Sliggoo [QC 0/3]

[MZ]

QC:
GP:

[OVERVIEW]

• Main niche over Zweilous is its high special defense without investment, allowing it to counter similar Pokemon while having some offensive presence, and lack of weakness to Fighting helping it to take on Poliwrath and Raichu
• Counters special grasses and electrics and can check the fires and waters (ice beam and boosting fires are annoying)
• Solid special attack with great coverage and good spdef combined with great resistances makes it a decent tank
• Good status absorber with rest/talk and is immune to sleep
• Hates knock off and has poor physical defense overall
• Faces lots of competition from Zweilous
• Worn down quickly by hazards
• Struggles to break past bulkier pokemon such as regice and lickilicky without a boosting move

[SET]
name: Rest Talk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Muddy Water
item: Eviolite
ability: Sap Sipper
nature: Modest
evs: EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Rest and Sleep Talk keep it healthy throughout the game to more consistently check special attackers
• Dragon pulse is main STAB
• Muddy Water is best neutral coverage move and does more damage to fires like Ninetales as well as hitting probopass

Set Details
========

• Eviolite and Max HP make bulky
  
• Max special attack gives it some offensive presence
• Four speed to beat zero speed base 60 mons like tangela
• Sap Sipper makes it immune to grass to better counter things like Tangela and is more useful than other abilities

Usage Tips
========

• Rest often to keep at high enough health to switch into special attackers
• Keep Sliggoo away from strong physical attacks, especially knock off, as it's not going to be taking most strong physical hits
• Use Dragon Pulse most of the time unless your opponent has a steel or fairy type
• Switch Sliggoo into special attackers without a stab super effective move, as it can easily wall the majority that lack a boosting move like nasty plot
• Sliggoo can be pivoted on by most electric attackers thanks to volt switch and forced out, so be careful about switching Sliggoo in over and over as it gets worn down quickly
  
• Many grass type pokemon carry knock off (simisage, leafeon, victreebel off sun) so be careful about switching it into them as losing its eviolite leaves sliggoo crippled for the rest of the game

Team Options
========

• Sliggoo absolutely needs physical walls like Carracosta to take the strong attacks being directed at it
• Probopass, Roselia and Arbok can check most physical attackers as well as take on fairy types that threaten Sliggoo, although they have to be careful about psychic/fighting coverage from Mr. Mime
  
• Piloswine and Grumpig can take Ice type attacks for Sliggoo thanks to thick fat. Sliggoo can also take the grass and water type attacks aimed at piloswine
• Togetic and Vullaby can support sliggoo with defog as well as helping take physical hits. Togetic is also a good Mr. Mime counter
• Kadabra and Scarf Raichu can help stop Pokemon that use Sliggoo as setup fodder, such as Regice and Barbaracle
• Pokemon weak to Grass, Electric and Water all appreciate Sliggoo's ability to take super effective hits for them. These can include anything from Pelipper to Poliwrath

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

• 4 Attacks has good coverage and hits decently hard, but can also be worn down very fast and lacks the wallbreaking capacity of other all out attackers such as Simipour
• A Cro set with curse/rest/sleep talk/outrage can be used but will typically be KO'd before it has the chance to set up as Sliggoo is still not too bulky and rarely gets setup opportunities in the first place
• Many moves can be run over Muddy Water such as Ice Beam, Thunderbolt or Sludge Wave, however Muddy Water has the best neutral coverage which allows Sliggoo to be less passive versus a wide variety of teams
  
• Physical tank and rest/talk sets can be run to take advantage of sap sipper, but aren't as effective thanks to sliggoo's lower physical attack and poor coverage

Checks and Counters
===================

**Fairy Types**: Togetic and Clefairy take little from Muddy Water and can proceed to defog, set up rocks, nasty pass, or just fire off stab moon blasts. Mr. Mime takes more damage, but can also threaten Sliggoo out with a STAB SE moonblast
**Ice Types**: Ice types threaten Sliggoo with their super effective STAB moves. However, most aren't bulky enough to appreciate switching into a dragon pulse + stealth rock and special attacking ice types such as Regice fail to OHKO Sliggoo
**Strong Physical attackers**: Nearly every physical attacker can 1-2HKO sliggoo with ease, and many wall breakers such as stoutland are bulky enough to switch into dragon pulse and threaten it out
**Knock off**: Knock off users hit sliggoo's lower defense and remove its eviolite, making it far harder for sliggoo to tank hits for the rest of the game

 

[MZ]

This is ready, probably a lot that has to be said because this thing is :S

 

[scorpdestroyer]

what does this have over Zweilous? Emphasize in overview please

 

[MZ]

ok fixed

 

[Anty]

Overview:
The second line needs to be clearer, ie give examples as the only (relevant) special grass types it really checks are tangela and roselia (bell 3HKOs it), and the latter uses it as spikes fodder, and of the relevant special electric types you beat zebby, scarfchu and stunfisk i guess, but you lose to rotom-f and npchu, so this needs to be reflected more in the overview
I think the overview should also talk about how it struggles to beat what it wants to due to 4MSS (eg you need restalk to switch into shit, want muddy water for tales, want ice beam for pluff, etc)
You mention competition from zwei twice

set:
Remove the 4 speed evs as that counter as speed creeping which analysis's dont allow (just put it in sdef)
Also the set should probably have 16 EVs in sdef to avoid the 2HKO from lo simipour + rocks

UT: Give examples of pokes to switch sliggoo in on

TO: 'Probopass, Roselia and Arbok can check most physical attackers' - None are really physical attacker checks. Though when talking about these as fairy checks make sure to mention roselia's toxic spikes as that is really nice in helping sliggoo not being set up fodder
Also mention what type of team sliggoo fits in

c&c: Give examples for the last to sections, and for knock off be sure to mention pokes that can bait it in like mixed simisage

Im not going to stamp yet because im still not convinced that this is the most effective set (mainly the EV spread) though otherwise the analysis looks good
e: ngl im tempted to reject this on a basis that it is bad

 

[WhiteDMist]

If Victreebel 3HKOs, why not just move 116 EVs from Special Attack to Special Defense? You are then only 3HKOed after Rock damage, meaning after a Rest you can avoid the 3HKO entirely. Meanwhile, Dragon Pulse still 2HKOes Victreebel, Ninetales, Jumpluff (after Rocks 92% of the time), Tangela (only 67% after Rocks, but you force it out). Does the max SpA get it any notable KOes?

 

[Anty]

If Victreebel 3HKOs, why not just move 116 EVs from Special Attack to Special Defense? You are then only 3HKOed after Rock damage, meaning after a Rest you can avoid the 3HKO entirely. Meanwhile, Dragon Pulse still 2HKOes Victreebel, Ninetales, Jumpluff (after Rocks 92% of the time), Tangela (only 67% after Rocks, but you force it out). Does the max SpA get it any notable KOes?

actually you still get 3HKOd if stealth rocks are up which isnt hard to get up vs bulkier teams which sliggoo is on and sun is amazing at putting pressure to prevent spinning
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 95-113 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
This is still an unreliable switch in as if it gets poisoned you are forced to rest (even if it doesnt the fear of 3HKO makes you want to rest in case they do stay in)

Either way it doesnt hit that hard so a lot of bulk probably is better and a big question is whether this is actually viable enough for an analysis, as it has a pretty mediocre niche and isnt FE. Also i dont think we should be giving one to every nfe with the slightest of niche (the fact that i think that its bad-ness is comparably to servines really says something :p)

 

[WhiteDMist]

You are then only 3HKOed after Rock damage

That's what I just said. -_- You do avoid the 3HKO if you Rest, though being forced to Rest isn't a good thing. It doesn't really take into account the Poison chance, but you would Rest on that as well. Regardless, I don't see Sliggoo being that effective, since you rely entirely on hitting the opposing Pokemon with its mediocre power and RestTalking (unlike Zweilous which phazes opposing Pokemon out and has decent power). I won't reject or approve this without testing it out myself, but I also won't oppose the rest of the QC team doing either.

 

[MZ]

I don't oppose the rejection as I only took it since nobody else has used it. What you're getting over Zweilous is a better victreebel and Raichu check, a special Poliwrath counter (THIS IS BIG) and you hit as hard as it (exactly as hard o.0) with max modest, which is why I went with it, to give it a better niche over Zweilous. I think I did a shitty job of explaining the niche in the OP, I'd go off this for a potential rejection.

Edit: also fares better vs simipour without knock although I'm considering changing muddy water to thunderbolt because it makes beating wafer absorb poli far more unreliable

 

[Anty]

Yeah i really cant think of a situation where this properly benefits a team over zweilous/dragonair as beating poliwrath isnt enough considering it isnt that hard to check and you still get 3HKOd by life orb sets

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 127-151 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sliggoo doesnt have the bulk to be effectively beat the best special attackers in the tier and also the lack of leftovers is annoying making it really weak to passive damage and when testing a bit i found myself constantly using rest. Sets with more bulk really miss the power so can be set up on even when not sleeping.

rejected 1/3

 

[TONE]

I'm also gonna agree here. It needs the bulk to check special attackers, but it doesn't hit that hard without investment, and special offensive tank sets fail to break through dedicated special walls or bulky pokemon in general and makes it easier to wear out, plus having to compete with zweilous doesn't bode well for Sliggoo.

QC rejected 2/3.

 

[Kingler]

I mean Sliggoo isn't the best pkmn ever but TONE114 i think you're kinda missing why Sliggoo was up for an analyses in the first place. it's not meant to break through bulkier walls or w/e, just tank hits and be able to retaliate. Still though I feel like this mon isn't really analysis-worthy since it's a do-nothing mon with niches that are better done by other pkmn (spdef clefairy off the top of my head does a LOT of this stuff).

i'll hold off on the reject but unless Megazard Z has any explanation as to why it shouldn't be rejected, I'll reject this tomorrow.

 

[MZ]

I've pretty much said everything. It has a niche but it's not too large (teams that want the Spdef dragon but don't want it murdered by Poliwrath). My best defense is that Frillish is getting one but I heard that was getting rejected so it's up to you guys to decide whether that's enough of a niche.

 

[Kingler]

reject 3/3

 

[MZ]

Tagging WhiteDMist to move/lock/whatever happens to rejected analyses

 

[WhiteDMist]

alright, locking. Thanks for the effort though Megazard Z