np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

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UltiMario

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The individual strain that each of these wallbreakers apply is not in the level of landorus what so ever so Im not sure how you came upon assumption that kyuremb and chary is equal to landorus in regards to the teambuilding constraint. Landorus exceeds that and two generel checks is ok in theory but completely changes from a practical standpoint but then again these threads will never actually exemplify that so I guess it becomes an endless argument there. I wouldnt say that landorus is equal to the balance breakers you mentioned cause realistically theyre not for numerous flaws they have and its a false assumption when you take into account each of their traits in how they play in the meta.
What you've said here is straight up false. In terms of raw wallbreaking power, Cube is second to none in this tier. The amount of things it blasts far exceeds the ability Landorus has when confined for 4 moveslots.

The big advantage Lando has over the other big wallbreakers are speed, typing, and movepool. It has the capability to break way more threats than Zard Y and Cube, but not in a single moveset. The other 2 have pretty limited options, but those options are all they need, as those options smash through most of the game anyways. Preparing for those threats on balance is way more intuitive since they have fixed movepools, but in no way a smaller teambuilding constraint because of how damn effective they are. Lando-I's power is in mixing it up, and if you're packing the check that beats that particular Lando-I's movepool, the thing is way less scary than Cube and Zard-Y.

Checking 10-moveslot Lando-I might be harder than checking Cube or Zard-Y for balance, but not all of Lando-I's 4-slot sets are going to be able to balance break like they can. You might not be able to build around every set, but you can build around a good chunk of them and reduce the statistical threat of Lando by a large margin.
 

Freeroamer

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My interpretation of that post was more that Landorus is significantly harder to actually deal with compared to the other breakers. Kyurem-B is weak to Stealth Rock, vulnerable to Spikes(and I guess T spikes too but they're not often seen) and misses out on an important Speed tier in the base 100 benchmark. It's also got a very suspect defensive typing, weak to Fighting, Dragon and Fairy, 3 of the most common attacking types in the tier. I could go on with the other breakers, Manaphy needing to set up and having no way of boosting its speed vs Offense, Hera being slow and having opportunity cost in being a mega etc. but hopefully you get the point. Landorus is far from flawless, but the combination of all its positive traits in comparison with the flaws other breakers can suffer from certainly distinguishes itself as being in a class of its own at its role.
 
Okay I already did but here we go again:

Chansey, Latios, Latias, Cressilia, Gengar, Av Torn-T, Skarmory, and Sp Def Zapdos. Along with the numerous checks it has that I haven't listed. It can easily be working around and beaten.
Chansey, Latios, Latias, Cressilia, Gengar get beaten by knock off; Torn-T and spD Zapdos get KO'd by rock slide, and Skarm can't do good damage with its attacks.
 
Chansey, Latios, Latias, Cressilia, Gengar get beaten by knock off; Torn-T and spD Zapdos get KO'd by rock slide, and Skarm can't do good damage with its attacks.
Cressila is actually a good counter for landorous, in that it takes less than half from a knock off and can KO with ice beam. Skarmary dies to Focus Miss Blast. Another really good counter is Mandibuzz, which can 2hko landorous with foul play if there is rock and does not get 2hko by anything Landorous may possibly have. However it is important to keep rocks out of the field.
 
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Cressila is actually a good counter for landorous, in that it takes less than half from a knock off and can KO with ice beam. Skarmary dies to Focus Miss Blast. Another really good counter is Mandibuzz, which can 2hko landorous with foul play if there is rock and does not get 2hko by anything Landorous may possibly have. However it is important to keep rocks out of the field.
Yeah i can agree with that, even tho with the pressure lando-t can give it's hard to get the rocks of thefield in HO.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Chansey, Latios, Latias, Cressilia, Gengar get beaten by knock off; Torn-T and spD Zapdos get KO'd by rock slide, and Skarm can't do good damage with its attacks.
Worth noting that im pro-ban.

Torn-t outspeeds. Gengar outspeeds. The latis outspeed. skarm can whittle away while lando tries to ko with lol focus blast. Cresselia is not beaten by knock off.

All of lando's moves are easy to switch into in some capacity via immunities and resistances. Knock off is perhaps the only legitimately spammy niche move. It does not have god prediction. More often than not, it will be forced out.

If lando is running any of these more niche coverage moves, then its list of checks expands greatly.


You would be better suited to argue that these moves allow lando to support the team by luring these mons, because claiming "look, it beats every mon in the metagame ban" is a very poor argument.

This post is incredibly dumbed down: Even when lando is not 1hkoing with god predictions, it is still doing hefty damage throughout the match. But seriously... c'mon. Lando isnt a god. It probably isn't even the best poke in the metagame. It is hardly as broken as most of the other suspects, though this thread makes it seem like arceus has been romping around ou. It's funny, because these are things that we are all aware of since we play ou, but we still inflate its viability ten-fold in the np thread. Still banworthy, but very beatable by all playstyles bar full stall cm shenanigans (even then, gothitelle gives lando grief, and lots of things destroy passive full stall).
 
Well, there are many reasons why I think that Landorus should be banned:His incredible Trait, Sheer Force, in combo with life orb let it make consistent damages, its incredible moveset allows it to hardly touch everything but Blissey in this metagame. Most common switch-in such as Sdef Gliscor or AVtornadus are not even safe, considering Hp ice or Rock Slide variant. The access to moves like U-turn (very underrated move) or Knock Off gives it a good way to hit common Psychic checks (Latiwins overall) while giving it great momentum. Also 101 base power speed is very respectable in this tier, letting it outspeed offensive threats such as Gardevoir, and the Zard. It can also be used with modest nature and rock polish, which, after boosting its speed, make it almost impossible to be killed.In addition, if a Landorus with Calm Mind is played together with a pursuitter and a support to face Keldeo, it will be able to increase its Special Attack and Special Defense, which would make it a bit more defensive.only thing that makes it not worthy of ban is the fact that it can nicely hit stupid thunderwave/calm mind clefables
 
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Passive teams didn't just sprout up out of the woodwork, they've always had some presence on the ladder. The point is people who use that playstyle are gonna want lando gone if it benefits them.

The rest of your post is nonsense and not worth replying to.
My post nonsense? I provided calculations that proved that Landorus doesn't have the hardest time to Rock Polish because of its good natural bulk! Don't put your fingers in your ears and act like I didn't make a point. Read them. I've used RP Landorus a LOT and I know how it works and I never had the hard time people are describing setting it up BECAUSE of it's natural bulk being very decent (plus I ran HP on my build to take these hits better). That and your stupid good player argument goes both ways, so pls. What I'm saying is that the current ladder is more bulky and more passive because Landorus-I is gone and that doesn't restrict teambuilding as much but I can see your point (although that only goes so far, look at some of the antiban arguments on this thread), other breakers do still restrict teambuilding (but Landorus has a bigger impact because of what AM literally said on this page.) Honestly again, your post is strengthening my point because you're just not providing a counter argument (which you should) because you have nothing to counter that!
 
Worth noting that im pro-ban.

Torn-t outspeeds. Gengar outspeeds. The latis outspeed. skarm can whittle away while lando tries to ko with lol focus blast. Cresselia is not beaten by knock off.

All of lando's moves are easy to switch into in some capacity via immunities and resistances. Knock off is perhaps the only legitimately spammy niche move. It does not have god prediction. More often than not, it will be forced out.

If lando is running any of these more niche coverage moves, then its list of checks expands greatly.


You would be better suited to argue that these moves allow lando to support the team by luring these mons, because claiming "look, it beats every mon in the metagame ban" is a very poor argument.

This post is incredibly dumbed down: Even when lando is not 1hkoing with god predictions, it is still doing hefty damage throughout the match. But seriously... c'mon. Lando isnt a god. It probably isn't even the best poke in the metagame. It is hardly as broken as most of the other suspects, though this thread makes it seem like arceus has been romping around ou. It's funny, because these are things that we are all aware of since we play ou, but we still inflate its viability ten-fold in the np thread. Still banworthy, but very beatable by all playstyles bar full stall cm shenanigans (even then, gothitelle gives lando grief, and lots of things destroy passive full stall).
My defenition of a counter is a pokemon what you can switch in and beat 1v1. The guy said that all those mons were counters, but when he keeps switching them in (a.e. gengar on an earth power) and you predict right one time, they are gone. And besides that I haven't even said if I am pro-ban or against the ban. All I was trying to say was that those mons can't fearlessly switch in on Lando-T, what this guy was suggesting. Well sorry for the misunderstanding, I hope you'll understand me better now and don't find me that dumb ;_:
 


I think that landorus-i should be ban for these reasons:
-Lando-I has got greats offensive stats (125/115);
-Its unpredictability, which allows it to use mixed sets to get get rid of many of its common switch ins;
-It has got a great earthpower ( stab+lifeorb+sheer force, so it hasn't got the recoil from the orb);
-It hasn't got a true counter;
-It has got a good coverage that don't allow safe switch ins;

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 256-302 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 257-303 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Landorus can outspeed many other pokemon. It can also be used with modest nature and rock polish, which, after boosting its speed, make it almost impossible to be killed.

-In addition, if a Landorus with Calm Mind is played together with a pursuitter and a support to face Keldeo, it will be able to increase its Special Attack and Special Defense, which would make it a bit more defensive.
 
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Merritt

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Another really good counter is Mandibuzz, which can 2hko landorous with foul play if there is rock and does not get 2hko by anything Landorous may possibly have. However it is important to keep rocks out of the field.
Much as I like Mandibuzz's bulk, it's not a counter to the sets which don't run a physical coverage move (aka Timid/Modest sets) since that puts it into the really unlikely 2HKO range.

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 121-144 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In return Landorus gets to hit it really hard in the face with Focus Blast or, hell, even Sludge Wave. Both 3HKO without rocks (almost always in the case of Sludge Wave) and Focus Blast always gets to 2HKO with them. Sludge Wave even has a higher chance to 2HKO after rocks than Foul Play on 0- Lando after rocks.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 151-178 (35.6 - 42%) -- 88.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 151-178 (35.6 - 42%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 190-224 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (3HKO without Stealth Rock after Leftovers recovery)

Of course this doesn't even take into account Modest/Rash calcs. If Landorus is running 252+ it has a more than 50% chance to 2HKO (without rocks) with Focus Blast and has a really high chance to 2HKO after rocks with Sludge Wave.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 207-244 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 165-195 (39 - 46%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Incidentally, this means that Mandibuzz can't even check Landorus if rocks are up and the Landorus user is reasonably lucky. Since 252 SpA Focus Blast 2HKOs after rocks (and Lando damn well better be outspeeding Mandi) Lando just kills Mandibuzz before it gets the kill.

I'm actually going to revise my position and say that Mandibuzz, without a specialized EV spread, cannot counter Landorus. Since Sludge Wave alone, from a neutral nature, has an over 85% chance to 3HKO without rocks Landorus is incredibly likely to kill Mandibuzz before it can return the favor. Sorry man.

e: Sunding lol what
 
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brittney♥kitty

Banned deucer.
My post nonsense? I provided calculations that proved that Landorus doesn't have the hardest time to Rock Polish because of its good natural bulk! Don't put your fingers in your ears and act like I didn't make a point. Read them. I've used RP Landorus a LOT and I know how it works and I never had the hard time people are describing setting it up BECAUSE of it's natural bulk being very decent (plus I ran HP on my build to take these hits better). That and your stupid good player argument goes both ways, so pls. What I'm saying is that the current ladder is more bulky and more passive because Landorus-I is gone and that doesn't restrict teambuilding as much but I can see your point (although that only goes so far, look at some of the antiban arguments on this thread), other breakers do still restrict teambuilding (but Landorus has a bigger impact because of what AM literally said on this page.) Honestly again, your post is strengthening my point because you're just not providing a counter argument (which you should) because you have nothing to counter that!
What point did you make? That priority moves can't OHKO a mon? Like whoaoaaaaaoa great point dude, you got me, can't counter that.

My original point was that a good HO player isn't gonna let lando get to +2 at 100% hp. It just dosn't happen.

AMs post was just comparing lando to other breakers like yard and kyub, has nothing to do with my original post about how well lando does against offense.
 
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 376-442 (88.8 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

After 3 calm minds from Landorus is problematic, however mandibuzz is a good check but not a counter
 

p2

Banned deucer.
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 376-442 (88.8 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

After 3 calm minds from Landorus is problematic, however mandibuzz is a good check but not a counter
Okay, but be reasonable, how is Landorus EVER getting to +3 with Calm Mind? Stall teams force it out with Cresselia, it doesn't have the turns to set up to +3 against Offense and Balance sure as hell won't let it set up that much
 
I like bludz's point that not only is landorus incredibly difficult to switch into since its moveset essentially chooses its counters, but it also has very respectable bulk for an offensive mon, gets the boost from life orb without any recoil for most attacks, and is in general very difficult to take down. All the mons he mentioned are also very hard to counter, but again, they get worn down much faster than Lando-I in practice. He also makes a good point that the suspect test doesn't necessarily accurately represent how the metagame will evolve with lando gone. Personally, although balance still has a lot of threats to cover, I find it much more viable since Lando can't come in and smash builds that can take on every other threat in a somewhat reliable way.
 
My post nonsense? I provided calculations that proved that Landorus doesn't have the hardest time to Rock Polish because of its good natural bulk! Don't put your fingers in your ears and act like I didn't make a point. Read them. I've used RP Landorus a LOT and I know how it works and I never had the hard time people are describing setting it up BECAUSE of it's natural bulk being very decent (plus I ran HP on my build to take these hits better). That and your stupid good player argument goes both ways, so pls. What I'm saying is that the current ladder is more bulky and more passive because Landorus-I is gone and that doesn't restrict teambuilding as much but I can see your point (although that only goes so far, look at some of the antiban arguments on this thread), other breakers do still restrict teambuilding (but Landorus has a bigger impact because of what AM literally said on this page.) Honestly again, your post is strengthening my point because you're just not providing a counter argument (which you should) because you have nothing to counter that!
You've missed a pretty important point with your calculations though. Actually its 2 points. 1. Lando has to get in somehow. 2. He has to set up Rock Polish and THEN he needs to have enough life left to live priority hits. GL pulling that off against a decent offensive team. Basicly the only chance to pull of a RP sweep from my experience is hoping that the opponent is stupid enough to waste his prio user earlier in the game. The chances that you get Lando in, Rock polish up and still have enough life left to live prio hits should be close to zero, hp investment or not. Even against well build balance teams thats going to be difficult, against offense its almost impossible.
 
You've missed a pretty important point with your calculations though. Actually its 2 points. 1. Lando has to get in somehow. 2. He has to set up Rock Polish and THEN he needs to have enough life left to live priority hits. GL pulling that off against a decent offensive team. Basicly the only chance to pull of a RP sweep from my experience is hoping that the opponent is stupid enough to waste his prio user earlier in the game. The chances that you get Lando in, Rock polish up and still have enough life left to live prio hits should be close to zero, hp investment or not. Even against well build balance teams thats going to be difficult, against offense its almost impossible.
By the logic of playing against HO and not wanting chip damage it should be getting in on a free switch and being able to live a hit, I showed the calcs because they show that it can live most priority hits pretty well even though IF YOU BOTHER SETTING IT UP THEY SHOULD BE GONE. I pointed that out in my original post. But if it ever does come to that (which it shouldn't in the hands of a competent player) it can survive those hits and it can then plow through the rest of the team.
 
And I'm trying to say that it cannot find the time to boost its special attack so much. Unless Cresselia is severly weakened, it's not going to go much further than +1 against Stall teams and Offense puts too much pressure for it to go further than +1, sometimes offenses pressures it so that it cannot boost at all and Balance teams won't sit there and watch it boost.
You would be amazed at the times Landorus I forces people to think a double switch will happen, specially if you have a pursuit trapper, this bought me enough time to CM on competent players that had been otherwise able to make a good play by either gaining momentum on the double switch and force me out, or set up on a pursuit user reliably. However in the end one gets a +1 Lando I with momentum and high chances of going +2 or your enemy gave you the win on what was otherwise a good call for him, prediction goes both ways however Lando I buys enough momentum to guarantee it will get it's job done on several scenarios.
 
Well... Lando I... I really should do a page-long thing about it so here goes!

But first...

insert
witty and stupid one-liner here

wait.. that was a one line too wasn't it... never mind.

Ban

Reasons:

Setting Up:

Lando I is a big setting up Pokemon and it knows it. With moves like rock-polish, clam mind and an amazing speed stat to boot, It is capable to hurt after setting up. Letting it come in on Pokemon like Gothitelle to bulk all its hits with calm mind and hurt back and hard. Another big thing Lando can hit after +1 in SpDef and SpAtk is physically defensive Rotom Wash which makes it hard to come in as the pivot it's supposed to be, only coming in on a free switch. Also, with full speed investment and timid, +2 lando can outspeed the whole entire metagame along with most scarfers. Rock Polish Lando can also work well as a lead, especially if Diance makes an appearance first as earth power has the ability to OHKO mega Diance and normal Diance doesn't outspeed Lando I. All of this wrapped together makes Lando I a very big threat when setting up, letting it rip through whole teams who aren't prepared for it.

Unpredictability:

Lando I has so many unpredictable sets its unbelevable. Its always hard as Lando I normally gets to kill one pokemon or seriously cripple it before you realise what set it's running. This combined with thae fact that it is vertually impossible to counter all sets if you don't run a dedicated counter for it like SpDef Zapdos. This can ruin team in the upper versiokns of the ladder thanks to every pokemon counteing. You can't go in there with a Pokemon that you have designed to sack off. This ultimately leads to a role taken away rom the team which makes Lando I a VERY broken Pokemon.

Typing:

This Ground-Flying typing is no stranger to OU, having a very good physical wall in the form of gliscor. However this typing makes Lando I an extreeemly hard pokemon to check. This is stressed the most with its ability to block volt-switch and threaten magnezone making this a very broken partner to Scizor and Skarmory which (especially in Scizor's case) makes them a very broken pokemon in their own right.

Do Not Ban

Reasons:

Low Speed For The Tier

Lando may be a speedy BAMF but at the end of the day, it struggles to keep up with the speed tier of OU so you can just not give it a chance to set up thanks to pokemon like Mega Lopunny who utilities Ice Punch very well to hit pokemon like GLiscor, hippowdon and the before-mentioned Landorus Incarnate. Also most of its checks can come in on a slow U-turn and slam with a wall-breaking move or just a good move like an Ice type move. As you can only use one set and the main sets are much more common, you also have a trough idea of what Lando I is going to pull out next, making this a very real game of predictions which can be won, you've just got to rub your team the right way.

Priority

This thing is my main argument to keep Lando I in the tier. Thanks to a combination of typing and physical/special splits most of the priority moves are either neutral or super effective like Ice Shard or Aqua Jet. Also, adding on with this Lando I does not get protection with calm-mind thanks to most priority moves bar one being special (vacuum wave) and Pokemon like Azumarill can hold assault vest which lets him come in witha lot more bulk giving it more staying power. Alsong witht that, Lando I is extremely easy to revenge-kill with ice shard and if you predict well enough you can come in without losing any pokemon.

Verdict

Do Not Flame Ban

Lando I is a problem, granted, but ts a very curable problem and it can even check itself in most cases. You have just got to see it coming and I suppose its a lot like the song. Lando i is indeed a genie in a bottle, all you have to do to get rid of it is rub it the right way.
 
What you've said here is straight up false. In terms of raw wallbreaking power, Cube is second to none in this tier. The amount of things it blasts far exceeds the ability Landorus has when confined for 4 moveslots.

The big advantage Lando has over the other big wallbreakers are speed, typing, and movepool. It has the capability to break way more threats than Zard Y and Cube, but not in a single moveset. The other 2 have pretty limited options, but those options are all they need, as those options smash through most of the game anyways. Preparing for those threats on balance is way more intuitive since they have fixed movepools, but in no way a smaller teambuilding constraint because of how damn effective they are. Lando-I's power is in mixing it up, and if you're packing the check that beats that particular Lando-I's movepool, the thing is way less scary than Cube and Zard-Y.

Checking 10-moveslot Lando-I might be harder than checking Cube or Zard-Y for balance, but not all of Lando-I's 4-slot sets are going to be able to balance break like they can. You might not be able to build around every set, but you can build around a good chunk of them and reduce the statistical threat of Lando by a large margin.
The thing is most wall breakers mentioned are megas that in itself is advantage of Lando-I over them, in so much that he has access to his immediate stats and typing whereas the rest need a turn to do so that leaves them vulnerable. Manaphy is in the same boat to a degree in needing to set up. Aside that the next best competition is Kyu-B which aside from the advantages you noted you have to consider longevity not only to SR weakness but recoil and items -- Kyu-B usually wants to carry LO for wall breaking or needs scarf to potentially screw over speedier threats and clean up. Lando has both options available to him with far less opportunity cost, LO does not cause him damage and he has RP if he needs to further boost his speed while having the freedom to switch moves.
 

blunder

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like most, i think that landorus-i is definitely broken and removing it from ou would only benefit the current meta. the only viable counter to it is mega latias which can't be thrown one very team while also being passive and coming with its own group of problems. While it does have access to boosting moves like calm mind and rock polish to make it hard for either offense or stall to take it on, the main thing that solidifies it as the best pokemon in ou is its 4 attack set. landorus not only comes with insane coverage, but it has no drawbacks from the moves it uses. On top of that, it sits at a good enough speed tier to punish most balance teams and doesn't mind most residuals like burn or toxic since it comes in, crushes something, and then switches out on the lati/azu/keldeo that then comes to revenge kill it. on top of this, it plagues teambuilding ridiculously since it has so few things to take it on defensively. It forces balance to have to run torn-t, mega lati, or some sort of soft check, while still keeping an overall solid team. for these reasons, i think landorus really deserves a ban.
 

MZ

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I think this whole offense thing is rather misleading. It's better against offense than breakers like modest zard y and Kube but it's not great. There are far more effective HO killers, landorus is just less of a dead weight than pretty much every other good stall breaker. We're still going to ban it (if we do) for its prowess vs BO or balance, not hyper offense teams with 5 faster mons and torn-T +Latios to possibly switch in if need be.

Edit: to clarify, it's good that it's better than other breakers vs offense. That's a solid pro ban argument. But ofc it's not gonna ez 6-0 offense with rock polish and stating otherwise would be silly. What anti-ban has to prove here is that Landorus is actually shitty vs offense and never really helps its team to refute this argument
 
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Much as I like Mandibuzz's bulk, it's not a counter to the sets which don't run a physical coverage move (aka Timid/Modest sets) since that puts it into the really unlikely 2HKO range.

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 121-144 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In return Landorus gets to hit it really hard in the face with Focus Blast or, hell, even Sludge Wave. Both 3HKO without rocks (almost always in the case of Sludge Wave) and Focus Blast always gets to 2HKO with them. Sludge Wave even has a higher chance to 2HKO after rocks than Foul Play on 0- Lando after rocks.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 151-178 (35.6 - 42%) -- 88.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 151-178 (35.6 - 42%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 190-224 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (3HKO without Stealth Rock after Leftovers recovery)

Of course this doesn't even take into account Modest/Rash calcs. If Landorus is running 252+ it has a more than 50% chance to 2HKO (without rocks) with Focus Blast and has a really high chance to 2HKO after rocks with Sludge Wave.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 207-244 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 165-195 (39 - 46%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Incidentally, this means that Mandibuzz can't even check Landorus if rocks are up and the Landorus user is reasonably lucky. Since 252 SpA Focus Blast 2HKOs after rocks (and Lando damn well better be outspeeding Mandi) Lando just kills Mandibuzz before it gets the kill.

I'm actually going to revise my position and say that Mandibuzz, without a specialized EV spread, cannot counter Landorus. Since Sludge Wave alone, from a neutral nature, has an over 85% chance to 3HKO without rocks Landorus is incredibly likely to kill Mandibuzz before it can return the favor. Sorry man.

e: Sunding lol what
I honestly haven't seen much modest landorous on the ladder before so I did not consider them.

Without rock, I would say mandibuzz is a pretty nice counter for timid landorous in that it can roost back any damage from sludge wave and use foul play once it heal back to full. For focus blast..... Hitting two in a row is like a miracle. Mandibuzz just have to spam roost until focus blast run out or the eventual miss, and use foul play and deal a huge chunk.



I do, however, agree that modest landorous break through mandibuzz easil with sludge wave and focus blast and that with rocks on, mandibuzz struggle against timid landorous with focus blast. I am unsure the popularity of focus blast on modest landorous, though.


On my phone, read through your thread in a rush, please excuse me if I missed any points and grammar.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I honestly haven't seen much modest landorous on the ladder before so I did not consider them.

Without rock, I would say mandibuzz is a pretty nice counter for timid landorous in that it can roost back any damage from sludge wave and use foul play once it heal back to full. For focus blast..... Hitting two in a row is like a miracle. Mandibuzz just have to spam roost until focus blast run out or the eventual miss, and use foul play and deal a huge chunk.



I do, however, agree that modest landorous break through mandibuzz easil with sludge wave and focus blast and that with rocks on, mandibuzz struggle against timid landorous with focus blast. I am unsure the popularity of focus blast on modest landorous, though.


On my phone, read through your thread in a rush, please excuse me if I missed any points and grammar.
Modest is run by Rock Polish sets for extra power, as you outspeed the entire meta after a boost anyway.

Mandibuzz can't counter because Rock Slide is a common coverage move, plus Timid Focus Blast 2HKOs easily after Rocks so it's a shaky check. Also a 49% chance to hit both Focus Blasts isn't really a "miracle," and if you're relying on miss hax to beat it there's probably an issue here.
 
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