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Anything Goes Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Funbot28
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As much as you may think Ditto is unviable and is nothing to be scared of, it's like a magic preventer of your opponent setting up. And if they do, then you just sweep with their sweeper because yours has a scarf. Ditto is not so useful as a Pokemon to play, but instead as a thing in the back that people are to be fearful of.
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The same could be said of anything that prevents you from 6-0ing a team. All you stated was that Ditto is another target to remove before your set-up sweeper can... well, set-up. In OU, you can't just take your D-Dance/Roost/Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw Mega Charizard X and start sweeping straight away. You have to remove threats such as Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Altaria etc. before even thinking of doing it. And that's the same principle with Ditto. You remove it before you can set-up - that is not a special quality.
I think Ditto is used in SwagPlay Teams to sweep with the boost of the opposing mon's Swagger Boost. At least it was that way before Swagger was banned in OU, people were running SwagPlay + Ditto Teams.
tehy
Banned deucer.
man, i am just finding these baaaad arguments late-night
where to begin : those mons are good in part because they must be removed for zard to sweep, because that means they stop it from sweeping. if you didn't have any of them, then the opponent would simply set up and win. since you do, they have to play a more complex game and remove those, which leaves you free to try and remove their stops to your sweeper, set up your own sweeper, or generally wear down their team. in short, can we agree that stopping a sweeper from setting up (and thus sweeping) is a good quality?
ditto possesses this quality.
arguably, it possesses it more than any other Pokemon, which is arguably its niche and what makes it special. i don't know how well that translates into AG and its efficacy at this task is definitely something you can argue about, but don't dismiss this as 'nothing special' lol
Uh, dude.... By S-Tier, I think they only mean Arceus-Normal itself. Most of the Arceus formes are shitty and unviable, with the exception of the more prominent ones like Fairyceus, Darkceus and Ghostceus. By your same logic, you are also implying that normal Groudon is as good as Primal (which it definitely isn't.)
The reason it's nothing special is because in a realistic scenario, that's all it does. Let's take our Charx example - you're no more scared of it than say Slowbro. If you come up against it it's still a target to take out before you can sweep. In fact no; that that back - you're less scared of it than Slowbro because against a competent player, sitting there and dissuading a sweep is literally all it does. I just can't imagine a scenario where a competent player walks right into a scarf ditto trap and gets into a bad position from it.
tehy
Banned deucer.
the only sense in which he mentioned that ditto countersweeps is in the sense of a mechanism of preventing you from sweeping; i.e. that no competent player walks into a scarf ditto trap, because they will be in a bad position from it.
i agree that ditto countersweeping is a bad argument you will see noobs make, but you should look more carefully for its actual presence; he only mentioned it to make it clear that Ditto prevents setup via heavy punishing of it
in a realistic scenario, yes, that is all it does (or not, but more on that in a mo'). But it does it for EVERY Pokemon, whereas slowbro, for example, is unable or hard-pressed to stop SD Weavile, SD bisharp, DD M-gyarados, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Dragon Dance Crunch Mega Tyranitar, Tail Glow Rain Dance Manaphy, Offensive Swords Dance Scizor, Refresh Dragon Dance Mega Altaria, Specially offensive Agility Mega Altaria, Calm Mind Landorus-I, Calm Mind Mega Diancie, Calm Mind Latios, Calm Mind Mega Gardevoir, Nasty Plot Celebi, Serperior, Quiver Dance Volcarona, SD Mega Pinsir, Belly Drum Chesnaught, SD Megachomp in Sand, Swords Dance Crawdaunt, Work Up Mega Pidgeot, Calm Mind Raikou...think that's all of them?
Also, it can be a scarf mega rayquaza, scarf xerneas, scarf primal groudon, all of which would be fairly potent if they could wield scarves (as proof, xerneas can and it's fairly potent).
so in short, you can't say that it doesn't do anything special, unless you can name other things that check more, threats that ditto can't stop, etc, what we would call an actual argument. you might win that argument, i bet Klefki and GeoXern are good examples of the former and latter, but you have to actually make that argument, yeah?
Except the problem is you're taking up a teamslot for something that's unreliable and has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of your team. In addition as it only ever carries scarf and it copies the opponent's moveset, the opponent knows everything it can do and hence it is very easy to play around, and as it copies the opponent it's very unreliable and in many matches may not ever come into play; becoming a redundant team member hence making it's function as a check difficult to justify. I've just never seen a good ditto in practise and outside the lower ladder and you'd need some good replay to show it off; but there's a reason other tiers have dropped it off their VR.
i know you're using this as an example but... please stop talking about standard ou. isn't this an ag thread?
tehy
Banned deucer.
let me illustrate what has happened so far, to all those reading:
Kurona : dumb argument
Me : that's a dumb argument, and you need to actually make an argument for ditto's viability
Kurona : oh yeah???!!! well you're wrong, because ditto is unviable for x y and z reasons! GOT YOU HAHA
Me : if by 'i got you' you mean 'you did exactly what I said' then sure...?
(bold for emphasis)tehy said:
i mean, maybe you aren't doing EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO as an aggressive response to my argument...but if you aren't, why are you being so aggressive? starting your sentence off with except? any post that does that is typically angry / salty, and I've only used it when I am, in fact, pissed as hell.
in short feel free to keep discussing how good ditto is at its niche, but don't try to dismiss its niche with some terrible logic
as for spin da (pig), if Kurona uses OU examples i'll have to OU-refute them, same goes for any tier, but i take your point
p2
Banned deucer.
I wouldn't call Ditto unviable or anything in AG. It's actually better than in other metas because it screws over teams that rely on half of it being Ekillers / GeoXerns or whatever. Plus Stall is pretty much non existent, so it's actually less dead weight in matchups compared to OU or Ubers, whatever. B rank might be pushing it, but it definitely doesn't deserve to go lower than B- because just having Ditto on your team pretty much deters all forms of setting up, which is huge in AG, apart from maybe CM Arceus-Ghost (Ditto doesn't have a Spooky Plate, so its stuck with a normal type Judgment).
Look, if you're going to disagree with me I really don't care at all; but would it be alright if you could actually tell me why I'm wrong instead of assuming I'm incredibly salty off of one word and then making an entire post which is incredibly aggressive for no apparent reason? I'm really tired of seeing this sort of attitude; at least fleggumfl had the maturity to actually refute my post instead of... whatever this is supposed to be. Maybe I'm being horribly wrong about ditto but there was really no need for this.
tehy
Banned deucer.
do you really not get it
as i explained, your previous argument just didn't make any sense. it wasn't about whether or not ditto was any good at its job or good outside of it; all i argued is that his job is important, and that he's probably better at it than any mon
you seemed to take that as an argument for ditto's viability and then fired back accordingly, as I already explained in my previous post. do you not see me urging you to make an argument...? i wrote it at the end of my previous post and then quoted it again...
i assumed you were salty or angry. notice that i didn't say the word incredibly, so now you're exaggerating. why would you be doing that? well perhaps to set up a strawman, or to misrepresent me? more on this in a momentkurona said:
haha there it iskurona said:
yes, fleggumfl made a counter-argument as it relates to viability, which is perfectly fine. i'm not interested in that. what I am interested in is shitty logic, which is why I made my original post, and the subsequent post when you failed to understand this.kurona said:
what I found interesting is that you assumed I was arguing for Ditto's actual viability within the tier. I wasn't; i was simply refuting one point you had made, and expressly told you that I don't give a fuck what else you want to say regarding ditto's viability. you should really just read more carefully
edit: fuck, i remember fully why I posted, so let me just append it here
i pointed out that an argument of yours was shitty-no more, no less. i then encouraged you to make other arguments
what is really baffling is that you think that *other reasons why ditto sucks* is a counter-argument to *your first reason is shitty logic*. it isn't. i told you to make another argument, you did, problem over...but why did you think doing what I told you you should do was in some way counter to my argument?
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It's more than that. I would call it and Mega Gengar the best partners to Swagger Klefki in the game. Between the two of them, there is very little that can stop SwagPlay teams.
Instead of sacking 2-3 Klefkis to kill a Primal Groudon, you can sweep the enemy with a +2 Choice Scarf Primal Groudon of your own.
I didn't really have time to respond to this, I was going to let others dispute it but it didn't do much good so I'll try and make a productive counter-argument. Adding to fleggumfl's excellent argument, some Pokemon are just too bulky to kill without setting up. E.g. Bulky Arceus, Lugia whereas others require setting up to actually function properly, e.g. Serperior (bad example).
I understand your argument, and completely agree with the removal of threats in order to set up, however, I still believe that Ditto is not inclusive of this. Most teams have a win condition of a DD Rayquaza or a GeoXern. Simply removing threats is not as easy as it sounds if they keep their ditto in the back until the end. If you still disagree, try playing ditto users such as Fripouille and EvilCelebi and winning without setting up.
Yes, again your post was long ago, but since no one pointed out anything, I'll do it. (I really have a tendency to do this lol)
1) He means Normalceus which can hold an item. If I'm right, Arceus holds Lum like 90% of the time, and the 10% of Arceus that don't probably belong to low-ladder players. (most other arceus formes are shit please don't lump them together with the good ones)
2) Admittedly, yes, Ray has some really nice resistances, but Arceus still has much better bulk and can setup more consistently, for one.
3) Yes, Ray hits harder than Arceus Normal. Transcendent God Champion already admitted that. Besides, Arceus-Normal hits hard enough in the long run and doesn't need to worry about scarfers and stuff.
4) Lugia beats both of them regardless of how hard it gets hit and can Roost on whatever comes in unless it phazes into something like Darkrai.
That's pretty much it, but I feel that Memento (on Latios) and maybe Dual Screens deserve a mention.
The main reason why Arceus-Normal is deserving its rank is its unpredictability because being able to run multiple ones in a team eliminates its "4-move syndrome" making it possible to fit into your team Sword Dance, Refresh, E-Speed, EQ, Overheat, Shadow Claw, Substitute, Recover for instants with just 2 Arceus already and also it can run a good selection of items like Lefties, Lum Berry or Life Orb.
Also your opponent has to keep track which move which Arceus-N used putting more pressure onto your opponent
While you can do that pretty much with Rayquaza as well, however, you can only evolte one and normal Rayquaza does not really work as well, does it?
Anyways, what are your thoughts on Articuno?
Sheer Cold seems nice, but is the Ground Immunity really that handy that you would use it over Kyogre/PrimalOgre who is faster and bulkier also does not rely on the OHKO-move to actually take down something? I think we don't need to even consider STAB Ice Type moves, since Sheer Cold limits switching anyways and that is already done by Kyogre (who already has better coverage including powerful non-OHKO Ice Type moves.
And the other 'mon I think should considered to go down a rank or maybe even unranked is Reshiram.
Damage output alone seems pointless and it is pretty much outclassed by pretty much any Fire Type and Kyurem-W who are faster, bulkier or hit at least as hart as Reshiram does. And while you can only run one Kyurem-W, why would anyone run more than one Reshiram/Kyurem-W anyways in this meta?
Also your opponent has to keep track which move which Arceus-N used putting more pressure onto your opponent
While you can do that pretty much with Rayquaza as well, however, you can only evolte one and normal Rayquaza does not really work as well, does it?
Anyways, what are your thoughts on Articuno?
Sheer Cold seems nice, but is the Ground Immunity really that handy that you would use it over Kyogre/PrimalOgre who is faster and bulkier also does not rely on the OHKO-move to actually take down something? I think we don't need to even consider STAB Ice Type moves, since Sheer Cold limits switching anyways and that is already done by Kyogre (who already has better coverage including powerful non-OHKO Ice Type moves.
And the other 'mon I think should considered to go down a rank or maybe even unranked is Reshiram.
Damage output alone seems pointless and it is pretty much outclassed by pretty much any Fire Type and Kyurem-W who are faster, bulkier or hit at least as hart as Reshiram does. And while you can only run one Kyurem-W, why would anyone run more than one Reshiram/Kyurem-W anyways in this meta?
I agree with everything said except the Reshiram. I use a team which features a heat rock Groudon, Sticky Web setting Shuckle and Choice Specs Blue Flare Reshiram. The way I have it set up Reshiram can OHKO EKiller. Although it's not the best strategy (see Terrakion for a much better one), it is actually very efficient if you can pull it off. It OHKOs nearly anything not made for bulk in the meta. IMO Reshiram deserves to be at its rank due to the necessity to build a team around to make viable, although still providing a very high SpA stat + STAB. IIRC It hits its fire special attacks at the highest power in the meta (tied with Primal Groudon).
Reshiram should be moved down to D-Rank. It loses to everything in S and A+ Rank thanks to its combination of an SR weakness, terrible defensive-typing and poor speed. Its typing in particular is extremely awful because it doesn't have the benefits of either its Fire or Dragon typing (no Fairy and water resistance for example) while also inheriting the weaknesses of both (Ground Weakness, Dragon Weakness, SR weakness, etc.). Its an ineffective Scarf user due to it's STAB moves having a multitude of switch-ins in the current metagame and normal offensive sets suffer from having virtually no switch-in opportunities, a predictable moveset, and a SR weakness. Only reason this mon shouldn't move down to d-rank is that it doesn't have the insane amount of opportunity cost that the current D-Rank mons do, but that's it.
Reshiram doesn't face competition just from kyu-w. It also has to compete with palkia who had a better typing as no rock weakness or a ground weakness and palkia has a better speed tier in 100 which is rather nice in ubers outpacing the crowded 90-99. Another thing it has to compete with is lati@s which again have better defensive synergy a better speed tier and not sr weak. So yeah drop it to D rank.
what some guys said about reshiram sucking
Hippo is a possible D imo. Absolutely no reason to use it over P-don, except maybe lack of Ground weakness. And even Lando-T is mostly better than that.
Reshiram doesn't face competition just from kyu-w. It also has to compete with palkia who had a better typing as no rock weakness or a ground weakness and palkia has a better speed tier in 100 which is rather nice in ubers outpacing the crowded 90-99. Another thing it has to compete with is lati@s which again have better defensive synergy a better speed tier and not sr weak. So yeah drop it to D rank.
what some guys said about reshiram sucking
Hippo is a possible D imo. Absolutely no reason to use it over P-don, except maybe lack of Ground weakness. And even Lando-T is mostly better than that.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
I regret posting that post, I understood that I was wrong, and I already updated the rankings accordingly
TBH, Reshiram is two or three times worse here than it is in ubers (where it is inviable). If that alone isn't enough reason to unrank it, it is outclassed by any viable Fire-type or special Dragon-type in the metagame due to either a: not creating mindgames on team preview like Arceus-Fire, not having useful STAB for its coverage unlike Kyurem-W (who also gets Fire-type coverage anyway as well as STAB Ice-type attacks) and just generally being outclassed in a roll by another Pokemon. Reshiram is never worth using on any serious team in AG, so it shouldn't be ranked.
Agree and stuff, but Arceus-Fire is actually at D rank now in the Uber Viability rankings for being almost completely outclassed by P-don. Granted, it is marginally better due to the absence of Species Clause, but it still is outclassed in almost every other aspect.
Agreed. I was literally just listing its main niche over other Fire-types XD It is better here than in ubers tho :]
I played about 300 games of AG this weekend, and I have some recommendations. Others feel free to dispute.
A- to B- or less
Roar.
A- to B-
With the amount of Xerneas and Diancie-Mega in the meta atm, why would anyone run an Arceus-Dark. Great for mewtwo, which is becoming less and less common. Even though these Mewtwo often carry fighting-type moves. I actually believe it would be more viable to run an Arceus-Bug than this.
B+ to C-
Most common situation: Set up rocks and then die.
Next most common: Taunt and then die.
I probably need to continue to make a decent argument. Why in Arceus's name would you waste a pokemon on just setting up rocks. Groudon can do such a thing. In fact, Pineco with Berry Juice would be a better option.
B to Unranked (or D)
Why would anyone use this? "Let's set up a sandstorm!", well I'm sorry to tell you kiddo but two of the top three pokemon in the meta don't care. When like much more than half the teams in the meta carry a rayquaza of some sort, it'd be stupid to run a weather team (most of the time). Then let's introduce one of the most common moves in the meta to this argument, EQ. Can someone actually provide a decent argument to back this up other than removing the majority of the enemy team in order to keep this alive for longer than a turn.
B to A-?
This might be a bit controversial, but I feel like we've established how helpful Ditto is in the last few days. It is the pinnacle of many high ladder AG teams. If you want arguments, look up the page.
C to B+/B
Arceus-Steel is a great support mon on many top teams. Its typing allows it to come in on a Xerneas (on a hard-switch) and decimate it's life with an Iron Head. On top of that, its typing allows it to come in on Rayquaza to absorb a hit, if say the Rayquaza was statused or LO set.
C to B/B-
When I mentioned this pokemon a few weeks ago, I had intended for the pokemon to gain a rank and wasn't completely focused on a rank for it. The more I use it however, the more I begin to see how well it can perform. Everything about it is great. Its ability, its attack stat, its movepool, e.t.c. I have a few replays to further my argument.
C to (something just move it up a tad maybe)
thelinearcurve, the current first place of the Anything Goes ladder has showcased how good this thing can be. It absorbs Xerneas's two most common moves (Moonblast and Focus Blast) and deals out decent attacks. This one I'm not completely sure about as its primary objective is just to counter one pokemon in the meta.
C- to D
Why would anyone use an Arceus-Psychic. "Beats Fighting and Poison you scrub!" Tell me what Poison and Fighting pokemon you encounter often. "MMX" And that's hit neutrally! "There are two Terrakion users in the meta" Ok, I'm going to stop there, hopefully you see my point. Having conversations with yourself is fun! Arceus-Psychic is not fun..
C- to Unranked
Do I need an argument, I'm pretty sure others have provided enough. I will for the sake of being fair to this volcano camel thingy. The only time this would be viable is when they have a full team of Klefki, and even then they'll often put HP water on one of them. If you want to keep Numel ranked (+appropriately ranked), make a new rank called G (because it's not even worthy of E and F). I've played 1400 games of AG, and only ever seen one Numel. That should tell you something.
I might make another post later, as it's getting late and I'm getting bored.
Roar.
With the amount of Xerneas and Diancie-Mega in the meta atm, why would anyone run an Arceus-Dark. Great for mewtwo, which is becoming less and less common. Even though these Mewtwo often carry fighting-type moves. I actually believe it would be more viable to run an Arceus-Bug than this.
Most common situation: Set up rocks and then die.
Next most common: Taunt and then die.
I probably need to continue to make a decent argument. Why in Arceus's name would you waste a pokemon on just setting up rocks. Groudon can do such a thing. In fact, Pineco with Berry Juice would be a better option.
Why would anyone use this? "Let's set up a sandstorm!", well I'm sorry to tell you kiddo but two of the top three pokemon in the meta don't care. When like much more than half the teams in the meta carry a rayquaza of some sort, it'd be stupid to run a weather team (most of the time). Then let's introduce one of the most common moves in the meta to this argument, EQ. Can someone actually provide a decent argument to back this up other than removing the majority of the enemy team in order to keep this alive for longer than a turn.
This might be a bit controversial, but I feel like we've established how helpful Ditto is in the last few days. It is the pinnacle of many high ladder AG teams. If you want arguments, look up the page.
Arceus-Steel is a great support mon on many top teams. Its typing allows it to come in on a Xerneas (on a hard-switch) and decimate it's life with an Iron Head. On top of that, its typing allows it to come in on Rayquaza to absorb a hit, if say the Rayquaza was statused or LO set.
When I mentioned this pokemon a few weeks ago, I had intended for the pokemon to gain a rank and wasn't completely focused on a rank for it. The more I use it however, the more I begin to see how well it can perform. Everything about it is great. Its ability, its attack stat, its movepool, e.t.c. I have a few replays to further my argument.
- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-237655301 - Early Stone Edge Sweep
- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-239478982 - Sharp Rocks
- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-239725064 - Pass Me The Ironing Board
- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-240392399 - Useful Double Kick
- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-240472284 - Stone Edge High Crit-Ratio Hands Me The Game
- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-240474334 - Another High Crit-Ratio Hands The Game
thelinearcurve, the current first place of the Anything Goes ladder has showcased how good this thing can be. It absorbs Xerneas's two most common moves (Moonblast and Focus Blast) and deals out decent attacks. This one I'm not completely sure about as its primary objective is just to counter one pokemon in the meta.
Why would anyone use an Arceus-Psychic. "Beats Fighting and Poison you scrub!" Tell me what Poison and Fighting pokemon you encounter often. "MMX" And that's hit neutrally! "There are two Terrakion users in the meta" Ok, I'm going to stop there, hopefully you see my point. Having conversations with yourself is fun! Arceus-Psychic is not fun..
Do I need an argument, I'm pretty sure others have provided enough. I will for the sake of being fair to this volcano camel thingy. The only time this would be viable is when they have a full team of Klefki, and even then they'll often put HP water on one of them. If you want to keep Numel ranked (+appropriately ranked), make a new rank called G (because it's not even worthy of E and F). I've played 1400 games of AG, and only ever seen one Numel. That should tell you something.
I might make another post later, as it's getting late and I'm getting bored.
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