyways. It's not relevant to the viability of the submission.
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Okay so I guess i'll do something outside of posting once a week in voting this time (another week of awards winding down, guess i can relax...)
Got to love the big fat man of Hariyama. The guy is stuck in the lower tiers with Machamp's Attack, but with some more defensive use seen with thick fat (with still the issues of ya know, being slow and silly). Now, he gets contrary. Is he the opposite of a Sumo? On the contrary he is not! He is exactly a Sumo, so why does he get this power? Well, the idea of an AV Hari with Superpower spam is actually really funny. Just, ya know, without the thick fat. Could it be fun? Just find an oppurtunity to switch the fella in, and we may see some magic! Or ya know, might just be sad days. Course Close Combat (alliteration yes!) would be awesome.
Umbreon is just that fella who tries his damndest, but doesnt do better than others. Would Magic Bounce be the tipping point? He has less utility than Sable and junk....but he isnt a mega. That would be the thing I'd like as you could get interesting cores going on with that bugger, but its not my favorite. Hence I will not continue on with the black rabbit.
Trevenant is that Ghost Tree who will now be like the ghost's before him and attack before you. I hate the idea of infinite ghosts with prankster, no matter how fun it be.
Now the one that seemed the obvious for me. Yah i love Ground types. Sandslash is also a damn good one that just is hit hard by the generation gaps and the fact, ya know, moles are stronger cause they can use their other senses better cause they are blind. Now the Hedgehog can go attack beings in the air! It would allow for some nice shenanigans since he gets that Rush too with a CB Arrows attack. Sure, the issue is that he is still rather slow and not THAT strong (sorta compounded a bit more considering Thousand is 90 and all) but hey, this fella is a ground type, so I'm almost mandatory to throw my support behind it.
Ight thats just what I wanted to say. Later then
Got to love the big fat man of Hariyama. The guy is stuck in the lower tiers with Machamp's Attack, but with some more defensive use seen with thick fat (with still the issues of ya know, being slow and silly). Now, he gets contrary. Is he the opposite of a Sumo? On the contrary he is not! He is exactly a Sumo, so why does he get this power? Well, the idea of an AV Hari with Superpower spam is actually really funny. Just, ya know, without the thick fat. Could it be fun? Just find an oppurtunity to switch the fella in, and we may see some magic! Or ya know, might just be sad days. Course Close Combat (alliteration yes!) would be awesome.
Umbreon is just that fella who tries his damndest, but doesnt do better than others. Would Magic Bounce be the tipping point? He has less utility than Sable and junk....but he isnt a mega. That would be the thing I'd like as you could get interesting cores going on with that bugger, but its not my favorite. Hence I will not continue on with the black rabbit.
Trevenant is that Ghost Tree who will now be like the ghost's before him and attack before you. I hate the idea of infinite ghosts with prankster, no matter how fun it be.
Now the one that seemed the obvious for me. Yah i love Ground types. Sandslash is also a damn good one that just is hit hard by the generation gaps and the fact, ya know, moles are stronger cause they can use their other senses better cause they are blind. Now the Hedgehog can go attack beings in the air! It would allow for some nice shenanigans since he gets that Rush too with a CB Arrows attack. Sure, the issue is that he is still rather slow and not THAT strong (sorta compounded a bit more considering Thousand is 90 and all) but hey, this fella is a ground type, so I'm almost mandatory to throw my support behind it.
Ight thats just what I wanted to say. Later then
Contrary + Hariyama This is very similar to Contrary + Conkeldurr that I suggested a little while ago, but it was rejected, so whatever. This buff is alright. Hariyama on its own is like a Conkeldurr without Mach Punch, Drain Punch, or Elemental Punches. It would probably run the same Assault Vest set it runs in NU or maybe Resttalk. It'd still suffer from problems because the two boosting moves it wants so badly are both fighting type, leaving it with redundant coverage. It lacks coverage and recovery, which means that it really needs to get as strong as possible to muscle through things before it dies. It is also very weak to burn if it does not run rest.
Magic Bounce + Umbreon: Poor Umbreon. Every time it gets slated, it is outclassed by something else.
Prankster + Trevenant: I like Trevenant. I don't think I've ever suggested this because prankster is never received well. Either way, this'll probably get my vote because I like fun ghost types.
Thousand Arrows + Sandslash: I had to look up Thousand Arrows, and then I had to look up Sandslash to see why it has never been good. Sandslash is outclassed by Excadrill and was outclassed by Donphan before that. This buff is full of flavor, but this wouldn't be OU viable simply because of how underwhelming Sandslash is. It has a D rank level niche of potentially beating Skarmory with a ground type move and rapid spin to give a legitimate excuse to use something like this in the first place... It would be ok as a sand sweeper, but the only reason I can see to use it over Excadrill is if you hate Skarmory with a passion.
252+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-182 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Base 90 power Earthquake because Thousand Arrows isn't on Showdown Calculator)
Magic Bounce + Umbreon: Poor Umbreon. Every time it gets slated, it is outclassed by something else.
Prankster + Trevenant: I like Trevenant. I don't think I've ever suggested this because prankster is never received well. Either way, this'll probably get my vote because I like fun ghost types.
Thousand Arrows + Sandslash: I had to look up Thousand Arrows, and then I had to look up Sandslash to see why it has never been good. Sandslash is outclassed by Excadrill and was outclassed by Donphan before that. This buff is full of flavor, but this wouldn't be OU viable simply because of how underwhelming Sandslash is. It has a D rank level niche of potentially beating Skarmory with a ground type move and rapid spin to give a legitimate excuse to use something like this in the first place... It would be ok as a sand sweeper, but the only reason I can see to use it over Excadrill is if you hate Skarmory with a passion.
252+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-182 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Base 90 power Earthquake because Thousand Arrows isn't on Showdown Calculator)
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows Totally agree with this post. Sandslash, while cool, would be very underwhelming as it is very weak compared to driller and is quite frail with out defensive investment. Its typing isn't also as solid as drillers, as he doesn't have key resistances compared to excadrill. Being as slow as he is I just don't think that this buff would propel him to a high level, the most I could see this thing going would be bl2. Knock off is nice, but slash would require lots of team support as he is slow out of sand and weak with out a boost. This in conjunction with how pressured it would be against anything in OU due to the power the Pokemon in OU have would leave it to be mediocre.
Hariyama + Contrary is meh due to a loss of thick fat, thus making it not as attractive due to it not being able to "check" zard y and weavile. It has no recovery along with an attack stat that isn't bad but would desire a higher one, low speed, and would also be easily pressured due to it not having the greatest bulk and no recovery. It also doesn't help that he doesn't have mach punch.
Trevenant + Prankster would be decent due to him having higher bulk than sableye but a less effectibe typing at the same time. Its just a bummer that he wouldnt have synthesis, making him reliant on leech seed and horn leech (which wont heal him much in OU). The only thing he has over sableye is prankster destiny bond. He is pretty much a carbon copy of sableye with a better attacking stat, slightly better defenses, but a typing that is worse, and no recovery.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce now this is something that could actually be effective. Umbreon is already usable in OU, while not the best, it isn't absolutely terrible. It has team support in Wish + Heal bell and a decent offensive move in Foul Play. Yes Umbreon would be passive, but physical attackers wouldnt appreciate a Foul Play {0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 178-211 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock}. It can take on every hazard setter in the game with its move pool, since it also has taunt allowing it to beat stall teams. This would be great for balance teams, as stall cant status it or get hazards on the field all the while Umbreon keeps the mons from recovering while taking no damage from any of their attacks. Against offensive teams it wouldn't be too effective, but it would do its job of keeping hazards off the field. It is weak to come common attacking types in Fighting, Fairy, and Bug so it doesn't cover he weaknesses of other magic bounce users, but the fact that it doesn't take up a mega slot is wonderful and would allow a very splashable mon. He provides a good special wall, being able to check lando I (without focus blast, which isn't that common) 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. In a meta game heavily influenced by hazard, hazard control is very important; It is easily seen that umbreon would be able to find a nice niche for many teams.
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I thought there were a specific post stating that slapping stuff like Prankster/Contrary/Magic Bounce to random stuff and making them strong af is not the direction this project will be heading.
Regardless, I still regret being late on the new slates. Also thanks to Recreant who showed poor Thunderus-T some love (It wasn't my nom, but he does need love).
Anyway,
Trevenant + Prankster: How about no? (Insert meme bear pic here) Sorry, I just despise prankster Ghost types, specially the ones who just live to annoy. Although a lot of Trevenant's longevity came from the fact that he gets infinite subs. Now since he doesn't learn synthesis, leech seed alone wont be enough. I guess he has the best offensive presence among prankster users bar Bannete-M. Speaking of Bannete-M, he is also the living proof that offensive presence alone doesn't count for much on a prankster user.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: On the first glance, it appears to be a worse Sable-M with cleric capacity and no mega stone opportunity cost. Unlike Sable-M he has three glaring weakness and a lack of wil-o-wisp. He can not spin block either. Also recover>wish when it come's to his own healing. Looking closer, he is a mix of chansey and sable-M in one slot, while being outclassed by both in their respective job. Curse sets will be more viable than before, but the meta still has various strong fighting/fairy types who can destroy him in seconds. Lead fighting types are pretty common, and umby isn't beating them. This dampens his anti-hazard potential a fair bit. The real niche of bounce Umby will be that he can solve the puzzle for Mega Bro stall teams, who will appreciate a magic bouncer who can shrug of special attacks and provide cleric support. Now stall/semi stall teams has a reason to not pick Mega Eye now. I'd welcome Magic Bounce Umby's addition for that reason alone.
Hariyama + Contrary: At first I thought this ought to be pretty good, specially since he already is a decent av user. Then I realized he loses his only special resists. Thick fat is what made Hariyama what it is. Base 50 speed means he can not pull off a scarf set in the same vein as Malamar. Also simply boosting defenses has never been anything more than gimmick in competitive pokemon (Cosmic power sigil and clef comes to mind, who at least had stored power), so I can't really see close combat being too good. Rest talk too won't be too good, since his best two coverage move comes in the shape of fighting/dark, and extremely popular fairies shit all over it. What makes it worse is that, he doesn't have drain punch. Fake out/Bullet punch is weak, lack of mach punch isn't helping. Outside of good base hp and cc/superpower, he simply doesn't have the attributes to abuse contrary well.
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: Easily my most favorite one here, and one I can see being underestimated. Its true that Mold Breaker Excadrill will be the overall better spinner. On the other hand, as a Sand sweeper, Sandslash is capable of getting past mons that Excadrill can only dream off. He is not outclassed by drill, far from it. With Jolly max speed he gets 251 speed, enough to outrunning Scarf Chomp and below. 75/110 physical bulk isn't bad by any means. Pure ground is necessarily a bad defensive typing and Sandslash isn't weak to ground moves himself, another thing he has over excadrill. But what thousand arrows give him though, is an absolute spammable move, not allowing opposing team to keep moving around their ground immunes to stall out the sand turns. After one sd, only thing that can stand upto him are rare grass types, some of which can still be ko-ed by running poison jab as coverage.
The idea is you setup sd while the opponent immediately runs to his physical tanks/walls, only to find them handily beaten. With the ground neutrality he can go live a hit and 2hko back. I'm now starting to think he would can even be great partner to drill, destroying the counters that drill has problem with.
Also why wouldn't a physical ground type attacker hate Skarmory/Landorus-T/Gliscor with passion lol? You could just slap them and call it a day for any Sand sweeper. But not anymore.
Oh another thing, doesn't thousand arrow work like smack down in that it drops the flyer to the ground? In that case, it can somewhat work as a support move as well, letting other eq users clean up/force switches after Slash has done its job.
Regardless, I still regret being late on the new slates. Also thanks to Recreant who showed poor Thunderus-T some love (It wasn't my nom, but he does need love).
Anyway,
Trevenant + Prankster: How about no? (Insert meme bear pic here) Sorry, I just despise prankster Ghost types, specially the ones who just live to annoy. Although a lot of Trevenant's longevity came from the fact that he gets infinite subs. Now since he doesn't learn synthesis, leech seed alone wont be enough. I guess he has the best offensive presence among prankster users bar Bannete-M. Speaking of Bannete-M, he is also the living proof that offensive presence alone doesn't count for much on a prankster user.
Umbreon + Magic Bounce: On the first glance, it appears to be a worse Sable-M with cleric capacity and no mega stone opportunity cost. Unlike Sable-M he has three glaring weakness and a lack of wil-o-wisp. He can not spin block either. Also recover>wish when it come's to his own healing. Looking closer, he is a mix of chansey and sable-M in one slot, while being outclassed by both in their respective job. Curse sets will be more viable than before, but the meta still has various strong fighting/fairy types who can destroy him in seconds. Lead fighting types are pretty common, and umby isn't beating them. This dampens his anti-hazard potential a fair bit. The real niche of bounce Umby will be that he can solve the puzzle for Mega Bro stall teams, who will appreciate a magic bouncer who can shrug of special attacks and provide cleric support. Now stall/semi stall teams has a reason to not pick Mega Eye now. I'd welcome Magic Bounce Umby's addition for that reason alone.
Hariyama + Contrary: At first I thought this ought to be pretty good, specially since he already is a decent av user. Then I realized he loses his only special resists. Thick fat is what made Hariyama what it is. Base 50 speed means he can not pull off a scarf set in the same vein as Malamar. Also simply boosting defenses has never been anything more than gimmick in competitive pokemon (Cosmic power sigil and clef comes to mind, who at least had stored power), so I can't really see close combat being too good. Rest talk too won't be too good, since his best two coverage move comes in the shape of fighting/dark, and extremely popular fairies shit all over it. What makes it worse is that, he doesn't have drain punch. Fake out/Bullet punch is weak, lack of mach punch isn't helping. Outside of good base hp and cc/superpower, he simply doesn't have the attributes to abuse contrary well.
Sandslash + Thousand Arrows: Easily my most favorite one here, and one I can see being underestimated. Its true that Mold Breaker Excadrill will be the overall better spinner. On the other hand, as a Sand sweeper, Sandslash is capable of getting past mons that Excadrill can only dream off. He is not outclassed by drill, far from it. With Jolly max speed he gets 251 speed, enough to outrunning Scarf Chomp and below. 75/110 physical bulk isn't bad by any means. Pure ground is necessarily a bad defensive typing and Sandslash isn't weak to ground moves himself, another thing he has over excadrill. But what thousand arrows give him though, is an absolute spammable move, not allowing opposing team to keep moving around their ground immunes to stall out the sand turns. After one sd, only thing that can stand upto him are rare grass types, some of which can still be ko-ed by running poison jab as coverage.
All calcs adjusted to 90 bp Earthquake, and removed ground immune atributes
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 253-300 (79.3 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 163-193 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 187-220 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 136-162 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 227-269 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 94-112 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 289-341 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 361-429 (108 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 66-78 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 30.8% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 253-300 (79.3 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 163-193 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 187-220 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 136-162 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 227-269 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 94-112 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 289-341 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 361-429 (108 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash: 66-78 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 30.8% chance to 4HKO
The idea is you setup sd while the opponent immediately runs to his physical tanks/walls, only to find them handily beaten. With the ground neutrality he can go live a hit and 2hko back. I'm now starting to think he would can even be great partner to drill, destroying the counters that drill has problem with.
Also why wouldn't a physical ground type attacker hate Skarmory/Landorus-T/Gliscor with passion lol? You could just slap them and call it a day for any Sand sweeper. But not anymore.
Oh another thing, doesn't thousand arrow work like smack down in that it drops the flyer to the ground? In that case, it can somewhat work as a support move as well, letting other eq users clean up/force switches after Slash has done its job.
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The thing is, while he would be scary at +2 but I feel like it would be hard for Slash to get that without being toxiced by stall or without dying to offense, while Excadrill has an easier time due to its steel typing. What exactly would Slash be able to set up on, and without the calc of skarm+Bronzong, what does he really break through? Because he's not breaking past the other mons as he would have to set up the turn they switch in. Not to mention that Excadrill's Iron Head out-damages Slash's Thousand Arrows, on every thing that is not a steel type, so he is absolutely out classed.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 278-329 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 305-360 (95.6 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Driller has better typing, and a secondary STAB that allows him to do much more than Slash could ever dream. And if you are that concerned about beating Lando+Gliscor, run Air Ballon (which provides great utility) +1 252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 235-277 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and if skarm is a problem run a Magnezone as mag has much more offensive and defensive utility.
Not to mention the knock of argument is pretty garbage, as the most relavant things to hit with knock off are the Latis, who still die to +2 driller (with Air ballon still)
+2 252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 322-381 (100.9 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 382-450 (119.7 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only thing that Slash has over driller is having a more spamable move. Also due to Slash's low speed he has to run basically max speed (248 speed evs) to outpace lando t in sand. I will say he does have better defense than I thought however, as defensive Lando T EQ isn't a guaranteed 2HKO. His special defense is horrible though :)
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4º Trevenant + Prankster other ghost with prankster?
ok, no mega-slot, but its charm was harvest+sitrus berry or rest+lum
3º Sandslash + Thousand Arrows Mold excadrill with worst speed and atk imo, but hit skar and landorus
i like sand rush + arrows, but sandslash has no steel resistences make him a quite frail
2º Hariyama + Contrary i like Superpower+AV or resttalk superpower+filler the obvious set
double screen light clay + drum chestorest and close combat rises defenses<<<< edit contrary belly drum -_- lol
difficult to deal but not impossible
1º Umbreon + Magic Bounce a solid counter to rotom-w, better than synchronize+heal beal, has good defenses to check SR setter and a good offensive move foul play
many weaknesses not make it invincible, u-turn weak
can pass work up or curse with more security without roar/taunt fear
could use "strange" things like yawn, torment, spite or confuse ray
without afraid of toxic or will o wisp umbreon can show your potential even your many weaknesses
ok, no mega-slot, but its charm was harvest+sitrus berry or rest+lum
3º Sandslash + Thousand Arrows Mold excadrill with worst speed and atk imo, but hit skar and landorus
i like sand rush + arrows, but sandslash has no steel resistences make him a quite frail
2º Hariyama + Contrary i like Superpower+AV or resttalk superpower+filler the obvious set
double screen light clay + drum chestorest and close combat rises defenses<<<< edit contrary belly drum -_- lol
difficult to deal but not impossible
1º Umbreon + Magic Bounce a solid counter to rotom-w, better than synchronize+heal beal, has good defenses to check SR setter and a good offensive move foul play
many weaknesses not make it invincible, u-turn weak
can pass work up or curse with more security without roar/taunt fear
could use "strange" things like yawn, torment, spite or confuse ray
without afraid of toxic or will o wisp umbreon can show your potential even your many weaknesses
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