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I think that my main problem with Deoxys-A and Zekrom being potentially banned is that most of the arguments are simply that they have no counters that are guaranteed to be able to switch in on and beat any given set.
I mean ffs Emboar in standard OU doesn't have any direct counters that can switch in on it and beat it 1v1 and you know where Emboar is? Its D rank (though it should by higher imo). But do you know why Emboar is D rank? Because it is on a timer. It wears itself down to the point where it is easily KOed by just about anything. And is easily revenge killed. To me this is still sounding extremely similar to Deoxys-A, only Deoxys starts at a point where it is easily KOed rather than wearing itself down.
Now I'm not trying to say Deoxys-A should be D rank too lol. But I certainly don't think we can ban it off of this argument that is has no switch ins, especially when it is so incredibly heavily reliant on predictions, in a meta game which has the potential to be so incredibly hard to predict, given that anything can run anything.
Jernmax you're a pretty creative character, and you've already claimed that you could make a stall team in this tier, but not with Deoxys-A in it. I'm pretty sure that you would have at least one move slot to spare to at least attempt to make a deoxys lure. Like I've said before it dies to any attack so surely you can pick a passive pokemon which you notice gives a lot of Deoxys-As that sense of security needed to switch in, throw an attack on that pokemon, then bop Deoxys on the switch.
Could someone at least post some replays of how devastating these suspected pokemon are because I'm just not seeing how they could be so hard to play around and adapt to at this point.
0 SpA Luvdisc Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-A: 202-238 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (0 investment on a freaking Luvdisc)
252+ Atk Blissey Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 220-261 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (It has 10 base attack lol)
I'll do that, I've already made a semi working stall team which is ruined by Deoxys-A I'll battle someone that has Zekrom and Deoxys-A on their team and it'll hopefully be sufficient proof. The fact that Deoxys-A outspeeds almost everything and Zekrom has the bulk to live common priority is what pushes it over the top, if it was base 80 it wouldn't be a problem. In the viability rankings thats coming soon Deoxys-A is in A rank, as it struggles against offence. Primal don and Gengar are S rank, for those who are curious.
Eh... Thanks for the compliment. It's pretty difficult to lure it because I can never decide when it comes in, and its ability too 2HKO anything in the tier is devastating for stall so I can't directly switch something in. Having extreme speed gives said pokemon a sense of opportunity cost, Escaviliar with Flash fire, Iron head, morning sun, will o wisp can scary it out but still loses 70% from thunderbolt.
1. manaphy inheriting from arcanine or other intimidate mon or multiscale(also arcanine/dragonite has extremespeed )
-1 4 Atk Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 110-133 (27.2 - 32.9%) -- 67.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. megascizor/forretress inheriting from anything (use ff for fail proof or intimidate for less damage or prankster encore from volbeat and whimsicot (and bp) for counter sweep)
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Mega Scizor: 142-169 (41.3 - 49.2%)
3. intimidate Ho-oh
-1 4 Atk Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 165-196 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 130-153 (31.3 - 36.8%) -- 75.1% chance to 3HKO
4. regen av xerneas/ av sylveon
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Xerneas: 160-188 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Xerneas U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 354-418 (146.8 - 173.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also you can always u-turn for the ko on deoxys-a :)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 491-580 (121.5 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 175-208 (51 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 242-285 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ho-Oh: 174-205 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - Rocks and assault vest is a pretty poor choice. Especially when fully investment. You can also just switch in once, the first time you only regenerate back up too roughly 80% which means you're 2HKOd by thunderbolt, assuming you're regenerator. If you're regenerator you still die to Gunk shot
16 Atk Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 309-367 (74.4 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if people are running life orb 4 attack deoxys attack...they are clearly doing it wrong.
-1 252 Atk Protean Deoxys-A Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Protean Deoxys-A Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Ho-Oh: 210-248 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
i concurr that manaphy is a counter, but hooh kinda doesnt appriciate tpunches so id call it a check due to it either risking the espeed on the switch or dying to the overpredict...and grass knot/tpunch/ice beam/low kick basically lets it 2hko/ohko everything relivant. and id go as far as saying its probably the better set over life orb. and life orb variants of the mentioned sets basically worsen the deal for these guys.
252 Atk Protean Deoxys-A Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 163-193 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
again, i'll call this a counter, but just as i said above, life orb trashes all over this.
and clearly scizor NEEDS intimidate in order to take on 252 attack low kicks, but otherwise its a counter to my set.
remember, when posting counters, they need to be worst case scenarios (excluding hax), (basically assume 252 in both stats in deoxys' case due to it being equally threatening on both sides) none of these things can safely take on life orb 252 tpunches(or low kick in scizors case)
Kecleon gets thunderbolt, which is more powerful than thunderpunch. Running a ton of investment into physical attack is pretty redundant unless you chose to go full physical with fake out, sucker punch, shadow sneak and gunk shot or something along those lines, doesn't really matter. I already explained those mons weren't counters, just informing you that deoxys-A has no reason to run physical invesment.
Dark pulse / hydro pump 2hkoes scizor / forrestress, gunk shot ohkoes pixies, hydro pump and gunk kill ho-oh. Yes greninja is a thing.
manaphy / suicune are good counters imo.
Also can anyone tell me what zekrom has that haxorus or kyuremB doesn't? Is it just the thunder punch stab?
Zekrom is bulkier, resisted to flying. Has a better stab, electric is great. It has a better chance of getting up a swords dance or dragon dance. Dragon electric is a pretty darn good typing water, fire, grass, flying, steel is great.
Dark pulse / hydro pump 2hkoes scizor / forrestress, gunk shot ohkoes pixies, hydro pump and gunk kill ho-oh. Yes greninja is a thing.
manaphy / suicune are good counters imo.
Also can anyone tell me what zekrom has that haxorus or kyuremB doesn't? Is it just the thunder punch stab?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Zekrom Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Never mind that Zekrom can just burn it and set up on it
Note that Mega Altaria for starters runs special sets to counter it. Second, you can't set up on it if you don't have roost, and if you do have roost, it won't be packing earthquake anyways.
I'm leaning heavily towards ban for deoxys A. I just simply realised that while protean is a thing that can dent stall, other sets like magic guard + sash are almost guaranteed to get 1 kill against offense if not more and is still pretty hard to check.
I'm not getting why so much bashing against anything that can threaten stall. Look there are a lot of incredibly hard hitting mons, but that doesn't mean that all them should be banned because someone's stall team can't beat them. Really ppl get creative, wanna a good check to zekrom, use prankster xerneas with encore (or prankster wisp if sableye is ok) :/ you can even set up on it or baton pass a subs and gg the opponent with some fearsome sweeper of your own. Stall teams can and should have one win condition. Also using outrage on calc is quite lame, because it's horrible move overall. You lock yourself and get revenge killed next turn. Finally comparing like stall had checks to anything on regular inheritance, I recall mega-gya sweeping any stall team by itself and no one complained because it sucked against any offensive team
We're not bashing against anything that threatens stall. I would definitely be going crazy over soul dew mega launcher latios, which requires stall to run max sdef regenvest kyogre or chansey just to beat it. This doesn't mention that chansey can be taken advantage of...and one lure can make it die quite easily.
Mega Gyara didn't sweep every stall team for starters, even the subsmash set rather than the sucker punch set couldn't just 6-0 all stall teams. Also, the sucker punch set demolished both primary playstyles; it was just as good vs offense. The sub set also can beat single priority users as well. To make the claim that it 6-0s stall and sucks vs offense just isn't true.
I think that my main problem with Deoxys-A and Zekrom being potentially banned is that most of the arguments are simply that they have no counters that are guaranteed to be able to switch in on and beat any given set.
I mean ffs Emboar in standard OU doesn't have any direct counters that can switch in on it and beat it 1v1 and you know where Emboar is? Its D rank (though it should by higher imo). But do you know why Emboar is D rank? Because it is on a timer. It wears itself down to the point where it is easily KOed by just about anything. And is easily revenge killed. To me this is still sounding extremely similar to Deoxys-A, only Deoxys starts at a point where it is easily KOed rather than wearing itself down.
Now I'm not trying to say Deoxys-A should be D rank too lol. But I certainly don't think we can ban it off of this argument that is has no switch ins, especially when it is so incredibly heavily reliant on predictions, in a meta game which has the potential to be so incredibly hard to predict, given that anything can run anything.
Jernmax you're a pretty creative character, and you've already claimed that you could make a stall team in this tier, but not with Deoxys-A in it. I'm pretty sure that you would have at least one move slot to spare to at least attempt to make a deoxys lure. Like I've said before it dies to any attack so surely you can pick a passive pokemon which you notice gives a lot of Deoxys-As that sense of security needed to switch in, throw an attack on that pokemon, then bop Deoxys on the switch.
Could someone at least post some replays of how devastating these suspected pokemon are because I'm just not seeing how they could be so hard to play around and adapt to at this point.
0 SpA Luvdisc Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-A: 202-238 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (0 investment on a freaking Luvdisc)
252+ Atk Blissey Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 220-261 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (It has 10 base attack lol)
Sure, it has no switchins, but the main issue with these two is the question we have to ask ourselves: is the opportunity cost in using them to beat their counters so low that they are easy enough to fit on teams that they become uncompetitive? Take your Emboar example. Now make it bulky, give it 50 speed, and give it dragon dance. Now is it competitive? It hits so hard it has no counters, it can set up, it has the speed it wants, its bulky, immune to burn...I'm just saying that the actual effectiveness of Deo-A is irrelevant; if stall can't exist with its presence, it needs to go. In fact, its A- on our preliminary viability rankings (not finished yet).
1. manaphy inheriting from arcanine or other intimidate mon or multiscale(also arcanine/dragonite has extremespeed )
-1 4 Atk Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 110-133 (27.2 - 32.9%) -- 67.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. megascizor/forretress inheriting from anything (use ff for fail proof or intimidate for less damage or prankster encore from volbeat and whimsicot (and bp) for counter sweep)
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Mega Scizor: 142-169 (41.3 - 49.2%)
3. intimidate Ho-oh
-1 4 Atk Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 165-196 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 130-153 (31.3 - 36.8%) -- 75.1% chance to 3HKO
4. regen av xerneas/ av sylveon
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Xerneas: 160-188 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Xerneas U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 354-418 (146.8 - 173.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also you can always u-turn for the ko on deoxys-a :)
1. Manaphy is probably inferior to kyogre, but even then, you would want to inherit from masquerain for intimidate because the movepool is far superior. Ogre is like special suicune with more offensive presence. Even then, however, there is the issue of Thunderbolt and grass knot (albeit gk probably sucks in this meta, it was good in standard though).
2. Not bad, except forretress is absolutely terrible and you should never use it even in this meta. Mega Zor needs the investment to avoid the 2hko, and the Mega can't have flash fire. Forretress lacks the special bulk to tank neutral hits.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-A Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 242-285 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
3. Ho-oh again is beaten by tbolt if correct predictions, and SR ruins it. Its too much pressure for ho-oh especially if rocks are up.
4. Fairies are the one true potential counter, but regenvest just isn't that good. also, Xerneas > Sylveon (not to mention sylveon's u-turn doesn't ohko). If anybody is concerned, however, it will just start running iron tail at the expense of one moveslot. You might want to argue the opportunity cost of not having another move, however the opportunity cost is irrelevant if its efficient, not to mention that it doesn't need all 4 moves to wreck a lot of teams. Not to mention that greninja variants fuck it with gunk shot.
Dark pulse / hydro pump 2hkoes scizor / forrestress, gunk shot ohkoes pixies, hydro pump and gunk kill ho-oh. Yes greninja is a thing.
manaphy / suicune are good counters imo.
Also can anyone tell me what zekrom has that haxorus or kyuremB doesn't? Is it just the thunder punch stab?
Thunderpunch 2hkos anything relevant in the tier. Bulky grounds can beat haxorus in standards, and it also lacks the bulk that zekrom has. Zekrom has a challenging typing to break, as well as great bulk. Haxorus lacks those two factors, and also doesn't have stab thunderpunch (which is zekrom's main selling point, rather than outrage like haxorus is).
In all honesty, Deo-A probably is banworthy with the inclusion of magic guard and a few other sets it can run. Not to mention it can easily beat unaware if you want to BP it boosts.
After sleeping on it, Zekrom can PROBABLY stay. It does have counters, albeit specialized, and stall teams have plenty of ways to deal with it especially with the re-introduction of sableye chansey.
Also, you need magic bounce to beat stall with offense atm. You basically have to set up on it, but then that stupid volbeat comes in and fucks you.
I don't think you need Magic Bounce to beat Stall with Offense. The pokes in Ubers has enough power to break Stall without set up. All you need is Stealth Rock, which isn't that hard to find a chance to set up. Primal Raydon is immune to Will o wisp and 1HKOs Chansey and Lugia after Stealth Rock. It also 2HKOs Giratina if it's not Physically defensive. For other things, you can use the mentioned Soul Dew Mega Launcher Latios or Primordial Sea Palkia (Chansey and Physically Defensive Giratina both gets 2HKO'd by Specs Water Spout, but well, you only have one Giratina, so its your choice to wall Primal Raydon or Psea Palkia).
Flash Fire Skarmory counters Primal Raydon, but well, there is Victini as a donor who also got V-Create and Bolt Strike to deal with FF Skarm (even though generally Ray is better).
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia in Harsh Sunshine: 372-438 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 263-310 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 226-268 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina in Heavy Rain: 285-336 (56.6 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 343-405 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lugia in Heavy Rain: 459-541 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I don't think you need Magic Bounce to beat Stall with Offense. The pokes in Ubers has enough power to break Stall without set up. All you need is Stealth Rock, which isn't that hard to find a chance to set up. Primal Raydon is immune to Will o wisp and 1HKOs Chansey and Lugia after Stealth Rock. It also 2HKOs Giratina if it's not Physically defensive. For other things, you can use the mentioned Soul Dew Mega Launcher Latios or Primordial Sea Palkia (Chansey and Physically Defensive Giratina both gets 2HKO'd by Specs Water Spout, but well, you only have one Giratina, so its your choice to wall Primal Raydon or Psea Palkia).
Flash Fire Skarmory counters Primal Raydon, but well, there is Victini as a donor who also got V-Create and Bolt Strike to deal with FF Skarm (even though generally Ray is better).
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia in Harsh Sunshine: 372-438 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 263-310 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 226-268 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina in Heavy Rain: 285-336 (56.6 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 343-405 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lugia in Heavy Rain: 459-541 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kecleon gets thunderbolt, which is more powerful than thunderpunch. Running a ton of investment into physical attack is pretty redundant unless you chose to go full physical with fake out, sucker punch, shadow sneak and gunk shot or something along those lines, doesn't really matter. I already explained those mons weren't counters, just informing you that deoxys-A has no reason to run physical invesment.
actually tpunch is arguably better, since although tbolt has more power, everything tbolt wants to hit (lugia, mawile, kyogre, ho-oh) all usually have tendancies to run specially defensive or have massive spc def compared to def
actually tpunch is arguably better, since although tbolt has more power, everything tbolt wants to hit (lugia, mawile, kyogre, ho-oh) all usually have tendancies to run specially defensive or have massive spc def compared to def
Check that, its standard inheritance clauses, and standard ubers clauses, however remember that stuff like inh from sable and gale wings are not standard inheritance clauses. Everything that was defaultbanned in inheritance is here as well, and nothing else.
Check that, its standard inheritance clauses, and standard ubers clauses, however remember that stuff like inh from sable and gale wings are not standard inheritance clauses. Everything that was defaultbanned in inheritance is here as well, and nothing else.
Ok, I never said chansey/sheddy were banned, but STANDARD INHERITANCE LIMITATIONS APPLY. This is INHEITANCE UBERS, NOT INHERITANCE AG. don't confuse the two please. Nobody can or will use sturdinja because that is not what this meta is about, that is very separate from inheritance AG.
Inherits from Clefable. This blanket checks so many setup sweepers. QD Kyogre dies, lots of Espeeders die, a bunch of others die. Clefable gives you Meteor Mash which is clutch, and Wishpassing is always nice. Unfortunately the weakness to Ground really hurts, but if you have a strong answer to Raydon-P (which you really should have) you will be ok.
