NP: Doubles OU Stage 2 - Monster | Mence is banned | Hoopa not Banned

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ryo yamada2001

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I'm sure that there are people that are going to be saying this post is bad because "hurrdurr you just said everything everyone else said" and i really want to get this off:
qsns said:
Why does it sound like i'm regurgitating arguments from the last thread + earlier posts? because there's literally nothing else to be said.
thanks qsns

Now lets start out, why is this thing retested? bc someone just hopped on the council and being one of the supporters of "unban mence" for a long time and i don't know why bc this thing is broken lmaoooo but okay lets go

The first thing the council should ask themselves "is this retest going to help the metagame in a positive way?" and i don't know if they actually asked them, because the answer is obvious: no. There is literally not a single way how this retest improves the metagame at all and i'm going to break it down. Again; this is like I'm restating everything that has been said in the past; because there is literally nothing else I can say.


couldn't find a good mence sprite rofl
Story about the fucking cheap-ass free-wins mon aka salamence and how the retest fucked up the meta

Lets start out with something from a different thread, and something from a different perspective, coming from a highly intelligent player who actually does know what he's doing unlike many of the people here
I got this quote out of the recent DOU players of the week (check it out this week is with stratos!)
Pocket said:
My only qualm right now, is that it seems like Singles OU seem to be a lot more diverse than DOU. Just compare the # of diff megas used between Singles OU vs DOU, for instance. Also, sometimes it feels like I'm watching mirror teams fighting each other when I'm watching a Doubles match. I believe there is still much more exploration that can be done with our format, and people shouldn't be afraid of branching out from the proven few monsters to uncover hidden gems. Fortunately, we have quite an innovative leader, so many people would hopefully follow suit! Just don't bash too hard on people who are trying to test new things >_<. Excuse me if my observation is incorrect, though.
just read through that quote; it states that singles is more diverse than doubles. and that's true in some ways. In singles there are a lot more viable megas and tier 1 pokemon, and Pocket thinks that there is a lot more innovation to be found within this metagame

Now lets look at the main viable mega pokemon in doubles;
charizard-y, diancie, kanga, and metagross

you can call this metagame centralized already, especially looking at which megas are viable in singles;
(these are all S/A tier pokemon from the viability rankings from OU so don't get mad if I got something wrong)
altaria, metagross, charizard-x, diancie, gyarados, lopunny, sableye, scizor, alakazam, chari-y, garde, latias, manectric, venusaur, aerodactyl, pinsir and slowbro

you could say that the OU viability rankings are very top heavy, and the thing is with singles is that you can just get boned by a single pokemon, as you simply cannot prepare for everything the singles meta has to offer, which is easier in doubles.

doubles meta centralized? indefinitely. there is a grand total of 4 viable megas, and there aren't just all that many pokemon in tier 1. now what does the salamence retest do to this meta?

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 475-561 (159.9 - 188.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rekt

+1 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 360-424 (149.3 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rekt

+1 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
at a normal nature i don't think it gets ohko'd all the time

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 387-456 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rekt


okay maybe these calculations look a bit too scary, as it just bones everything in the meta, as well as outspeed most things with a dragon dance up, which isn't difficult to do. also this is assuming that your salamence is running earthquake, which it should. I can't understand that there are people that still just run 1 attack because Return+Earthquake+DDance+Protect or even Roost is solid as fuck already, I've seen people using rock slide but ppl are doing that just for the flinches and earthquake is much better, even though it doesn't really work with jirachi on the field together. the thing I want to show with these calcs is that it's ridiculous that Salamence can simply just destroy all four of the (so-called) overcentralizing megas. and what do they against it?

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence in Sun: 148-175 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence in Sun: 222-261 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 169-201 (50.9 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
48 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 348-410 (104.8 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO ayy actually good
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 213-252 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Okay so what you might be thinking right here is;
ayy these calcs are actually good, I can fuck up a Salamence with Diancie easily!
ahaha no

what i've been showing you is the wrong salamence calcs;
252 hp / 44+ atk / 212 spe is still okay and is the set used by one of the sample teams here, and i'm pretty sure that there are people that run way more bulk and there are people that just run 252+ atk/252 spe, I love running the doubles 252 set because it's easy to just destroy teams with it, the only thing that fucks you up is like icy wind cress

even though:
0 SpA Cresselia Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 136-164 (40.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 240 HP / 12 Def Cresselia: 219-258 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO


Statistics about (Mega)-Salamence
Typing: Dragon/Flying

it's weak to other dragon moves which are basically non-existant in the doubles metagame unless you count kyube's dragon claw or people using dragonite, which you probably shouldn't

fairy, there are 2 pokemon that use this the most often; gardevoir and sylveon, both are probably going to die at even seeing salamence, or even jirachi. the thing is that their hyper voice doesn't get stopped by follow me which is a very nice attribute. there are people that are running sylveon TR now just to beat the fuck out of mence

rock, the infamous rock slide exists, but is there anything else that really does this

ice, probably the most common hidden power, and it's a fairly common attacking typing as well, which is incredibly good, especially in this meta as you fuck up not only mence but also shaymin-sky and landorus-therian, two great pokemon in this meta.
Mega-Evolution: Aerilate
lol, this makes it just so much easier for salamence to fuck up your opponents, if you run return or double edge you can kill such a big portion of the metagame, the only things you don't hit effectively is zapdos and thundurus. now zapdos is less relevant but thundurus is actually a nice mence beater with HP Ice

if jirachi didn't exist
Pre-Mega Evolution: Intimidate
Intimidate is one of the most important abilities in this game as you can simply beat many physical attackers with it, Salamence legit gets one of the better abilities in the game, as you can beat both physical attackers on the field of your opponent, which is great. Most teams are built by guidelines and a lot of people even include a Intimidater on these guidelines; Salamence fits this role.
Bulk
95/130/90

yo this thing isn't frail, it doesn't get fucked up by physical attacks which is ridiculous

252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 116-138 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

like yo, it just kinda checks one of the best physical attackers of the meta like yo what the fuck man
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 116-138 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
208 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 213-252 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


The 3 most relevant physical attackers of the metagame can't even OHKO Salamence, and this is not even the bulky set (which people like to run more often nowadays). So basically keep in mind everything will 2HKO like 50% of the time bc I cba to do bulky calcs rn.
Now when you send in Salamence before it's mega-evolution, it even gets the Intimidate off.

-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 141-168 (42.4 - 50.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
-1 208 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 150-176 (45.1 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 78-92 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- 74.5% chance to 4HKO


On the physically defensive side you'll have definitely less trouble than on the specially defensive side, considering you have a lot less special bulk. That being said:
Final Demolition said:
it has 145 base attack, that's too much for Doubkes pokemons(it's even greater than of Arceus), 120 base speed, 130 base defense(has more defense than Arceus), lol that's too much for a sweeler, adding some evs in HP, makes it even more bulky, it doesn't have many checks,
Physical Strength
The thing is that every Normal moves turns into a Flying move and gets x1.3 power, that means you have a quite lot of relevant moves that Salamence can use;

- Return or Frustration
- Double-Edge
- Aqua Tail
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Fire Fang
- Rock Slide
- Stone Edge

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 548-648 (126.8 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Amoonguss: 510-602 (118 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 318-375 (107 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Cresselia: 207-244 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 180-212 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 259-306 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 187-222 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 656-774 (192.3 - 226.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


That is the Return/Earthquake set which is in my opinion still the best set. Considering it's so easy to support Mega-Salamence you could even go as far as adding a +1 Mega-Salamence to each calculation, because you're basically guaranteed to get at least one Dragon Dance off, unless something goes really really wrong.
Special Strength
Yes, even at a 120 base Special Attack you could go on to become a Special attacker. It's not recommendable though and I like the idea of even going mixed Salamence, but it's probably just best to go fully physical. One of the positive sides of Special Salamence is that you don't even need Dragon Dance, and can fill it up for a better move such as Roost, or even more coverage. Here are some relevant moves that Salamence carries as a special attacker:

- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Hydro Pump
- Hyper Voice

I won't go too in-depth with these calculations, but because of the pretty strong coverage that Salamence has it's easy to say that it will kill a lot major threats. Also don't forget that Hyper Voice gets turned into a Flying move due to Aerilate.
Speed
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13iusTLkC-HQqXFlAx0jlZ18oYmN5QdmFXPHn9eveEcU/edit#gid=0

Check it out for yourself. It gets outsped by quite some relevant threats in the metagame such as Terrakion, Raikou, Icy Wind Keldeo and Latios.
Support
It's ridiculously easy to support Salamence.

Now I've come to part where I realized I didn't explain it quite well enough. Mega-Salamence is on it's own...well, maybe not entirely broken. It would still be the normal day's Kangaskhan. Mega-Salamence's base stats are crazy and he has a great ability, as well as an okay typing and it has a great pre-mega-evolution ability in Intimidate. Maybe Mega-Salamence would be healthy in this current metagame...

Unless Jirachi didn't exist..


Salamence would have trouble to set up a Dragon Dance if it wasn't for Jirachi's Follow Me support. However, considering Jirachi lives everything that hits Salamence effectively, it's going to be much easier for Salamence to just get to +1. At +1 Mega-Salamence has basically no trouble for anything in this metagame as you blast through it with Return and Earthquake. Easy wins. Now how exactly does this make the metagame better?

Another problem is that Jirachi is pretty bulky. It is able to survive a lot of hits and it has great durability unless you hit it effectively. Again, ice moves? Redirected by Follow Me. Rock moves? Same. Fairy moves? Same. Dragon moves? Same. Also, Jirachi is Ground weak, let's Earthquake! Yeah but Salamence can fly.

If that isn't enough, Jirachi can support for very annoying paralyzes and flinches as extra bonus. It's really known for that, but I just wanted to make clear that Thunder Wave and Iron Head is one of the most annoying strategies ever.
How does this improve the goddamn metagame?
It doesn't allow for more creativity as you close most doors for building teams, most teamstyles are gone, bulky offense? Why run it if you get 2HKOd by Mence anyway, isn't it just better to run Hyper Offense? Indefinitely.

And everyone saying Hail finally became good, is that the whole point of this suspect test? To get a new good playstyle, which barely even works? Or Trick Room. Basically if you want to beat Salamence on a whole playstyle, these two (and Rain), are the most viable. And the weathers might not even be that viable at all.

Viability Ranks
Aegislash
252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 175-207 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You KO it before they KO you. Nonetheless, nice try checking Mence.

Amoonguss
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 824-972 (190.7 - 225%) -- guaranteed OHKO

boned

Mega-Charizard-Y
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 475-561 (159.9 - 188.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cresselia
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Cresselia: 309-364 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

well you lose if Cress has Icy Wind or Ice Beam and gets Trick Room up, but you still do a whole lot of damage

Mega-Diancie
+1 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 270-318 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

now okay I gotta say, you just get straight up OHKOd by moonblast if you don't have a DD up or don't run the bulky set

Mega-Kangaskhan
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 387-456 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keldeo
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 848-998 (257.7 - 303.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

i know this is the wrong set but you get the idea, you don't get straight up OHKOd if you don't have a dd and keldeo icy winds but it still does a lot

Landorus-Therian
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 116-138 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 282-333 (85.4 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

by then your opponent loses unless he flinches you with rock slide

Rotom-Wash
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
136 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 127-150 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

im pretty sure rotom-w runs less SpA but you get the deal, you'll still kill it first


Now I'm kinda done with this post, I've provided enough calculations, and stuff so

tl;dr Mega-Mence is very easy to support and from that point can set up a Dragon Dance to sweep through teams.





[22:21] Shaian: maaan if i made that and it didnt get hella likes i'd prolly quit
also nido is bae
 
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Bughouse

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Salamencite + Salamence + Jirachi complex ban.
First, no. Complex bans can become necessary, rarely. This isn't such a situation, and even if it were, that combo would never be the reasonable pairing we would remotely consider. This is a test of Salamencite because that is what's broken or not. Bans of combinations of mons is completely antithetical to what a doubles metagame is.

Second, there are plenty of people using Mega Mence without Jirachi. I know at the very least that Mizuhime's and Blood Totem's teams in the sample thread lack Jirachi (Mizu's even lacks any redirection) and I've made one too playing around with Friend Guard Clefairy. The teams are all quite good.
 
Meloetta<3 you mention that a dd set with earthquake is the best. I disagree that it is the best set and it really depends on what you want salamence to do. Mizus sample team aims to get salamence to clean up after its checks have been removed, while I use my salamence in the midgame to open up holes (very big ones) in the opposing team so other pokemon have an easier time.

If you are using the endgame mence, pimping salamence up with sub/roost is your best bet, as it makes life so much easier when getting up a dd, thus making it a more effective wincon.

The second kind of salamence really likes earthquake, as it enables mence to beat up a larger number of opposing pokes (diancie and tran are prime examples) without needing to set up, making it a more effective wallbreaker.

I think thats one of the big issues with mence. You dont know what its trying to do. Is it trying to donk your tran to let sylveon sweep? Or is it waiting for your tran to get slapped up by excadrill so it can sweep? having to ask these questions makes playing around mence that much harder.

Thats my interpretation of mence anyway
 

TGMD

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I'm just here to post my thoughts, it's the same generic "I think mence is broken" post that I've seen multiple times in this thread already, you've all heard it before, so I'm going to keep this relatively short.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about over centralisation or a complex analysis of what the metagame is like and how mence has utterly crushed the doubles metagame under the heel of no creativity, none of that foolish spiel, mence is simply broken, that is all that needs to be brought to light to ensure it remains banned. The most "broken" thing in the metagame up until this point was considered to be Kangaskhan, a mon thats standard set consists of moves that literally can't touch a Ghost type with Will-O-Wisp, a mon with various viable hard counters, a mon with only base 100 speed that can't boost its own speed and can be therefore checked offensively with relative ease as well, and yet it has had 2 suspect tests to itself. Mega Salamence has none of these shortcomings whatsoever. Its disgustingly powerful STAB move has no immunities, and is only resisted by the plethora of super good rock (literally only Diancie and kinda Rhydon), electric (Rotom-W and Thundurus) and steel types (Aegislash, Bisharp, Heatran and Metagross). At +1 it outspeeds the entirety of the metagame and OHKOs most of it too, and in a metagame where teams are running Safety Goggles users and Grass types just to help vs Rage Powder and Spore, it has perfect defensive synergy with Jirachi, a Pokemon with unpreventable redirection that lets Mega Salamence at least 1 free Dragon Dance. Mence is also immune to Earthquake, and resists Heat Wave, 2 of the most common spread moves. It easily lives even strong super effective spread moves like Mega Diancie's Diamond storm, and is only 3HKO'd by Adamant Landorus-Therian's Rock Slide. Your only real chance of beating mence + redirection before mence can set up is to run Blizzard, which I did myself by running offensive Hail. Hail is, unfortunately, pretty bad and isn't exactly something I should have to resort to in order to beat a single Pokemon, especially considering mence also has perfect defensive synergy with Wide Guard Aegislash... And sure, it's not exactly like mence just wins at +1, but with a good enough offensive partner or support mon, it's going to barrel through most of any legitimately viable team.

tl;dr wouldban/10
 
I see a few people suggest that there are ways to beat MSalamence. I would like to say that, at least with my post, I did not want to suggest that he was a win button or anything of the sort - even with a team relatively unprepared for the Jirachi/Mence combo I was able to play smartly enough at times to beat MMence before he became an issue.

However, whenever I saw that particular combo I felt pressured to play absolutely perfectly which often led me to make predictions far more heavily than I think is good for a meta game. Don't get me wrong, predicting (at least in singles) is what I actually like most about mons, and what I think separates players of skill. But having to plan out the entire match from team preview (which is what it felt like at times) can be a bit much, especially because many of those match ups ended up like math problems - one step wrong and the entire equation, or in this case your victory, is wrong.

So I believe that, even though Mence is beatable and able to be prepared for, his presence in the meta is just entirely too unforgiving in A way that makes it less fun to play, and certainly less balanced.
 
Well I dont have as much general knowledge as the posters above, but I'm still here to try and contribute with a post. During my time on the Doubles suspect ladder I can say I ran into a fairly decent amount of salamences, especially since half the teams that didnt had it were low ladder.

My first point about salamence is thats its very versatile. From your physical return/roost(or sub)/ddance/protect , occasionaly EQ for those steel types, and even special hypervoice salamence, its has the movepool to face any opposition. Intimidate is an incredibly essential ability that generally allows it to sub ( even in front of a landoT in the field already) with tremendous speed (120) and attack(145), and ddance is just the cherry on top of the cake with those stats, outspeeding many scarfers (including lando even at adamant) and OHKOing many threats in the meta game

Jiraichi is your main follow me guy, resisting all of mence's weaknesses and taking the hits for it, not to mention the flinchy iron head it can threaten slow fairies and ice types with, namely protectless specs sylveon and abomasnow, making it an ideal partner.

Menceraichi seems to be the most popular for the great defensive synergy follow me offers, directing all ice beams from genesect, cresselia, even status(goggles) spores, twave, will o wisps at some point are redirected from salamence. regarding Tr, the duo doesnt seem to suffer from it greatly, as jiraichi is still there to take the spores ammongus can offer, ice beams/ice punches all day cresselia/conk/scrafty uses, (and even hp ice that's getting frequent in the mencemeta) while salamence can even set a sub. hypervoice fairies are an exeption to this

The things that bypass jiraichi are spread moves, couting heatwave and EQ out tho, so I tried hyper voice with vgc sylveon for the following reason:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 52 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 258-304 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However this was met by a flinchy iron head from jiraichi, with sylveon's partner generally unable to defend it as salamence finishes the kill, or getting KOed itself by salamence if it poses threat to it, or if its passive towards it risk a ddance/sub. gardevoir doesnt help much as its outsped and OHKOed, so hypervoice was a frail tactic to rely on.

DiamondStorm Diance apart, The other spread move salamence is weak to is rock slide, But the only viable users of that move are terrakion and landorus-T. This Didnt turn out to be very viable as jolly terrakion's stab rockslide doesnt even reliably 2HKO:

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 252-299 (75.9 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (thats without intimidate)

and Lando-T 3HKOS wile intimidated:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 156-184 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO .

I was instead met by this : 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 331-391 (102.1 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I actually havent seen a mega diance on the ladder, if not rarely, nor havent had the chance to use one vs a salamencite team, so I cant offer much data regarding this point.

There is also a hidden perk to use Salamence which few have saw that a friend, Majore D Mawile, helped me see, which is mence's stunning performance in rain teams, but i wont go to details since he already did in his previous post, yet am gonna have a reminder of the big lines since they have to be mentioned.
Salamencite could be a real asset to rain teams for the obvious reason of:
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 373-439 (125.5 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not to mention it OHKOs amongus, the ultimate fear or Rain teams.
Rain also protects jiraichi from heatran's heatwaves, or any fire attack

Finally , the issue of hail teams regaining popularity to face mence. Abomasnow and blizzard greninja were mentioned as an attempt to counter mega mence. Abomasnow's ice shard is redirected by follow me, and its blizzard can be avoiced by a protected mence (or 1 in a sub) and iron head from jirachi :
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 218-260 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If your salamence is in a sub, or ice shard was redirected:
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Abomasnow: 492-578 (128.1 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

TR Hail teams can be a way, but its a far too specific solution to counter mencerachi, briniging us to my final point.
Overall, I am with the opinion that The metagame is quite balanced as it is, nothing is overcentralizing, in opposition to the suspect ladder, which was crawling with menceraichi, and occasionaly just salamence, which isnt too easy to handle either, making salamence a potential must in every team, overcentralizing the meta.
I dont suppose any of what i said was really original, but my post being in the 4th page, and the pokemon itself being tested many times do not leave a wide window for originality, which i hope wont affect my right to vote too much.

Obviously I'm with banning it, thank you

here is proof of Reqs, #21 with 2401.9 coil
 

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Having reached ladder reqs I guess I have to make some points in this thread. I'm currently undecided so my post should appear balanced (unless I'm less undecided than I think I am), and I'll attempt to generally analyse why M. Salamence may be ban material and why is may not be.

M. Salamence is a powerful Pokémon in its own right, firstly due to its stats: 95/145/130/120/90/120
You'll firstly notice that M. Salamence has high offensives, at 145 atk and 120 sp. atk, and is no slouch in speed either at 120 base speed. When you couple this with Salamence's intimidate in its base form and the fact that it can run D. Dance, it suddenly has an incredible offensive presence and can theoretically run great special sets as well, though I've not had the misfortune to encounter one. M. Salamence also has the potential for self-recovery, as I have seen a fair amount of M. Salamence's with roost. Usually self-recovery moves such as roost are less than effective in doubles where its twice as easy to K.O a Pokémon (mathematically speaking, double the Pokémon, without getting into specifics), but again, M. Salamence's amazing defensive bulk and not that shabby special bulk makes roost M. Salamence perfectly viable. In other words, once set up M. Salamence can become an offensive beast such that there's no surprise that its banned in singles.

Doubles is a team game, such that setting up is much more risky than in singles. For example, on my team I run a Quiver Dance Volcarona, and half the game for me is looking for the right time to set up (and killing Landorus) - such that I no longer run a Swords Dance M. Gallade for the same reason (that and Knock Off.) So it should be hard for M. Salamence to set up, right? It doesn't seem that way. As many users have posted before me, M. Salamence and Jirachi make an amazing core. Jirachi resists M. Salamence's weaknesses and vice-versa, such as the Heat Wave from my Volcarona melting Jirachi barely fazes M. Salamence, and Jirachi's redirectional abilities render supereffective moves against M. Salamence ineffective, as many of them tend to be single target. In this case, it makes more sense to use multitarget moves. However, Landorus-T is incapable of one-shotting M. Salamence, while a boosted M. Salamence is not, likewise a M. Salamence running Earthquake doesn't fear Terrakion and M. Gardevoir and Sylveon are ever so squishy. In any case, Wide Guard Aegislash exists. So in terms of setting up we already have Jirachi and Aegislash to worry about, as either enable M. Salamence to become an offensive beast.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Getting there is an entirely different game, but it certainly exists. For me, that light has been Rotom-W. M. Salamence is incapable of one shotting Rotom-W with its usual choice of moves, and while Rotom-W's thunderbolt gives M. Salamence no fear, its ability to burn does not. Without redirection, M. Salamence (physical at least) is largely crippled by a burn - though Substitute does alleviate this danger somewhat. I have found M. Salamence to have fear in an Unaware Clefable also, as Unaware Clefable has the potential for redirection - allowing squishy Pokémon to either put Jirachi or M. Salamence out of business - and a Moonblast or Dazzling Gleam from Clefable can pack quite a punch. So even on my squishy team (with two Pokémon weak to flying, no less) there is certainly the possibility of M. Salamence being shut down by a number of my team's members.

The solutions I've listed have problems of their own though. Rotom-W is in fairly widespread use at the moment, but I've found Clefable to be a rarity. My suggestion are offering very specialised checks - bulk, redirection and burn - which seems to imply overcentralisation of teams around the single threat of M. Salamence, which does not a healthy meta make. Likewise, I meantioned earlier that Doubles is a team game, I've often found myself with my M. Salamence proof team staring at the select screen because their team is M. Salamence proof proof. M. Salamence, unlike my poor Volcarona, is the kind of Pokémon that can jump into any scenario and either wreck it with its insane speed, first turn intimidate and powerful offensives, or set up for future glory. This tends to make Doubles even more of a prediction game, which seems good as it improves strategy - but it remains to be seen as to whether the superior predictor or superior guesser will come up on top. There's only so much prediction one can make before we just end up predicting heads or tails.

And so I summarise, I am currently undecided. As a relative newcomer to the doubles game I'm certainly not experienced enough to predict whether M. Salamence would lead to a hyper centralised metagame, though I can certainly theorise the possibility - though I am experienced enough to see a danger in M. Salamence's holy grail of bulk, offense, speed and first turn intimidate - leading to a hyper splashability to be feared.
 
Since I've done my reqs already, I guess it's time to retire [maybe] my suspect team until the day comes it should show up again (will also include voting for Mega Mence ban)

First, I'll show up my only original team, which obviously isn't any playstyle like Rain/Full TR, etc.

THE POWER OF VOCAL SPAM


Freddie Mercury (Salamence) (M) @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 36 Atk / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Frustration
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Protect

Mariah Carey (Sylveon) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 52 HP / 200 Def / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock

Al Capone (Weavile) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Low Kick

Jesse James (Keldeo) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Quick Guard
- Secret Sword
- Protect

Alladin (Jirachi) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 232 HP / 68 Def / 80 SpD / 108 Spe
Careful Nature
- Follow Me
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Thor (Thundurus) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 228 HP / 96 Def / 76 SpA / 88 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt


Now I know what you might be thinking: "Ew. Use physical Mega Mence over that special Mega Mence." Yes, this is the one team that brought me to my reqs with a record of 41-17 (which now became 45-22). You're probably wondering why I came up with a very different Mega Mence set over the usual ones like regular DD or Sub + DD Mence. That's what I am to talk about today.

For me, being part of a suspect test (even if this is my first one) isn't all about getting reqs and voting ban/unban, or just about disseminating information about a particular suspect. It's also about the limitless possibilities that you can come up with the use of your suspect. Many players, as far as I've observed, have been using lots of different strategies, such as Shaian's Dragon Tail Rhyperior, and seeing my friend Silverwhiteblue battle an opponent with Scarf/Specs [?] Rotom-Frost. You see, it's about how creative you can come up with things people will never really expect, and at the end, you'll find yourself in a good spot.

In my team, I chose to have 2 Hyper Voice users to make the most out of the offensive pressure I can offer. Mega Salamence is my first selection for a Hyper Voice user. No one will expect it to be Hyper Voice (because I can bluff every player I face, as long as I wouldn't have to face him/her again). Also, it's got good steel coverage in Fire Blast and OHKO's 252 HP Aegislash (nope, not Heatran). Also base 120 SpA is stronger than Sylveon without Choice Specs. Next, I want a Pokemon that can spam Hyper Voice early game to weaken/take off Salamence's threats. Although Sylveon's HV is quite weaker than Mega Mence by stats, Specs can put it up in the ranks and make it my next HV user. The 2 Pokemon (depending on match-ups) can act as a lead, but it'll be less efficient as a lead if it is stopped by things like Fake Out or weakened by a strong match-up. Weavile brings in slot 3 as a fast Fake Out user (and the only fast thing in my team that can take on Mega Mence 1v1). With Knock Off and Low Kick support, it can beat things such as Jirachi and Heatran respectively. Speaking of Heatran, my team still looks weak to it, as well as Bisharp (especially if Defiant plows through). Another fast Pokemon I've used is Keldeo, which resolves these problems. Also Quick Guard support is nice to avoid Fake Out from Pokemon that is not Weavile. It can also beat up Mega Kangaskhan, which may not be that popular but is important to take off. Next, Jirachi. This is one of the few reasons why Mega Mence is a popular threat, which is also a contributing factor to why it should get banned. Follow Me support is a necessity for the team, so you can spam Hyper Voice or pressure opponents for as much as you need to do so. Final slot was quite confusing to sum up, but Thundurus fulfills this slot effectively by preventing Substitute, Follow Me and to slow down things like Mega Salamence and a lot of fast threats.

Now, I'll be stressing out my points on my opinions on Mega Salamence.

Salamence-Mega must remain BANNED. The following reasons are as follows:

-Imbalanced overall stats. Mega Salamence is one of the biggest, most threatening Pokemon in the Doubles OU metagame. A combination of 145 Atk and 120 SpA/Spe make it an outstandingly strong Pokemon to deal with. 130 Defense makes it not OHKO'd by physical attacks such as Rock Slide, Stone Edge and at an extent, Icicle Crash. It usually takes necessary physical investments to even get a shot of OHKO'ing this Pokemon. Well, yeah it's weak to an Ice Beam an relatively to Icy Wind, but regardless of special bulk, it's still very threatening to deal with this Pokemon in general.

-Follow Me Jirachi. One reason for its incredible success is the use of Follow Me Jirachi, which makes Salamence able to set-up/get free turns and wreck house. If you have observed earlier in the suspect test, user kamikaze17 pointed out how effective the synergy between the 2 Pokemon are. Jirachi's weaknesses of Ground and Fire are perfectly absorbed by Mega Salamence, while Salamence's weakness in Ice, Fairy, Rock and Dragon are perfectly handled by Jirachi, which makes it very viable in this type of metagame.

If I am to cope with this metagame, I'd have Follow Me banned for this reason. The metagame's superiority revolves solely around the use of Mence + Jirachi for this particular situation.

-Great amount of possible coverage. We've seen this time and time again. Also, this is the trickier part of the meta's beast. Salamence has access to a wide amount of coverage moves, which makes it the true beast it is. 145 Atk can give you things like STABs in Dragon Claw, Return/Frustration and Double Edge. Along this gives you coverage like Earthquake for Heatran and Mega Diancie and Aqua Tail for Diancie-M only. On the other hand, 120 SpA, which is weaker by 25 base points, still gives a fair amount of good coverage, which includes my Hyper Voice Mega Mence and Fire Blast, which can OHKO 252 HP Aegislash, like said earlier.

200+ SpA Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 416-490 (128.3 - 151.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


CONCLUSION: Ban this thing. It's because of its overall base stats, Follow Me Jirachi and coverage + hard hitting STAB moves.
 
Last edited:

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
So the arguments kind of boil down to this:

ban: "too easy to sweep" "does too much dmges" "too strong" "centralizes"

no-ban: "I didn't face any teams" "mence wasn't hard to deal with"

imo, mence definitely has weaknesses that are exploitable, it's harder to set up than say kang PuP but more rewarding for that setup

A dumb part of the game that I've seen happen a lot is the part where both jirachi and mence are out, and you have to pick one and the game basically becomes a 50/50

Still, I'm voting a no-ban

*copypaste the 20 essays already written on the topic*



I feel there's still insufficient proof that mence is op as is, and there are definitely checks to mence/rachi, otherwise everyone would just lead the two of them and sweep the game. Mence has to like come in late, and it requires delicate play the enable yourself to set it up, and even more delicate play to be able to sweep.

In comparison to kang, I think that having mence makes your team more fragile in comparison, mence is definitely weaker than kang in terms of bulk, kang also gets fake out and priority sucker punch, and a +2 pup.

Here's why I think mence isn't op:

1) Kang return does more than mence return, and kang return has about equal typing spread (they are both resisted by rock/steel, ghost/electric is the diff in terms of resistance, flying gets coverage on grass (relevant for amoonguss), bug (ok no one cares about this), and fighting (pretty relevant))
2) Kang gets fake out. Pretty huge
3) Kang is WAY less fragile, it doesn't have a 4x weak to one of the more common secondary moves (ice beam, hp ice). Seeing as how everyone and their mother is running icy wind, this is also very relevant
4) Mence commonly only runs 1 or 2 offense moves (eq and return), which limits its options severely. What does it do vs rotomwash? Kang gets return, pup, and sucker punch.


Seriously, mence isn't just "send it in with jirachi, get a free ddance because jirachi obviously has infinite bulk, and in this hypothetical situation, mence can magically sweep the whole team"

Mence teams' win conditions are much more fragile and easier to disrupt.
 

Laga

Forever Grande
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I feel there's still insufficient proof that mence is op as is
I'm terribly sorry to target such a specific part of your post, but as already said earlier in the thread, this idea is invalid to base your opinion off of. The ongoing suspect test is of a pokemon that is already banned, and therefore is broken until proven healthy; in other words, guilty until proven innocent.

As for your comparison to Kangaskhan, Mence has a few merits over the former, and some of your points are not very precise or necessarily correct.

Mence
· hasn't got a weakness to fake out
· has much better speed
· is most certainly not more frail than kanga (it's phys Def is retardedly high, and SpD only slightly poorer)
· your first comparison point just doesn't stand very much at all, the flying type of the STAB attack by far outmerits the tiny bit extra damage of equally invested versions of the two.
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%)
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 208-247 (46.8 - 55.6%)

· 4th point is relevant, but still not comparable to Kangaskhan. Sure mence is walled by rotom types, but on the other hand, Kangaskhan cannot touch ghost types with status moves, and is also setup fodder for any Jirachi partner.

Also in general, comparisons to other top tier mons isn't nearly enough to prove brokenness or non-brokenness, I just wanted to point out that, while you are right with mocking the "send out with rachi and sweep everytime" for being too theoretical, so is this comparison.

I'm going to be completely honest and say that this suspect test has been the most stale I've experienced so far. Everything worth discussing about mence's merits / brokenness / possibilities to deal with it has already been brought up, and I really have nothing left to say. The one thing I hate the very much is to turn a supposed discussion thread into pure repetition, wether it already has been mentioned here or (god forbid) the exact same thing I posted about last time this was tested.

Outside of the PS tourneys being fun and competitive, I believe that this suspect test has been a bit of a waste of time for a lot of people. I wasn't against this suspect to begin with, but every single day i become more convinced of mences status of broken. It doesn't add any fun challenges to battling or teambuilding, but rather gives you a win button if your opponent doesn't heavily prepare, and I don't want to see Doubles OU become such a tier.

While I'm not finished with reqs
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm terribly sorry to target such a specific part of your post, but as already said earlier in the thread, this idea is invalid to base your opinion off of. The ongoing suspect test is of a pokemon that is already banned, and therefore is broken until proven healthy; in other words, guilty until proven innocent.

As for your comparison to Kangaskhan, Mence has a few merits over the former, and some of your points are not very precise or necessarily correct.

Mence
· hasn't got a weakness to fake out
· has much better speed
· is most certainly not more frail than kanga (it's phys Def is retardedly high, and SpD only slightly poorer)
· your first comparison point just doesn't stand very much at all, the flying type of the STAB attack by far outmerits the tiny bit extra damage of equally invested versions of the two.
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%)
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 208-247 (46.8 - 55.6%)

· 4th point is relevant, but still not comparable to Kangaskhan. Sure mence is walled by rotom types, but on the other hand, Kangaskhan cannot touch ghost types with status moves, and is also setup fodder for any Jirachi partner.

Also in general, comparisons to other top tier mons isn't nearly enough to prove brokenness or non-brokenness, I just wanted to point out that, while you are right with mocking the "send out with rachi and sweep everytime" for being too theoretical, so is this comparison.

I'm going to be completely honest and say that this suspect test has been the most stale I've experienced so far. Everything worth discussing about mence's merits / brokenness / possibilities to deal with it has already been brought up, and I really have nothing left to say. The one thing I hate the very much is to turn a supposed discussion thread into pure repetition, wether it already has been mentioned here or (god forbid) the exact same thing I posted about last time this was tested.

Outside of the PS tourneys being fun and competitive, I believe that this suspect test has been a bit of a waste of time for a lot of people. I wasn't against this suspect to begin with, but every single day i become more convinced of mences status of broken. It doesn't add any fun challenges to battling or teambuilding, but rather gives you a win button if your opponent doesn't heavily prepare, and I don't want to see Doubles OU become such a tier.

While I'm not finished with reqs
I say that mence is frail because everything runs ice coverage.

I mention fake out not to say mence is weak to it but to prove that kang having fake out is a huge utility boost in kang's favor

sure, mence has better speed but is also incredibly vulnerable to speed control

Because of its rock/fairy/ice/dragon weakness, as opposed to kang's single fighting weakness, which makes it difficult to let it endure any hits.

Even with jirachi support, mence is still incredibly vulnerable to numerous things such as

icy wind, trick room, tailwind, things that kill jirachi, things that taunt jirachi, rock slide, etc.

It's not just "oh mence has better base defenses therefore bulkier"
 
So I don't play doubles a lot. I've played some VGC and I've played quite a bit of 2v2 doubles, some 200 battles. First of all these are some of the most articulated arguments I've ever seen, so kudos to the general thread. I have a question though, how does salamence even benefit the metagame? You're all arguing "It harms rain" or "It benefits rain". Mega Salamence is a centralising threat that can, alone, set up on the vast majority of the metagame... But wait, this is doubles? Yeah, but you still have follow me commonly used by Jirachi who destroys fairies who try to hyper voice. Idk, it doesn't feel like it benefits the metagame at all, please enlighten me though
 

Empress

33% coffee / 33% alcohol / 34% estrogen
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Replies in bold
I say that mence is frail because everything runs ice coverage. And why is everything running Ice coverage? Because of Mence. Moreover, having a 4x weakness does not instantly make a mon broken, much less making it frail.

I mention fake out not to say mence is weak to it but to prove that kang having fake out is a huge utility boost in kang's favor Mence and Kang do totally different things. Comparing the two is apples to oranges. Mence doesn't need utility and some Mega Kangaskhan don't even run Fake Out.

sure, mence has better speed but is also incredibly vulnerable to speed control Lots of things are vulnerable to Speed control. You can't just be like "well Mence loses to Trick Room, Thunder Wave, Tailwind, and Icy Wind; therefore it's beatable." It's no more vulnerable to Speed control than, say, Mewtwo would be.

Because of its rock/fairy/ice/dragon weakness, as opposed to kang's single fighting weakness, which makes it difficult to let it endure any hits. Did you seriously just say this? Of course a mon with type weaknesses will struggle to take those hits without significant bulk. Mence sure does have significant bulk, though- from Intimidate prior to Mega Evolving to a high base Defense stat, it can take plenty of SE hits. To put this in perspective:

236+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 116-138 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah. This is without factoring in Intimidate and the fact that Mega Mence may be running some Defense investment (a lot of good players will beef up its Defense a bit).

Even with jirachi support, mence is still incredibly vulnerable to numerous things such as

icy wind, trick room, tailwind, things that kill jirachi, things that taunt jirachi, rock slide, etc. It's not just about Mence + Jirachi. In spite of all of those things that supposedly hold Mence back, it can still do its job incredibly well.

It's not just "oh mence has better base defenses therefore bulkier" It sure is. At least on the physical side.
 

Yellow Paint

working as intended
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
B101 Leader
Wow, you guys are so fast I can barely read a post till another one pops up. Today, all of my teams on showdown got deleted, so I restored them from a month old pastebin, and I noticed a huge difference in the teams I had used in the past to the teams I've been using now. My mence meta teams were notably offensive, whether vanilla or field condition, while the older ones were relatively bulky.

I'm no fan of essays, so I won't describe the teams specifically, but I'll say mence has a significant impact on the pace of games. By punishing anything slightly lacking in pressure by setting up on them, Mence drives the pace of games even faster than our base 110 meta. I see no reason to make dubs any quicker. With Mence around, you can have advantage in position and prediction, but still lose everything to a single mistake or manipulation of rng.
 

Shaka Brah

Banned deucer.
After playing a bit again, I'm actually thinking about this. So, consider this: The main problem with MMence is redirection. Heck, it's Jirachi's redirection, because the things that pwn Megamence also pwn Amoon and kiss (strong Ice-attacks, hail+Blizzard).

So, consider this: Salamencite + Salamence + Jirachi complex ban.
seems extremely convoluted to me, and even w/o the rachi complimenting mence there are still tons of combos you can use w/it and it doesnt really remedy the fact that it has absurd bulk + offensive power. a good general rule of thumb for tiering, IMO, is that if you're trying to bandage up a mon by making really complex bans that artificially restrict teambuilding then you might as well just ban the mon instead because other combos that are equally as intimidating are gonna be found as the meta develops with the mon anyway

and even with a rachi complex ban the fact's gonna remain that mence will, IMO, centralize/restrain teambuilding to an unhealthy degree which ultimately leads to unsatisfying and stale metagames
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
no point pulling up quotes when anyone interested in reading can just look at the previous comments

plus formatting is hard


>ice coverage

everyone's running ice coverage because there are a shitload of mons that are 4x weak, and because running ice as a stab move kinda just sucks. People who running hp ice thundurus when mence was banned. People were running ice beam basically on everything that could learn it while mence was banned.

>kang/mence comparison

ok. So maybe they're not the same genus of fruit. What I'm trying to prove here is that kang has solid advantages over mence and that mence has solid advantages over kang. I'm also trying to prove that damage-wise kang and mence are on the same level.

You need some basis of comparison. I chose another mega. You can't just say "it FEELS op therefore it is", you need to prove that it is necessarily stronger than its other possibilities.

>"it doesn't matter that it loses to speed control"

yes it does, it's a significant weakness that you're just ignoring for who-knows-what-reason

>landorus rock slide tickles it

no shit. You took the weakest spread move that I was describing and said "oh this doesn't do damage"
*insert calcs of hyper voice, terrakion rock slide, various icy winds, etc

In addition, you're neglecting more things, such as the various mons that can wall mence quite effectively (thundurus, rotom-wash, heatran, bunch of steel types, etc etc). Add on the fact that this is doubles and mence can't get rid of both threats at the same time.

Also add the fact that jirachi isn't very bulky OR have viable recovery.

And then there's the part where, unless you lead jirachi+mence, you're facing some awkward maneuvering to get jirachi+mence into play, resulting in possible entry damage.

TL;DR there are answers, there's no need to ban something that isn't overpowered. Salamence looks powerful, but come on, it's a mega, it's powerful aspects are heavily outweighed by its obvious weaknesses.
 
no point pulling up quotes when anyone interested in reading can just look at the previous comments

plus formatting is hard


>ice coverage

everyone's running ice coverage because there are a shitload of mons that are 4x weak, and because running ice as a stab move kinda just sucks. People who running hp ice thundurus when mence was banned. People were running ice beam basically on everything that could learn it while mence was banned.

>kang/mence comparison

ok. So maybe they're not the same genus of fruit. What I'm trying to prove here is that kang has solid advantages over mence and that mence has solid advantages over kang. I'm also trying to prove that damage-wise kang and mence are on the same level.

You need some basis of comparison. I chose another mega. You can't just say "it FEELS op therefore it is", you need to prove that it is necessarily stronger than its other possibilities.

>"it doesn't matter that it loses to speed control"

yes it does, it's a significant weakness that you're just ignoring for who-knows-what-reason

>landorus rock slide tickles it

no shit. You took the weakest spread move that I was describing and said "oh this doesn't do damage"
*insert calcs of hyper voice, terrakion rock slide, various icy winds, etc

In addition, you're neglecting more things, such as the various mons that can wall mence quite effectively (thundurus, rotom-wash, heatran, bunch of steel types, etc etc). Add on the fact that this is doubles and mence can't get rid of both threats at the same time.

Also add the fact that jirachi isn't very bulky OR have viable recovery.

And then there's the part where, unless you lead jirachi+mence, you're facing some awkward maneuvering to get jirachi+mence into play, resulting in possible entry damage.

TL;DR there are answers, there's no need to ban something that isn't overpowered. Salamence looks powerful, but come on, it's a mega, it's powerful aspects are heavily outweighed by its obvious weaknesses.
yeah man. Salamence has so many weakness like... um... Its weak to rocks I guess, but this is doubles... um.. I guess its only slightly above average in special defence.. hm..
Mega Salamence has no obvious, glaring weakness that prevents it from functioning. It has no clear counter, both of its abilities are amazing, its fast, its powerful, its bulky, its versatile, it has a great typing and the list jus goes on and on
 

Electrolyte

Wouldn't Wanna Know
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
no point pulling up quotes when anyone interested in reading can just look at the previous comments

plus formatting is hard


1. >ice coverage

everyone's running ice coverage because there are a shitload of mons that are 4x weak, and because running ice as a stab move kinda just sucks. People who running hp ice thundurus when mence was banned. People were running ice beam basically on everything that could learn it while mence was banned.

2. >kang/mence comparison

ok. So maybe they're not the same genus of fruit. What I'm trying to prove here is that kang has solid advantages over mence and that mence has solid advantages over kang. I'm also trying to prove that damage-wise kang and mence are on the same level.

You need some basis of comparison. I chose another mega. You can't just say "it FEELS op therefore it is", you need to prove that it is necessarily stronger than its other possibilities.

3. >"it doesn't matter that it loses to speed control"

yes it does, it's a significant weakness that you're just ignoring for who-knows-what-reason

>landorus rock slide tickles it

no shit. You took the weakest spread move that I was describing and said "oh this doesn't do damage"
4. *insert calcs of hyper voice, terrakion rock slide, various icy winds, etc

5. In addition, you're neglecting more things, such as the various mons that can wall mence quite effectively (thundurus, rotom-wash, heatran, bunch of steel types, etc etc). Add on the fact that this is 6. doubles and mence can't get rid of both threats at the same time.

7. Also add the fact that jirachi isn't very bulky OR have viable recovery.

And then there's the part where, unless you lead jirachi+mence, you're facing some awkward maneuvering to get jirachi+mence into play, resulting in possible entry damage.

TL;DR there are answers, there's no need to ban something that isn't overpowered. Salamence looks powerful, but come on, it's a mega, it's powerful aspects are heavily outweighed by its obvious weaknesses.

Long ass post alert. Paragraphs arranged and numbered in order by response. Feel free to skip the more important / compelling argument topics if you want to


1. Slapping Ice coverage on Pokemon doesn't even counter Mega Salamence. Blizzard spam teams (which really should not even be taken seriously at this point) are easily overpowered after a single boost or literally Wide Guard. Ice Beam is ok but seriously everything that gets it really struggles elsewhere in the meta / can also be overpowered. Icy Wind is even worse, it's never OHKOing and Mence is still hella fast and hella powerful afterwards.


2. I understand your justification of comparing Mence to Kang in a basis of power level but the reason why these comparisons are usually not trustworthy is because they don't take into account the other factors and are most accurate when they, as you said, only take into account raw power. What you don't see in that comparison is the fact that Mega Salamence is so much faster than Mega Kangaskhan, a lot more physically bulky and almost as specially bulky, and therefore a lot more threatening. Also, while it may not have the only 1 predictable yet coverable weakness that Kang has, Mence also has resistances and immunities that enhance its bulk even further. It doesn't even have to worry about weaknesses because at +1 you're just mowing things down anyway. The flat fact is that Kang can't boost its Speed so no matter how much MKang boosts, the musketeers and things still check it every single time, whereas in Mence's case everything either falls short in power or in speed or in bulk. You just can't beat it without losing at least a Pokemon.


3. You can't use "weak to speed control" as a justification to try to prove that something is not broken because practically everything that has an offensive focus is somewhat weak to Speed control... if that weren't the case nobody would try to use it. Also if anything the metagame has become less dependent on Speed control in the past few months so it's even easier for Mence to stand out in this case.


4. In regards to your Hyper Voice / RSlide Terrak / Icy Wind argument:

We got your strong and fast Fairies
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 367-433 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 367-433 (132 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (but like seriously don't use this, ever)

And your incredibly powerful and resilient Rock-types
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 127-151 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (LO after Intimidate)
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 190-226 (57.2 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Regular LO)
252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 146-174 (43.9 - 52.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO (Focus Sash)
... which, by the way, Terrakion will always lose 1 v 1 to Mega Salamence because Return OHKOs after 1 LO recoil

And your very widespread Icy Wind users
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 255-302 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Cresselia Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 104-124 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 76.9% chance to 3HKO
112 SpA Suicune Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 136-160 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gengar Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 196-232 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
... and keep in mind that Return OHKOs Keldeo and Gengar, and 2HKOs offensive Suicune through Sitrus.


5. On your "list of things that Mega Mence can't muscle past":
+1 Adamant Mence 2HKOs Substitute Heatran with Return even after Lefties recovery and if you try to Protect it can set up on you, all while you have fun never dealing more than 25% with Heat Wave
+1 Adamant Mence 2HKOs Rotom-W through Sitrus so you can't switch in, I guess you can try to neuter it with Will-O-Wisp but if you miss you're fucked and if you're too late you're fucked
Thundurus checks literally everything not immune to TWave. Not really a valid argument. And it can't even OHKO with HP Ice.


6. Also, yes this is Doubles but Mega Salamence is too strong even for Doubles standards; the problem is that trying to confront Mega Salamence with anything other than a Pokemon on the list of flat counters (a list of which is not even set in stone and relies on you safely getting in before it boosts too much) means you will lose that Pokemon and you can't even be sure Mega Salamence will be gone after the sacrifice.


7. Jirachi is very bulky and while it doesn't have recovery it doesn't need recovery because you either Follow Me to tank hits that Mence is weak to but Jirachi resists or you don't Follow Me and support with Thunder Wave + Iron Head. Jirachi lasts as long as you need it to last, which isn't very long since Mence literally sweeps at 50%+ HP and +2. They're not very difficult to get in together, either; you can sack a Pokemon to get them in, or you can switch them into immune attacks. Mence even has Intimidate so if you're forced to double switch it's not even that big of a deal. Compare that to switching in something like Mega Diancie or Mega Kangaskhan before they ultimate evolve. Definitely not happening nearly as easily.




Mence is just as powerful as it was last time and if anything the meta has changed in a direction that favors it even more. I don't see any reason why we should unban it.

Might I mention that it's also quite hilarious that probably one of the best things you can do to protect yourself against Mence these days is run your own non-Jirachi Mence with Earthquake and hope to be able to set up before your opponent does :P
 
Last edited:

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
Long ass post alert. Paragraphs arranged and numbered in order by response. Feel free to skip the more important / compelling argument topics if you want to


1. Slapping Ice coverage on Pokemon doesn't even counter Mega Salamence. Blizzard spam teams (which really should not even be taken seriously at this point) are easily overpowered after a single boost or literally Wide Guard. Ice Beam is ok but seriously everything that gets it really struggles elsewhere in the meta / can also be overpowered. Icy Wind is even worse, it's never OHKOing and Mence is still hella fast and hella powerful afterwards.


2. I understand your justification of comparing Mence to Kang in a basis of power level but the reason why these comparisons are usually not trustworthy is because they don't take into account the other factors and are most accurate when they, as you said, only take into account raw power. What you don't see in that comparison is the fact that Mega Salamence is so much faster than Mega Kangaskhan, a lot more physically bulky and almost as specially bulky, and therefore a lot more threatening. Also, while it may not have the only 1 predictable yet coverable weakness that Kang has, Mence also has resistances and immunities that enhance its bulk even further. It doesn't even have to worry about weaknesses because at +1 you're just mowing things down anyway. The flat fact is that Kang can't boost its Speed so no matter how much MKang boosts, the musketeers and things still check it every single time, whereas in Mence's case everything either falls short in power or in speed or in bulk. You just can't beat it without losing at least a Pokemon.


3. You can't use "weak to speed control" as a justification to try to prove that something is not broken because practically everything that has an offensive focus is somewhat weak to Speed control... if that weren't the case nobody would try to use it. Also if anything the metagame has become less dependent on Speed control in the past few months so it's even easier for Mence to stand out in this case.


4. In regards to your Hyper Voice / RSlide Terrak / Icy Wind argument:

We got your strong and fast Fairies
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 367-433 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 367-433 (132 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (but like seriously don't use this, ever)

And your incredibly powerful and resilient Rock-types
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 127-151 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (LO after Intimidate)
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 190-226 (57.2 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Regular LO)
252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 146-174 (43.9 - 52.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO (Focus Sash)
... which, by the way, Terrakion will always lose 1 v 1 to Mega Salamence because Return OHKOs after 1 LO recoil

And your very widespread Icy Wind users
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 255-302 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Cresselia Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 104-124 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 76.9% chance to 3HKO
112 SpA Suicune Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 136-160 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gengar Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 196-232 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
... and keep in mind that Return OHKOs Keldeo and Gengar, and 2HKOs offensive Suicune through Sitrus.


5. On your "list of things that Mega Mence can't muscle past":
+1 Adamant Mence 2HKOs Substitute Heatran with Return even after Lefties recovery and if you try to Protect it can set up on you, all while you have fun never dealing more than 25% with Heat Wave
+1 Adamant Mence 2HKOs Rotom-W through Sitrus so you can't switch in, I guess you can try to neuter it with Will-O-Wisp but if you miss you're fucked and if you're too late you're fucked
Thundurus checks literally everything not immune to TWave. Not really a valid argument. And it can't even OHKO with HP Ice.


6. Also, yes this is Doubles but Mega Salamence is too strong even for Doubles standards; the problem is that trying to confront Mega Salamence with anything other than a Pokemon on the list of flat counters (a list of which is not even set in stone and relies on you safely getting in before it boosts too much) means you will lose that Pokemon and you can't even be sure Mega Salamence will be gone after the sacrifice.


7. Jirachi is very bulky and while it doesn't have recovery it doesn't need recovery because you either Follow Me to tank hits that Mence is weak to but Jirachi resists or you don't Follow Me and support with Thunder Wave + Iron Head. Jirachi lasts as long as you need it to last, which isn't very long since Mence literally sweeps at 50%+ HP and +2. They're not very difficult to get in together, either; you can sack a Pokemon to get them in, or you can switch them into immune attacks. Mence even has Intimidate so if you're forced to double switch it's not even that big of a deal. Compare that to switching in something like Mega Diancie or Mega Kangaskhan before they ultimate evolve. Definitely not happening nearly as easily.




Mence is just as powerful as it was last time and if anything the meta has changed in a direction that favors it even more. I don't see any reason why we should unban it.

Might I mention that it's also quite hilarious that probably one of the best things you can do to protect yourself against Mence these days is run your own non-Jirachi Mence with Earthquake and hope to be able to set up before your opponent does :P

So we've already established that thundurus counters with twave

Your calcs assume already setup +1 mence. And your already setup mence still can't ohko common mons.

With jirachi and mence, it would literally take you 4 turns to kill the 2 mons ahead of you, after you already took turns to set up

Speed control still isn't addressed, the moment someone uses icy wind or paralyzes or tailwinds or trickrooms, your mence is extremely crippled.

Also:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 176 Def Sylveon: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

To me, the counters to mence are clear and in front my my face.
 

Arcticblast

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Just to clarify: no complex bans are on the table. This test is for Salamencite alone. And it's already been shown that Salamence doesn't need Jirachi to work well by multiple users in this thread.
 

Empress

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So we've already established that thundurus counters with twave

Your calcs assume already setup +1 mence. And your already setup mence still can't ohko common mons.

With jirachi and mence, it would literally take you 4 turns to kill the 2 mons ahead of you, after you already took turns to set up

Speed control still isn't addressed, the moment someone uses icy wind or paralyzes or tailwinds or trickrooms, your mence is extremely crippled.

Also:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 176 Def Sylveon: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

To me, the counters to mence are clear and in front my my face.
Sigh...

Thundurus CHECKS Mega Mence. It doesn't counter it. Thundy needs a lot of health as well as luck to even check Mega Mence as well.
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 147-173 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
52+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 147-174 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO

While we can't assume that Mence will always be at +1, it's so ridiculously easy for it to get to +1 in the first place that you cannot ignore +1 calcs.

Back to Speed control. That's good baseline logic, my friend, but once again, you can say that Speed control cripples literally any fast sweeper. Being weak to it is not intrinsic to Mega Mence.

As for Sylveon "countering" Mence:
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 282-333 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

At least get your basic definitions right. Sylveon is a CHECK and a damn shaky one at that, considering how much health it needs to be able to even get the chance to use Hyper Voice.
 
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