Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

Anty

let's drop
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The VR is looking really solid rn however it is sorta dead so im gonna suggest some more 'controversial' changes.

Ninetales and Rapidash to change places (rap to a+ tales to a): It is clear that the former S rank is not what it used to be, as this metagame has been harsher to tales. Firstly, the metagame is becoming more prepared for it, as even looking at the viability rankings, pokemon like grumpig and rapidash have had huge increases lately. These are just two examples of the one of the best counter and offensive check in the tier to it, and though it can run dark pulse for grumpig, it is mediocre coverage outside of it, and hidden power ground doesnt stop rapidash from revenge killing it. Another thing about this metagame is that it shows how important speed and priority is, as out of S and A+ ranks the only pokes that dont have priority/outspeed tales are roselia, barbaracle, and rotom, in which the first poke is known for its support, the second for its boosting and the first for being a scarfer. This 'need for speed' is really not kind on ninetales, as it finds it now pretty much relies on sub or a berry (both unreliable) to avoid getting revenge killed vs offensive playstyles, and the defensive playstyles which ninetales destroys have undoubtably gotten worse (also limits the other 'stalltales' set which has become p much irrelevant). There is still much more to talk about, mainly hazards + using other fire types though i dont want this to be too wordy.

I have been finding rapdiash to be better in this metagame. Although they do perform different roles, they still do compete for a team slot due to typing (rocks weakness is huge in this metagame) and being fast + strong, and the only situation i can think of which their roles to mean they wont be competing for a team slot is if you need tales as a balance breaker (which is rare) or if you need something faster for other tales/simis (which is more common). I dont want to just compare the two as i know that the comparison still isnt perfect and they both have solid niches (np + sdef vs spe + recovery). The main reasons why i think rapidash should move up are to do with its speed, letting it revenge kill many pokes like simis/ninetales/leafeon/etc, its power and coverage, this increases its revenge killing potential and mean that there are no complete counters (well, solrock), and the main reason why i love rapidash is because it can be used throughout the entire battle due to a great immunity, some decent resists and access to mourning sun. Annoyingly, rapidash does have an opportunity cost to it, being fodder for costa/baracle, however it can afford to run wisp over drill run, as you hit fires hard with wild charge anyway and willo cripples every rock type which can mostly tank drill runs.

Another suggestion i think should happen is rotom-f down to a (honestly i can see it going down further). Although the loss of haunter may seem nice for it, as it has less competition as a choice scarf user, however sadly there have been other scarfers to take its place (simipour/raichu) and its speed just isnt enough in this metagame. In such a sweeper potent metagame, scarfers are crucial for revenge killing a lot of them, so outspeeding the unboosted metagame isnt enough. Looking at the speed tiers, the only relevant sweepers rotom actually outspeeds are fraxure, adamant torterra, and regice, and unfortunately it cannot revenge kill what i would say is the scariest out of all of them (regice). This really limits the effectiveness of rotom as a scarfer, as a metagame filled with barbaracle and sun, i would much rather use scarfers like dodrio and raichu who are more effective at revenge killing. Obviously scarf rotom has a solid niche with its power and being great for volturn cores (though weakness in rocks is annoying), however this niche isnt a+ worthy. The subsplit set is also decent, however has several flaws, mainly the offensive metagame being harsher towards it due to an influx in faster pokemon and more fire types, and most people would want an electric type like zebstrika which can revenge kill and pivot out.

These next to noms i feel need a lot of discussion.
Barbaracle andor Costa down to A: Yes this may seem weird considering how they were s rank not long ago, however i really feel the metagame has not been nice to them (note that i will only talk amount the ss sets as that is the only possible sets that are a+/could get them a+). Looking at the viability ranking there is a clear lack of set up oppurtunities, as in s and a+, the only pokes they can really set up on are (excluding themselves ofc) pawniard (costa hates losing LO and baracle is weakened to less than 30%), and choice scarf rotom/simipour locked into the wrong move, which is fairly situational. Going down the rankings, there still isnt much; in A they set up on non-willo rap (if ur team has no +2 ss stops you run willo), scarf hp ice raichu (?), and possibly forcing out probopass, then in a-; choiced stout/float, +0 mightyena (costa only and rare), non twave togetic, or forcing like togetic out. Yeah this really isnt reliable, especcially when you can compare them two pokes like rain dance poli and regice who have much more set up opportunities (a lot of lower rank pokes they set up on put them in range if priorities). There have also been an increase of usage of their checks i feel. Torterra and kadabra are everywhere atm, and costa still has problems with common pokes like simipour, jumpluff, and poliwrath, whereas barbaracle struggles with scarf sawsbuck, simipour, and raichu which are the post popular (from what i have seen). However they are still difficult for certain teams so shouldnt be underestimated (a rank is still high). Those two pokes are surprisingly easy to group together ngl. e: memento support is pretty nice but that is a lot of support and kinda doesnt suggest a+ imo

Remember these are only suggestions to promote talk so please rebuttle my points (i know i have been talking more about the pokes flaws/positives but i think i have covered everything in a reasonable amount of space).

e: forgot about moving peli up to a- due it being one of the few good defogers and the sdef set is amazing - i might make a larger post about it later
 

Raiza

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I approve the first three nominations about switching Rapidash and Ninetales ranks, and Rotom-Frost to A, though I think we can keep it in A without further dropping it, as other Choice Scarf users such as Raichu and Simipour first of all are less bulky, which is still important as a scarfer as sometimes you can miss KOs especially when you dont have that much of sheer power, and provide less damage output(also i dont think neither of these two are able to revengekill Regice reliably). Also Ice- and Electric-type coverage is nice and allows Rotom-Frost to not get bodied by Roselia, unlike Raichu and Simipour, though Blizzard isn't that reliable so it has to run Hidden Power Ice which I doubt can 2HKO def roselia?? Its speed may not be that great, and thats why other scarfers are better in most occasions and can be splashed more easily on offensive teams, but Rotom-Frost also has access to more defensive sets and has a decent movepool, naming access to moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, and Trick too apart from the subsplit set, so I feel further dropping it is a bit too much.

Talking about the last two nominations regarding Barbaracle and Carracosta down to A, I feel like Barbaracle could easily stay in A+, while I'm fine with Carracosta dropping. The main reason for this is because of how fast paced the metagame is at the moment, as you already said, that makes Carracosta struggle much more than Barbaracle, which is faster and after setting up a Shell Smash(actually Barbaracle is able to set up most of the times by just forcing out switches, that also depends by the fact it is faster by Carracosta so it can threaten base 67s and less base speed such as fraxure, pawniard, torterra, poliwrath, golem, machoke, and I can go on), can tear through teams with more ease also bc of tough claws and access to aerial ace, while Carracosta can still be revengekilled by the likes of jumpluff, zebstrika, simipour and most scarfers, aqua jet can help but most of the times it isn't enough to score a KO. I just feel like atm the meta is much more harsh to Carracosta than Barbaracle, though I don't really mind if they both drop, this post wasn't made to argue it, but to state that Barbaracle is better than Costa imo.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
I agree with Rotom-F down to A, as it's simply not at the level as the other A+ ranks such as Ninetales, Jumpluff, Piloswine, Simipour, etc.

About Carracosta, I feel that its Shell Smash set is only deserving of A, because it can't immediately threaten things like Barbaracle, and is outsped by Scarfers. However, it is also capable of running a unique defensive set that has great utility in stealth rock and scald, while Barbaracle doesn't have any other good sets (taunt + rocks is extremely mediocre, and Scarf is just weak). This versatility should be enough to stay in A+, because it is hard to tell if the opponent is running defensive or offensive costa, and predicting wrong can lose your team a whole lot of momentum.

Also, Glaceon to E

PU is an ice-type meta and we have so many great ice-types here. The only reason you would want to use Glaceon is as a wallbreaker. But why use that as a wallbreaker over Aurorus, who hits just as hard and has FAR superior coverage in Freeze Dry + earth power? If you want to be able to switch into grass types easier, just use Regice.
Every ice-type SpA pokemon in the tier is far easier to use and threatens a far wider variety of pokemon due to their better coverage. Rotom-F is much faster, has volt switch, and trick to break walls. Vanilluxe has freeze dry and flash cannon. Lapras has huge bulk, and doesn't mind fire types much due to its typing neutrality and water STAB. Regice is a good sweeper with rock polish and has ridiculous special bulk. Articuno actually has reliable recovery and a powerful STAB hurricane that threatens ice resists.

Okay, Glaceon is not a horrible pokemon, but that is no excuse to use it. A mon doesn't have to be horrible to be in E. Look at Bellossom, who is a simple specially defensive grass-type (nothing wrong with that). But it faces huge competition with Roselia and Gogoat and Meganium.

Whiscash stay in D

This mon is actually decently threatening against teams that lack a Gourgeist or Tangela, which is becoming increasingly common in this meta. +1 Life Orb Earthquake actually hits hard, and it has stone edge to bop Jumpluff and Pelipper . Also, it sets up against quite a few common pokemon, such as Raichu without grass knot (afaik grass knot was not mentioned on Raichu's analysis), Rapidash, and Probopass).
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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I'm with the first three like Raiza, and also think rotom shouldn't go lower for its non scarf sets, which are actually pretty great rn even if Clefairy totally walls it. However, if anything doesn't drop from A+ it's costa IMO, as defensive and smash give it enough variation to be worthy of being that high. Costa, unlike barb, can reliably get around bulky grasses with ice beam, even if it does sacrifice zen headbutt. Although the lack of setup is annoying, I've actually been playing a bit more with sturdy WP, which has legitimate use now. It's reliant in hazard removal/getting in on something like probo to set up, but actually can smash unlike barb. Meanwhile defensive is one of the only things bulky enough for CB Stoutland and Dodrio on more balanced teams and a good rock setter with that. It's a solid option because its rock typing is that useful. I wouldn't be too upset if it moved down, A is still high, I just feel like it's better than A (and I didn't see any mention of defensive costa in the original post?). Also I guess I'll make another post later for why Rose is still a little too mediocre for S.
 
Avalugg from C+ to B - Here's why: Avalugg has immense bulk due it's high base defense & high base HP, even with it's extremely low special defense it can still take special hits rather well. 252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 224-266 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. That's pretty good if you ask me, considering it can just recover off the damage later on. Also, it may be weak to rocks, but it has recover so, no worries really. Avalugg can also be a good answer to physical sweepers like Mightyena since, it has such high phys. defense. It's can also hit back really hard too, it has a 12.5% chance to knock out Probopass after rocks with earthquake & can easily knock out Roselia with avalanche. Avalugg can also be used with toxic stall or be used with roar.

Noctowl from D to C+ - If you're using wakafLUKEaflame's Noctowl set then, you'll find out that it's a nice poke to use. It has nice bulk on the special side & can hit relatively well, also it has nice recovery. I've even seen some people run defog on it & to me it looked like a special defensive Pelipper.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-gimmicks-they-will-be-deleted.3522046/page-7
Go there for more info on Luke's set.

Machoke from B+ to A- - Machoke can destroy balanced as well as stall if you're running the guts variant. It can take hits really due to eviolite bulk & recover with rest. Also, if you think you can set up on it while it sleeps, you're wrong; due to guts, when it uses sleep-talk it'll hit harder IF it gets the attacking move. I also like Machoke's slow close combat since, it doesn't have to worry about being hit after the bulk drop. It even has priority with bullet punch. Slow close combat then priority bullet punch, not a bad combo in my opinion. Few pokes can switch in on Machoke's attacks, due to it not worrying about speed & being able to run an adamant nature, it hits relatively hard.
 
Solrock to B-

A lot of people knew this post was happening sooner or later but i lately have fell in love with solrock and here is why i think it should go to B-

SR Wall
Solrock has many useful things going for it as a SR its neutral against fighting types and immune to EQ something no other viable SR user has other then Torterra who resists ground. it also has access to Will-o-Wisp making it tank even more hits and has its own form of recovery in morning sun. Solrock is also one of the fastest SR users in the current pu meta being base 70 speed. Able to take on threats such as Stoutland,Ursarang,Rapidash,Dodrio and countering Piloswine. Max investment in defense 200 in Hp and 56 in speed (The speed investment allows it to outspeed base 45 adamant SR leads like golem and Marowak)

Although this doesn't mean Solrock doesn't have any downfalls its weak to Grass,Water,Bug,Steel,Dark with 2/3 of those types being very prominent in the meta. Morning Sun although is recovery has a very limited 8 PP which can run out in long games. Solrock is also very easily scared out by the likes of Poliwrath,Bascullin,Pawniard and Probopass you can run Eq over Will-o to hit probo and pawn if you dont have anyone on your team for them but Will-O-Wisp is generally the Superior option although EQ still remains viable

I may post about its offensive set depending on the outcome of this
 
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Raiza

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Gabite from C to B-

I was using this thing a lot of time before it got hyped by our lord and innovator Anty and it actually worked fine, so I'll post this request for a rise from C to B-. Gabite is much better than a lot of things that are sitting in C and even C+ at the moment. Gabite mainly works as a Stealth Rock setter, and has some niches over other Ground-types, mainly Piloswine, that allow it to be a valid alternative. Eviolite makes up for its bulk and make max attack investment affordable, while a fat set, which I used and works fine, is still an option. It can overcome other Rock-type leads, and bulky grounds/physical walls also struggle against it because of its access to Toxic. Toxic also has a nice synergy with Rough Skin, which is another niche, and comes in handy to wear down physical attackers with ease. Dragon-type is rare and unique, and actually makes Gabite get decent matchup against common attackers and a good coverage with Dragon Claw, which in tandem with Earthquake can hit most of the tier. I wonder if a Choice Band set can be ran but I don't really know, it could be decent. However, I'm pretty sure Gabite provides enough utility to a team and has enough niches over other sr setters to be considered at least B-.
 
Wartortle to D

Wartortle although not an absolutely useless pokemon is by far the WORST HAZARD REMOVER the only thing it has over other hazard spinners is Foresight to hit ghost switch ins but not only does everything else do something better (knock off Maldo,Toxic stall avalugg,SS Torkoal) the only reason to use it over the others scald and even then you could just use pelipper or swanna which not only carry scald but recovery and defog.

Having so much against it and being stopped by the likes of Rose,Wrath,Machoke,Swan/Peli and more. Its terrified of getting the only (lets face it) keeping it C which is eviolite and that shouldn't be enough to keep it there.

and before anyone goes "but its not weak to rocks and is able to hit the other spinners" lots of actually viable and threatening pokemon can do that and actually KO said spinners permanently.
 
Wartortle to D

Wartortle although not an absolutely useless pokemon is by far the WORST HAZARD REMOVER the only thing it has over other hazard spinners is Foresight to hit ghost switch ins but not only does everything else do something better (knock off Maldo,Toxic stall avalugg,SS Torkoal) the only reason to use it over the others scald and even then you could just use pelipper or swanna which not only carry scald but recovery and defog.

Having so much against it and being stopped by the likes of Rose,Wrath,Machoke,Swan/Peli and more. Its terrified of getting the only (lets face it) keeping it C which is eviolite and that shouldn't be enough to keep it there.

and before anyone goes "but its not weak to rocks and is able to hit the other spinners" lots of actually viable and threatening pokemon can do that and actually KO said spinners permanently.
Some of the spinners/defoggers that are weak to hazards can just recover off the damage anyways; they have so much bulk too so, it wouldn't even matter if they get hit while recovering.
 
Don't know if this has been mentioned or not but I'm nominating Koffing for D rank.



Koffing @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic Spikes
- Clear Smog

Koffing has a very small niche over Roselia or even Trubbish with his ability Levitate which allows him to actually set up on and completely wall mons like Torterra, Piloswine, Golem and still get up Toxic Spikes. With an Eviolite Koffing has decent bulk (283 HP & 475 Def) which allows it to also switch in on common physical attackers like Pawniard and scare it out with Wisp. Obviously Koffing has very little, if any, offensive presence so Clear Smog is a nice option to help you avoid being complete set up bait.

While it's not very good it deserves a rank because of the small niche it does have.
 
While this list may not be seen as necessary, I ran calcs for the above EVs with several strong physical threats in the tier. Only one calc I ran even OHKOs Eviolite Koffing from the physical side, Choice Banded Adamant Rampardos is a guaranteed OHKO with Head Smash. I also think Sp. Def investment is worth a look too, since Koffing has decent bulk on both sides with it, but also lacks recovery aside from Pain Split.

Also a hilarious gem I came across is uninvested, Clear Smog from Koffing is a guaranteed 3HKO against Jolly Leafeon who can't even 4HKO, obviously less when burned. #Koffing2015

252+ Atk Choice Band Torterra Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 79-94 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 130-154 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 107-126 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 53-63 (18.7 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 100-118 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 44-52 (15.5 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 84-100 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- 21.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 113-134 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 117-138 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 133-157 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 72-85 (25.4 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Koffing: 84-99 (29.6 - 34.9%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO
 
With an Eviolite Koffing has decent bulk (283 HP & 475 Def) which allows it to also switch in on common physical attackers like Pawniard and scare it out with Wisp.
I agree with Koffing being ranked, but a minor nitpick, I wouldn't switch Koffing in on a Pawniard in fear of Knock Off, crippling it for the rest of the match.
 
I firmly believe that Bibarel should be in the same tier as onix due to similar roles
Bibarel D -> C
Now this is a change that I have been thinking about for the past few days with sun being the arguably the best playstyle in PU at the moment. Bibarel can setup Stealth Rock, Rain Dance and it has a pretty fast taunt (1 base point faster than onix) which is what gives it a niche over Relicanth. People have told me that Bibarel isnt good as a rain lead because of his lack of sturdy but there are very few leads that can take Bibarel out in one turn (calcs below), so he can afford to run Damp Rock over Focus Sash. Bibarel has the ability unaware which lets it take out Golem with Scald. With Bibarel being able to setup rain, 7 (viable) Pokemon are now able to abuse swift swim (Armaldo,Beartic,Poliwrath,Floatzel,Golduck,Relicanth,Carracosta(Debatable)) whereas in sun, only 4-5 viable pokemon are able to abuse the sun (Jumpluff,Tangela,Leafeon,Sawsbuck,Victreebel). Bibarel preforms the same job as Onix in the fact it can set up weather rocks and taunt, but rain has more viable users than sun AND sand, which means rain has the most versatility out of any weather team, and Bibarel is a great suicide rain lead. His other ability is simple so I guess you can make a curse 3 attack set work out, but there are better options if you want a setup normal sweeper (Ursaring), and to a lesser extent, Raticate outpreform it in the setup department, which is the main reason i dont see it being any further than C maybe C+, it only has 1 viable set and that set is a suicide lead.
+Fast Taunt Rocks lead
+Beats out most other leads
+Unaware
+Rain support gives many pokemon a boost
+Weather is looking VERY powerful at the moment
-Little use outside of a lead
-Loses to faster taunts and Leavanny,Offensive Rose,Torterra
-Suicide lead so it will rarely ever see use outside of the first 2-3 turns
-Rocks are not as reliable as other suicide leads due to damp rock
-Grass type pokemon being used as a lead can be devastating (TORTERRA)

252+ SpA Probopass Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Bibarel: 176-208 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bibarel: 226-267 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bibarel: 234-276 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Hippopotas Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bibarel: 124-147 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bibarel: 201-237 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Bibarel: 246-290 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Bibarel: 308-366 (85.3 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bibarel: 576-678 (159.5 - 187.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Leavanny Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Bibarel: 428-506 (118.5 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Baebarel is basically the onix of rain. It's actually suprisingly fast and strangely bulky, and it does really well against Sun's standard leads, which is a major plus because the initial weather war is super important.
Simple curse is crap tho. Still C-rank material imho.
 

Twix

jicama
is a Contributor Alumnus
I firmly believe that Bibarel should be in the same tier as onix due to similar roles
Bibarel D -> C
Now this is a change that I have been thinking about for the past few days with sun being the arguably the best playstyle in PU at the moment. Bibarel can setup Stealth Rock, Rain Dance and it has a pretty fast taunt (1 base point faster than onix) which is what gives it a niche over Relicanth. People have told me that Bibarel isnt good as a rain lead because of his lack of sturdy but there are very few leads that can take Bibarel out in one turn (calcs below), so he can afford to run Damp Rock over Focus Sash. Bibarel has the ability unaware which lets it take out Golem with Scald. With Bibarel being able to setup rain, 7 (viable) Pokemon are now able to abuse swift swim (Armaldo,Beartic,Poliwrath,Floatzel,Golduck,Relicanth,Carracosta(Debatable)) whereas in sun, only 4-5 viable pokemon are able to abuse the sun (Jumpluff,Tangela,Leafeon,Sawsbuck,Victreebel). Bibarel preforms the same job as Onix in the fact it can set up weather rocks and taunt, but rain has more viable users than sun AND sand, which means rain has the most versatility out of any weather team, and Bibarel is a great suicide rain lead. His other ability is simple so I guess you can make a curse 3 attack set work out, but there are better options if you want a setup normal sweeper (Ursaring), and to a lesser extent, Raticate outpreform it in the setup department, which is the main reason i dont see it being any further than C maybe C+, it only has 1 viable set and that set is a suicide lead.
Although Bibarel and Onix do preform the same roles, Onix should be in a higher viability tier due to Sturdy. Sturdy almost guarantees the Set up of Sunny Day as well as Stealth Rock on slower opponents. The downside to Bibarel is it is lacking Sturdy and can be taken out, given the right matchup. The Calcs you provided are just against lead Pokemon, which isn't always the case if an opponent leads with something like Zebstrika or Raichu. While I see the point of Bibarel making a leap to C-, It just doesn't match up with Onix in the right way to be in the same Viability tier. The one extra point in speed doesn't really help if you aren't faced with something like Mightyena, which you probably wont.
 
I really don't see the point of using a lead weather setter that doesn't have Sturdy at all. Sure, Bibarel can take hits from a decent amount of Pokemon, but you also have to consider the fact that basically every decent PU team has something that can easily outspeed and OHKO 252 HP Bibarel. (Zebstrika, Rotom, Raichu, Sawsbuck, Leafeon, other random things like Chatot and CB Dodrio, which seems like a small list but Zebstrika is everywhere and the other mons on here are also pretty common) Combined with the fact that it's very obvious that you're going to be leading with Bibarel from team preview (why else would they have a Bibarel?), this makes it incrediby difficult for Bibarel to do much of anything. Lead weather setters with SR aren't very good unless they can actually get one of the two up every match and at least have a chance of getting the other up. Bibarel can't do this, so I don't see any reason to use it when Relicanth can (Yes fast Taunt users and Jumpluff exist but they're predictable and they beat Bibarel too). Also, unlike Relicanth and Onix, Bibarel lacks Explosion or any way of doing significant damage to anything, so it's really easy just to stall out most of its rain turns. In fact, I kind of want to drop Bibarel (along with maybe more stuff) to E because every set you can come up with for it ends up being usable in theory but really awful in practice.

Also update coming tomorrow, not that you should be surprised by that or anything
 
Although Bibarel and Onix do preform the same roles, Onix should be in a higher viability tier due to Sturdy. Sturdy almost guarantees the Set up of Sunny Day as well as Stealth Rock on slower opponents. The downside to Bibarel is it is lacking Sturdy and can be taken out, given the right matchup. The Calcs you provided are just against lead Pokemon, which isn't always the case if an opponent leads with something like Zebstrika or Raichu. While I see the point of Bibarel making a leap to C-, It just doesn't match up with Onix in the right way to be in the same Viability tier. The one extra point in speed doesn't really help if you aren't faced with something like Mightyena, which you probably wont.
I really don't see the point of using a lead weather setter that doesn't have Sturdy at all. Sure, Bibarel can take hits from a decent amount of Pokemon, but you also have to consider the fact that basically every decent PU team has something that can easily outspeed and OHKO 252 HP Bibarel. (Zebstrika, Rotom, Raichu, Sawsbuck, Leafeon, other random things like Chatot and CB Dodrio, which seems like a small list but Zebstrika is everywhere and the other mons on here are also pretty common) Combined with the fact that it's very obvious that you're going to be leading with Bibarel from team preview (why else would they have a Bibarel?), this makes it incrediby difficult for Bibarel to do much of anything. Lead weather setters with SR aren't very good unless they can actually get one of the two up every match and at least have a chance of getting the other up. Bibarel can't do this, so I don't see any reason to use it when Relicanth can (Yes fast Taunt users and Jumpluff exist but they're predictable and they beat Bibarel too). Also, unlike Relicanth and Onix, Bibarel lacks Explosion or any way of doing significant damage to anything, so it's really easy just to stall out most of its rain turns. In fact, I kind of want to drop Bibarel (along with maybe more stuff) to E because every set you can come up with for it ends up being usable in theory but really awful in practice.

Also update coming tomorrow, not that you should be surprised by that or anything
To be honest, after talking about weather leads with Dundies a bit, I've learned you that you don't necessarily have to set up weather right away nor do you have to use the same weather setter if you know it's going to get countered. For instance, would you just send in Onix if its only going to get countered by Bibarel? Lose out on momentum so quickly? No. You would send in Leafeon to take care of things. Same would go for rain.
 
To be honest, after talking about weather leads with Dundies a bit, I've learned you that you don't necessarily have to set up weather right away nor do you have to use the same weather setter if you know it's going to get countered. For instance, would you just send in Onix if its only going to get countered by Bibarel? Lose out on momentum so quickly? No. You would send in Leafeon to take care of things. Same would go for rain.
This still doesn't give me a reason to use Bibarel over Relicanth, especially since its supposed main selling point of outspeeding Onix doesn't really even matter, as you just said. While you obviously don't have to lead with your weather setter, you still nearly always want weather to be up as soon as possible, and Relicanth can do that in nearly every game while Bibarel rarely can at all, so I still see no reason to use a weather setter that is inferior in several important ways.
 
Arbok B+ -> A-


My man arbok is an absolute monster in this tier first and foremost. With the capability of running several different sets very effectively, arbok poses a unique threat to many pokemon in this metagame. After much thought, I've concluded that the shed skin set provides the most diversity for yourself and difficulty for your opponent. The coil set involving gunky, sucker punch, and eq is my favorite, but you can easily switch eq for seed bomb for threats like golem and costa. The rest/talk set with shed skin is a little less reliable, but it offers some decent recovery. My main point is that arbok can free switch into roselia, which in my opinion is the biggest threat in the tier. Anytime roselia comes in, arbok can come in and outright OHKO it if it stays in (if it's not defensive), or set up a coil on what your opponent switches to. If they go into piloswine or golem (two of the problem mons for arbok) you have a chance to poison with gunky or deal chip damage w/ hazards + seed bomb or eq. Priority sucker punch to aid in its lack of speed, a diverse movepool, and a great set up move makes this thing a threat. Pair it up with a flying type or a ground resist and you're good to go.
 
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MZ

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Seconding the move of arbok, although I'd like to point out that intimidate is a much better reason for moving it up, letting it check a lot of physical stuff nicely even without investment. Anyway, seconding for the same reasons of it being really fucking good at breaking fatter cores with coil, can still set up vs offense and doesn't even need to set up because it still hits pretty hard without it. Priority is really good right now so sucker comes in handy and it can actually beat like every physical mon 1v1. Also helps a lot with clefairy which is really annoying rn.

Seviper from C+ to C. Any thoughts? I want to bring this up for discussion because I've never found a realistic scenario where I wanted to use this thing's LO set over any of the other good breakers, particularly Victreebel which has similar poison STAB+sucker punch but better speed and defense. Scarf is this thing's best bet at a niche, but seriously it's 65 and still loses to every boosted mon and other scarfer outside of Aurorus, which has a much better time scarfing (already really strong, deals with weather well, not really a traditional scarfer meant for revenge killing per se).
 
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Seconding the move of arbok, although I'd like to point out that intimidate is a much better reason for moving it up, letting it check a lot of physical stuff nicely even without investment. Anyway, seconding for the same reasons of it being really fucking good at breaking fatter cores with coil, can still set up vs offense and doesn't even need to set up because it still hits pretty hard without it. Priority is really good right now so sucker comes in handy and it can actually beat like every physical mon 1v1. Also helps a lot with clefairy which is really annoying rn.

Seviper from C+ to C. Any thoughts? I want to bring this up for discussion because I've never found a realistic scenario where I wanted to use this thing's LO set over any of the other good breakers, particularly Victreebel which has similar poison STAB+sucker punch but better speed and defense. Scarf is this thing's best bet at a niche, but seriously it's 65 and still loses to every boosted mon and other scarfer outside of Aurorus, which has a much better time scarfing (already really strong, deals with weather well, not really a traditional scarfer meant for revenge killing per se).
Never used Seviper, but I see so many threats that can handle it in this tier. Like, if you switch in Pawniard on a knock off, you get an sd off and your opponent lost momentum. Licki can sponge it. Roselia can sponge it. I just see too things that would love to abuse that thing being locked into a move. So sure thing. I'd second that ^
 
Seconding the move of arbok, although I'd like to point out that intimidate is a much better reason for moving it up, letting it check a lot of physical stuff nicely even without investment. Anyway, seconding for the same reasons of it being really fucking good at breaking fatter cores with coil, can still set up vs offense and doesn't even need to set up because it still hits pretty hard without it. Priority is really good right now so sucker comes in handy and it can actually beat like every physical mon 1v1. Also helps a lot with clefairy which is really annoying rn.

Seviper from C+ to C. Any thoughts? I want to bring this up for discussion because I've never found a realistic scenario where I wanted to use this thing's LO set over any of the other good breakers, particularly Victreebel which has similar poison STAB+sucker punch but better speed and defense. Scarf is this thing's best bet at a niche, but seriously it's 65 and still loses to every boosted mon and other scarfer outside of Aurorus, which has a much better time scarfing (already really strong, deals with weather well, not really a traditional scarfer meant for revenge killing per se).
I can agree with Seviper to C.
I mean, it's this kind of pokemon that looks kind of interesting on paper but that you'll never fit into any of your teams because of the rough competition he has to face. It's not an awful pokemon by any means, i mean it's movepool is quite diverse & it has infiltrator which is pretty nice against some kind of teams but that's about it, i'd just rather use any faster pokemon that does the same, like Victreebel.
 

Raiza

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Aagainst arbok to a-. for how much I love playing it I don't think it is A- material yet. In metagame full of offensive powerhouses, Arbok finds an harsher opposition, as it perfoms good mostly against slow paced teams, which nowadays are rather rare, because of its own mediocre speed that doesn't allow it to setup against offensive teams. Even if it succeeds in setting up a Coil, it's speed still remains subpar, Sucker Punch isn't guaranteed to hit and make it struggle against Will-O-Wisp users such as Misdreavus, even if it hits it isn't strong enough to be effective against common special attackers, which are the main answer to Arbok, while defensive sets are even easier to stop and predictable. We have really good Pokemons in A-, look Victreebel, Regice, and Mightyena. I could see Arbok rise to A- only in the case the meta shifts a bit toward defensive teams, but not for now.
 
Shuffled A rank order around a lot, also shifted a ton of stuff in C / C- / D downwards.

Ninetales from A+ to A
Rotom-F from A+ to A
Golem from A to A-
Rapidash from A to A+
Sawsbuck from A- to A
Pelipper from B+ to A-
Torkoal from B- to C+
Seviper from C+ to C
Butterfree from C to C-
Gabite from C to B-
Huntail from C to C-
Illumise from C to C-
Lampent from C to C-
Lapras from C to C-
Octillery from C to D
Swoobat from C to C-
Chimecho from C- to D
Dragonair from C- to D
Electrode from C- to D
Krokorok from C- to D
Lairon from C- to D
Masquerain from C- to D
Sliggoo from C- to D
Tentacool from C- to D
Tropius from C- to D
Wartortle from C- to D
Ariados from D to E
Bastiodon from D to E
Bibarel from D to E
Fearow from D to E
Gigalith from D to E
Gourgeist from D to E
Gourgeist-Large from D to E
Lumineon from D to E
Meganium from D to E
Meowstic-F from D to E
Seaking from D to E
Wormadam-S from D to E

Not posting explanations this time because there are like 325325342 changes, but as usual if you want to know why any change did or didn't happen feel free to vm me.
 

MZ

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I like most of these but you lost me with the krok drop. Now that we've moved the ranks down it doesn't need to go to C, but it's far more worthy of C- than D. Its eviolite rocks set does have a clear niche over gabite with access to taunt and pursuit, acting as a much stronger balance annoyed and psychic check. It's got just barely usable bulk and a solid speed tier with max jolly. I'd use this over gabite as it's far better at keeping hazards up and checking psychics while pursuit is a good option that I really undersold in the analysis before testing it. Don't drop this below sliggoo and electrode pls

Edit: wrote c+ instead of c- so hopefully the nomination looks more reasonable now. Probably gonna post about rose again later
 
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ManOfMany

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Relicanth should be higher than Onix, given that both are decent stealth rock setters for their respective weathers, but Relicanth can also fulfill other roles too.

Relicanth acts as a very solid Choice Bander. CB Relicanth only has one counter in this tier, physically defensive Tangela, as all other pokemon that can take Head Smash can be removed by either Waterfall or Zen Headbutt. One thing Relicanth has over other wallbreakers is extremely good physical bulk, allowing it to check a variety of physical attackers, such as Dodrio, Armaldo, etc.

Some random calcs that show how hard Relicanth is to revenge with a physical attacker:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 117-138 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Swift swim set is also a very good asset for rain teams as a stealth rock setter. With the bulk to survive almost any non-grass type physical attack, it can easily get up rain, and then outspeed everything and get up rocks before dying. It can also be saved late-game for an emergency sweeper. It can get you in a lot of trouble not knowing if the opponent has a swift swim or sturdy Relicanth, and I know from experience playing good players like Al Akir and Crimzig who have used it.

Lastly, a physically defensive set is also a viable option. Yes, it IS outclassed by Carracosta in a lot of ways, but it does have one very large advantage: offensive pressure. While Carracosta tanks super-effective hits slightly better, and has access to scald, Relicanth is much harder to switch into because Head Smash, which does >80% do most offense mons. Meanwhile, offensive teams can take advantage of Carracosta by switching in the likes of Zebstrika, Victreebel, and Specs Floatzel without much trouble. Defensive Relicanth also has access to the clever and underrated move Yawn which pairs well with head smash: a Relicanth counter that switches in on yawn has to choose to either stay in and get slept or switch out and risk having a mon get bopped by Head Smash.

In case you are doubting its sheer bulk:
252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 158-186 (39.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

All in all, Relicanth is a much more versatile pokemon than onix, who can only fulfill one role, so I believe it should be above it at C+ or B-.
 

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