CrashinBoomBang
außerirdisch, anunnaki
so, I've been using Togekiss pretty much ever since the Greninja ban (it's in my avatar too!), and I honestly disagree with the way the first set is laid out, by a lot.
First of all, I believe that a spread of 248 HP/ 76 Def / 8 SpD / 176 Spe with a Timid nature is optimal on the Stallbreaker set. I think that it thrives the most on Bulky Offensive teams that allow it to use its natural bulk and amazing typing to take hits "other" Pokemon on those teams can't really take on. I believe Leftovers should be by far the primary slash for that reason as well. For example, with this spread and Leftovers, Togekiss always survives 2 Life Orb Latios Psyshocks as as well as 2 Jolly Mega Lopunny Returns without Stealth Rock. That is absolutely huge for offensive teams that really don't have many other options to take the two of them one; especially since you probably aren't running Clefable if you are running Togekiss. Now, some people might say "but as soon as Stealth Rock is up it can't counter them anymore". Well, that is only half true. Lopunny Fake Out/HJK and Latios Draco/EQ/HP Fire are still free switchins, and that's not really the point anyway; the point is that you wall them early game (since you match up exceedingly well against a lot of common Stealth Rock users, especially those that actually see use on teams with Lopunny/Latios), which allows you to build up some offensive pressure and hopefully prevent Lopunny and Latios from coming in safely ever again. I think that Lum Berry is a waste anyway; if I don't want to get crippled by status I'll just run Heal Bell on this set which is something gr8astard has been doing to some decent success from what I've heard, and in matchups against full stall I'd much rather rely on my ability to switch into Will-O-Wisp from Slowbro/Sableye/Charizard X/Quagsire. Hell, even getting Thunder Waved isn't the end of the world with Leftovers (since you should have either your own Thunder Wave or Heal Bell 90% of the time), unless they happen to have both Chansey and Unaware Clefable/Quagsire in conjunction with Thunder Wave, which doesn't really exist. Leftovers, in return, gives you so much more: It allows you to take on the threats I mentioned a little bit earlier (among others), it allows you to not get fucked over by Sand, and not get fucked over by burns as much. It also makes dealing with Mega Slowbro and CM Clefable a lot easier, 2 Pokemon that you take on pretty well. That said, I think the name "Stallbreaker" is whack for this anyway seeing how it predominantly wrecks Balance-ish squads instead of Stall-ish squads, but Leftovers + getting statused in some way that isn't Toxic is still a way better "Stallbreaker" than the set with Lum Berry, especially since that set makes actually beating balance squads a lot more annoying. The Special Attack EVs also seem unnecessary as the only scenario off the top of my head where it really makes a difference is Unaware Clefable; Bisharp takes like 46% minimum from uninvested Togekiss anyway meaning that, with Stealth Rock or 1 turn of Life Orb recoil, it's a goner with 1 flinch regardless of SAtk investment.
As for the slashes in the 3rd slot, I wholeheartedly think that Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Fire Blast makes for the best slashes in terms of usefulness. Aura Sphere sounds nice on paper, but the only thing that it really matters against is Heatran; Thunder Wave either lets you beat Tyranitar (Scarf aka the only set that really matters in this metagame), or cripple it for a teammate to take advantage of which, with an offensive team, isn't hard to do since you have lots of stuff that appreciates Tyranitar paralysed (think Gengar, Latios, LO Starmie, Thundurus-I, Landorus-I and even stuff like Raikou to some extent). Dazzling Gleam just seems so completely... useless. You do damage to Diancie or Thundurus but, on teams that those Pokemon are commonly seen on, especially with a team that features Togekiss (which is most likely a Bulky Offensive team of some kind), are you really going to get off the 2 hits against MDiancie/Thundurus to actually kill them? What about Mega Manectric? Raikou? The only thing that you will realistically get that hit off against (Rotom-W) loses to you 1 on 1 anyway and if it Volt Switches out to something that forces you out like Landorus or Gengar then Dazzling Gleam doesn't exactly solve that issue.. And before someone says that Dazzling Gleam beats unevolved Mega Diancie, that still loses to Protect variants and Thunder Wave on the switch already beats them because you are never OHKO'd by Diamond Storm and can fish for miss/full para with Roost and eventually kill it via Air Slash. Tyranitar, like I said, is pretty much always Scarfed in this metagame making Dazzling Gleam just as much of an inferior choice against it as against Diancie. Meanwhile, people really seem to underestimate Heal Bell's value on an offensive team; not only does it allow Togekiss to deal with status itself, but getting a "second life" for your burned Altaria/Gyarados, paralysed Charizard X, paralysed or burned Mega Metagross etc. is huge. Like, fucking enormous lol. There's no reason to only put it on the Defensive NP set when the teams that the Stallbreaker is often found on arguably make better use of it than Defensive NP's teammates ever would (although it's better for standalone sweeps on that one I suppose). Fire Blast gets instant damage against Ferrothorn (which is nice because you need a lot of flinches against Ferrothorn and it can actually hurt you), roasts Mega Scizor, kills unevolved Mega Metagross after a boost and allows you to beat one of the few defensive Pokemon that actually have a good shot to beat TWave Togekiss in Body Slam Jirachi. With Bronzong making a semi-comeback thanks to Landorus-I, Fire Blast becomes an even stronger option. You also snipe Excadrill on the switch for ~75%, which is enormous for offensive teams as well. Not to mention that you still get almost the same damage against Electric types that the obscure Dazzling Gleam was supposed to give you. Oh and it also happens to hit Magnezone. I think it's better than Aura Sphere because it has a lot more valid targets than Aura Sphere while also being a lot more practical than Dazzling Gleam in the sense that you can actually hit those Pokemon before they kill you; the Mega Metagross kill in particular is actually huge because it's such a difficult Pokemon to switch into, far more difficult than Choice Scarf Tyranitar, and it also kills you in one hit whereas Tyranitar only has a ~40% chance to win against Thunder Wave variants factoring in Sand, critical hits and misses (and only a 10%ish chance to escape without paralysis), whereas Metagross has an almost assured win and hurts way more Pokemon than Tyranitar to boot. It's not a fantastic option either way and I believe that Thunder Wave/Heal Bell are still way better, but it's usable on some teams.
Relevant Calcs:
Probably a lot more but I can't think of much else right now.
tl;dr 248 HP / 76 Def / 8 SpD / 176 Spe Timid is the best for what Togekiss actually wants to do, with the following slashes and Leftovers as the only or at least primary item:
Nasty Plot
Air Slash
Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Fire Blast
Roost
aim
First of all, I believe that a spread of 248 HP/ 76 Def / 8 SpD / 176 Spe with a Timid nature is optimal on the Stallbreaker set. I think that it thrives the most on Bulky Offensive teams that allow it to use its natural bulk and amazing typing to take hits "other" Pokemon on those teams can't really take on. I believe Leftovers should be by far the primary slash for that reason as well. For example, with this spread and Leftovers, Togekiss always survives 2 Life Orb Latios Psyshocks as as well as 2 Jolly Mega Lopunny Returns without Stealth Rock. That is absolutely huge for offensive teams that really don't have many other options to take the two of them one; especially since you probably aren't running Clefable if you are running Togekiss. Now, some people might say "but as soon as Stealth Rock is up it can't counter them anymore". Well, that is only half true. Lopunny Fake Out/HJK and Latios Draco/EQ/HP Fire are still free switchins, and that's not really the point anyway; the point is that you wall them early game (since you match up exceedingly well against a lot of common Stealth Rock users, especially those that actually see use on teams with Lopunny/Latios), which allows you to build up some offensive pressure and hopefully prevent Lopunny and Latios from coming in safely ever again. I think that Lum Berry is a waste anyway; if I don't want to get crippled by status I'll just run Heal Bell on this set which is something gr8astard has been doing to some decent success from what I've heard, and in matchups against full stall I'd much rather rely on my ability to switch into Will-O-Wisp from Slowbro/Sableye/Charizard X/Quagsire. Hell, even getting Thunder Waved isn't the end of the world with Leftovers (since you should have either your own Thunder Wave or Heal Bell 90% of the time), unless they happen to have both Chansey and Unaware Clefable/Quagsire in conjunction with Thunder Wave, which doesn't really exist. Leftovers, in return, gives you so much more: It allows you to take on the threats I mentioned a little bit earlier (among others), it allows you to not get fucked over by Sand, and not get fucked over by burns as much. It also makes dealing with Mega Slowbro and CM Clefable a lot easier, 2 Pokemon that you take on pretty well. That said, I think the name "Stallbreaker" is whack for this anyway seeing how it predominantly wrecks Balance-ish squads instead of Stall-ish squads, but Leftovers + getting statused in some way that isn't Toxic is still a way better "Stallbreaker" than the set with Lum Berry, especially since that set makes actually beating balance squads a lot more annoying. The Special Attack EVs also seem unnecessary as the only scenario off the top of my head where it really makes a difference is Unaware Clefable; Bisharp takes like 46% minimum from uninvested Togekiss anyway meaning that, with Stealth Rock or 1 turn of Life Orb recoil, it's a goner with 1 flinch regardless of SAtk investment.
As for the slashes in the 3rd slot, I wholeheartedly think that Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Fire Blast makes for the best slashes in terms of usefulness. Aura Sphere sounds nice on paper, but the only thing that it really matters against is Heatran; Thunder Wave either lets you beat Tyranitar (Scarf aka the only set that really matters in this metagame), or cripple it for a teammate to take advantage of which, with an offensive team, isn't hard to do since you have lots of stuff that appreciates Tyranitar paralysed (think Gengar, Latios, LO Starmie, Thundurus-I, Landorus-I and even stuff like Raikou to some extent). Dazzling Gleam just seems so completely... useless. You do damage to Diancie or Thundurus but, on teams that those Pokemon are commonly seen on, especially with a team that features Togekiss (which is most likely a Bulky Offensive team of some kind), are you really going to get off the 2 hits against MDiancie/Thundurus to actually kill them? What about Mega Manectric? Raikou? The only thing that you will realistically get that hit off against (Rotom-W) loses to you 1 on 1 anyway and if it Volt Switches out to something that forces you out like Landorus or Gengar then Dazzling Gleam doesn't exactly solve that issue.. And before someone says that Dazzling Gleam beats unevolved Mega Diancie, that still loses to Protect variants and Thunder Wave on the switch already beats them because you are never OHKO'd by Diamond Storm and can fish for miss/full para with Roost and eventually kill it via Air Slash. Tyranitar, like I said, is pretty much always Scarfed in this metagame making Dazzling Gleam just as much of an inferior choice against it as against Diancie. Meanwhile, people really seem to underestimate Heal Bell's value on an offensive team; not only does it allow Togekiss to deal with status itself, but getting a "second life" for your burned Altaria/Gyarados, paralysed Charizard X, paralysed or burned Mega Metagross etc. is huge. Like, fucking enormous lol. There's no reason to only put it on the Defensive NP set when the teams that the Stallbreaker is often found on arguably make better use of it than Defensive NP's teammates ever would (although it's better for standalone sweeps on that one I suppose). Fire Blast gets instant damage against Ferrothorn (which is nice because you need a lot of flinches against Ferrothorn and it can actually hurt you), roasts Mega Scizor, kills unevolved Mega Metagross after a boost and allows you to beat one of the few defensive Pokemon that actually have a good shot to beat TWave Togekiss in Body Slam Jirachi. With Bronzong making a semi-comeback thanks to Landorus-I, Fire Blast becomes an even stronger option. You also snipe Excadrill on the switch for ~75%, which is enormous for offensive teams as well. Not to mention that you still get almost the same damage against Electric types that the obscure Dazzling Gleam was supposed to give you. Oh and it also happens to hit Magnezone. I think it's better than Aura Sphere because it has a lot more valid targets than Aura Sphere while also being a lot more practical than Dazzling Gleam in the sense that you can actually hit those Pokemon before they kill you; the Mega Metagross kill in particular is actually huge because it's such a difficult Pokemon to switch into, far more difficult than Choice Scarf Tyranitar, and it also kills you in one hit whereas Tyranitar only has a ~40% chance to win against Thunder Wave variants factoring in Sand, critical hits and misses (and only a 10%ish chance to escape without paralysis), whereas Metagross has an almost assured win and hurts way more Pokemon than Tyranitar to boot. It's not a fantastic option either way and I believe that Thunder Wave/Heal Bell are still way better, but it's usable on some teams.
Relevant Calcs:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 166-196 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 165-195 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Togekiss in Rain: 313-370 (83.9 - 99.1%) (huge calc for offensive teams that are troubled by rain)
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 301-355 (80.6 - 95.1%) (still a 50 50 chance after SR)
+1 4 SpA Mega Slowbro Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 157-186 (42 - 49.8%)
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 320-380 (85.7 - 101.8%) (87.5% chance to at least get off Thunder Wave, still a good chance to survive Sand afterwards too)
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 314-372 (84.1 - 99.7%) (I guess 16 Atk variants have a small chance to kill you, and Max Atk was always killing you anyway so yeah)
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Togekiss: 165-195 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (another huge one for these kinds of teams unless they have Venusaur as well)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 165-195 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Togekiss in Rain: 313-370 (83.9 - 99.1%) (huge calc for offensive teams that are troubled by rain)
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 301-355 (80.6 - 95.1%) (still a 50 50 chance after SR)
+1 4 SpA Mega Slowbro Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 157-186 (42 - 49.8%)
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 320-380 (85.7 - 101.8%) (87.5% chance to at least get off Thunder Wave, still a good chance to survive Sand afterwards too)
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Togekiss: 314-372 (84.1 - 99.7%) (I guess 16 Atk variants have a small chance to kill you, and Max Atk was always killing you anyway so yeah)
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Togekiss: 165-195 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (another huge one for these kinds of teams unless they have Venusaur as well)
Probably a lot more but I can't think of much else right now.
tl;dr 248 HP / 76 Def / 8 SpD / 176 Spe Timid is the best for what Togekiss actually wants to do, with the following slashes and Leftovers as the only or at least primary item:
Nasty Plot
Air Slash
Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Fire Blast
Roost
aim
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